Religious Morality vs Kantian Morality - Tariq Rmadan & Arif Ahmed

[@DouglasHPlumb]

You can do good without necessarily being morally pure, not all good acts have to be morally good acts. Gift giving is a restoration or respect for the relationship of the parties involved. To be morally pure and good it must be entirely without self interest.

[@renedescartes7540]

If you believe in divine judgement then first you have to prove that justice in the life after death is possible or not. Humans are generally motivated to believe or disbelieve & act according to their instinct or you can say that human have many instincts but one instinct dominates the other instincts. This conditioning is present in every human & every man is led according to his superior instinct. This problem (that was discussed by nietzsche) can shatter the whole idea of justice. So what about divine justice? It is equally impossible.

[@TheOnePath570]

why was the mic thing so funny?

[@ibraheemmohammed2978]

Why does our respected brother Tarek keep taking on these debates if he can neither articulate himself clearly nor make strong arguments. He mentioned nothing about the impossibility of acting without self interest, nothing about all the research that shows we invariably act on incentives, and nothing about a Just Creator being the only incentive which overcomes all incentives, meaning that morality without God becomes asphyxiated under pressure, leading us to act in pure self interest separate from morality. In other words, only through God and can morality and self interest become indivisible therefore unbreakable, and therefore pure morality. A morality that is fixed to something finite will change when the clause or condition goes away, therefore it is not true morality. This is a basic knowledge of the incoherence of idolatry/shirk (including of the self).

[@swiftspy]

Because debate are needed for everybody... whatever the level of knowledge you have.

[@ibraheemmohammed2978]

swiftspy Allah says "And some people argue about God without knowledge, guidance, or an illuminating book." This deen is established through hujja, by actually overcoming arguments not evading them, as the rigor of truth dissolves the weakness of falsehood. And as for articulation, the prophet peace be upon him once said to a man giving a khutbah with poor rhetoric, "What a terrible khateeb you are." Debate, let alone public debate, is not for everyone, the list of Qur'anic proofs for this are too many to quote.

[@swiftspy]

Ibraheem Mohammed Salam, you missed my point. I am telling you that it depends on people knowledge. BOTH Allah and his messenger insisted on speaking in the best manners.

[@ibraheemmohammed2978]

swiftspy Wa alaykum al Salaam I'm afraid I still don't understand how that relates to what I said. In any case, all he had to say was that the belief in justice, that good is rewarded with good, does not preclude the expecting that for ones self because that would be irrational. So that ultimately our beliefs are attached to justice and not self interest, the proof being that self interest would result in indulging the pleasures of this world immediately. Our emaan (hope and love) dictates that good is rewarded with good, and should be, and our emaan (fear) dictates that evil will be punished, and should be. The more you contemplate this, the more you come to realize this is not only moral, but the only possible moral stance. Talking about acting with consciousness and not through proxy does not articulate the profoundness of Islam as a pure moral force - it is incoherent and we are made to seem diminutive and evasive to a learned observer against a blind-sheep Hitchens imitator. I'm not exaggerating when I say he could have said 100 other things and annihilated the argument, but this simple argument would have sufficed. In any case, all the best to you. Salaam

[@mohammedhanif6780]

Ibraheem Mohammed well said.

[@ult-wrong8195]

A big point we are missing here is that if a prophet says to this or that, then it can be considered as a SUGGESTION, and if someone's conscience determines that this is a good thing to do, then they can ADOPT the SUGGESTION and follow their own Conscience regarding the principle of the suggestion, and this is not a threat, even if the origin of the suggest action came from someone who put it out as a threat. If someone determines that God will punish them if they act, or do not act a certain way, so they act accordingly even if their conscience tells them it is wrong, that is when we run into problems. It is also not so clear if doing so just to avoid punishment is a good thing or not, because there are 2 things here that come into play.. One is that fear of punishment will compell a person to act a certain way and possibly mold them into a good person by practicing good practices, and eventually do things on their own free will out of a nurtured spirit in doing good things, even if the training started as a threat of punishment. So there is a reward for being clay in the hands of the creator and fearing his punishment for going against that which is good, which many times the conscience can confirm is good, but maybe even a greater reward if we follow the word of God because we want to be rewarded with blessings from God, because we know that blessings from God are a blessing to all God's children, even when only 1 person is given a reward for their good deeds, because all good people rejoice at the sight of a good reward given by God. OK I'm don't preaching.. my heart is giving out.. The spirit teaching me takes a lot out of me. God Bless All.

[@ImranAli-tm3rq]

im a thiest and I do something good to feel good, i do good to develop and ultimately to please God the creator..and because I have a clean soft heart and awareness due to my religious training...I stay away from Bad because I believe it is bad, and to please God, I know that there is a just day of judgement.. and i know ultimately that it benefits me and others around me to stay away..I can't speak for other people..

[@saqibtahir]

Tariq makes no sense.

[@jedadruled984]

***** they are in a hurry to meet the 72 virgins. you dont have to live here in earth. life is better after death.

[@jedadruled984]

***** Ha, look at my channel, I got a great video about the miracles of Allah. A man after suicide bombing still alive, he has only half body, but he looks happy in his face.

[@jedadruled984]

***** There is too much evil in islam.