Repertoire: The IDEAL Brahms Chamber Works (All of Them!)

[@francoisjoubert6867]

I never liked the cello sonatas. So I took them on a business trip and had the disk in the car for 4 days. Now I like them a lot. Nice chat, thanks for posting.

[@pauldavidartistclub6723]

How interesting. For myself the Cello Sonatas and the String Quartets rank among my very favorite chamber works by Brahms, and I got acquainted with them pretty early in my Brahms journey. I do wholeheartedly agree with you regarding the Piano Quintet, in that I also like the two piano version much more than the more common one. Also agree with you that the String Quintets and Sextets are towering masterpieces. Thanks for an excellent video Mr Hurwitz

[@timothythorne9464]

All Brahms chamber works are great, but for me the piano trios are the finest-- all six of them! -- Opus 8, 87 and 101, for piano, violin and cello, the opus 40 and 114 arrangements for piano, viola and cello, and the opus posthumous Trio in A Major for piano, violin and cello. May I amplify there are actually SEVEN Brahms Trios for piano, violin and cello, as Opus 8 exists as an original, written in 1854 and a 1891 revision. All these works are among the best chamber pieces ever written. I believe the Odeon Trio with Rainer Moog (viola) have recorded all these works.

[@jamescameron9627]

As a horn player, I was hoping you would give the horn trio a little more time and attention. You can make up for it by doing a whole video dedicated to your favorite versions of the horn trio! :)

[@brentarnold_piano]

I've been listening to it lately. The adagio mesto movement is incomparable. One of the most beautiful things I've ever heard.

[@williamwalton2359]

The Horn Trio is wonderful

[@RichardDynes-n4q]

LOVE the Horn Trio❤

[@nickgoldring1446]

​@@brentarnold_piano The central moment of that adagio mesto sounds "Mahlerian" (e.g. the corresponding third mvt. of Gustav's 6th).

[@woongcho7709]

Magnificent video!! Thank you!! Here's my list (for now): Violin Sonata 1 - Suk/ Katchen Violin Sonata 2 - Manoukian / Sussmann Violin Sonata 3 - Suk/Firkusny, Oistrakh/Richter Cello Sonata 1 - Perenyi / Kocsis Cello Sonata 2 - Schiff / Zacharias Clarinet Sonatas - Paul Meyer/Eric le Sage, Thea King/Clifford Benson, Yona Ettinger/Pnina Salzman Piano Trios - Trio Wanderer Horn Trio - Orval/Grumiaux/Sebok Clarinet Trio - Manasse/Nakamatsu/Greensmith String Quartets - New Zealand String Quartet Piano Quartet 1 - Faure Quartet, Leopold String Trio/Hamelin Piano Quartet 2 - Curzon/Budapest String quartet Piano Quartet 3 - Faure Quartet String quintets - Leipziger Streichquartett/Rohde Piano quintet - Curzon/Budapest String Quartet, Klansky/Prazak Quartet Clarinet Quintet - Veilhan/Quintette Stadler, McGill/Pacifica Quartet String Sextets - Talich Quartet/Kanka/Kluson My most favorite pieces are clarinet sonatas and violin sonatas; my least favorite String Quartet op.51-2 .

[@saraband2004]

I hope you would talk about complete Brahms chamber music cycles. There are Phillips DG Hyperion brilliant classics etc.

[@Bachback]

Brilliant talk on chamber music in general and the chamber music of Brahms in particular. You have encouraged me to further explore this corner of his oeuvre that I have struggled with in the past.

[@adrianoseresi3525]

O yes thank god! I have been waiting for a talk on the ideal Brahms chamber works. I've been having great trouble finding recordings of the piano quartets that I like best. Thanks Dave!

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

Hope you enjoy it!

[@sandy44440]

There are just so many superb Brahms chamber music recordings. For the String Quintets, my favourite is the one by the Boston Symphony Chamber Players. After "imprinting" on the Amadeus Quartet recordings this was a revelation in the "ah, so _that_ is how it goes" vein ... and although there are many superb recordings of these quintets (e.g. Hagen, Takács, Berlin Philharmonic Octet) this Boston disk remains a special desert island disc for me - quite heartbreaking.

[@kylejohnson8877]

Those are marvelously expressive performances indeed!

[@stephenmarmer543]

I was lucky enough to hear Heifetz and Piatigorsky and friends at this old Pilgrimage Theater in Los Angeles perform opus 111 when I was in high school. Later I discovered the Prades Festival performance on disc. I agree that that the string quintet and the clarinet quintet and the horn trio along with the violin sonatas are among the most sublime chamber works ever written. Thanks for this discussion.

[@carlob95]

Very helpful! Thank you!

[@lukesinclair4337]

Well that's my free time all planned out for the next month

[@murraylow4523]

It won't be wasted....

[@johnmontanari6857]

Two excellent collections I've discovered while bopping around the streaming services: The Cello Sonatas with Marie-Elisabeth Hecker and Martin Helmchen are beautifully balanced and very eloquent. And four Spanish dudes who call themselves "The Brahms Project" play the living daylights out of the Piano Quartets on Eudora. We're in a golden age of chamber music with performers like these

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

Yes, we are.

[@dennischiapello7243]

Great talk! You brought so much into focus for me. I liked especially your point about the importance of the size of the chamber in chamber music. You want to actually feel the vibrations from those strings! Brahms became a composer I loved and not merely liked when I was introduced to his chamber music. I think the main reason was because of the unrestrained lyricism, which Brahms had a particular gift for. In his symphonies, he tended to undermine his melodic inspirations with all the motivic development he felt obliged to do. There are a few exceptions, such as the Allegretto of the Third, but in the First he seems bent on stifling his melodic gift.

[@jesusalvarez-cedron6581]

For me the two sextets, the string quintets and the clarinet quintet are his best chamber works: I have them played by the Leipzig String Quartet (MDG) : a pure joy. The clarinet sonatas are also 💯 : The BIS CD with Martin Frost and Pontinen is a must.

[@siegfriedvanduffel7720]

Oh my, I love the string quartets so much! 😢

[@jdschneider5858]

I thoroughly enjoyed listening to your comments on chamber music and Brahms works in particular, even if you don't love the 'cello 😁!

[@zdl1965]

Great talk, Dave! Excellent choices and I'll also give shout out for the complete Brahms chamber music on a Hyperion box-set on 12 CDs, which includes the piano quartets with Hamelin & Leopold String Trio. Also has both versions of the viola/clarinet works. Special price too. For piano enthusiasts, there's the Gould Piano Trio on Champs Hill. Six discs of every conceivable trio, including both versions of Op.8, the posthumous Trio in A minor, horn trio, clarinet trio, and piano trio versions (arr. Theodor Kirchner) of the string sextets! Also specially priced!

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

It's also long out of print and very unavailable.

[@zdl1965]

@@DavesClassicalGuide That's sad, but show one how good it was, I guess!

[@1949cliffb]

Wonderful overview of a great body of work. Hours of wonderful music. I would just add one more “chamber” piece: another sextet but this one for 4 voices and two pianos: Liebeslieder walzes. Who would have thought saturnine Brahms could be so charming. The 4 voice version I find more delightful than the full choir version. Harmonia Mundi has a performance with Werner Gura et al.

[@matthewv789]

I do agree with you about chamber music being the best in very small venues, such as an actual living room or classroom. My first hearing of a Brahms violin sonata was in a 100-seat lecture hall, for instance, which was brilliant and exciting. On the other hand, I was pleasantly surprised by how nice, balanced, interesting, and even intimate chamber music can sound in the very large Davies Symphony Hall (post-1992 renovation of course). They put out a special acoustic backdrop on the stage, adjust the overhead reflectors appropriately (lowered quite a bit and angled to direct the sound down), and corral the audience into the orchestra section, and it works. It was, to my ears and eyes, a better experience than in many quite a bit smaller halls (like Le Petit Trianon in San Jose, which always talked about how great it was, but actually had weird acoustic resonances, and terrible sight lines if you were somewhere behind a pillar).

[@dennischiapello3879]

My favorite G Minor Piano Quartet recording is the one by Domus. It has spoiled me, though I can't claim to have done a thorough survey (not even by an amateur's standards.) But I think it's marvelous.

[@murraylow4523]

Really nice. And you're right, I can't quibble with any suggestions, as there are so so many great performances of most of this (and the music deserves it). Yes, the Piano Quintet for two pianists sounds really good. Only here I thought something might have escaped your mind on the spot, which is that no matter how great the Brahms Piano Quintet is, the opening movement makes rather heavy weather with quite a "concerto-like" piano part (which is maybe why it works so well in the arrangement). The "quintessential" romantic Piano Quintet is surely Schumann's, which maybe you'll do a talk on sometime, as its one of his most popular works. Even the resort to the fugue at the end of the finale is so endearing. But I'm really jealous for anyone out there who hasn't listened to Brahms' chamber works before :)

[@tommynielsen7163]

If I missed the recommendation for the horn trio, let me add Bloom, Tree and Serkin to the list. And btw, when will Sony stop ignoring its marvelous Marlboro discography?

[@stevenmsinger]

When it comes to the Brahms String Quartets, I don't think there's much problem with the first two. It's the third one that's a bit of a hard nut to crack. The second one is quite lovable - the best of the bunch. One of the treasures of my collection is a box of Brahms chamber works played by the Hollywood String Quartet. They only do the second quartet, but I don't think it's ever been bettered - though the Budapest Quartet comes close. The Hollywood String Quartet's versions of the Piano Quartets with Victor Aller on piano are superb. They even play my favorite version of the Schumann Piano Quintett. It threatens to go to pieces at all the right places. There's something special about these recordings - how together the four players are and what a gorgeous tone they bring to these works. Nothing cold or overtly intellectual at all. I agree about the Brahms Sonata for Two pianos as well though I'd recommend the version played by the incredible duo of Bracha Eden and Alexander Tamir. I think they just reissued a box of their complete works. Amazing stuff!

[@neilford99]

Horowitz said you can’t play Brahms without knowing the songs ( or something to that effect ). Had to learn Brahms 1 & 2 violin sonatas at school so got into them early. My favourite genre of Brahms’s output is the chamber music.

[@gabevalle2659]

Love these recommendations, I have a lot to listen to coming up! Have you heard the Belcea Quartet’s Brahms Piano Quintet, it’s stupendous!

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

Yes I have.

[@vinylarchaeologist]

Totally agree with you when you say that chamber music is performed in halls that are way too big. I‘d say it‘s even a problem of recordings, as newer ones tend to be too reverberant. It kind of defeats the *chamber* component - I think music like this needs a sense of intimacy. Thank you for your video. Cristian

[@RichardGreen422]

I completely agree with you about the string quintets relative to the quartets. I admire the quartets while I adore the quintets.

[@allthisuselessbeauty-kr7]

Have to say my initial reaction to Brahms String Quartets was less than favourable too - but I then heard the Carmina Quartet on Denon playing 1 & 2 and they won me over eventually! I think my favorite chamber work of Brahms is the Clarinet Quintet - a autumnal but also highly passionate work (and I'm going to plug Janet Hilton's version on Chandos and also Thea King's on Hyperion with the Clarinet Trio in tow).

[@dennischiapello7243]

Both autumnal and passionate--yes! I sometimes find the middle section of the Adagio emotionally overwhelming. I've never read a program note, however, that mentions the intensity of this section.

[@timothythorne9464]

The first quartet Opus 51 #1 is very Beethovenian in all four movements, which was unusual for Brahms. I don't care much for 51 #2, there's nothing interesting in it, though it's well crafted. The Opus 67 is quite captivating, until the theme and variations finale which repeats verbatim the opening phrase of the first mvt

[@johnmontanari6857]

Our chamber series presented the Brahms Cello Sonatas with Pieter Wispelwey and Dejan Lazic several years ago. At intermission, three ladies approached me to ask whether I could ask the pianist to play more quietly because they couldn't hear the cello. I told them I could not.

[@patrickhows1482]

This reminds me of the story of Brahms playing the piano part of the F major Cello Sonata, he was playing with a less than gifted amateur cellist and he was really thumping out the piano part; the cellist plucked up courage and said 'Herr Doktor, I cannot hear myself play', 'Lucky you' snapped back Brahms.

[@matthewv789]

On the other hand, I expect performers might always appreciate feedback on how the sound is balanced in the hall. After all, they can’t be out there listening at the same time they’re playing.

[@carlconnor5173]

I agree with what you said about the cello sonata and the quartets, David. I’m not familiar with the quintets or the sextets. I’ll certainly check them out. Oh, and the Trios too. Right on about the Dvorak Quintets!,

[@ilunga146]

Thanks for this video, Dave. I ordered the Martin Frost and the Mandelring CDs this morning. I find your taste in Mahler to be predictive of other things I may like. (I do like Abbado's original Mahler cycle more than you do, though.)

[@ianaltman487]

There is an outstanding performance, my favorite, of the string quintet, opus 111, by Isaac Stern, Paul Tortelier, Alexander Schneider, Milton Katims, and Milton Thomas. I've heard the old vinyl, and have a clean download, but I'm not sure it has been released on CD. Tortelier is the star of this performance. It also has the piano quintet with Myra Hess.

[@richardsauer7494]

For those interested, DG will be rereleasing their complete Brahms Edition (46 cds) in November.

[@adrianoseresi3525]

One of my personal favourite performances of the Piano quintet is the one on foghorn classics with Joyce Yang and the Alexander string quartet. They play this (Yang especially) with so much artistic vision and with such passion (the coda to the finale is possibly the most exhilarating, stupendous passage in discographic history). This performance opened my eyes to the wonders of Brahms and because of it, the work has become one of my absolute favourite pieces of music of all time!

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

Um, just a touch of exaggeration there...

[@adrianoseresi3525]

@@DavesClassicalGuide yes yes I admit that I did imprint on that performance so there is maybe just teeny tiny bit of exaggeration :D, but have you heard it?! I really think it’s just fabulous!

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

@@adrianoseresi3525 Yes, I've heard it. I'm not a big fan of that quartet.

[@zackio8899]

As a violist I'm saddended by your preference for the clarinet version of the sonatas as opposed to the version with viola. I just find the viola is able to be much more expressive and the dark, chocolatey sonority is much better suited to the music of Brahms. The Zuckerman recording you mentioned is my favorite for both the violin and viola sonatas. Great talk! I recently found your channel and I can't stop watching!!

[@johnwright7557]

I love Brahms’s chamber music including the cello sonatas, but not so much the string quartets or the viola version of the clarinet sonatas. My ideal list would be, though I have several recordings of some of these: Violin Sonatas: Znaider/Bronfman Cello Sonatas: Ma/Ax (Sony) Clarinet Sonatas: Leister/Bognar Piano Trios: Capucon, Capucon, Angelich Horn Trio: Frank-Gemmill, Grimwood, Gilmore (a recent recording on BIS-though I have several older ones, including Dennis Brain et al) Clarinet Trio: Schmidl, Dolezal, Schiff Piano Quartets: Ax, Stern, Laredo, Ma String Quartets: Takacs Piano Quintet: Serkin, Budapest (though Hough, Takacs on their quartet set is also great) Clarinet Quintet: Wright, Boston Sym Chamber Players String Quintets: Raphael Ensemble String Sextets: Nash Ensemble There are others I’d choose if I didn’t limit myself to one!

[@adrianoseresi3525]

That disc on Australian eloquence with Andras Schiff is remarkable; particularly because Schiff, in these performances, isn’t his usual stodgy, tame, calm self and he really lets it rip! (Especially in the piano quintet; I mean just listen to that creepy scherzo!!).

[@kylejohnson8877]

Great overview Dave, and I agree with many of your picks for recordings. I can understand your criticism of the cello sonatas, even if I very much enjoy them myself (the 2nd in particular). What do you think of some of the great 20th century cello sonatas, such as the ones by Poulenc, Casella, Kabalevsky, Shostakovich, Prokofiev, and Britten? I think these composers solved the balance problem between cello and piano quite well by writing virtuosically for the cello and exploiting its entire range, so that it doesn’t get covered up by the piano.

[@fernandoleon7606]

Ummm.....Did I missed some horn stuff around here??? Oh, and talking about boxes and bargains, some of these chamber works are on the 60 CD Philips Complete Recordings of Beaux Arts Trio, wich I just saw in a well known site around 40 usd. That is a steal.

[@Don-md6wn]

Dave, I don't think you mentioned Schumann when you were talking about the relative scarcity of piano quintets. The Naxos recording of the Brahms and Schumann piano quintets with Jando and the Kodaly Quartet is a good one for people who haven't heard either of them.

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

Yes, it is.

[@josecarmona9168]

Thanks very much for your talk, David. As always, funny and quite interesting. I'd like to know your opinion about the DG complete chamber works in the Collectors series. It's a chance to get all this works in a box, but are the versions good enough? (the String Quartets and the Piano Quintet are in fact the ones you mention with the Emersons and Fleischer). Another box I'd like to recommend, also in DG, is the one with the Amadeus Quartet. All of the strings works, and the quintets for piano and clarinet.

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

Yes, it's a very good box.

[@hbicht5051]

Never cared for the 2nd cello sonata but the 1st one is wonderful. The opening is one of the most beautiful things Brahms ever wrote and I love the fugato finale.

[@shostakovich343]

Not to mention the music box-like allegretto. That's some of the most enchanting music Brahms ever wrote.

[@lordsoulis]

what about the sextets? The second movement of the first sextet is one of the most sublime pieces of music ever!

[@FCarraro1]

it begins with a viola solo, it couldn't be otherwise ^^

[@TichmanClassCologne]

Just a tip: Suk/Katchen Brahms Violin Sonatas can be streamed in the Naxos Music Library...

[@RudieVissenberg]

Went on a shopping spree again, thanks David .....

[@christophersmith6841]

Thanks for these recommendations, many of which are much more recent than what I have in my collection. I especially want to listen to your string quintets and sextets reco's. As you say, all Brahms has a certain perfection about it, but for me his piano trios, piano quartets and violin sonatas are among his very finest work. Aside from his short piano pieces (op. 10, 76, 79, 116-119) I listen to them more than any other music by Brahms. Maybe one day you might do a discussion of his short piano pieces. I hope so. Here goes an alternative list: Violin Sonatas: Pires and Dumay Cello Sonatas: Serkin and Rostropovich Clarinet Sonatas: Jando and Berkes Piano Trios/Clarinet Trio/Horn Trio: Either Florestan Trio set or Borodin Trio set. Piano Quartets: Domus Piano Quintet: Pollini and Quartetto Italiano String Quartets (which along with you I find hard going): Alban Berg Quartet String Quintets: Stuttgart Soloists on Naxos String Sextets: Raphael Ensemble Clarinet Quintets: Emerson Quartet with David Shifrin (coupled with Mozart's)

[@Phicxtion]

Sort of an off topic question but would you ever consider making a video covering the darkest pieces of classical music? I always wanted to hear from someone experienced in classical regarding the topic. Thanks

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

I sort of did. kzbin.info/www/bejne/aoK4mHtjoL6krtk

[@TomasAviles-ru5fc]

I was so hoping that Tetzlaff and Vogt would get chosen for the violin sonatas. Otherwise Wen Lei Gu and Kathy Kautsky are also beautiful. Capuçon has yet to really speak to me.

[@hermanblinkhoven1856]

As always, I agree with most of your recommendations, but I found it sad you did not mention two versions of Quintet op.34a that stand out, in my opinion. And even stranger, both feature musicians I know you love - Rubinstein and Guarneri Q, and Pollini and Quartetto Italiano. But we agree on the main thing - the piece is a world apart.

[@michelangelomulieri5134]

Great selection as usual but I personally prefer suk/katchen/starker for piano trios; ax/stern/Laredo/ma for piano quartets; Barenboim/Du Pre for cello sonatas and pollini/quartetto italiano for piano quintet.

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

Fair enough!

[@brithgob1620]

What do you think of Hamelin's performances of Haydn's piano sonatas? I admit that I am hesitating to buy them because of his reputation as a virtuoso's virtuoso.

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

They are reviewed on ClassicsToday.com.

[@colinwrubleski7627]

This may come across as veritable heresy to 'cellists, but the first 'cello sonata IMHO works better with the 'cello part transcribed up on octave for viola. In particular, the higher octave cuts through better in the finale fugato passages and can be heard more clearly in contradistinction with the keyboard entrances.

[@wtfisthis6213]

I find your distaste for the Brahms Quartets intriguing. To suggest to newcomers to Brahms that these are 3 stodgy works seems eccentric . How could anyone who enjoys quartets not respond positively the opening of the third quarte for example?

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

Easy. Watch this: ZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzz. There is nothing eccentric about sharing one's personal taste, or suggesting to others that they should be comfortable with their own. However, I do appreciate the fact that your comment offers a telling example of how NOT to approach these pieces, to say nothing of the received-opinion-elitism that makes chamber music so unappealing to so many listeners. Oh, and I might add your screen name, which says so much about your own exquisite sensibilities.

[@timothybridgewater5795]

@@DavesClassicalGuide extra good xdays

[@ericjiang7801]

Wait, a lot of people prefer the original first piano trio to the revised version? I thought the consensus was that the original was a bit of a sprawling mess, and the revised (while missing some wonderful moments and youthful exuberance) had all the concentration and drama of a mature Brahms work. I definitely agree though about the Brahms quartets. I think his issue had less to do though with intimidation and more with the fact that Brahms simply liked rich sonorities and inner-part writing (like Mozart), and that restricting himself to 4 parts forced him to constantly utilize each one which makes everything sound monochrome. Once he had an extra instrument (as in the quintets/sextets, or works with piano - again like Mozart), he was able to indulge in all of that while having space for more textural contrasts and variety of colour.

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

Yes, many prefer the original.

[@williamwalton2359]

After rehearsing a new chamber piece ....one player asked Brahms how the rehearsal went....Brahms said "I liked his tempo the best"

[@jessemoog5310]

I dont get it.

[@jonathanhenderson9422]

Brahms's chamber vies with Mozart's Piano Concertos and Beethoven's Piano Sonatas as my favorite "cycle" of classical. I find something worthwhile in almost all this music; even the "difficult" string quartets, if not immediately aesthetically appealing, have a ton of interest if you dissect them formally. Overwritten perhaps, but they're definitely Brahms showing off his intellectual side. As for the cello sonatas, what Dave dislikes about them (two instruments inhabiting different worlds) is precisely what I like about them and the genre in general; it sounds like a kind of proto postmodernism where rather than striving for coherence what you have are conflicting/competing voices, and Brahms' in particular are quite kaleidoscopic in what they "say," with both works offering such contrasting tones. Perhaps the only Brahms chamber works I'm not enamored with are the string sextets, but it could just be that I haven't heard them as much compared to others. In terms of recordings, I do want to mention there are two complete box sets of Brahms's chamber music: one by Hyperion and one by Phillips. Both are quite good--I may have a slight bias for the Hyperion as that's where I first became familiar with this music--and a great choice if you want to get all this music in one go.

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

There's also a DG box.

[@jonathanhenderson9422]

​@@DavesClassicalGuide I knew about the DG Complete Brahms Edition box, but didn't know they released a separate box of just the chamber works. Probably a lot of overlap between them.

[@stephenmarmer543]

I was lucky enough to hear Heifetz and Piatigorsky and friends at this old Pilgrimage Theater in Los Angeles perform opus 111 when I was in high school. Later I discovered the Prades Festival performance on disc. I agree that that the string quintet and the clarinet quintet and the horn trio along with the violin sonatas are among the most sublime chamber works ever written. Thanks for this discussion.