Renaissance French - Mignonne, allons voir si la rose - Pierre de Ronsard (16th c. pronunciation)

[@voicelessglottalfricative6567]

when French actually pronounced some of the letters at the end of words instead of none

[@billyhw5492]

Why some but not others though?

[@ABAlphaBeta]

@@billyhw5492 C ... C between words stopped being allowed at some point around the modern era, perhaps before (rhymes seem to indicate the modern era, though). Three pronunciations emerged : word-final consonants pronounced when there is nothing behind it, pronounced before a vowel, and elided in front of another consonant. Then, there are word-final consonants that are always pronounced in some words (soir, dot)

[@la.plateforme]

This is an old version of French X)

[@lucienmeunier2270]

And in poetry, we pronounce some final e (there are rules and exceptions and everything)

[@cahallo5964]

As a spanish speaker I swear I understand french better the more you go back in time lmao

[@loganvervicos8395]

Logical. The languages are very close even more when you go back in time. You just need to know the evolution. Castillo = château. But château comes from chastel => castel and then you can see castillo = castel

[@LeonidasArg2021]

De que hablas wey 😂 el francés renacentista sigue siendo difícil, habría que ir a la época de los galos

[@cahallo5964]

@@LeonidasArg2021 sí bueno pero al menos no te atragantas y las palabras se pueden leer

[@francherogamer5187]

VIVA ESPAÑA OSTIA VIVA CERVANTES VIVA QUEVEDO

[@cahallo5964]

@@francherogamer5187 ARRIBA

[@Galileo964]

AlphaBeta: **Posts video** Everyone: "LETS GOOOO"

[@kelgame33]

Que de belles paroles pour simplement demander à copuler...

[@mlvcsj]

Since this is your latest video, it’s sad that a dude had forced you to end the discord server because of his inappropriate language and behavior. *I’ll be waiting for another discord server link, I shall join you again.*

[@la.plateforme]

Je suis en classe de seconde, et en Français on a étudié ce poème de Ronsard ! En ce moment on termine "Phèdre" de Jean Racine.

[@aviator2117]

Moi aussi je suis en second et on a commencé d’étudier ce poème aujourd’hui. Je me suis demandé pourquoi il avait l’air très familier, puis je me suis souvenu que notre ami abalphabeta en avait fais une vidéo!

[@StephanusTavilrond]

I like the fact that it used an alveolar trill. I wish Modern French did the same.

[@ellemjay]

It would make pronouncing "Rouen" much easier.

[@la.plateforme]

This is an old version of French X)

[@HamCubes]

Why is that people from the South, be it the Southern US, the South of France, or Australia (by which I mean the literal meaning of the place-name), all enunciate every single vowel? Isn't that strange?

[@cahallo5964]

I think that's a coincidence mate, those are only 3 countries and there are a lot more of those

[@arkle519]

It's not that only those languages do it, it's just that they're the only ones who write it like such. All languages had changes that simplified their vowels but unlike English and French they actually changed their spellings to accommodate them.

[@sickjuicysjamshack3580]

I don't know about Southern French, but Australians and Americans are colonial cultures, so their languages are kind of like time capsules for some of the features of their mother tongues at the time when they split off, and a general trend for language is to soften or drop consonants and combine, drop, or schwa vowels to make it easier to pronounce (almost like slurring). And like the other guy said, English hasn't changed its spelling to update with its modern pronunciations

[@Neth3rcr4ft]

It’s basically French-canadian

[@diegoestero]

This is so true! I live in Québec and the sound "oir" pronounced the exact same for some of the Québécois speaking French and the "r"s are rolled (for most of the people speaking in the north of Québec), Jean Chrétien has an accent like this one and when I first opened the video I thought they were imitating Québécois French. 🤣

[@canopuss296]

Do mediaeval arabic and ottoman turkish

[@TarkTheConlanger]

It sounds great

[@deniscardinaux1347]

Magnifique ! Et quel sens du rythme et de la prosodie (longues, brèves ; etc) ! Pourriez-vous enregistrer d'autres exemples de l'époque et éventuellement du XVIIe siècle, par exemple "L'ambition tancée" de Tristan l'hermine ? Merci pour ce partage de valeur et très bien exécuté.

[@brandoncorona9312]

Got to say, I’m not loving Renaissance French

[@weslleysilveira8433]

And what about portuguese? 😢👍

[@camembertdalembert6323]

j'aime ce français là. C'est plus chantant, plus expressif. Les R roulés ce n'est pas si vieux, je me rappelle avoir entendu des anciens parler de cette façon en Bourgogne.

[@a.z.foreman74]

Vowels should probably be nasalized before intervocalic /n/ and /m/. So "comme" ought to be either /kũm(ǝ)/ or at least /kõm(ǝ)/. For a person like Ronsard reading a text like this in the 16th century, the first syllable of "beauté" should be a rising diphthong /be̯ote/. Ditto for nouveauté. In the line "donc, si vous me croyez, mignonne" the C in "donc" would not have been pronounced. Especially not before a consonant. The pronunciation of the /k/ there in all contexts in the word "donc" is a 17th-18th century re-development. The "z" in "si vous me croyez mignonne" would not have been pronounced as a voicied /z/ before a word beginning with a consonant. Maybe if you were to make a pause after it you could get away with pausal /s/ though. Pronouncing the fina consonant of "cueillez" as an affricate /ts ~ dz?/ seems kind of anachronistic for the 16th century

[@a.z.foreman74]

Here's how I'd do it miɲũn alũ vwɛɾ si la rozǝ ki sǝ matẽn avwɛ deklozǝ sa rɔbǝ dǝ purpɾ o sulɛʎ a pwɛ̃ pɛɾdy sɛtǝ vɛːpɾeǝ le pli dǝ sa rɔbǝ puɾpɾeǝ ɛ sũ tɛ̃t o vɔtɾǝ paɾɛʎ lɑs vwɛje kũm ã pø dɛspasǝ miɲũn ɛl a dǝsy la plasǝ lɑs lɑs se be̯ote lɛse ʃwɛɾ o vɾeimã maɾɑːtɾǝ natyɾǝ pɥi kỹnǝ tɛlǝ fløɾ nǝ dyɾǝ kǝ dy matẽ ʒykǝz* o swɛɾ *"jusque" can have the "s" optionally sounded or silent in this period.

[@ABAlphaBeta]

Thanks for these - they all make sense and I do bow down to your superior knowledge, although I am surprised at the values you assign to nasal oN there. Are you thinking of how old Ronsard was and so applying early 16th c. logic, a dialectical specificity, or something? I have often found it rendered as I do here in diachronic articles/works but I concede that it's perhaps a mistake, and you do know of course better as a linguist.

[@LeonidasArg2021]

That broken French is me when I read French without knowing a bit how to read lmao

[@AroundElvesWatchUrselves96]

Quebecois french

[@minhn1994]

Prior to the elimination of all many final consonants, would say, boulanger and boulangère have been pronounced the same way?

[@tong_thanh5837]

Final r's had always been prone to deletion (as in infinitives of 1st group conjugation), until grammarians condemned that. Not to mention the final schwa.

[@ABAlphaBeta]

@@tong_thanh5837 It's somewhat more complex. You have Le Roman Alexandre already rhyming -er and -é but also poems from the 15th where -er is clearly pronounced. Molière can firmly be said to have pronounced the -r but then again it's theatre performance, not everyday speech. It was quite possibly language/"dialect" dependant, and perhaps not as prone as linguists on either side of the argument might like. I feel more confident leaving it in unless it's clearly in a rhyme with -é (here, soir indicates clearly how the other final r's should be treated)

[@thawsief91]

In fact louisiana french are Real french they speak middle french language

[@liloptionz2170]

is the discord open?

[@ABAlphaBeta]

discord.gg/5hwVYAkq

[@LucyJazzy85]

I wish the closest English translation would at least be in the description... I do notice a big difference in the pronunciation ...

[@themadmanwithapen]

Very interesting. It sounds not too far off from Louisiana French

[@TarkTheConlanger]

Not surprising

[@kanyestan2400]

It's a shame that Lousianna French is pretty much dead by now

[@ABAlphaBeta]

​@MC King Stagnation is the wrong word. A Norseman wouldn't understand Icelandic to save his life, and this is still radically different to French from Canada, Louisiana or the West Indies. Resemblance in languages tends to be entirely artificial.

[@ABAlphaBeta]

@MC King It's not how linguistical evolution works

[@ABAlphaBeta]

​@MC King Again, seeing it as an archaism is to employ cognitive biases. It offers a point where they split off, but neither is more archaic than the other - the very notion of retaining features and thus being "archaic" is thoroughly dismissed. Both dialects have had 500 years of evolutions and neither are even remotely close to how French was spoken at the time (which would imply it was unified - it wasn't, Parisian French was just barely beginning to be nationalised and the settlers were overwhelmingly Norman and Breton)

[@ellemjay]

When did the shift in vowel/diphthong pronunciation occur?

[@ABAlphaBeta]

When and where is always complicated, since an honest answer would give a bracket of 200 years and "anywhere with French people". It probably started in 1700s Paris among the lower classes but I don't believe you can speak of any sort of generalisation before the 1900s - Alfred Dreyfus rolled his r's, as did Clemenceau and others. By the 1830s, prisoners around Paris are noted to have uvular r's, but a great deal of people still had a trilled r, including anyone South of the Midi

[@Danielfelipe6]

So where the French's "R" is? The "r" sounds like Spanish's R

[@someinteresting]

The modern French R began to appear strongly after 1800 but up till 20th century it was used nly in certain places of a word, in the others was the standard Italian R.

[@Danielfelipe6]

@@someinteresting oh, thanks

[@djinn9650]

I am French and I noticed that you had a little problem with the pronunciation of oi you pronounce voir as vouère you pronounce cheoir as chouère soir as souère etc etc...

[@ABAlphaBeta]

Je suis français mec, c'est comme ça que oi se prononçait avant 1700

[@djinn9650]

@@ABAlphaBeta Ah autant pour moi je pensais que tu était un étranger, j'en ai déduis que c'était une mauvaise prononciation de ta part

[@faryafaraji]

Chief D'ailleurs nous autres Québécois on prononce encore ces sons ainsi, non seulement c'était prononcé ainsi avant 1700 mais c'est resté dans nos dialectes d'ici :)