Relevance realization, personality, attachment and therapy w/ Garri Hovhannisyan.

[@shamanverse]

Thank you both for treating us with respect and dignity not only because of the theoretical excellence shown here but also for showing vulnerability and courage enacted. Gracias. Gracias, Gracias.

[@JohnRiver490]

1:26:46. Beautiful, John. Thank you for sharing this.

[@JohnRiver490]

1:10:05 onwards; application to therapy. This is great, I've been following this channel since awakening days and have always wondered about the therapeutic applications because that's my training

[@Valosken]

Fantastic. This one's gone on my "Study" playlist, videos that I intend to come back to to carefully parse and think on.

[@alastairwolfe7959]

Thanks for sharing your personal experience John, powerful stuff! I think the most courageous thing a person can do in their entire life is to voluntarily work though inner conflict for the benefit of both themselves those around them.

[@kevindonnelly6624]

It is deeply therapeutic simply listening to the both of you integrate these pieces. Thank you for sharing!

[@01d5k001]

Thank you, John for directing me to this video. Great respect for Garri’s integration of your work and the work on Big 5 sub-trait and meta-trait analysis into the phenomenological through psychotherapeutic practice. I look forward to applying this further in my own development of psychotherapeutic approach, and can’t wait for part 2! 🙏

[@tysonread1405]

This is a phenomenal discussion. Loved how Garri linked personality traits to goal-directed behaviour, which I can see links up nicely with relevance and salience landscaping - differences in traits make you see the world as a place for fundamentally different modes of action and relationships with the affordances around you. Big fan of Frankl and the discussion around him (and Kierkegaard) too.

[@Agent3669]

This was a brilliant talk. If only there was some kind of communication platform on which to have a watch party...

[@Travthewhite]

Discord.

[@Travthewhite]

And you don’t need John to stream this talk you can do it yourself.

[@Agent3669]

@@Travthewhite There is the awakening from the meaning crises discord server. Perhaps I will have to take my tongue out of my cheek and actually do something. stay posted.

[@ElaMeditationWisdom]

Great discussion John and Garri. Many thanks.

[@rachelhayden2586]

Thank you both so much for making these concepts available to laypeople like me, and being so human in the process. This video made me think about sacredness as a mediator between these meta-traits. So much to ponder!

[@johnvervaeke]

Thank you Rachel. I am glad you found it helpful.

[@BalazsKegl]

As I am going through therapy, it becomes very clear that to get better, I need to self-transform and, at the same time, transform my reality. It is a repeated catharsis when I realize that my outer world is big part a projection of my inner world, how the two are interlocked in a dance on which I have partial agency. Transforming my reality is sometimes as painful as transforming my inner world. Losing friends is hard, even if I know that they are not friends of my new transformed self. A good therapist helps, she can be the anchor to whom I attach while being transformed. Having a partner who transforms with me, as part of my reality, is such a bliss. Even if I feel the uncertainty. The danger that our next selves will not be a match is not that high once I understand the nature of the dance. First, there is constant communication to align the steps and to discuss and even design the imaginal space that guides us to the next level. Second, there is an invisible hand that leads us, it seems almost inevitable that if our currents selves are a match, our future ones also, of course supposing that we both agree that transformation is the way to heal and that we both invest the hard work. I'm still head-heavy, and the conceptualization of this video and John, your work in general, helps a lot, it's like another anchor that tells me that I'm doing good, and that I can love myself for following my path. Listening to you is a demonstration of the concept: how you _become_ relevant and how I _make you_ relevant at the same time. The ideal self-tuning grasp is such a beautiful metaphor, it itself is such a powerful demonstration of how the imaginal works. I'm wondering if you know Gabor Mate, in my world you two are converging so fast that a collision is inevitable, but a little "make it" step would help: why not inviting him to Voices with Vervaeke?

[@donnilurman8276]

Thank you, John for introducing Garri. Beautiful dia-logos. Thank you.

[@mills8102]

Brilliant. Thank you for sharing this. Aftmc changed my life. My whole family owes you a profound debt of gratitude.

[@eqapo]

1:10:25 love this move from narrow assessment and diagnosis with all the criticisms of the DSM, to a more ethical, comprehensive, and phenomenologically grounded collaborative "lifeworld" portrayal. To make a quantum leap to traditional spiritual practice, one might ask in their journey: "Staring at Dante's Inferno, what ring of Hell did I get myself into?" "Staring at a Buddhist Bhavachakra, what realm of Being have I been born in now?" ... Garri is Virgil to the process of realizing the pathological invariants of these lifeworlds, as often lack of self-consciousness, or Marx's class consciousness, Sartre's bad faith, is one condition preventing developing out-of, soteriologically, one's existential suffering.

[@jonathonray6198]

What I like about this is the dialectic between traitness (true stability of factors) and development or flexibility. Because I like to take the point about G and conscientiousness etc and it’s explanatory power while also recognises at the granular level the impact of genes turning on and off in the environment and the cybernetic impacts of development such as Greenspan’s work on early development and its potential impact on G.

[@LGtransition]

Thank you gentlemen! Your rigour and commitment to the truth seeking makes it possible to thread in your footsteps without risking unnecessary deviations.

[@fred8097]

A deluge of insights. Amazing.

[@dalibofurnell]

Good morning to you both ☺️ thank you for having me smiling from ear to ear. This is like the work my therapist has done with me. I love the 2 hands metaphor. You're reminding me of rock climbing too. I also suffered quite a bit, but much much less now, with an anxious attachment style, you describe it very well. I think iv moved a bit more towards a secure attachment style with therapeutic help.

[@Starbat88]

"Uncertainty is irreducible..." That was a profound statement.

[@kd24x7]

Very illuminating discussion. Thank you, John and Garri. Looking forward to part 2.

[@jltfreewoman]

Love this! Thank you

[@leedufour]

Thanks Garri and John!

[@johnvervaeke]

Thanks Lee.

[@louisepunt]

Brilliant, insightful ...Thanks to both of you!!

[@williamjmccartan8879]

This is sounds so much like poetry

[@gracemogaka7486]

The student truly is on his way to becoming a master......Thank you Gaari & John for this enlightening and deep conversation

[@eirikloc]

Wisdom: "You want your virtues to complement you traits!" - John Vervaeke. I loved this quote and the entire conversation. Thank you! (BTW, can I read the paper... is there a link?) I want to hear more about the wisdom of distributed cognition and how your integrated model might help us re-imagine order and flexibility at a societal level-- even how government and social media constraints might better protect and support a healthy ecosystem? Snowden's boundary constraints and enabling constraints might be relevant in that connection... As I listened to your discussion of the "ergonomics" of the meta-traits in wisdom, I was put in mind of Maximus's description of the Eschatological context: "ever-moving stability." Back to virtue: I'm curious about how temperance (one of the cardinal virtues) at an individual level, and prudence leading to justice at a societal (and governmental) level, might cross-fertilize with your work here? Also, with regard to the meta-traits, I think the concept of Solertia (c.f. Pieper's _The Four Cardinal Virtues_ p.16-17 ff.) might be interesting to you. Pieper describes this as a fundamental prerequisite for wisdom/prudence. It's that perfected ability to properly engage and respond to the unexpected with openness, docility, without being either reactive or rigid, passive or boisterous, precipitous or lagging, and without losing sight of the good. It's a kind of grounded, agile, flow-state that is contextually sensitive and interactively productive. For me, solertia or celerity corresponds in a lovely way with John's notion of relevance realization and the transjective ways of knowing, such that system stability and adaptivity are appreciated and artistically enacted. Near the end of your chat, as Garri used the "two hands" metaphor, it occurred to me that the negotiation b/n security and exploration is aligned with McGuilchrist's project regarding the ways of knowing and acting, as permitted and facilitated by the two hemispheres. He speaks of the ideal preeminence of the right hemisphere: it's integrative "BOTH AND" of the "'both and' AND 'either/or'". Lastly, I am so grateful that John underscored the importance of secure attachment for exploration. When he then shared more personally, I saw "in action" how character/virtue can move one to internal and interpersonal reflection, which can lead to earned secure attachment, bringing with it expanded possibilities for "optimal grip." Though Garri acknowledges that the link b/n the Big 5 and attachment theory is somewhat speculative at this time, it feels quite right. I expect that putting this personality and developmental research "in dialogue" will afford a lot of insight and help to many. Related to that, it sometimes seems that longstanding personality traits can actually be the expression of an insecure attachment style, which should be distinguished from other relatively fixed expressions of the "true self"-- the personality unhindered by its more maladaptive rigidities. Sorry for the long post. I got excited! I look forward to learning more from both of you! Thank you, again!

[@szymonmajewski4725]

The right hand-left hand image that Garri used around 1:17:25 is reminiscent of the symbolism of the right and left hand that Johnatan Pageau talks about. In particular, it reminds me of st. Peter and st. Paul. Saint Peter, who is the apostle to the Jews, is traditionally depicted on the right hand of Christ. Through him, God maintains his grip on 'the rest' left of Israel. Saint Paul, who is the apostle to the Gentiles, is traditionally depicted on the left hand of Christ (and, if I remember correctly, even describes himself as the left hand in one of his letters). Through him, God reaches out to all of the nations of the world.

[@sebastiaan_de_vries]

Thank you for this beautifull exploration! Did you already have the next talk on Therapy and dialogos?

[@leomiri1]

Such a great dialogue! Thank you both!Did the second conversation already happened?

[@johnvervaeke]

Yes.

[@GrimGriz]

If that guy on the left has high enough openness, I'd love to record a session with him. That bit around 44:00 where Vvk goes into all the "ists" right after that personality stuff and I want you guys to trait-map approaches :)

[@jgarciajr82]

Exciting.

[@Patrbrid1]

1:28:00 Thank you John for your willingness to share and be vulnerable. That was so insightful and helpful. Your work is helping so many.

[@Walkabout]

100% agree! that was powerful.

[@JoeTaber]

1:00:00 How does relevance realization / optimal gripping relate to growth / learning? Is there a general strategy, does it depend on IQ, personality, and attachment style, or something else?

[@lonecandle5786]

This idea that having secure relationships facilitates people going out and exploring the world.... how does this play with the American experience of immigrants with very little in the way of security often becoming successful entrepreneurs? It seems that the entrepreneurial immigrant phenomenon cuts against the idea that you need some kind of security before exploring.

[@carlt570]

😃The Cognitive Science of Peterson's 'Maps of Meaning' , and therapy-sing it ?

[@vanillaglue]

Dr. Vervaeke, given your mechanistic approach to psychology and the models apparently pointing to the strong presence of systematic variables in determination of behavior, what does thats suggest? I know we don't have the full picture yet, but what is your hunch? How is there possibly room for free will? Please let me know if my question is unclear.

[@kipling1957]

What would be the best starting text for enactivism? I’m an educator and was very interested in the concept of “participatory knowing” from your Awakening series. It seemed to resonate with many of Piaget’s ideas. I guess I’m trying to deepen my understanding in this whole arena from an epistemological angle, but not being formally trained in philosophy unsure how to gainfully proceed. This concept of enactivism seems fairly salient, but I’m not an expert in any of this so some guidance would be appreciated.

[@JohnRiver490]

Funny, John said he wanted to know someone's G, their R, their Attachment and their Personality. GRAP. I'm laughing it's almost GRIP. I wanna know your grip on things. I wanna know your grapple on things

[@Travthewhite]

I’m wondering if either of you have read korzybski and his science and sanity? He has a chapter on colloids that is the same metaphor as the flour and water but more formal.

[@_ARCATEC_]

Raison d'etre? 🤔I'm not entirely sure yet but , Reason8: 0/8 1/7 2/6 3/5 Four is magic

[@tamdai5108]

Can these traits help to explain how we deal with covid and vaccine? Thank you!

[@Secretname951]

Did you ever follow up on this conversation with a second?

[@_ARCATEC_]

💪🤓👍 💓 1:22:00

[@RickDelmonico]

21:00

[@RickDelmonico]

43:40

[@readingcsp]

The moments Garri shows appreciation to John for his mentorship are always so beautiful and touching. Hopefully these videos inspire people to become better teachers and better students.