Repertoire: The Haydn Symphony CRUSADE (No. 49 "La Passione")

[@ervinvice1521]

I’d like to add my voice to the chorus of praise for this series. It awakened me to all things Haydn - not just the symphonies, but the piano trios, the string quartets (ah, those marvelous quartets), the masses, and even the lieder. Haydn makes life sweeter. I can’t put it any other way.

[@yazeh3640]

Thank you Dave for such an enlightening discussion about Sorrow vs Happy music. Comping from the Middle East, I often heard that tears were preferred to smile, and laughter was banished. As for Haydn's symphony, I listened to it several times before listening to your chat, switching between Mariner /Dorati (and the addition of the dratted Harpsichord) and finally settled down with Fischer. What I found really interesting that I could hear in the first movement, chords that Mozart would use some 2 decades later in his Requiem. But what was most fascinating was hearing Beethoven 5th in the 2nd movement near the end.

[@handelbaroque]

Yay, so happy to get a new "episode" of Haydn symphony crusade!

[@martinheyworth3750]

Thank you for this talk. Besides No. 49 (F minor, 1768), the following Haydn symphonies also begin and end in the minor: 39 (G minor; c. 1765), 26 (D minor, c. 1768), 44 (E minor, c. 1771), 52 (C minor, c. 1771). No. 45 (the "Farewell", 1772) begins in F sharp minor and ends in F sharp major. Of these various works, No. 49 is the one that is most consistently in the minor, as implied or stated in Dave's informative talk.

[@robj7386]

past couple of months really digging into classical, endless material so when feeling sort of stuck, i go back to the Dorati set. Haydn is the default always enjoyable

[@philippecassagne3192]

I do not know of course all the interpretations of that symphony, but I found Trevor Pinnock very good (from his wonderful box : "Haydn Sturm und Drang Symphonies").

[@KrisKeyes]

I'm glad to see another installment. The 49th is one of my favorites. However, I also agree with Dave's sentiments on the value of sorrow vs. joy in music. Sadder is definitely NOT better. It's just one expression out of many that can be done at varying levels of intensity and skill. I do wish major key, jovial works were given more respect.

[@bws6250]

Hi Dave, I’m so happy to be back on the crusade with you! I recently went through all 48 of your HSC videos while on paternity leave (My son is getting a quite an invitation to the world of music!). For each video I compared Dorati, Fischer, and Naxos recordings… and threw in a *Goberman* when available. I continued on with my own self analysis until I got exhausted and needed a break after #63! My analyses of the symphonies are underwhelming compared to yours, but I greatly enjoyed the exercise. I’m also finding after listening to your videos and to the symphonies I’m picking out so much more detail in other works, by other composers, that I’ve heard many times before. I must say Haydn has joined Mahler and Beethoven as one of my top three! Thanks for the work you do.

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

Thank you so much!

[@justintanas9280]

You're really doing something beautiful.

[@JamesAdams-ev6fc]

As I understand it, the subtitle was not only not assigned by the composer, but it’s origin is unknown. One theory is that the music is related to a play about a sorrowful person, who happened to be a Quaker. But this is admittedly speculative. I wish that more music lovers grasped the range of emotions in Haydn, but this requires much listening. Life is short but art is long. Thanks for the video.

[@pascalrousseau1]

your words, with excerpts, are so precious. Just for that, I really try to encourage Naxos. luckily this label has a brain

[@edelineableful]

Thank you Dave, interesting to observe that this unusual symphony leads you to an unusual analysis (in the context of the crusade), less formal, mainly philosophical, finally nietzschean (the question of value).

[@georgejohnson1498]

Dear Dave, This is not only one of my favourite Haydn symphonies, but a favourite symphony from anyone! Grateful that the series has returned. Best wishes from George PS: You would not approve of my favourite recording. It extremely stylish and intense, but recorded by EMI during the War in Paris under Nazi occupation. How they got away with that does beggar belief!

[@davidaiken1061]

Delighted that you are returning to the "Haydn Symphony Crusade". And this was one of the very best so far. Your point that joy can be as profound as sorrow struck me as a genuine corrective psychologically, philosophically, and musically. Religiously, too, since there are avenues of profound joy in all the major faiths (yes, even German Lutheranism--take a listen to BWV 34 for Pentecost). But I digress. You most important point concerned the main reason why Haydn's music is still undervalued--he's so cheerful, so full of play. Yes indeed. Listen again to the "Benedictus" from the Harmoniemesse. No wonder the ecclesiastical authorities were suspicious.I have always loved Haydn's music precisely beccause of its profound playfulness. Which brings me to another, related, topic. Over many years I have surveyed all of the extant Haydn complete symphony cycles. That is, all but one--namely Märzendorfer, the very first complete cycle recently reissued by Scribendum. And recently obtained by yours truly. So far, after auditioning about 14 symphonies my impressions are very positive. Tremendous vitality in first and last movements; broad and dignified minuets (like Dorati, only a bit more pompous); and liesurely but intelligently phrased slow movements. Patches of rough ensemble playing and rough sonics notwithstanding, Märzendorfer may turn out to be a keeper. Have you heard it, Dave? If so, what do you think?

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

Thank you for your comments. I find M-fer to be pretty ordinary, and the patchy playing and sonics don't hold up for me as the cycle progresses. I'd be interested to get your take on it as you move through it.

[@davidaiken1061]

@@DavesClassicalGuide So far Ithe symphonies I have sampled are from early, middle and late in Haydn's career. No duds, though the playing and recording are not as refined as Dorati or the Naxos cycle. But I have a lot of tolerance for lack of refinement on both scores if I really like the interpretations, which I do in this case. I won't probably prefer this to Dorati, but I have given up all the other cycles I have explored over the years--the dreadful Davies, the pedantic Hogwood, the inconsistent Fischer. The Naxos series you have been using for your "crusade" is overall very fine, though the contributions of Woordsworth and Drahos don't appeal to me as much as the others. I'll give you more feedback later as I explore further. Thanks for everything!

[@philippecassagne3192]

To contribute on that interesting topic about the merits of major and minor keys, I think it is important not to forget that some beautiful lamenti are written in a major key, which gives them a specific "colour". See for example the well known "Piangero la sorte mia" from Giulio Cesare by Haendel, or "Priva son d'ogni conforto" from the same opera.

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

Very true!

[@stradivariouspaul1232]

My favourite Haydn symphony (I think), thanks for the very intetesting talk on sad music, it certainly has its place, and thinking about it many of my most favourite pieces have their grief-stricken moments (Siegfried's funeral music, the funeral march from the Eroica, the slow movement of Dvorak's cello concerto spring to mind), but a bit of light in amongst the shade is always nice!

[@bbailey7818]

My favorite Haydn symphonies in the 40s are these minor key works especially the first mvt of this one. But I was listening to 98 last night and its hard to be more profound than that work's second mvt. And it's in F Major.

[@leeturner1202]

Glad to see that you are continuing the Haydn series after a fairly long hiatus. I agree that Haydn was unfairly overlooked for way too long.

[@patrickhackett7881]

My opinion is that many people prefer dark music and consider it deeper than cheerful music for the same reason we like watching suspense/horror/action movies or play violent video games. For almost all of the history of humanity, life was hard and sometimes dangerous, with higher rates of violence in societies. Nowadays, life is fairly quiet and many of us go our whole lives never having to go into combat. So our lives can feel sort of dull, which is preferable to the alternative but still kinda boring at times. So we indulge our yearning for getting into dark or life threatening situations in "safe" ways. As we watch people on TV suffer, read about suffering, or hear dark pieces like the Passion symphony, we sate our irrational desires to have a more interesting but dangerous life by feeling an echo of what we would feel if we were actually in that situation. Analogy: I actually kind of like the smell of skunk on the road sometimes when driving with my windows up, but I wouldn't want to be anywhere near a dead skunk for long, or worse get sprayed by one.

[@paulwl3159]

Many great points there in your great crusade! It does seem as if in classical music that dismal and sad is considered better and more artistically valuable. And that has definitely prejudiced the reputation of Haydn. And perhaps also Handel, at least in comparison to Bach.

[@marcellobufalini]

Connections with Pergolesi's Stabat Mater, also in f minor?

[@petermarksteiner7754]

Great observation about Catholic/Lutheran attitudes to misery. Most of the time, the Catholic church was fairly tolerant of entertainment in church, if it did not go too far. Take for example, the Creation Mass with the totally unexpected quotation from the Creation (der tauende Morgen, o wie ermuntert er), a typical example of Haydn's dry and understated humor: it was the empress who objected to it, not the church. Biber's Rosary sonatas are full of lively dance tunes, and he wrote much of his instrumental music for dual use (tam aris quam aulis, for church and court). Lutheran church music tends to be serious to the point of dreariness. Buxtehude's Membra Iesu has been mentioned recently. Also some of the lyrics to Bach cantatas are quite hard to stomach. I think that somebody who compares the Kingdom of Heaven to Jesus's bleeding back after scourging ought to have his head examined.

[@stephen_pfrimmer]

Oh Have i kittens for you!

[@fredcasden]

All is forgiven!!!!!!!!