Refuting Objections to the Church Ordaining Women (Ben Wayman)

[@Seedbed]

Watch a commentator explain the meaning of 1 Timothy 2 on women in church: kzbin.info/www/bejne/qqTcgp-XeJWVqrs

[@acortes7771]

Seedbed, a couple of very interesting points made. The verse in Galatians and the fact that Jesus and the twelve were all Jews. One can create a very compelling case either for or against women ordination to the Presbyterate. As far as the Diaconate is concerned I don't see any issue, especially since Phoebe was a Deacon and is referred to as such in the Scriptures. The case for the Presbyterate is more complicated. Jesus made a pretty strong statement by only choosing men. Especially, since Jesus in His day was considered a rebel and an outlaw. I don't thing He would've had no qualms in choosing a woman, since He didn't abide by the conventions of His day. It is very revealing that He in fact didn't choose a woman for that role. It's also very revealing that Paul later speaks of women's role being different then man's. I don't see an issue with women having authority or oversight over men in a secular capacity, especially in a lay capacity that would be above the clergy. This would help with transparency in the Church.

[@saved6655]

God has intentional order for his church. Head coverings Corinth was a seaport town and was a messed up place 1 cor 5 man sleeping with step mother 1 cor 6 there suing each other 1 cor 7 they are getting divorced 1 cor 8 there spending time with things offered to demons and idols 1 cor 11 they are getting drunk at communion Now that was enough problems here is where head coverings come into play, off the coast of Corinth was a island called lesbos (where we get the word lesbians). This is where lesbians were first classified, as lesbianism. People were coming to the church of Corinth from that island and were getting saved. And these women were coming there that were into lesbianism, they wanted to play a role as men and they would shave there head. These women would literally wrestle and kill wild boars with there bare hands, slit there throats with a knife. 1 Corinthians 11:1-2 Be imitators of me, just as I also am of Christ. Now I praise you because you remember me in everything and hold firmly to the traditions, just as I delivered them to you. So this is obviously not just a cultural thing back then it goes for everyone in Christ, its a order to follow. He’s saying you are to carry on what I taught you. He says in Romans and 1 Thessalonians if you don’t keep these orders as I taught you are to be kicked out of the church. Vs 3 But I want you to understand that Christ is the head of every man, and the man is the head of a woman, and God is the head of Christ. He starts off saying over the man is Christ, and the head of woman is man. What he is saying is we have roles. So the big question is, dose Christ boss us around and discriminate against us, is he harsh, cruel and demanding? So this has nothing to do with bossing around a woman. This is not I’m the boss and you are not, this is a higher archy of role. Vs 4-5 Every man who has something on his head while praying or prophesying disgraces his head. But every woman who has her head uncovered while praying or prophesying disgraces her head, for she is one and the same as the woman whose head is shaved. What head are we talking about there? Remember the head of the man is Christ, the head of the woman is man. It says, But every woman who has her head uncovered while praying or prophesying disgraces her head, for she is one and the same as the woman whose head is shaved. Where did the head shaving come from? It was from the women of lesbos, there was women in that church that at one point was into the culture out on that island. Because they wanted to draw attention to there selves in a liberated way, in a masculine manner. So shaved head women who were Amazonian wild boar killers were now going to this Church and were saved at this point but still packing there traditions and shaving there head. Paul is saying don’t go back to your old ways. Vs 7-8 For a man ought not to have his head covered, since he is the image and glory of God; but the woman is the glory of man. For man does not originate from woman, but woman from man; So from headship to created order. Even tho every man from the garden on has came from a woman’s womb. But man did not originate from woman. Look what it says, For man does not originate from woman, and you see God never calls us people he calls us man kind. This is deliberate he is preserving the created order. Genesis ch 1 and ch 2 it says God created man, and from man he created woman (the rib). So this is the created order, God is always trying to press. Vs 10 Therefore the woman ought to have a symbol of authority on her head, because of the angels. Angels witnessed creation and God is head over the angels. The question is should women wear something over there head in church? Let’s keep reading Vs 11 However, in the Lord, neither is woman independent of man, nor is man independent of woman. So here is spiritual equality, this is also said in Galatians 3:28 there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. Vs 12 For as the woman originates from the man, so also the man has his birth through the woman; and all things originate from God. So even though the created order is man is first yet he is saying we are dependent on each other, It is mutual. Vs 13 Judge for yourselves: is it proper for a woman to pray to God with her head uncovered? Basically head is a analogy of being under authority. And if we look back to when we first begin woman’s covering is man. Vs 3 said Christ is the head of man and man is the head of woman. So if we look at this in a husband and wife outlook who is supposed to be the cover? What he is saying is, is it proper for a woman to pray to God with her head uncovered? He’s saying is it proper for her to not acknowledge the authority that she is supposed to be under Vs 14-17 Does not even nature itself teach you that if a man has long hair, it is a dishonor to him, but if a woman has long hair, it is a glory to her? For her hair is given to her for a covering. But if one is inclined to be contentious, we have no other practice, nor have the churches of God. Does not even nature itself teach you that if a man has long hair. He’s saying, if a man dose the opposite of what he is supposed to do, be feminine, not be a leader, It is a dishonor to him. but if a woman has long hair, it is a glory to her? If she is under the man it is a glorious thing towards her. For her hair is given to her for a covering. Here’s the covering word. Dose that mean if a woman has a a-line she has to wear a hat? No it has to do with head ship, being under your husband. But if one is inclined to be contentious, we have no other practice, nor have the churches of God. If you want to fight this there is no other practice, no other way. Nor have the churches of God. It’s not the order of the church. It’s not how God has set it up. Paul is saying if you don’t agree with me your out. Long hair stands for lady like, not specifically having your hair down to the floor. It’s a head ship a role as a women that God setup. Our culture opposes this horribly. They have found out how to break down a nation and it is too deconstruct a Godly family setting, Gods created order. And when we get it in our mind that this isn’t fair, or I don’t like this, or I don’t have too, we are accepting the cultural norms that satan has setup, and turning away from God. This is where feminism, equality acts, gay rights, ext.... God dose not want that, God wants men to be men and women to be women. As Gods created order. 1 Corinthians 14:27 If anyone speaks in a tongue, it should be by two or at the most three, and each in turn, and one must interpret; but if there is no interpreter, he must keep silent in the church; and let him speak to himself and to God. 1 Corinthians 14:32-35 This is supposed to be orderly Vs 32-33 and the spirits of prophets are subject to prophets; for God is not a God of confusion but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints. God is not a God of confusion Vs 34 The women are to keep silent in the churches; for they are not permitted to speak, but are to subject themselves, just as the Law also says. Dose that mean don’t talk at all? Keep reading, for they are not permitted to speak, but are to subject themselves, just as the Law also says. Vs 35 If they desire to learn anything, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is improper for a woman to speak in church. This is back to the idea of headship, there is gender specific roles for Gods ordained order. God in his word says this is my plan, you have gender specific roles, that’s is that the husband is supposed to be a man and he is supposed to be the leader. The wife is supposed to be a woman and she is to be one who follows her husband, like Christ leads the church and the church she is a part of. She is not supposed to say I’m inferior to him or he is more godly or better than her in any way. No, she is saying I have a gender specific role. God says I have gender specific roles and orders of submission. So basically 1 Corinthians 14 reinforces this.

[@saved6655]

1 Timothy 2 Paul is writing a letter to Timothy who is a pastor of the largest church in that day. The church of emphasis. This was the most influential church of its day. 1 Timothy 2:8-9 Therefore I want the men in every place to pray, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and dissension. Women Instructed Likewise, I want women to adorn themselves with proper clothing, modestly and discreetly, not with braided hair and gold or pearls or costly garments, This is saying you must not do these kind of things in a way that it offends. There is something special when we all come together. And when men have to stare the other direction because what there wearing is so immodest and they are trying to have a pure mind for worshiping, all’s your doing is disruptIng the work of God. This verse is saying you should not dress like that. Vs10-11 but rather by means of good works, as is proper for women making a claim to godliness. A woman must quietly receive instruction with entire submissiveness. These epistles to Timothy and Titus are the corner stone for preaching and this is supposed to be to all churches from there on out. So it’s not just a cultural thing it was to the biggest church of its day as well as Corinth. And we have the same principals, the role of men and women, the women here is submitting to the headship of a man and the man is leading the church. These are God ordained roles. Because the way he made us, if we line up with these roles because it is Gods plan it will be smooth and work the way it was created to. So if a women wants to question things in church she needs to ask her husband or els she is dishonoring her head to her husband. And it’s not reflecting the order of Christ. Vs 12 But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet. Why is Paul saying this is it just some cultural thing for back then? Vs 13 For it was Adam who was first created, and then Eve. He’s saying no this is based on Gods created order. He’s saying this has to do with what God planned from the beginning . So God created man in the image of God, man is representative of God then male and female within that representation have gender specific orders that reflect Gods authority. Adam first then Eve this is created order. Then Paul says And it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression. If we didn’t have that verse we wouldn’t know something, and Adam chose to stick with her at the cost of sinning against God. That’s how much that one made from him meant to him. He wasn’t deceived, he didn’t think that the promises of the serpent would give him anything, he had everything he wanted in his relationship with God. He wasn’t deceived, he willfully chose to go into transgression with eve. Eve was deceived, this is why God says in his order for the church he wants this to reflect the gender specific roles. And the gender specific roles are that man alone are to be the elders and the pastors. Why? Because of created order man was created first then Eve because Adam was not deceived but the woman was and that’s why they fell into transgression, then I’m so glad for verse 15 But women will be preserved through the bearing of children if they continue in faith and love and sanctity with self-restraint. This verse shows women are not 2nd place. He’s saying women become the mothers of the pastors and elders. She becomes the person that more than anyone els influences these men to be pastors and elders this is why God teaches that women should be at the home taking care of the children, because those men that they are growing up will one day be leading a woman and that mother is there biggest influence besides God

[@DaleSmith-gx2sy]

..."we must keep in mind, is that scripture should not be used in the argument." That last statement disqualifies any assumption about Ordaining Women. To the contrary, scripture must be the final rule of arbitration when I comes to rightly dividing the Word of God, 1Tim 4:16.

[@AlexKnightland]

WOW, really? This is not an issue to turn to scripture for an answer. ABSOLUTELY WRONG. You are correct in that this is not a women’s issue, and you are correct precisely because it is a scriptural issue, which you then try to make your point from scripture. You simply can't have it both ways. If it is at the “heart of the gospel,” how is it then not a scriptural issue. Sorry, I really can't follow this logic.

[@jvlp2046]

Let the Bible speak, and let GOD's WILL be DONE... Amen

[@kingsamuelofficial]

My man went to the Catholic Church for validation…I know the Catholic Church doesn’t have loads that comes from the actual bible, list of tradition and mysticism.

[@johnpaulfrias233]

Catholic church supports his theology as well. Vote came from human knowledge not divine.

[@loganbaumstark8950]

😂😂😅 Sheesh. Notice there is no exegesis of the text, just ways of “handling these passages”

[@toddberner9198]

@king samuel.....the roman church has distorted that only men get to be pastors AND that the pastoral office is in charge of the church..not so..God is.

[@hesedagape6122]

Catholic Church as the oldest Western tradition has retained things from the Early Church. They do not forbid female Apostles, Presbyters and Deacons. They have them. You know them as Abbesses (Apostles), Nuns (Presbyters) and Sisters (Deacons). They are simply forbidden Ordination meaning they cannot perform Sacraments (Baptism, Eucharist, Confirmation, Marriage, Confession, Ordination, Anointing of the Sick. This ban has been in place since 642 AD when the Council of Laodicea was held

[@kingsamuelofficial]

@@hesedagape6122 mate your church is a farce. An absolute cesspool of filth. You have more in common with every pagan religion of the world than the law and the prophets. Deception is the way of your church and abuse of every good principle. The audacity of calling yourself the Mother church and the prop the vicar of Christ. Or professing they have the right to change the Sabbath. A commandment instituted at creation. The wars and genocides funded. Those nuns that have still birthed so many children raped by cardinals, bishops and monks. The choir boys r*ped incessantly to this day. Get out of here. That church is Babylon. The house of EVERY unclean bird. Wicked and her judgement is coming. COME OUT OF HER.

[@jamie9236]

This is an issue that needs no debate, thou shalt not kill, that’s plain, it needs no debate, Paul who was the apostle to the gentle church I might add says plainly without no need to debate that it’s not permitted for women to speak in the church, in 1st Timothy 2:11 that same apostle to the gentile church says Let the women learn in silence with all subjection. Verse 12 But I suffer(to let,allow,permit or give leave) NOT a woman to teach or to usurp authority over the man,but to be in silence... this is not a hate issue or a gospel issue.. it’s the word of God.... Now in Galatians 3:26-29, so many people misplace this scripture, Paul was speaking about male and female being HEIRS to the kingdom... in 1 Corinthians 14 and 1 Timothy 2 he is speaking on CHURCH ORDER....And as far as the priest hood, Paul said as also saith the law.... the priest hood was given to Aaron sons not his daughters.

[@Maxandshe]

Wrong!!!

[@Kay-br7by]

@@Maxandshe 😆

[@byrondickens]

When you don't even know basic facts like that the pastoral epistles we're not written by Paul but forged by an imposter after his death, then the rest of your misogynistic babbling can be safely disregarded.

[@glendajohnson7124]

Do your women wear head coverings?? Do you all stay single if your spouse commits adultery and you divorce them? So many of you forget so many new testament women led and co-led church bodies and taught.

[@glendajohnson7124]

@American_Fugitive you're a liar to infer it's just women ordaining same sex marriages and installing homosexuals as pastors. A liar. But one thing that is NOT a lie...it is and has been primarily the MEN pastors/leaders who have molested and raped girls and boys FOR CENTURIES. THIS is the dirty sexual sin the religious boys club pushes under the rug while beating their hairy chests pointing their fingers at homosexuals. 700 incidents uncovered in the Southern Baptist Church alone just a couple years ago. Since they did their own investigation you can bet there were more. The bible cites both homosexuality and adultery as abominations. Reconcile that then get back to me.

[@robwagnon6578]

What do you mean scripture should not be used in the argument I don't get it Scripture is our basis for all the things we allow and the things we do not allow.

[@ArrowheadMapping6767]

Many also use the creeds, traditions and councils done by the church, and even then women can't be allowed😂. So he doesn't use scripture or tradition, the only two ways to know what is right and wrong?

[@armmkm]

Deborah was a Judge of Israel. She ruled over men including g her own general Barrack. Before battle he was told the victory was assured. Yet, he refused to go without Deborah at his side. Therefore, she went with him but told him the victory would be in a woman’s hands. And so it was, Sisera got the point at the hands of a woman. Ouch! Phoebe was entrusted to deliver a letter to a church. She was a deaconess who had a house church that met at her own house in Cenchrea. Evangelist Mary, mother of Christ, at Cana said to the servants, “Whatever He says, just do it!” Good advice-whether given by a woman or a man, in regard to following Our Lord and Savior. Mary Magdalene, was the first to see the risen Christ! Should she not have proclaimed the truth? Obviously, she was chosen to be a witness to the resurrection and then proclaim that truth! Paul’s advice on women at Corinth; was it descriptive of a particular church where there was a strong pagan female cult where women shaved their heads and wielded power over men? OR was it normative for all the churches. If so, why are women to cover their head when praying or prophesying in church? The Early Church was all Jewish. When Paul arrives at Philippi there is no synagogue there. Recall ten (10) men are needed to form a synagogue. Evidently, Philippi did not have ten Jewish men so inclined. Notice Paul meets Jewish women who are worshipping at a riverside; that is, living waters. Mikvehs or baptisms were conducted in “living waters.” If there is no man to preach, what prohibits a woman from sharing the Gospel? Are we not ALL one in Christ? Are we not all spiritual descendants of Abraham? The Greek word “adelphoi” means “brothers AND sisters,” does it not? How many times does Paul employ the word “adelphoi” in his epistles?

[@nicksanders9148]

you are wise, i see, wish i could meet more christ lovers like you, feel alone out here in the world with no others like me

[@armmkm]

Nick, the Church Triumphant is a spiritual unity. You are NEVER alone. See we met here on this forum. Be blessed as you are “in Christ!”

[@charlesgugins381]

And what does it say about the book of Judges, they did what was right in their own mind. That means they weren't necessarily following the bible so that does not represent any proof.

[@elibennett6168]

@@nicksanders9148 God's people are everywhere.

[@elibennett6168]

@@charlesgugins381 Out of Tony's whole list, this is all you have to say? What do you mean it does not represent proof? The condition of Israel is exactly why Deborah was needed - they cried out to God in their oppression and he empowered Deborah to help them. All you have proven is she was more righteous than many men of her time.

[@sequoia689]

Thanks for this. I liked how Dr. Witherington III treated the topic. Ill listen to his sermon for ten times until it is locked into my memory. Even before coming across this and Ben's video, I was never a proponent of "women have no place in the pulpit" view.

[@amymel293]

I would propose that the underlying issue is perhaps several layers deeper than the question “should women be ordained as pastors/overseers”. As far as I’ve researched, 21 different Greek and Hebrew words were rendered “ordain” in the original KJV translation which has dramatically influenced the “clergy” and “lay person” or “leader” and “passive member” mentality (as opposed to the biblical priesthood of all believers doctrine) that now permeates the church. I think the deeper question is “is our current modern version of the pastoral office actually biblical and what Jesus and the apostles described and envisioned? Or have we built a robust hierarchical church structure that renders most of the body passive and only a few members bearing most of the ministry roles, that in fact is not envisioned or laid out by Christ and the pattern of the early church?” A profound question I faced several years ago was “wait, what if Jesus REALLY meant ‘the greatest among you will be your servant?” I believe he was serious. Our current structure may be well intended, there are SO many loving, gospel centered, God fearing leaders... yet our churches more closely resemble business corporations than the family of God in many aspects. My own heart cries out “Jesus what do really think of all this scuffling and clambering after roles of power and leadership in the church?” I know my brothers and sisters usually don’t mean it to be, I love you all and want to think the best if your intentions. But I still see a lot of grappling for position, much like the twelve lobbying for their own positions in the Kingdom when Jesus corrected them. As the saying goes “The Greeks heard the gospel and turned it into a philosophy. The Romans heard it and turned it into a government, the Europeans heard it and turned it into a culture! And the Americans heard it and turned it into a business.” Anyway, throwing this question out there with a sincere and loving heart, seeking unity and truth. I love you all, my brothers and sisters, and care deeply about what Jesus is actually

[@joel_i_was]

The office of Pastor is not scriptural. Church is to be ruled by elders and overseers. There is no one-man ministry in New Testament Pattern. One Church is supposed to have many pastors, as there is need. Apostles, Pastors and Prophets and Evangelists and Teachers are gifts to the Church for the building up of the church members so they can do these ministries for themselves and propagate and replicate.

[@erniegamboa5609]

Well said sister in Christ!

[@tamikascales888]

This!!

[@Videx19]

Beautifully said. I feel at home on this blog.

[@peterjongsma2754]

I was given the deepest consolation ever by a Spirit filled woman.Never forgotten it.

[@rogerwalters6443]

Consolation is not the primary job of the pastor. Glad you have had such an encounter.

[@DrummerPete2112]

That woman didn’t need to hold an office of the Church to do that. She just needed Christ in her heart and the guidance of the Holy Spirit to minister to you. This is the type of ministry that has no biblical exclusions. Every Christian is a witness for the Lord, but not all are called to be Pastors or Elders. These who are called, are Men by biblical qualification.

[@justchilling704]

@@DrummerPete2112The Bible doesn’t support that claim.

[@DrummerPete2112]

@@justchilling704 I changed the word “Everybody” to “Every Christian” Does that change your mind and your response?

[@bwhite-ee]

7:40 "What we must keep in mind is that Scripture should not be used in the argument." Is that really a sound principle?

[@SpeakTruthKindly]

At 7:48 you lost me with: “What we must keep in mind is that scripture should not be used in the argument.” Is it philosophically honest to say that an ecclesiastical question regarding a biblical office shouldn’t be primarily biblically adjudicated (even though there is most certainly disagreement on interpretation)?

[@mr.o957]

2:40 I appreciate the approach of looking to the Pre-Fall world and trying to get back to that. That is what Paul was trying to do in forbidding women from "teach[ing] or hav[ing] authority over a man" in 1Timothy 2:12. Paul's reason for saying this? "For Adam was formed first, then Eve" 1Timothy 2:13. This is the Pre-Fall order in the world without sin. He then gives a Post-Fall reason in the following verse, which doesn't negate the creation order from his first reason, but rather strengthens his argument.

[@mr.o957]

@@anthonyprose4965 Correct. Which is why I said, "He gives a Post-Fall reason in the following verse, which doesn't negate the creation order from his first reason." His first reason (in the Pre-Fall/creation order) isn't negated by the reason he gave which came as a result of the Fall.

[@jeffreymiller4623]

All scripture is inspired by the Spirit. The fact that this teaching is found in 2 different books of the bible tells me it's important. In the Corinthian 14 passage says in the following verses that it is the Lord's command.

[@erniegamboa5609]

1 Peter 5:2-4 Shepherd the flock of God which is among you, serving as overseers, not by compulsion but willingly, not for dishonest gain but eagerly; nor as being lords over those entrusted to you, but being examples to the flock; and when the Chief Shepherd appears, you will receive the crown of glory that does not fade away. John 10:11-15 “I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd gives His life for the sheep. But a hireling, he who is not the shepherd, one who does not own the sheep, sees the wolf coming and leaves the sheep and flees; and the wolf catches the sheep and scatters them. The hireling flees because he is a hireling and does not care about the sheep. I am the good shepherd; and I know My sheep, and am known by My own. As the Father knows Me, even so I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep. 1 Peter 2:25 For you were like sheep going astray, but have now returned to the Shepherd and Overseer of your souls. John 10:1-2 'Most assuredly, I say to you, he who does not enter the sheepfold by the door, but climbs up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber. But he who enters by the door is the shepherd of the sheep. John 10:4-5 And when he brings out his own sheep, he goes before them; and the sheep follow him, for they know his voice. Yet they will by no means follow a stranger, but will flee from him, for they do not know the voice of strangers.” John 21:15-17 So when they had eaten breakfast, Jesus said to Simon Peter, 'Simon, son of Jonah, do you love Me more than these?' He said to Him, 'Yes, Lord; You know that I love You.' He said to him, 'Feed My lambs.' He said to him again a second time, 'Simon, son of Jonah, do you love Me?' He said to Him, 'Yes, Lord; You know that I love You.' He said to him, 'Tend My sheep.' He said to him the third time, 'Simon, son of Jonah, do you love Me?' Peter was grieved because He said to him the third time, 'Do you love Me?' And he said to Him, 'Lord, You know all things; You know that I love You.' Jesus said to him, 'Feed My sheep. Acts 20:28-29 Therefore take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood. For I know this, that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock. Numbers 27:17 who may go out before them and go in before them, who may lead them out and bring them in, that the congregation of the LORD may not be like sheep which have no shepherd." 1 Samuel 17:34-36 But David said to Saul, “Your servant used to keep his father’s sheep, and when a lion or a bear came and took a lamb out of the flock, I went out after it and struck it, and delivered the lamb from its mouth; and when it arose against me, I caught it by its beard, and struck and killed it. Your servant has killed both lion and bear; and this uncircumcised Philistine will be like one of them, seeing he has defied the armies of the living God.” Jeremiah 3:15 And I will give you shepherds according to My heart, who will feed you with knowledge and understanding. Zechariah 10:2 For the idols speak delusion; The diviners envision lies, And tell false dreams; They comfort in vain. Therefore the people wend their way like sheep; They are in trouble because there is no shepherd. Matthew 9:36 But when He saw the multitudes, He was moved with compassion for them, because they were weary and scattered, like sheep having no shepherd. Matthew 18:12 “What do you think? If a man has a hundred sheep, and one of them goes astray, does he not leave the ninety-nine and go to the mountains to seek the one that is straying? John 10:9 I am the door. If anyone enters by Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture. Ephesians 4:11 And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers,

[@justinhornsby6742]

So, if I understand this properly, women should be pastors for the following reasons: 1) Slavery was misinterpreted centuries ago 2) 1 Corinthians and 1 Timothy are unique and "the only two of that kind" that address women's role and function in the church. 3) Women were influential partners in ministry in the early church 4) Gal 3:28 gives witness to the new community that Christ has called 5) Some Catholic scholars leaders have supported the idea. Response: 1) You're going to have to convince us from Scripture. For example, why should we set aside, and practically ignore, texts that address male eldership and husband headship? 2) You ignore explicit texts about men and women's roles in the church (like 1 Cor & 1 Tim) and expect us to ignore them because Gal 3:28 teaches us that, in Christ, we are all one. It doesn't work like that. 3) If that is the criteria for preaching, then you must also support children, new converts, and men without the ability to teach and shepherd to be elders and preachers...for they, too, are one in Christ as believers. 4) Those same Catholic scholars accept and promote some very unbiblical beliefs, which brings us back to point # 1.

[@Daniel-id6le]

This guys a dr of the church?

[@wnewton5137]

Paul states in 1 Timothy 2:12-14 But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet. For it was Adam who was first created, and then Eve. And it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression. Paul doesn’t use tradition or cultural reasons to explain the position of authority, but the order in which God has created and set things into place according to His glory. It is also proclaimed in 1 Corinthians 11, 7 For a man ought not to have his head covered, since he is the image and glory of God; but the woman is the glory of man. 8 For man does not originate from woman, but woman from man; 9 for indeed man was not created for the woman’s sake, but woman for the man’s sake. Ephesians 5:22-33 teaches that man is the head of the wife. These days the sin of pride is the underlining problem of a major part of this debate and a lot of people don’t like this portion of scripture, but I see the power of love here because the man is to love the wife as Christ loves the church, even to the point of death. If a woman submits to God with humility, God will use her in powerful ways. It seems to me God has established the pattern from the beginning, and we need to be submissive to His purpose and plan, not ours.

[@thetruthsadvocate4934]

St. Paul declares...."Mislead weak-minded women who are burdened with sins and led by all kinds of desires. 7 These women are always studying but are never able to recognize the truth". 2 Timothy 3:6-7 (GW)

[@christianfrommuslim]

@@thetruthsadvocate4934 There were many uneducated, weak-minded women then. Now there are more in universities around the world than men.

[@smummy2904]

Adam, Eve? Paul then relied on a inaccurate genesis of the human species, and misinterpreted Gods design.

[@victormashatt6358]

We're talking a woman holding office and teaching in the church. Women can minister, but not hold office. Not examples, but instructions

[@aikhongchua8978]

May I know why you said "scriptures should not be used in the argument" at the very end of your video? I thought everything should be based on the scriptures rather than on men's tradition.

[@touchofgrace3217]

He also said it was a gospel issue which isn’t true unless he does not subscribe to the gospel of Jesus Christ.

[@jvlp2046]

I am a Christian, and I agree with the RCC (Catholics) that Women should not be the HEAD of the CHURCH of GOD in Christ Jesus or be ordained as Priestess... why?... It is not about yours, theirs, or even my interpretation of the Bible, but the "WILL OF GOD."... (Matt. 7:21), "He who does the WILL of My (Christ) Father (God) will enter the Kingdom of Heaven"... "Matt. 12:50), "He who does the WILL of MY (Christ) Father (God) is my Brother, Sister, and Mother." We (mankind) have no right, to QUESTION God, nor to Challenge God's WILL... Some will ask, is God a racist?... a male chauvinist?... why St. Paul said this and that regarding women?... ETC... God has His REASONS why: 1. God created Man (Adam) first before Woman (Eve) from the dust thru God's Image and Likeness... (Gen. 2:7) 2. God commanded Adam to Rule over God's Creation (Ruler of the World) and to name all God's creation, and whatever name Adam gave so shall be their names... (Gen. 2:19-20) 3. It was from Man's Body/flesh and Blood that Woman was created (formed)... (Gen. 2:21-24) 4. The Glory of Woman is Man, the Glory of Man is Christ, the Glory of Christ is God... (1 Corin. 11:7) 5. It was the Woman who was deceived by Satan (serpent) and the FIRST to fall short (sinned) in the Glory of God. (Gen. 3 / 1 Tim 2:14) 6. The WILL of God is that Man to be the HEAD of the Family/Household of Mankind... (Eph. 5:22-23 / 1 Corin 11:3 / 7. The WILL of God that His Only Begotten SON (Christ Jesus) be the HEAD/GROOM of God's CHURCH... (Eph. 1:22) 8. God promised and had chosen ABRAHAM (not Sarah) to be the Father of All Nations of the World... (Gen. 17:5) Other LOGICAL Reasons why: (supported by the Bible) 1. St. Paul said, "Women in Faith," should KEEP SILENT (keep quiet) in God's Church (1 Corin. 14:34 / 1 Tim. 2: 11-15)... logically if you ordain women, they have the right to speak out about any Church matters and decisions. 2. Christ had chosen 12 MALE Apostles (no female Apostles but women can do "discipleship," like Mary Magdalene, Prescilla, etc.)... logically speaking, Christ obeys the WILL of His Father. 3. If God allowed both Man (Husband) and Woman (Wife) to be the HEAD of the Family... logically, who will take the Surname of their Children?... it will be CHAOS to have 2 Captains on a SHIP. 4. God created the PHYSIOLOGICAL and BIOLOGICAL Structure of Man GREATER than Women (not mental/psychological structure, I.Q.)... Logically, Man's Physique, Skeletal and Muscular Systems are Greater than Women, which is why women do not compete with Male Transgender in Physical Sports (not mental sports like Chess/Quiz games, etc.)... therefore "Physical Strenght" to Head the Family and to Head God's Church is preferred by God... why?... Women are WEAKER VESSELS (1 Peter 3:7) 5. God knew, if Men are susceptible to temptation, Women are more susceptible to temptation because Satan often used Women as Satan's OLDEST TRICK, since the beginning of her downfall in the Garden of Eden, to get Men in Satan's favor/power... logical example PORNOGRAPHY, what is the ratio?... 1:100... 1 male to 100 female porno artists... As the old saying goes, "Man's downfall is due to his weakness to Woman"... supported Biblically... Story of Adam and Eve, Samson and Delilah, Esther and the Persian King, etc... Have you ever wondered, why Companies in the Merchandise Business (ex. food/clothing) preferred more SALESLADIES than SALESMEN in Shopping malls, Fine Dining/Bars (waitresses), Groceries/Department stores, etc.?... you do the logic. 6. Logically, there were no Priestesses (Female Priests) chosen by God to work/administer in God's TABERNACLE/SANCTUARY/ALTAR since Moses accepted the 10 commandments of God at Mt. Sinai even up to now, but women can be Prophetess/Judge like Miriam (sister of Aaron = 1st High Priest) the first Prophetess and Deborah the first female Judge of the Jews/Israel... 7. Finally, God wants "Women of Faith" to always WEAR their VIRTUE of "MODESTY and SUBMISSION" to their HUSBAND and to the HEAD (Christ) of God's Church... Amen... Conclusion: it is not about what the Bible says that matters most, but it is a MATTER of GOD'S WILL... not yours, not theirs, not mine... but GOD'S WILL be done... that is the main ISSUE here... if we LOVE God, no argument, and no debate, no compromise, just OBEY and FOLLOW God's WILL... Like Christ had said to His Father, "NOT MY WILL BUT YOURS BE DONE." Let us Follow Christ's Examples... Facts and Truth, Biblically speaking... Amen...

[@MbuotidemAkpan-l8k]

Thank you for this clarity

[@eonsailerock12]

I am really sorry. I'm trying honestly to find information about these issue, but I am really dissapointed about these video because the aguments that is presented is so weak. The unique valuable information in order to find an answer to this issue is the reference of the book. the rest made me fell so bad, because I found information until now about this particular topic, and I found really strong arguments against women pastors. Not misunderstand me, I'm just a seeker that is trying to be, the most honets as can be possible according my cappabilities.

[@elpapi6208]

As an ex-Catholic I wouldn't call them "Christians" just because they are closer to Christianity. I was one and never had a saving knowledge of Jesus. And so my Catholic friends know there is a difference between them and me pertaining to faith in Christ.

[@PInk77W1]

Jesus said “Father let them be one.” Paul said “Let there be no division among you.” You say No thanks

[@saved6655]

@@PInk77W1 and Paul also wrote the letter to Corinth. And to Timothy, Timothy ran the largest church in the day. The church of Ephesus. He told Timothy it to allow women as teachers elder pastors, you name it. Now I’m going to go with the Bible. It’s created order and the way God had it to be.

[@PInk77W1]

@@saved6655 I don’t understand what u are trying to say ? Sorry

[@saved6655]

@@PInk77W1 lol Mandy it’s not you, Mabel it’s me lol. Do you believe women should be ordained?

[@saved6655]

@@PInk77W1 oh your talking about Christianity and Roman Catholics?

[@slowster2945]

5:55 And what text do they refer to to make their call on that? Not mentioned... Polls are not doctrine. I'm not convinced either way, yet, but arguments like these are not helping the pro WO side.

[@meghanmckenzie2516]

I do agree with you but it is odd that the old testament does not reference women serving in the tabernacle and priesthood

[@Videx19]

I grew up in the Anglican church which has had ordained women for 30 years. That status of women priests pleases me as it is consistent with my opinion that women can preach the word of God too. The calm rational approach and researchable facts that you have shown your viewers is the right approach to discuss the issue.

[@ImaBeliever]

I believe a woman can testify about her life and and use scripture-in other words, she is invited to use her testimony as a tool for those who have experienced similar things in life and show them how Christ-through the word of God can use this as her ministry to the glory of God, Relating to others and why they are there at Church in this day and age is so important and keeping strictly to the word of God to back up her testimony does NOT make her ordained-but a preacher or teacher. I believe in the headship-God,Man.woman,child.The head of the house is man who goes before God in prayer to guide his family in righteousness-but many men have fallen to the wayside and this is why a house divided will not stand.If he is the head of the house-of course he an discuss things with his wife, but he has to make the decision and he will be held accountable for his family.

[@StevenRay64]

Stop your B.S. women to remain silent in the churches, and that is a Bible fact.

[@ImaBeliever]

@@StevenRay64 This comment you left me really shows you are disrespectful and I forgive you.

[@nicksanders9148]

but look up the word head in the Greek tho, lets not scare women away from Jesus with not understanding these thing first

[@rhavenlynn5364]

Um no. If you are referring to I Corinthians 11, it states that God is the head of Christ, man is the head of woman. Two problems in seeing that passage as meaning “leader”. First, Christ is equal to God. 2nd not every woman is married.

[@hof5943]

​@@rhavenlynn5364 Equal doesn't mean similar in role. Yes, men and women are equal before God, but the roles assigned are different. Same with the Trinity.

[@amaledward2147]

No

[@chefmargaretmoorefield2490]

Jesus has already answered this question: every skin color, every race AND both sexes are EQUAL after being reborn through the sacrifice of Jesus Christ. So, they can twist the words of Paul, or anyone, continually but it doesn’t change that Jesus made ALL OF US WHO ARE REBORN EQUAL! And no one has the authority to override Jesus! And he knows best! Because if you haven’t heard, there is a huge shortage of Pastors in the US. And many Churches are actively recruiting women pastors because there are not enough men even wanting to take the position anymore! We should all FOLLOW SCRIPTURE , without exception. And, also, read the statistics on the HIGH percentage of male pastors who are quitting their jobs! We need to focus on saving souls, and get over this ego, ego, ego driven subject. God bless all.

[@touchofgrace3217]

7:47 Scripture should not be used…wow. He doesn’t want scripture used because it not only clearly states that women should not lead but WHY they should not. Women lead with emotion (hence easily deceived and easily deceiving), men lead with reason. I know many sweet women who have been led astray by false teachers who tickle their ears. They get carried away by the emotionalism and don’t bother reading the Bible for themselves.

[@jeffstewart7439]

#FACTS

[@neilmccall5311]

I think this is nonsense. Almost all the major sub-Christian cults (JWs, Mormonism, etc) have been set up by MEN who have deceived themselves and others. There is no reason why a woman cannot discern false teachers as long as she is well-taught and THAT is where the problem used to lie.

[@touchofgrace3217]

@@neilmccall5311 I think you are confusing wolves in sheep’s clothing with the blind leading the blind. Either way, that doesn’t negate the basic differences between how God created men and women and what His intentions were for those differences.

[@tripletgoat]

"scripture must not be used in the argument" ??Where does that take you? Scripture lays it out clearly.

[@sarahusrey-ld4zu]

then why was Debra a judge over Israel for 40 years?

[@BoylenInk]

I've wavered back and forth on this issue over the years but I currently lean toward not ordaining women. Sorry, but I didn't find anything in this video persuasive. In fact, some of it was so flawed that I felt less likely to change my mind right after watching it. Making women's ordination a gospel issue unnecessarily ratchets up the rhetoric and peoples' emotions beyond credibility. There are a number of reasons to think women's ordination is inappropriate, being opposed to the gospel isn't one of them. It is important to remember any time someone tries to attack conservative interpretations of scripture by bringing up, "the Bible was used to support slavery" meme is that the Bible was used to support BLACK slavery. Nobody back then was trying to reinstate slavery as a general practice. The way they did this was to imagine that somehow Noah's curse of Canaan applied to Africans. In other words, the pro-slavery arguments were imaginative interpretations of scripture - not conservative. While there are examples of women in leadership positions in scripture do these really equate to an ordained pastor today? Maybe, maybe not, this point really needs more than insinuations to be worth anything. While I find points of agreement and disagreement with the RCC, I don't ever consider them an authority on what the Bible teaches - ever. Conservative Protestants consistently argue from scripture and never argue from tradition. It is disingenuous to say they hold their position purely because of tradition and not at all because of scripture. In the end, this video is not going to change anyone's mind and I wonder if it was ever meant to.

[@richardthenryvideos]

Great thoughtful comment!

[@Himmiefan]

Are you really responded based on scripture (and putting scripture back into proper context), or does prohibiting and restricting women boost your self-esteem? It's a reasonable question.

[@andrewp4075]

@@Himmiefan and the answer to your question, is obvious to any reasonable person.

[@joellestone1852]

Great arguments. :) As an evangelical Christian, I'd like to respond to a few. 1. The result of the Fall was that Eve would not be okay with Adam's authority anymore - not that it never existed in the first place. (Genesis 3:16) Before that, we see that she was created to be a /helper/ for him - literally one who helps or succors. A helper is not the one in authority - they are a servant, coming to the aid of the one who asks for help and following their instructions on how to best help them. If they aren't asked for help but they still see a need, it is likely that they will approach the person in need and simply ask, "How may I help you?" This is an automatic submission to the person in need for their own betterment, and it is the calling of woman for man, specifically in the realm of marriage. We are the support system and HQ. When both woman and man try to be the commander, you lose everything that gives commanders their power, and instead are faced with the "too many chiefs, not enough Indians" thing. So yes, we see the continuation of the Fall in modern culture, but not in the way described. We see the continuation in women's rebellion against God's design for men to be teachers and leaders and women to be support systems and helpmeets. We see it in women no longer being okay with being the support, nourishment, and encouragement for their warriors and instead see them take up the blade themselves, disregarding authority, when there are others more capable of handling it. 2. Prayer and prophesying are not teaching, nor do they require a woman to be ordained, so going back to 1 Corinthians 11 is irrelevant. Not only that, but Paul's argument in that passage has nothing to do with the authority of women, but a cultural disagreement about whether or not they should have their heads covered (whole other discussion that I'm willing to get into if you'd like :)). If women are ordained, it is to teach, which is clearly forbidden in the Bible - at least teaching men. Prophesying and prayer build up a church - again, a woman being a support system and not the commander. To be a pastor is to teach, lead, and protect, which has been the job of a man since before the Fall, not a woman. 3. I don't see how the emphasis is on usurping...? He says women are not to teach over a man. The Greek word teach there has many meanings, most of which are in regards to taking on the title/office of a teacher and/or having it be your job to impart instruction. This is not to say women are not to correct men (or I wouldn't be talking right now XD), but it is to be done one-on-one, not as your job. Not only that, but the reasons Paul gives for this are two things: the first is something that happened before the Fall, and therefore it was not bad; and the second is something that happened after the Fall but was Eve's own fault and had nothing to do with culture or Adam. Actually, it was Eve rebelling against authority in the first place and disregarding commands which got us into this mess, which is kinda ironic if you think about it. XDDD So yes, I do believe it has something to do with authority - but not just usurping. Any authority within the church that is exercised over men is to be given to a man. Women are ok in church authority over other women and children, but she was made second. 4. Might want to do some research on your version. It could be man's interpretation, not a word-for-word translation which... is also a whole other debate. XP But. In response... Junia: Can be translated Junias, which is a male name. Assuming they were a she, she's credited for being kin to Paul and a fellow prisoner of Christ. She and Andronicus were well-known to the apostles but not stated to be teachers themselves. Phoebe: A /servant/ of the church. Possibly the word also means "deaconess", but I personally can't see that due to Paul's qualifications for deacons in 1 Timothy which clearly state that they are men. I'm to learning more about that, though. :) Prisca & Aquila: A couple who /served/ Paul and offered their lives for Christ. Paul says nothing about either of them teaching or exercising authority over a man, just them being a couple sold out to Jesus' service. 5. I love this verse. :D And yes, men and women are equal. That does not mean we have interchangeable roles. Women are the caretakers, nurturers, helpmeets. Men are the teachers, leaders, protectors, and providers. A man is not to be the homemaker and women are not to be the providers. There are exceptions, but in both cases that is when a person of the correct gender is either completely unqualified, unavailable, or unwilling (Deborah and Barak, for example). I have more but I think that's enough. Thank you for your thoughtful approach to this!! :) I feel like Roberts missed the point - women are not to TEACH. They are very welcome - and encouraged - to serve, pray, prophesy, and encourage. And... why can't Scripture be used in the argument? Roberts just used like... so many pieces of Scripture for his arguments... XD Okay that was ridiculously long. Congrats if you read it all. XDD Keep seeking Jesus!

[@NotJake315]

So first you appeal to a guy- not the Bible. Then pluck a few reinterpretations of selected verses as support while dodging the most blatant clear instruction that women are NOT to be over the men and why- because that wasn’t God’s order of operation or designation of roles. I was curious about how someone might try to get around this but I see your arguments are based almost entirely in eisegesical interpretation (aka lying to yourself and others for appeal to feelings) and a guys book (irrelevant of when it was written or the credentials of the author, Scripture is the authority and blatantly contradicts him). Women are fully allowed to teach and preach to women and children in ministry, absolutely nothing wrong with that. There are some great teachers out there- when they do it BIBLICALLY. If you’re taking any position of dominion over men- YOU ARE WRONG. It’s not because men are superior, that’s your broken fallen worldview as stated in Genesis 3. It’s because the home and the church are to be an image of Christ and His Bride. Repent and read your Bible, stop being rebellious.

[@CalebDaniel-wl9hv]

So much emotion, so little reason in your post. Leave your feelings out of this and actually address what’s being said. Alternatively, shut up.

[@NotJake315]

@@CalebDaniel-wl9hv if you struggle with reading comprehension, that isn’t because I wasn’t clear. Primarily, stop twisting Scripture to make room for your preferences and feelings.

[@CalebDaniel-wl9hv]

@@NotJake315 Now you’re assuming what my preferences are, and you’re assuming that I’m twisting things. Neither of which you know, and neither of which you can prove. Since you struggle with reading comprehension, and you lack the logic necessary to engage, have someone write your replies for you. You need to quit dumping massive loads and then overreacting when it’s pointed out it to you. It doesn’t help that you can’t rap either.

[@NotJake315]

@@CalebDaniel-wl9hv So you don’t prefer women to be in leadership? Why make the post? And you are in fact twisting Scripture, so it absolutely not because you’re bringing awareness to the truth. I’m also not taking about twisting ambiguous “things”, but Scripture. The authors didn’t arbitrarily write what they felt like and leave it up to us to guess at. They wrote what they were led by the Holy Spirit to write- meaning there’s only 1 intended meaning, and various applications. You came up with your own meaning, therefore you’ve applied what you came up with and that’s why it’s wrong, and twisting Scripture to fit in with your preferences and feelings, not the truth. As for rap, you’re the 3rd person in almost 3 years to have said that- but its important to note that neither you, nor the other 2, had any idea what they were talking about. I’ll gladly take the opinion of a 4 time Grammy award winning rap artist and thousands of men, women, and children, over some guy that can’t even read Scripture accurately, and I’m dead certain can’t figure out how to structure a single bar of music let alone multiple verses. Stick to what you’re good at, so far we know it’s neither of those.

[@Maxandshe]

You would think that men would welcome all believers, including women, to speak out their faith and the wonder of the Gospel freely. And yet they rail against women and strongarm them into silence. What's wrong with these male converts???

[@robertj5208]

Roberts sounds like a great deconstructionist.

[@hermanessences]

Hmmmm, but if there were women as priests in the early church, wouldn't we expect to see some writings about this among the church fathers? When some people objected, etc? And why were all of Jesus' disciples men? Edit: I see that the last question was adressed in the video.

[@peachy_talisman]

All of Jesus’ weren’t just men though? Mary Magdalene? Joanna, Susanna, Salome?

[@heistbros8575]

​@@peachy_talismanBut did jesus ordain all of his followers? No, he only ordained the 12. Or really 11.

[@DeFyYing]

The Bible does mention Junia the Apostle and Phoebe the deaconess

[@davidbrock4104]

"the husband of one wife" used to mean something. Not anymore, at least not here. Way, way off track

[@atestring1379]

Waste Apostle Paul rhe husband of one wife?

[@gcg9056]

what is your response to atestring from 3 months ago? cat got your tongue?

[@davidbrock4104]

There were no women overseers in teaching ministry in the new testament. Phoebe doesn't qualify, the evidence isn't there

[@codykereopa1143]

@@atestring1379 was he an apostle or a pastor?

[@stephenpeppin5537]

@@codykereopa1143 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the commandment of God our Saviour. 1 Timothy 1:1

[@felixguerrero6062]

This is the weakest defence of female ordination, I have heard in a long time. It's a Gospel issue to faithfully uphold the Apostolic witness in the New Testement. The gentleman didnt even attempt to analyze the relevant New Testament passages concerning ordination, a clear sign that he was woefully unprepared to address this topic. Sadly this is representative of the Biblical ignorance pervading much of the evangelical church "leadership" today.

[@BillBurnette]

Interpreting scripture literally, without understanding cultural context, leads to all kinds of error. kzbin.info/www/bejne/qqTcgp-XeJWVqrs

[@felixguerrero6062]

@@BillBurnette Yes, you are simply projecting in your cultural biases and prejudices (so called egalitarianism) into the Biblical text in the most aggressive and faithless way. Shame on you.

[@michaelbrickley2443]

Felix Guerrero, you’re wrong

[@felixguerrero6062]

@@michaelbrickley2443 Not an argument, mate.

[@michaelbrickley2443]

@@felixguerrero6062 not here to argue with you. I got things to do. Believe what you want. Is it going to change your salvation? Your state of grace?

[@nilsalmgren4492]

To refute the ban on ordaining women all you need to do is reject direct instruction from the Bible and do what is right in your own eyes.

[@danieljbull77]

You start well and make some interesting points, but you end up just making a statement without substantiating it.

[@briansims2566]

He states this as a gospel issue. Not sure if he is meaning to imply that this issue is somehow salvific or not...but many times that is what people mean by 'gospel issue.' He uses slavery as analogous to women ordination. Sets up false comparison to emotionally soften opposition. After all, we can all agree that slavery is wrong... The objection that women subjugation is a result of the fall and that particular result is not longer valid begs the question then, pain in child birth was a result of fall, why wasn't that taken away? Man must work the ground for it to produce fruit, why wasn’t that taken away? And then of course, physical death was a result, why wasn't that taken away? Why are we cherry picking this one result of the fall and then saying it is no longer valid because of Christ? His point on 1 Cor 14:34-35 with reference back to 1 Cor 11:5 is pointless to the argument as 11:5 is talking about prayer and prophesy and the subject at hand is ordination. Apples and oranges... 1 Tim 2:11-12...he stops at 12 and ignores verse 13 where Paul appeals to creation as the basis for his argumentation about women being silent. He goes on to talk about 'Junia the Apostle.' There is MUCH debate and doubt the name Junia and the whether or not she was an Apostle or just known among the Apostles. Read different versions of Rom 16:7. It is not as 'clear' as he states. In the video he throws it in as if it were settled fact and doesn't bother to expand. He appeals to other instances where Paul cites women in 'leadership.' None of them indicate Eldership or Pastoral roles. Many conservatives will agree with the concept that women can have leadership positions in the church but that only the positions of Elder or Pastor are denied to them. He then moves on to Galatians 3:28 and says that he isn't using it a proof text...which normally means when someone says something similar to that they are, in fact, using it as such... That aside he takes this verse and then quickly says he was convinced this was a Gospel issue because of the verse. The verse itself has nothing to do with leadership in the church....like...at all. Then he appeals to Catholic Bible scholars as the basis for valid interpretation of biblical precedent...that's about all I can say about that.. All in all, a predictable and weak argument that is refuted with proper exegesis.

[@TheFatTheist]

Brian Sims Pretty solid analysis all the way through. I do appreciate thoughtful consideration of scripture in its context.

[@IC_XC_NIKA]

So true! There wasn't much diligence in his argument. Also, to call something a "gospel issue" and not expound on it is a big deal. I was hoping he put more effort in his position.

[@jvlp2046]

How do you call a woman ordained as PRIESTESS,... mother?

[@thetruthsadvocate4934]

You could righteously call them for what they have become... Heretics! Or as St. Paul declares....."Mislead weak-minded women who are burdened with sins and led by all kinds of desires. 7 These women are always studying but are never able to recognize the truth". 2 Timothy 3:6-7 (GW)

[@jvlp2046]

@@thetruthsadvocate4934 St. Paul uses the Greek word "AICHMALOTIZONTES" which means "Taking Captives or Leading Away"... That pertains to anyone who turns a certain way of thinking into something else, perhaps a SCAMMER or a CON-ARTIST / SWINDLER... these people do not stand/acknowledge the TRUTH...

[@jumperstartful]

So what other scripture do we have wrong. How about salvation, do we have that wrong? The local methodist church has a lgbt pastor. So does todays culture override the Bible?

[@loremaster234]

It would seem so! The constant attempt at conforming the Word of God to society only exposes those who never truly accepted it in the first place. Not fully, anyway. May people repent in Jesus name. Amen.

[@andrewgordon9318]

Ignores Pauls main argument - the order in creation

[@sarahusrey-ld4zu]

he was trying to correct the false teaching of the day, God trust Debra to be a judge over Israel for 40 years

[@DrummerPete2112]

Women praying and prophesying in the early church is not the same as holding the office of Elder or Pastor teaching men in the congregation. It’s not. That Paul forbidding women to speak or teach in church as an Elder or Pastor being based on 1st century Jewish culture, is an idea that’s fundamentally wrong. Paul sights the creation order and God’s design for men & women’s rolls establishing the first ordained culture by God himself. It’s modern culture that drags scripture over to itself, to suit its morays and not the other way around which is correct.

[@zerosparky9510]

have you read in Scripture whre Paul says nothing about in 1st Corinthians about only being for Brothers , who he wrote to. in C 12 is a List. apostles, prophets, etc. so this was wrote to Sisters and Brothers in Christ. which tells me a Sister could be a apostle.

[@morethanpixls]

No one, neither men nor women can be an apostle today.

[@remnant8898]

@@morethanpixls the bible refutes that statement. Of course women and men can be apostles today.

[@carp614]

These arguments, no matter how eloquently made, deny the plain teaching of scripture. Every argument sited falls apart under scrutiny. Ultimately, the egalitarian view requires a personal presupposition that women should be pastors. That is isigesis, and it is unsound theology as a result.

[@noobmaster31]

I would suggest that everyone who watches this go read the scriptures themselves and do additional research. Paul didn't say the reason for his limitation on women was because of what was going on in Ephesus. He says in 1 Timothy 2:13-14 that it was done because of the order of creation in Adam and Eve. You can try your best to twist this using your agenda, but it's not going to work. 11 A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. 12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet. 13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14 And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner. 15 But women will be saved through childbearing-if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety. False teachers will try to justify their own beliefs and twist scripture while doing that. I hope we're all wise enough to question the claims and do our own reading of scripture. Go look into Junia, Priscilla, Phoebe, etc before you believe what this person is saying. Go re-read Galatians 3:28. It's talking about justification through faith in Jesus, not the order in the church structure. Catholics and Christians are not the same. Catholics look to the Apocrypha as equivalent to God breathed scriptures. I hope that people would go investigate their views very closely.

[@jeannejames2887]

If God chooses to use a woman to share His Words..He can do that... I don't think people really understand who and what He really is

[@7Logik]

And just like eve in the garden , it's clear why God made man the head. Your comment reeks feminist

[@joellestone1852]

...does that not also mean that we should accept his choice to not use women to teach His words over men...? Love that you're seeking God's character, by the way. :)

[@stephenpeppin5537]

But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies. 2 Peter 2:1

[@nicksanders9148]

they hate women most the time like their father satan

[@timmatteson3959]

Stephen you shouldn’t talk about yourself like that…

[@Bob-hb5tr]

Allowing women to Priests destroy Persona Christi...The Catholic Church is the Bride of Christ...and therefore the Priest is representing Jesus in Persona Christi in the Sacraments...the Bride Groom...If we allow women to be Priests, we will have an issue with Consecration...We would have a Homosexual type relationship...if a woman was allowed to say, "This is my Body". That right there would invalidate Women in the Priesthood.

[@peacengrease3901]

Here are eight points making a case for women as pastors from the Bible: 1. _Galatians 3:28_: "There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus." This verse emphasizes equality in Christ, transcending gender. 2. _Joel 2:28-29_: "Your sons and daughters will prophesy... and your daughters will prophesy." This passage anticipates the Holy Spirit's outpouring on all people, regardless of gender. 3. _Acts 2:17-18_: Peter quotes Joel's prophecy, including the phrase "your daughters will prophesy," indicating the inclusion of women in spiritual leadership. 4. _Romans 16:1-2_: Paul commends Phoebe, a deacon (or minister) of the church in Cenchrea, demonstrating women's roles in ministry. 5. _1 Corinthians 11:5_: Women are described as praying and prophesying in church gatherings, indicating their active participation in worship leadership. 6. _Colossians 3:16_: "Let the message of Christ dwell among you richly... teaching and admonishing one another in all wisdom." This verse encourages mutual teaching and leadership without gender distinction. 7. _1 Peter 4:10-11_: "Each one should use whatever gift they have received to serve others, as faithful stewards of God's grace in its various forms." This passage emphasizes using gifts for service and leadership without gender restrictions. 8. _Junia, an apostle_: Romans 16:7 mentions Andronicus and Junia, "outstanding among the apostles," indicating a female apostle (Junia) recognized by Paul. These points seem to demonstrate a biblical foundation for women's roles in spiritual leadership and ministry, challenging complementarian views that restrict women from pastoral roles. However, lets Take a closer look by deconstructing and reconstructing these points according to standard biblical interpretation. Deconstruction: 1. Galatians 3:28 - This verse addresses spiritual equality, not gender roles. 2. Joel 2:28-29 - This prophecy is about the Holy Spirit's outpouring, not specifically about women in leadership. 3. Acts 2:17-18 - Peter quotes Joel, but doesn't explicitly appoint women leaders. 4. Romans 16:1-2 - Phoebe is a deacon, but her role is unclear; it may be a servant or helper role, not necessarily teaching or leading. 5. 1 Corinthians 11:5 - Women are praying and prophesying, but in a specific cultural context; Paul also instructs them to submit to their husbands (Ephesians 5:22-24). 6. Colossians 3:16 - This verse encourages mutual teaching, but doesn't specify women in leadership roles. 7. 1 Peter 4:10-11 - This passage emphasizes using gifts for service, but doesn't explicitly include teaching or leadership. 8. Junia - The Greek text is ambiguous, and some translations interpret Junia as a male name (Junias). Reconstruction (Complementarian view): 1. Creation order - God created Adam first, then Eve (Genesis 2:7, 22), establishing a natural order. 2. Headship - The husband is the head of the wife, just as Christ is the head of the church (Ephesians 5:23-24). 3. Role distinctions - Men and women have different roles in the church and family (1 Timothy 2:12, Titus 1:6). 4. Teaching and authority - Men are called to teach and exercise authority in the church (1 Timothy 2:12, 1 Corinthians 14:34-35). 5. Submission - Wives are called to submit to their husbands, just as the church submits to Christ (Ephesians 5:22-24). 6. Historical precedent - The early church and historical Christian tradition have largely maintained male leadership. 7. Biblical qualifications - Elders and pastors must meet specific qualifications (1 Timothy 3:1-7, Titus 1:6-9), which are generally understood as applying to men. 8. Complementary roles - Men and women complement each other in their roles, reflecting the Trinity's relational harmony. Complementarianism, when practiced with a compassionate, mild, humble, and loving approach, can honor and value women's contributions in many roles within the church, except for spiritual leadership and authority over men. This perspective emphasizes the importance of men and women complementing each other, using their unique gifts and strengths to build each other up.

[@victormashatt6358]

We look at instruction, not what people did

[@sayedesam2042]

Teaching is a godly gift for service not an authority.. even new complementarianas say that woman can teach under authority of male leadership

[@peacengrease3901]

Wrong

[@slumberland969]

There are many amazing ordained spirit-filled female ministers out there - God can speak through women, even a child - could lead others to Christ. God exists - and he does not discriminate between male and female - he loves all his children equally. Periodt!

[@StevenRay64]

The women are disobeying the word and will be judge for that, and that is a Bible fact. Woman was the first human being to sin. It it wasn't for a woman a man would be sin free. Adam was formed first then Eve.

[@donalddodson7365]

Bravo! Calmly, clearly, prayerfully and based in Scripture, we are called to choose: Word of God or "traditions" of men? Thank you!

[@morethanpixls]

The clearest scripture on qualifications identifies men, not women. Relying on less clear passages to offset clearer passages is not great bible interpretation.

[@joymahiko]

All the objections are found in the Word of God. That's enough for me. I want to follow Christ - not you. Are you a saviour? Are you King of Kings and Lord of Lords? Hardly.

[@davidvanriper60]

Where does 1 TIM. 9-12 allow a woman to be selected or asked to be a pastor? vs.12 "I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence." Yes, "USURP" means to take control unlawfully, or wrongly. So, when a pastor ordains a woman to the office of pastor or deaconess; BOTH are violating the scriptural commandment recorded plainly here by Paul. There is no Greek grammar here allowing a reading of...."I will not allow a woman to have authority for the time being; until she is knowledgeable enough in scripture. Phoebe (ROM. 16:1) is called a "servant" ..it is not said she held the office of Deaconess. The KJV has it right. VS. 7 Andronicus and Junia were held in high regard by the apostles. The verse does not say they were apostles. Priscilla and Aquila were "helpers". A newer Christian male convert can certainly be taught to some degree by a woman; but this does not give them authority to be pastors or deaconesses. Years ago I did some writing. I had a dear Christian friend (female) who could read New Testament Greek fluently. She was a tremendous help to me, but that did not make her an officer in the church. As for GAL. 3:28...the subject is that all in Christ are redeemed from the Law curse, and made EQUAL partakers of the Abrahamic covenant of Promise, and all are HEIRS in Christ (vs. 29), no matter their station, nationality, or sex. We are ALL equally justified, baptized into Christ, and saved by God's grace through faith. This verse has NOTHING to do with leadership functions and offices in the church. I hope this helps someone....God Bless.

[@rhavenlynn5364]

Nope. The KJV has changed many things. The word used for authority is a negative use of authority. Paul is forbidding women from forcefully taking authority. It does not mean any woman as a leader in the church is taking authority forcibly.

[@rhavenlynn5364]

I doubt the church will ever get away from pagan patriarchy. Just like they never quote the verse before Ephesians 5:22

[@davidvanriper60]

@@rhavenlynn5364 After 37 years as a Christian I have noticed a common "thread" as the churches have moved toward modernism and away from scriptural authority. They often "scapegoat" the King James and move to recent Bible versions to make their case. As I stated in my post above...Yes, "USURP" means to take control unlawfully, or wrongly. It is indeed a negative use of the phrase. But we are not talking about personal views or opinions. We are talking about GOD's WORD and HIS authority to establish the offices and qualifications regarding local church leadership. The verses in Timothy and Titus are the commandments of the Lord, and have nothing to do with Paul's "patriarchal" biases. Paul goes back to Genesis 3 to explain why God has set up His church to function this way. So, no matter how "peacefully" a woman assumes eldership or becomes a pastor, she-and the men of the church who allowed it- are in open rebellion against against the Lord and Savior. We do not make our own rules. Oh, and I see you found a Bible "contradiction" in Ephesians 5? God bless...

[@andrewp4075]

“Scripture should not be used in the argument.” What!? I cannot believe you meant that as pastoral advice to resolving this issue. When I read the title I expected to find legitimate objections to the ordination of women, followed by an attempt at a logical, biblical and specific refutation of each argument. Instead you have simply presented some reasons for your view. Ultimately, what Scripture has to say about this is of primary importance. You would do well to wrestle with all that the Bible does say about this matter and not simply be happy with a few verses, taken in isolation. To end with a proclamation that it is about tradition and not scripture, is to demonstrate an inability to deal appropriately with scripture. Brother, you have not raised any of the main Biblical lines of argument for the objections to ordination of women as church pastors. For those who oppose your view, nothing in what you have said is likely to present any re-examination of their position. I listened to this so that I may understand the view and see if arguments permitting the ordination of, and preaching by, women in the wider church might be valid, or at least compelling. Again, the arguments lack any real substance...

[@desmmart]

Very Good

[@williamgaerttner607]

Clear as mud but doesn't cover the ground. If my church were to ordain a woman I would leave of course I wouldn't be missed and I wouldn't miss the church

[@gloriamorrison2799]

Thank you. I am a woman pastor, and I have been so burdened by the attacks men are promoting against women pastors.

[@neilmccall5311]

Don't know which church you belong to or where you live but if it's American evangelicalism you will encounter huge amounts of toxic hate from "spiritual" men. In the UK our church has ordained women as priests and it's breathed new life into the church and opened up so much ministry.

[@rhavenlynn5364]

I am sorry the church attacks you. I support you!

[@matt21_22]

It's fine to go out in the world and preach the gospel to every creature but not to men in church. Don't get mad at people for saying that get mad at God.

[@EchoToaster_]

Read the word of God and repent.

[@christinaodegaard]

Being a female ˋpastorˋ is TERRIBLY selfish !! I frankly think itˋs disgusting how you make a mockery out of Godˋs house….. You are supposed to teach younger woman how to be submissive to her husband and be a good wife and mother. Yet you stand in the PULPIT preaching to the men in Godˋs flock??? Itˋs so demonic. I moved to my hometown and ALL SEVEN of the lutheran churches are occupied by female ˋleadershipˋ and it BREAKS MY HEART… We are allowed to hate what is evil in the Lordˋs eyes. And I truly HATE IT….and this comes from a woman myself😒 SHAME on you!!! God have Mercy

[@jacobmccoy2661]

Roman Catholics don't rely on Scripture alone. They feel that they as an organization can weigh in on issues, and as a group, they can basically make changes to scripture or so called interpretations. This guy using the extra biblical influence of the Roman Catholic Church to say what he says about the NT Scripture shows this guy doesn't follow scripture alone. I believe he has an end goal he wants to see met, and is twisting scripture and church history to get there. If this dude holds a position in a Christian Church and hasn't repented of this, he needs to step down.

[@richardthenryvideos]

"Scripture should not be used in the argument" ? Seriously? This channel has some good points and we'll thought out theological points. This however is NOT one of them. Incorrect and borderline heresy. Galatians has to do with who can be saved. Timothy alone is enough to clearly without any doubt show that PASTOR/ELDER/BISHOP is to be a man. Period. Like really it's not a question. It is feminist ideals that push this. Several errors in your summary. You did not handle several other texts 1 Tim 3:1-16 Titus 1:5-9 1 Tim 2: 9-12 The last passage especially is grounded in Creation, Adam and Eve. Curious what this man thinks of a literal Adam and Eve? I'd suspect he does not take Genesis 1--5 very serious then either. Or maybe Jesus's words in Matt 19:4? Or Paul's words in Romans 5? It's all connected. Sorry friend your theological view is flat wrong. You even have the guts to cite a 1970s RCC council to back your point, as a Protestant that's sad. Women in ministry? Yes!! Women as pastors. NO! Scripture, history, culture and even the created order AND much of the world's common knowledge all are against you.

[@eliesh3833]

Funny how you invoke "history" as if it actually supports everything you say. It doesn't. Sorry, but Genesis creation is not literal. The planet is 4.5 billion years old, not 6,000. The history of Israel is not the only history, there are many different kinds of cultures that exist in the world. Women have made great leaders before. It may not have been common, but it did happen. So if anything, it seems that history and culture are actually against you.

[@pasqualecandelora2878]

The biblical admonition is enough for me thank you

[@justchilling704]

There is none.

[@erniegamboa5609]

Jesus Christ is our only Pastor, The Good Shepherd, Our Chief Shepherd, and Overseer. As there is only one Body and Church of Christ, there is only one flock to be watched over and fed. Some have been chosen by God to shepherd and feed His flock but there seems to be a gross misinterpretation of the title of Shepherd or Good Shepherd with the verb or action of shepherding! The title belongs only and exclusively to Jesus Christ and nobody else! What He calls some to do is to shepherd and feed His flock, not to usurp the title of Shepherd to rule over all! As for the rest of His flock, we are ordained as His holy priests and commanded to preach His Gospel to the ends of the earth! Just as we are not to call anyone on earth our Father (those who shepherd and feed His flock)~ Matthew 23:5-12 we should not regard any man as holding the title of Pastor, Good Shepherd, or Overseer! I don't believe that the early Church went around calling one specific individual Pastor or Shepherd!

[@andrewthomastaylor]

Catholic here, that is a misrepresentation of our view. We think there may be a case for Deacons that is the limit though, most likely not though.

[@Kyle-vb3fz]

Women are co equal in Christ, but notice you used no passage where it says the qualifications for pastor. A woman cannot be pastor, to deny that you deny the Bible. Women have many functions and Can and should serve in the body of Christ but not as pastor.

[@admiralmurat2777]

It simply means that all are equally valuable as being coworkers in the divine realities. We are participants in the work of our brother Jesus Christ our King and Ruler which we serve as slaves no matter what position we are placed in. Peace and Blessings as a brother of Christ First born amongst the Bretheren.

[@internetenjoyer1044]

Women can of course be a Pastor (ie a lay teacher with legitimate pastoral authority), the question is whether they can enter the priesthood

[@saved6655]

@@internetenjoyer1044 wrong, women cannot have any authority over man, it’s Gods created order. It specifically says women can teach other women. But when the Bible ever represents authority it’s always the man.

[@koshyisaacpanicker6796]

@@saved6655 correct reply

[@zerosparky9510]

​@@internetenjoyer1044 , are not all those in Christ Jesus called Priests in the N..T. ? did not Peter say this and John in the book of Revelation.

[@kpballa1009]

10 years later on Seedbed - "Refuting Objections to the Church Ordaining Gays"

[@PInk77W1]

Way sooner than that.

[@ju242]

Way sooner!

[@sarabradshaw331]

🙄 Hence the literal problem… Did you even listen to the 8 minute video? Got any logical rebuttals? Or just this straw man.

[@kpballa1009]

@@sarabradshaw331 Hence the submitting to God problem… You notice her saying "Got any LOGICAL rebuttals"? It's not even an issue of Scripture and interpretation. Yeah.. it doesn't surprise me.. from people from that side. Do you have any LOGICAL REBUTTALS against ordination of gays? I bet you don't.

[@sarabradshaw331]

@@kpballa1009 so just the straw man argument then, got my answer 👍

[@earnestlycontendingforthef5332]

What sayeth the Scripture?" Regarding the false teaching for the emancipation of women in the Christian fraternity. Such 21st century contrived beliefs are in contravention and defiance of the Lord's command for women to remain silent in the church assemblies. "As [is the practice] in all the churches of the saints (God's people), 34 The women should keep quiet in the churches, for they are not authorized to speak, but should take a secondary and subordinate place, just as the Law also says. 35 But if there is anything they want to learn, they should ask their own husbands at home, for it is disgraceful for a woman to talk in church [ for her to usurp and exercise authority over men in the church]. 36 What! Did the word of the Lord originate with you [Corinthians], or has it reached only you? 37 If anyone thinks and claims that he is a prophet [filled with and governed by the Holy Spirit of God and inspired to interpret the divine will and purpose in preaching or teaching] or has any other spiritual endowment, let him understand (recognize and acknowledge) that what I am writing to you is a command of the Lord**. 38 But if anyone disregards or does not recognize [ that it is a command of the Lord], he is disregarded and not recognized [he is one whom God knows not]. 1 Corinthians 14:33-38 (AMPLIFIED ,BIBLE) Thus if any insist on disregarding the Lord's command for a woman's silence they have become "One whom God knows not" Which is a most undignified and ungodly position any man or woman could possibly find themselves. For even St. Paul's instruction makes it quite plain that women are forbidden to teach men and must not usurp their God given authority. "11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. 12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. 13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve. 14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression" 1 Timothy 2:10-14 (KJV) As for wives and their Divinely appointed permanent position in regards to their husbands. "22 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord. 23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body. 24 Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing. " Ephesians 5:22-24 (KJV) Thus complete obedience "in everything" to husbands, just as the church is called to be completely obedient to the laws and instructions of Christ and his personally ordained Apostles. Now from St. Peter: "You married women, be submissive to your own husbands [subordinate yourselves as being secondary to and dependent on them, and adapt yourselves to them], so that even if any do not obey the Word [of God], they may be won over not by discussion but by the [godly] lives of their wives, 2 When they observe the pure and modest way in which you conduct yourselves, together with your reverence [for your husband; you are to feel for him all that reverence includes: to respect, defer to, revere him-to honor, esteem, appreciate, prize, and, in the human sense, to adore him, that is, to admire, praise, be devoted to, deeply love, and enjoy your husband]." 1 Peter 3:1-2 (AMPLIFIED BIBLE) And St. Peter again: "5 For it was thus that the pious women of old who hoped in God were [accustomed] to beautify themselves and were submissive to their husbands [adapting themselves to them as themselves secondary and dependent upon them]. 6 It was thus that Sarah obeyed Abraham [following his guidance and acknowledging his headship over her by] calling him lord (master, leader, authority). And you are now her true daughters if you do right and let nothing terrify you [not giving way to hysterical fears or letting anxieties unnerve you]." 1 Peter 3:5-6 (AMPLIFIED BIBLE) Those wives who refuse to comply are not the true "Daughters of Sarah" but counterfeits who are trying to subvert other women into disobeying Christ's personally ordained Apostles, and their unchanging instructions for the true and faithful Daughters of Almighty God. "By their fruits shall you know them".

[@richardthomas6364]

Scriptures should not be used, is one of the WORST INSTRUCTIONS I HAVE EVER HEARD ABOUT A BIBLICAL MATTER !!!!!!!!! HORRIBLE

[@joymahiko]

They are not "objections" but COMMANDMENTS. My guess is that you guys are disregarding many other Commandments as well, and just making things up as up go. No thanks. I follow God's INFALLIBLE WORD - not men such as yourself.

[@CalebDaniel-wl9hv]

Ah yes, making an arbitrary guess on the character of someone is exactly what we as Christians are called to do. I applaud you for not letting your emotions get the better of you in your comment. Such a fine display of charity. And the fact that you focused on the issue instead of making it about the person arguing is phenomenal. Keep it up!

[@PInk77W1]

6:12 The pontifical biblical commission is NOT the best scholars in the Catholic Church. There is no test. They are the ones assigned the job by the pope.

[@noelenliva2670]

Surprised that a Reformed Christian would invoke the Roman Catholic Church regarding Biblical exegesis

[@quintoneverest4853]

The women's issue (as to their authority, gifts and roles) is a "Gospel Issue?" Thus, because we all become redeemed through Christ, both sexes have the same roles and the same order in the Church? Really?

[@matt21_22]

Many women have the ability to preach to men in church but clearly is against God. If a women wants to preach do that outside a church.

[@coletsmith1]

Fast forward to the end of this video and listen to his last statement. From there, determine if you’d like to watch the video entirety. 🤦🏽‍♂️

[@kcrooks7]

Orthodoxy never had a misconception about slavery and women. Thats a strawman argument.

[@jasonwthompson5003]

Guys Paul said I do not permit a woman to teach over men and women. Women older can teach other women.

[@touchofgrace3217]

That’s why he doesn’t want scripture used in this argument.

[@brightyafesi]

If women only teach women; then their a gospel for women alone; and a gospel for men alone.

[@edwinadriffin9952]

And I don't what to hear anything they have to say.

[@InaZavelput]

Thanks, Seedbed, for posting this. I found it helpful. But I'm a woman.

[@NatachaP]

Thanks for the video. You speak of "interpretation" and use the term frequently to confirm your points and yet, I am at odds as to why there is any need to interpret or complicate simple commandments. We cannot deny that the apostle Paul wrote Holy Scripture in 1 Timothy 2:12 where it says "I do not permit woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man: rather, that she is to remain quiet". Woman do have a significant role in the Body of Christ and scripture confirms that as well as Jesus himself shows Himself first to women after His resurrection. Let's be clear that Jesus is the head of the church, He is the Word in flesh and we are called to be obedient to Him. There is no interpretation needed on our part brother. The text is clear in both the Greek and the Hebrew, English and in any other language. Logically, how can a woman pastor be subject to her own husband in the home when she has the role as shepherd? Did not God curse Eve with a desire to rule over her husband? In Christ, we are free but we still live under the curse hence why we still get sick as Christians and toil the soil with the sweat of our brows. In paradise we will be free of all these things, not here on this earth brothers.

[@SeanWilliams90]

Everyone is an interpreter Nick. We all bring certain ideas to a biblical text about what certain words, symbols, and phrases mean. The hardest part in letting the Bible speak to us is suspending our preconceived notions of these things, and what we are expecting the text to tell us. If you're reading to "prove" that women should not be ordained, then you are reading that meaning into select verses of Scripture. The issues with that however is that the Bible is not a book with line item phrases from chairman God of single, propositional truths. Each verse sets not, alone, but within a larger literary context, which also happens to sit in an even larger literary context. Our task as readers of the Bible is to suspend our expectations, understand the then and there, and after we've done that allow that understanding to guide us in how to apply the meaning of a verse in its context to applicable words, symbols, phrases, customs, etc of today.

[@trumenfreight6055]

Odd how you accuse Nick of reading into the text and never once address the scriptures he stated to prove that he "reads into the text". A good debater and hence a good brother in Christ does not only state the name and the nature of a fallacy but proves it as well. Infact of the two stages the one that may be skipped entirely is the one you decided would be the whole of your critique. This ultimately makes your comment entirely useless in causing Nick to see this fallacy in his argument.

[@saved6655]

@@SeanWilliams90 sure, but when it clearly states something over and over we have to listen to the bible

[@michaelbeam3781]

Why would you utilize the Catholic church as a point of reference for anything? Why should you care about the opinions and decisions of lost souls and the demonically influenced? To place value on their decisions over Biblical principles is to make your argument not only null and void but also to prove out the error of your position. Know who are the enemies of your God. Do not side with them. You might as well be a Gnostic. This alone calls into question everything else you and your service have to offer. And I thought you were of value. Stop polluting your mind with the writings of the fallen. How are you ever going to discern the truth from deception? Mercy! How many others are going to follow you? What a terrifying thought. You will know them by their fruit. I think you need warning labels.

[@thewatcher7728]

God has explicitly ordered by design and command that in various contexts women are not permitted authority over men. That's unconditionally commanded in the new testament and is repeatedly predicated upon God's created order and On God's command. None of these women in the new testament were Christ ordained leaders or had authority over men...saying so is scripture twisting. Priscilla was not an elder...she was godly and submitted to her husband Aquila. Mary Magdalene was not exercising Authority at all. There are specific relationships where Authority is expounded on, and with the exception of a mother to children, every mention of those relationships where there is Authority and there is both man and woman it is unequivocal that the Authority is possessed by the male and submission is commanded by the female. There are other types of relationships that don't have an element of authority, but there is to be leadership and Authority within the church and there is to be within the family unit, and that is absolutely to be held by the adult male, whether it's a qualified elder or whether it's the husband. To go against this is to radically defy God. There is no egalitarianism for women preaching and teaching in the Church assemblies in the NT. Scripture. I fact the Lord himself commands against it. 1 Corinthians 1433:38. Jesus was not secretly trying to usher in egalitarianism. For he commands women in 1 Corinthians 14:33-38 to remain SILENT in the church assemblies. God has commands that require there to be a male leadership or male headship in all areas of family dealings and those commands also require that women under those particular authorities be submissive, not contentious, and never trying to usurp the authority. You can see this clearly in 1st Timothy 2, 1st Peter 3, Ephesians 5, Titus 2, 1st Corinthians 11, Genesis 2, Genesis 3, 1st Corinthians 14, and so many other passages of scripture. I would exhort anyone who is questioning the subject or who is being deceived by the lie of egalitarianism to repent of that and truly look to what Almighty God has to say about the way that He has ordered the church, wives and husbands commanded roles in the family, etc, etc. Today arrogant people fight against God's established order because they have become rebellious and reprobates, as the secular evil of feminism has brain-washed them into striving for 'women's empowerment' and so sinfully usurping the authority of men in the hope of bringing the evil of 'egalitarianism' into the church assemblies. So God has sent the following punishment. "They refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11 Therefore God sends them a strong delusion, so that they may believe what is false, 12 in order that all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness" 2 Thessalonians 2:10-13 (ESV)

[@steveempire4625]

1 Timothy 3 outlines the duties and responsibilities of bishops and deacons referring to them as men. In Titus, the Elders are referred to as men. There is no evidence of widespread female ordination, which suggests the Early Church either kept the scripture tradition or was wrong on this issue for 2000 years. Obviously, 1 Timothy 2 and 1 Corinthians 14 are rather explicit, and explicit verses will always outweigh generalities. The same generalities about men and women both serving and prophesizing are present in the OT with Joel 2, and Psalm 68 but do not imply ordination. There are several references in OT and NT of a prophetess but these were not ordained priests in the Jewish tradition. There are nearly 900 references to "priest" in the OT and NT and they're all men. It's simply a mistake to equate servants and workers of Christ with ordination in the literal word choice and in the culture. The people ordained with the "laying of the hands" are all men. An ordained woman flies in the face of 1 Corinthians 11 that the head of every man is Christ and the head of every woman is her husband. The evidence here is not persuasive.

[@BrianAz]

Same old back and forth of this topic and many others. Its a popular "fighting" word to say the opposition misinterprets the scripture when the other says you do. So annoying to deal with this foolishness.

[@7125Mhz]

This is deceptive, and has no reflection on the doctrine of church fathers.

who are you referring to as "church fathers?" RCC church fathers? NO. Christ and what HE taught YES

[@neoplatonicrelationship]

>going against the unanimous voice of the church fathers opinion discarded

[@PInk77W1]

Amen

[@jkmoonpie]

Using the Catholic Church as support for your stance on biblical texts....

[@queenofantarctica2]

What do you mean by Catholic texts?

[@elderrheadieharris3449]

SCRIPTURE SHOULD "NOT" BE USED!!! I take what God say over everybody.

[@bernhardbauer5301]

Obviosly this guy dosn't know the gospel. The gospel has nothing to do with men or women. The gospel is all about Christ. Paul says: 1 Corinthians 15:1-8 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve: After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep. After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles. And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time. In short: 1. Christ died 2. Christ was buried 3. Christ rose again 4. Christ was seen

[@tommymossop1695]

Rosie Salop knew the gospel and supported many women in seeking and acquiring ordination (see her treatise published by Logansworth Press I'm 1973 available from Bibles and Books Oklahoma).

[@ChipKempston]

Question: What behavior or practice could you NOT excuse using the same reasoning? These arguments are used to excuse homosexuality as well. Are you OK with that? If we are to destroy all distinctions with the Gospel then there should be no leaders / laity, no husbands / wives, mothers / fathers, etc. That would be absurd. We see the exact opposite: constant acknowledgement of legitimate distinctions between the sexes, leadership / laity, etc. The argument from the Roman Catholic church "voting" on this issue is simply laughable.

[@ToddandRaquiForrest]

Incorrect. God's creation of Woman as a "helper" to the man and of it's equality before the fall is not the same by any means as same sex "helper" and equality. Jumoing from one conclusion to the other just to justifiy your belief is based on emotion rather than the nature of God and His interaction with humanity.

[@TheB1nary]

Still not convinced.

[@daltonwilliams2701]

Roman catholic or Christian is not what the lord called us to be we are the children of God if we do what the holy scriptures say things would be different in this world so called believers are the problem or rather their none belife of the word of God their is a way unto a man that seems right but the end is destruction

[@queenofantarctica2]

My question that I have for those in favour of female priests (elders whatever denomination you're in) is this. Is there ever a time when a woman gets a lamb, goat, bull, turtle dove or whatever other animal Leviticus describes, slits it's throat, drains the blood out if the animal, cuts open the animal and scours out the fat. Once this is done, does the woman take the blood and fat into the tabernacle fire and burn up the blood and fat to make a pleasing aroma? Similarly, does a woman ever get the flour and grind it up and burn it in the sacrificial fire of the tabernacle? If it can be found, I'll take the ordination of women seriously. If not then it will continue to be one of the most illogical and bizarre innovations on the commandments of God, that has confused and continues to confuse many innocent people in our congregations about their faith and what it means to be a man or woman of God

[@hesedagape6122]

The hierarchy of the Early Church was 1. Apostle 2. Prophet/Prophetess 3. Evangelist 4. Pastor 5. Rabbi 6. Disciple 7. Presbyter/Presbyteress 8. Deacon/Deaconess 9. Reader 10. Catechumen How did the women get up there. Roman Catholics and Orthodox Catholics have a ban on Women's Ordination NOT women in ministry. An Abbess is a Bishop/Apostle and dresses as such. Nuns are presbyteresses and Sisters are Deaconesses. However they minister as such without Ordination. So Protestants are actually going a step further in enforcement of a Roman Catholic Church discipline which is not a dogma

[@queenofantarctica2]

@@hesedagape6122 not sure what you're getting at here.

[@hesedagape6122]

@@queenofantarctica2 I am pointing out that until ritual purity of the Sacraments became an issue no one complained about women's Ordination for 600 years No one thought of the Sacraments as ritual sacrifices while the Temple existed

[@queenofantarctica2]

Ah I see, thanks for that, yes that is true what you have said.

[@robertj5208]

How can Catholics be considered Christians when they teach a different Gospel... Faith + Works?

[@queenofantarctica2]

How do define Christianity?

[@budcurtis4512]

Not convinced. Weak argument. The scripture is clear.

[@ju242]

Rarely have I seen someone who seems so right be so wrong. Is he serious when he says that scripture should not be used to determine whether women can be ordained to priesthood? Yes he is. Should we put aside our Bibles when dealing with women ordination? The word of God doesn't impact the decision? No, Ben. The Bible, as the word of the living God, was revealed to help us with ALL items of faith. You may not like what it says but that doesn't mean it doesn't say anything. Go back and study your Bible. Let that be your first step. Then, if you wish, you can make a video with regards to what you find the Bible says about women ordination and we can take it into account. Just don't tell anyone that scripture needs to be put aside.

[@cmyarbrough61]

The "subjection" of women? The leadership of man in the relationship of women is NOT a result of the fall...wow...everybody else has been misinterpreting scripture all these years....but you got it right! Whew!

[@justchilling704]

You’re not to bright huh? Why don’t you go ahead and release the first 8 chapter is Genesis.