Repertoire: The BEST Prokofiev Symphony No. 5

[@Troubleshooter125]

I grew up with the Szell and The Cleveland Orchestra performance, and I love it to this day.

[@giacomofirpo2477]

A really good review! Oh yes, the Prokofiev's Fifth with Karajan is absolutely a stunning performance...he was an open minded and curious conductor and he loved russian music. He did much care in this repertoire...

[@damiangruszczynski7451]

Another great survey-thank you Dave! Maybe you should do one chapter about this crazy fact you’ve mentioned - Karajan’s recording outside so called „Karajan’s area” like Walton 1st, Shostakovich 10th or Berg and Webern and etc. ?

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

That would be interesting, I appreciate the suggestion.

[@alexchristopher221]

And the Swiss composer Arthur Honegger, Symphonies 2 & 3 on DG.

[@Bucky58]

Ricardo Muti and Philadelphia Orchestra Prokofiev 5th I enjoy and has The Meeting of the Volga and the Don overture which I never heard of. Always like your info on the score. I'm always learning something new about these works.

[@HassoBenSoba]

My piano teacher gave me a score and recording of Proko 5 in 1965; even at a young age, I was aware of its stature. But I couldn't even make it through the 3rd movement, since I found it SO boring (whereas, a few years later, the THIRD symphony rocketed to the top of my "favorites" list). Over the years, I played percussion in Proko 5 twice or 3 times (usually the Bass Drum..the best part), but still failed to appreciate the work. In 1987, I started a thorough study of Prokofiev (with the Harlow Robinson bio), after which I put on the PREVIN/LSO (1975) recording. When it ended, I said "NOW I GET IT!!", and was thrilled that I finally did. Glad to see that you've included PREVIN #1 among your picks; actually it's the LACK of HYSTERIA and insane, clown-ish "humor" that most conductors go for in the finale that impressed me most about Previn. There's a sense of DIGNITY and NOBILITY ..never slack, always intense...that totally pulled me in...like, when you read of Prokofiev mounting the podium to conduct its premiere in 1944 and hearing the roar of cannons in the distance, signalling the Russian's advance across the Elbe river (or whatever...). Fabulous. And Previn absolutely captures that spirit. LR

[@ScottHughes-n4u]

You're absolutely right Dave. Karajan's Prokofiev 5th is one of the best things he ever did. I know the sound is bass shy but the greatness of the playing comes through anyway. It was recorded in the Jesus Christus Church in Berlin and that church acoustic helped embellish the already gorgeous Berlin Philharmonic strings. Karajan's great performance was my introduction to Prokofiev's music and I am fortunate to have started with the best. I wish he would have recorded Romeo and Juliet and Cinderella with his wonderful orchestra. It would have been awesome.

[@allthisuselessbeauty-kr7]

Thanks for a great review. Jarvi is a wonderful version (he really transformed the RSNO during his tenure....he's Shostakovich 4th is fantastic also I think). As you say the Karajan really is one of the finest things he did - that slow movement is just magical. I do have an alternative I like...Janson's and the Leningrad also on Chandos.

[@LaRush62]

I also was at a performance of this in SF and sat behind the orchestra...late 80's or early 90's. It was thrilling!

[@6295LARGE]

In the Malcolm Sargent Everest recording you get to hear the snare drum's important part during the last 69 bars of the finale. In so many recordings you don't hear it at all (I've listened to 125 different recordings of it). The only recording where the snare drum is heard more clearly is the live recording with Dmitri Mitropoulos and the NYPO on the ASD CD. In that rare recording it sounds as though the percussion section had its own mic. You also get to hear instruments you've never heard before.

[@UlfilasNZ]

I really like the Kitaenko Cologne recording, not sure why it doesn't get mentioned more often! But it is slower than usual, and I guess goes for more subtlety and sophistication...Maybe the anti-Järvi? It's my favourite cycle as a whole actually.

[@fulltongrace7899]

I agree. A great cycle and a great recording and sonics, and yes he is a bit slower and deliberate.

[@MDK2_Radio]

Feeling gratified again, I have the Previn you held on the right (Los Angeles) in my collection. I saw the Colorado Symphony do this with Jeffrey Kahane back when he was their music director, so about 15 years ago, and it was a terrific performance. I don't know if they hit on all those points you mentioned (I'm not the most sophisticated listener of classical music, let's leave it at that) but my wife and I enjoyed it much.

[@morrigambist]

When I heard that grand climax in Karajan's recording, the phrase "fire and ice" finally made sense. A wonderful performance!

[@thescientificmusician3531]

The Kucher Prokofiev fifth is astonishingly good. And in the box, here are no weak links in the symphonies. He's a really underrated conductor. His set of Nielsen symphonies is extraordinary. In the Nielsen, he conducts the Janacek Philharmonic. It''s an above-average orchestra, but he gets them to play the music. When I think of Neeme Jarvi, I end up thinking about his recording Nielsen's opera "Saul and David" too. It's got extraordinarily, powerful, and unforgettable music, like Nielsen's symphonies. But it's in Danish and it's a pity that is doesn't get performed outside of Denmark.

[@morrigambist]

There is a DVD in German that has many good qualities (and, of course, the usual directorial idiocies).

[@davidowen9308]

I regard Kuchar as the best Prokofiev interpreter and always come back to him when listening to these works. His Nielsen cycle is very decent as well if not quite the equal of Schmidt overall.

[@mikewinter2235]

My wife was the percussionist in our orchestra, in Boise, and in Santa Cruz where she played under Joann Faletta, whom she loved (mee too!) also whenever we had a conductor search she was surprised by the variance among conductors in how much they wanted the percussion to be heard. They seem to treat it like a seasoning - not too much please.

[@SimonMackUK77]

Many many thanks for yr undeniable insights here. So you recommend : Previn, Kuchar , Karajan and Jaarvi. Thank you sir!

[@barryguerrero7652]

I like Slatkin/St. Louis, partly because it just sounds so good (recorded on a Soundstream deck). I think Maazel/Clevland is a bit of sleeper.

[@pbarach1]

Szell, which is a fabulous performance with recorded sound that is much improved in the latest remastering.

[@richardsauer7494]

How many of you detect a note of menace in the final bars of the finale?

[@gaylelinney180]

When you showed that section of your score, naturally I wanted to get out mine and see what else it says at that point (it looks like 5 before the meno mosso at Fig.25). Surprise - it doesn't show the same thing. In my copy, which is the old Hawkes pocket score (copyright 1946 Anglo-Soviet Music Press, Ltd - isn't that something from another time) the piatti here share a line with the triangle, so all you get is a note stem and an accent mark, nothing about clashed or struck. No doubt your score is more recent and more accurate, but I wonder whether some conductors haven't fully noticed that the cymbalist switches between the two styles of playing because they are working from the older score. The HPS is obviously a photo reduction of a full score and there must be copies of it still around. Anyway, I fully concur with your top 3 - Kuchar (whose whole cycle is pretty good), Jarvi, and Karajan, who has the edge for me thanks to that fabulous string playing that you mentioned.

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

That's really interesting. Just goes to show how important editorial decisions (and carelessness) can be in determining what we hear.

[@CloudyMcCloud00]

Such an outstanding symphony. I have Karajan's great recording (also Ashkenazy -- but let's not talk about that), which I love; although the tam-tam crashes near the end of the first movement has to be one of the most over-the-top events ever committed to record! There's also some wayward playing (e.g. the crescendo at the end of the second movement isn't sustained in the trumpets); but overall a tremendously powerful reading.

[@alexchristopher221]

Prokofiev's 5th is my favorite work of his and in my Top 10 list of symphonies. My favorite recording is the one by Karajan and the BPO followed by Jarvi and the SNO. I've had the original DG LP since the late-seventies.

[@dmntuba]

I'm a big fan of the Naxos NSU recordings in general. They are raw, but they play with suck passion almost like they are playing for their lives...and they may be. Fun to listen to 👍

[@martyanderson7376]

I have to comment because this is one of my favorite pieces, by one of my favorite composers (Prokofiev was a bass drum guy, as am I). I agree with you that the Fifth has not fared well on discs, and I also agree that it's in part because too many conductors are unwilling to go for broke (not just here, but in just about everything). But I just do not hear "uninhibited" in Jarvi's cycle. That's what disappoints me every time; and "uninhibited" is exactly what I expected when I bought it. As well, his Third could be so much fiercer. (And I like Jarvi very much!) I'm not sure that I have heard a genuine napalm job in this symphony. It is a great pity that Karajan's has no bass information. And on the subject of HvK and percussion, I must say that digital (i.e. late) Karajan usually impresses me with forceful timpani. (HvK is my favorite conductor.) When I want to hear Prokofiev's Fifth, I usually reach for either Slatkin (who defines the underrated conductor, with a splendid recorded legacy on RCA) or Masur (Teldec). And yes, Jarvi, too. There's a subscription-only recording of Noseda and the BBC Phil that, although slow, has real weight and is a great listen. Thanks for this and all your videos!

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

You are very welcome, Thank you for sharing such a well-informed viewpoint (although I disagree with you about Järvi).

[@mickeytheviewmoo]

Never been a Jarvi fan. He is far too inconsistent with a slap-happy fashion approach. He also tends to rush things along a bit too much for my liking. Then, occasionally, maybe by chance, his approach suits the music like a glove. This is one of them occasions.

[@nihilistlemon1995]

Welp good news ! The recent recording with Franz Wesler Most with the cleveland orchestra is articulated , bombastic and beautiful strings on the third mvt . Hopefully you'll enjoy it as much as i did !

[@Fredo_Viola]

I’m curious what your thoughts are about the Dorati recording with the London Symphony Orchestra. It’s one of those Mercury Living Presence recordings that certainly have a very coarse, direct but highly detailed sound. I adore the way the brass and percussion sound in this recording and it is a wildly spirited interpretation. That said… it’s the only one I have ever heard!! I certainly look forward to hearing all of yo ur recommendations! Thanks for these marvelous videos!

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

Listen to Jarvi on Chandos. I don't think much of Dorati, which is not with the LSO. It's with the much inferior Minneapolis Symphony.

[@Fredo_Viola]

@@DavesClassicalGuide will do!

[@denbigh51]

No mention of my favourite - Lorin Maazel with the Cleveland Orchestra on Decca. Everyone loves his Prokofiev Romeo and Juliet and it is somewhat a mystery to me his 5th symphony is not held in the same regard. The 1970s Decca sound from Cleveland is hard to beat too - plenty of percussion in that first movement.

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

I agree, but if only he increased the tempo for the exposition's closing theme (and subsequently). The result is just a touch stiff.

[@flowsouth8496]

@@DavesClassicalGuide But... but... the DG Prokofiev Panorama release got a 10/10 rating on Classics Today on the basis of the Maazel 5th and one other performance. There also seems to be a certain consensus that it is a really good performance. I think its particular strengths are the neutral Decca recording and the straightforward playing that emphasizes the motoric rhythm in the music. Is the problem with the tempo that it deviates too much from the score, or is it down to taste?

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

@@flowsouth8496 It's all down to taste, isn't it? Also, a collection may get a high rating based on what it contains, as you note. There's value iin a smartly assembled compilation too.

[@flowsouth8496]

@@DavesClassicalGuide Indeed you are right. Thank you very much for taking the time to answer.

[@elendil504]

I decided to A-B the Petrenko and Jarvi Prok 5s as I had not heard either. I kept turning up the Petrenko to check for signs of life but heard none. The Jarvi leapt up fully alive. Recordings like the Petrenko remind me of my struggle long ago when I first heard Zuckerman trying to play The Lark Ascending. Why did they bother?

[@PUCCINIMUSICK]

I follow your programs with immense interest. I many times subscribe your opinions (absolutely about Roger Norrington!!!!) BUT please DO NOT SAY Karajan HATED PERCUSSIONS (I am one of Karajan's Biographers, a percussionist and conductor myself!). He loved timpani sould, as Oswald Voegler can easily confirm, and he (many people do not know this) could play TIMPANI! He knew timpani parts BY HEART. And loved timpani sound very much: strings got precedence many times but the sound of timpanis (please listen to his LIVE perfos, I have more than 800 of them!) is always to the fore as much as it is possible!

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

I was not speaking of timpani. I agree with you there. Everyone else? Not so much, judging from the inaudible or missing parts in so many of his recordings.

[@CloudyMcCloud00]

Surely you have heard HvK's Sibelius 4 (BPO)? The massively underwhelming timpani contribution at the climax in the slow movement makes me want to tear me hair out! 😀

[@2906nico]

Yes, absolutely the three best ones in this short list - Previn (coupled with his excellent 7th rather than the Classical), Karajan and Jarvi.

[@Musicamansa]

Hi. May I suggest you relisten Bernstein-Israel on this one?

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

Why?

[@Musicamansa]

@@DavesClassicalGuide I find it so nice! Perhaps if you got back to it your opinion would be different. I also like Alsop-São Paulo, but this one you didn't quite enjoy. Keep up the good work!

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

@@Musicamansa Fair enough. I'll give it another shot.

[@richardsauer7494]

I still have Leinsdorf's BSO recording. Can't recall if it was great or even good. Anyone remember it?

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

Not great.

[@kieran2262]

Hi David, I dig your reviews, and your approach to them - a breath of fresh air in ‘the industry’. So thank you very much indeed! This one was v. insightful too - to be honest a bit surprising that you are so unimpressed with so many! But there you have it. No quibbles. I’ve been listening to an old (1965) recording by Ladislav Slovak with the Czech Philharmonic on Supraphon. I think it’s really quite decent - precise, well played, distinctive woodwinds as you’d expect, lively but also restrained here and there which I think works well. Interpretively quite natural and feels ‘right’. Sound is a little muddy but does the job. In my opinion: a sleeper :) I wonder what you think of it?

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

I haven't heard that one, so I'll take your word for it!

[@johns9624]

Wish I hadn't sold my lp of the Karajan version. To my ears, the tamtam has nowhere near the impact on cd that it had on vinyl, although my lp went out the door years ago so maybe memory is playing tricks. I suspect not. The mid-60s DGG recordings I still own on both lp and cd (Sibelius 4 and 5 for instance) show that, at least on the Galleria edition (1984?) DGG hadn't yet mastered the art of analogue/digital transfer.

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

The tam-tam sounds just as good on CD. On LP it was probably distortion.

[@williamwhittle216]

Have the Chandos Järvi/Prokofiev box, recommended by you (I think): I know this: Dave, you have cost me a lot of money! 🤓🎹

[@alexanderyaroslavich2703]

Slatkin's with the St. Louis SO is the one I grew up with (thank you Pierce County WA Public library), and as we all know, your first hearing is the most influential, at least as an enthusiast and high school and college player. Just curious what your opinion on that one is.

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

Excellent performance, but the recording level is rather low so it's hard to give it the necessary impact at normal playback levels. But I do think it's very much underrated.

[@Wolfcrag85]

I own versions by Kuchar (Naxos) and Rostropovich (Warner/Erato).

[@MegaVicar]

Nice review! Thank you. I’ve got HvK’s 5th and the complete Symphonies by Järvi, on your wise recommendation. Like Mr. Whittle says, you’ve cost me a lot, but it is money well spent.

[@burtbassy9645]

I Own the Karajan & the Järvi but I listen most times to the Jansons/ Leningrad on Chandos.......

[@transmutation11]

You ever listen to Dorati with Minneapolis? there are many recordings I have not heard but there was always something about the dryness that recording I liked. It really gives the music a Mechanical edge and I like the tempi. I would be curious to hear your opinion

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

I think it's pretty bad--underplayed, insensitive--just not competitive.

[@paulreed1142]

Have you heard of Stereophile Magazine's founder J. Gordon Holt? He had a theory, that the better the recording of a classical piece, the worse the performance, and vice versa.

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

This is bad as sound and performance, though.

[@petejilka968]

Having heard various famous orchestras perform this live, The Cleveland Orchestra is, hands down,the best orchestra in this type of repertoire. They always sound like they eat Prokofiev for breakfast...

[@flowsouth8496]

Great news! I have discovered a recording of Prokofiev's fifth that nobody talks about, but is really great: Dutoit and the MSO. It may be a bit literal for some, but the beautiful orchestral playing and champagne sound is just what I'm looking for. And it's coupled to a splendid rendition of the Classical symphony. Could this be the best coupling of these two symphonies on disc?

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

It's really very dull. Sorry.

[@flowsouth8496]

@@DavesClassicalGuide Dave, thank you for sharing your professional opinion. I can see how this recording may be perceived to be literal compared to others, but I can't see how it would be considered very dull without further explanation. All I can think of is that the recorded volume is quite low, and there is quite a bit of reverberation, so it will sound bland unless listened to at high volume. I do and I let the gorgeous sound of the orchestra wash over me.

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

@@flowsouth8496 I can't go into it in detail here, so I'll just say that if you enjoy it, that's great.

[@flowsouth8496]

@@DavesClassicalGuide Fair enough.

[@Mooseman327]

Soon after you did this video, Vasily Petrenko and the Oslo Phil. did a Prokofiev 5 that sweeps the board, in my opinion. Miraculous playing from the orchestra and Petrenko knows this music from the inside out.

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

That is a horrible performance. You must be out of your mind. kzbin.info/www/bejne/nqakqGmVYrV9rpI

[@caschu33]

For those who can get their paws on the Japanese reissues of Ormandy's Philadelphia "semi-cycle" (1, 4, 5, 6 & 7), they will, I think, be very pleased.

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

I have it, but that Fifth doesn't impress me. Maybe I should listen again.

[@kend.6797]

I have the Japanese reissue that you mention. The recordings do not do much for me (very few Ormandy recordings do).

[@LyleFrancisDelp]

@@DavesClassicalGuide I absolutely agree. Ormandy's 5th never really gets off the ground, but his 4th is one of the better ones I've heard.

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

@@LyleFrancisDelp I agree completely.

[@PinkasDanko]

So right about what von Karajan’s best repertoire is: witness his La Mer and Le Sacre du Printemps!

[@jgesselberty]

Right, about the coda. Also, this terrifying ending should not be taken too fast. Languish in the terror.

[@maudia27]

Wow - How happy - I have four versions - Previn, Jarvi, Karajan - and Masur with NYP (have to hear it again to compare) I am OK then :) - Jarvi also my favourite.

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

Thanks for listening

[@oskarapeta2895]

Stokowski also did Prokofiev's 5th during his visit to Russia in 1958. It has an interesting, Russian kind of raw sound, but unfortunately Stoki (or the guys responsible for engineering) mixed with the dynamics in the final bars and the result is very bad. Instead of lowering of volume because of only a few instruments playing one have a few instruments as loud as the whole orchestra.

[@c.iuliusbalbus4399]

This is not a work I know well, but the recording by Klaus Tennstedt in Munich, issued by Profil, seems really impressive to me.

[@DavidAgdern]

It would be highly interesting to hear a desert island recordings from you. I’m sure it’s difficult to do.

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

It is. I really don't believe it that kind of list. There's too much legitimate interpretive variety and I don't like to be forced to choose only one approach. There's joy in diversity!

[@lawrencechalmers5432]

My imprint recording was Schippers (emi?). I have Kuchar (the whole cycle) and I agree with your assessment. Also Walter Weller LPO (meh) and Levine. Also Dorati (booooo). Too bad the bulk of Levine's recording with the CSO wasn't in Orchestra Hall...I'll have to spring for Jarvi's whole set...

[@bolemirnoc604]

Weller recorded the 5th with LSO, it's absolutely fabulous.

[@howardhewitt4792]

A very interesting review as always, David. Are you familiar with the live Mravinsky recording with the Leningrad Phil. from 1968? Ensemble isn't always perfect, nor is the recording quality ideal, but it has that necessary wildness and 'snap and snarl' to which you refer apropos the Jarvi version.

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

I know the Mravinsky, and it doesn't thrill me.

[@pawdaw]

David - would you consider looking at Prokofiev 6? I think it's as good, if not better than 5.

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

Sure--and much tougher interpretively.

[@pawdaw]

@@DavesClassicalGuide Great. The Sixth Symphony certainly is a tough nut to crack, especially the big second movement. Prokofiev wanted the Sixth to convey reconciliation and healing, and you get that. But what of the horn passage at the end of the first movement development - that supposedly represents the wheezing of the Party Officials. Or the 'music box' moment in the second movement. It's certainly a rich and affecting work.

[@kend.6797]

Performances and recordings of Prokofiev 5 usually disappoint me in some way. The opening of the 1st movement should not be too fast, it needs a calmness with a certain amount of ambience to the sound. The 2nd movement contains a witty, militant section that leads into the final section of the movement that is often taken too fast. This lead-up should start slowly with an increase in speed and menace as it goes. In the final movement I need to hear the piano which I rarely do. I'm fairly certain the 1st movement coda is the loudest music I've ever heard and in the concert hall I sometimes need to close my ears! I do also like the Los Angeles/Previn version. They made some good recordings together.

[@LyleFrancisDelp]

What? No mention of Szell or Ansermet? (Well, I know you're no fan of Ansermet.) I will always listen for that tam-tam balance from now on. :-) Thank you for these reviews. I've been enjoying them immensely, as you were one of my favorite Fanfare writers back in the day. (I dropped Fanfare almost 20 years ago and haven't looked back.)

[@naskray]

In my opinion, Rostropovich did it very well

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

Yes, he did,

[@andreashelling3076]

I think the SWR and Celibidache is a great recording

[@andreashelling3076]

However I find a contradiction when u say this symphony doesnt need to be played beautifully and then still praysing the glorious Berlin strings 🙄

[@brucehunter1115]

Lots of poor performances indeed: Gergiev, Dorati, Jansons Leningrad especially. I Agree about Karajan, in this and other repertoire (Shostakovich 10, Honegger) What about Boston Lenisdorf?

[@RModillo]

I haven't heard this particular one, but there were some really excellent discs in the Leinsdorf/BSO cycle. Probably worth a look.