Could Home Assistant be headed for trouble?

[@ResinChemTech]

A lot has changed with Home Assistant and the smart home market since this video was originally published, including some major announcements made in the 2024 State of the Open Home live stream. I have released a May 2024 update video that talks about the current state of numerous issues listed in this video (and many of the comments below): kzbin.info/www/bejne/g5XMYWaihpegnrM

[@tin2001]

My main issue with Home assistant is definitely the rapid breaking updates. Ideally they should move to having 2 release levels - one for the people who like to fiddle and keep up, and one longer cycle version (6 or 12 months) for people who just want it to work but don't want internet based stuff.

[@ResinChemTech]

It's funny timing, but I just replied to another comment that Andreas Spiess (much smarter and more advanced than me) posted a video a few hour ago that says basically the same thing about Home Assistant releases: too many, too often with too many breaking changes! So we are not alone in our grief! Thanks for watching and taking time to post a comment!

[@ClioSport2016v]

If everything is working and you don't need new stuff that is implemented why would you chose to update?

[@ResinChemTech]

Primarily (but not only) for the following reasons: - You buy a new device for your home and the integration of that device is only available in a newer version of Home Assistant than you have installed. - A great new feature, automation process, dashboard card, etc. will eventually be released that you'd really like to use. Home Assistant does release a lot of new features... and some have been great improvements, including things like dashboard displays and the ability to do things that you just couldn't do before (like integrate Google or Amazon for voice control). But you'll have to upgrade to use these new features. - Just like any software, updates generally contain security fixes and performance improvements. The process to restart Home Assistant (or now portions of it) after editing something is substantially better and faster than it was in the past. And as I mentioned in the video, you really don't want to fall too far behind in your version or it becomes much, much more difficult to catch up to the current version, with each month's breaking changes piling on one another. So unless you plan on keeping your entire smart home exactly as it is today, and never add any sort of new devices or features, you almost have to keep up and apply upgrades to avoid a big mess by trying to jump multiple versions in a single upgrade. I've made that mistake... and won't do it again. Even if it does mean that I have to spend an hour to two each month dealing with the current upgrade and any breaking changes for that month.

[@ClioSport2016v]

@@ResinChemTech In my example I am using NODE-Red for automations, HA is used just to put all different devices in one place. When I started with HA it had a shitty automations, could only be done in YAML and NODE-Red offers so much more and it is way more ogranised with troubleshooting much easier compared to HA. And when I do update I always check braking changes, hadn't had a problem with that in almost 4 years

[@osaether]

I couldn't agree more!

[@tlamont941]

Thanks for the video. I think matter will go the same way as Thread, Zigbee, z-wave where manufactures still have their own little quirks that don’t really work with everything, so you are forced to use their HUBs

[@ResinChemTech]

I think there is a strong likelihood of that... or at a minimum, they will make basic communications possible... just enough to get the certification and put a new badge on their packaging, but lock all the things you really want to do with the device behind their proprietary systems. I guess only time will tell! But I think the question about Home Assistant's direction and their target market still stand... with or without Matter. Matter might have an impact... but that is probably a few years down the road at best... if ever.

[@marcusone1]

z-wave you never need their hubs... why z-wave is so much more expensive, you cannot even buy the chip en-mass unless you certify your device to follow the protocol perfectly. zigbee doesn't, why you see those with "quirks". But again, most ZHA and z2m have solved that with, lol, a package called "quirks" i believe that interprets the signal data. Matter is just a way for the big players to keep control of your data imo.

[@jaykay5369]

I've had 0 issues integrating 50+ devices from 10+ manufacturers over Zigbee, all though Z2M & Mosquitto dockers to HA, via a generic Zigbee adaptor - no manufacturer hubs at all.

[@hansberg1991]

Home Assistant really needs to speed up its usability and friendliness to the non tech user - I love it but it's far from easy

[@ResinChemTech]

I'm all for that... as long as the increase in usability isn't at the expense of the ability to use many of the features and options that many of us used to built our home automation platform and the things that attracted us to Home Assistant in the first place. If they can do more things like the UI automation editor, which left the ability to create automations in YAML completely intact, then I'm all for it! Growing a bigger user base is good for everyone involved.

[@knallaff]

see the great energy dashboard... much too complicated and time-consuming for normal people.

[@lewiskelly14]

I agree. Outside of software compatibility (which would follow the most popular OS naturally), I expect Windows is more popular than Linux because of the GUI. Linux has traditionally been a command line OS.

[@Shellyfi]

@@knallaff energy dashboard is nice, but some reason can’t use it’s values as sensor and that’s big missing part of that function. Can’t use calculated daily/monthly total energy cost as value to present in lovelace view

[@keetam_worth82]

No way! Non-tech users have Homey, HomeKit, SmartThings. Simplification and user-friendliness always come with less and less personalization and in-depth configuration possibilities. Leave simple, user friendly hubs to be used by non-tech people, leave us the hard stuff!

[@Ian_Burt]

I love the usefulness of HA. However I have found I have neither the time or patience to use it. Inevitably what ever decides to just not work anymore does so when I just want to finally sit down at the end of a long day and now all of a sudden light automation won't run, or my door won't unlock automatically, or what ever could be the most inconvenient thing to stop working does so at the most inconvenient time, sometimes without explanation. I need a system I can set up and it just works, reliably. I just don't have the time HA seems to require. Worse yet, it isn't something I can comfortably install at Mom's house to make her 87 year old life easier.

[@ResinChemTech]

You are correct on all your points. And I think the things you mention are some of the things I believe they are trying to improve. Personally, I really like Home Assistant but I do have the time and desire to tinker with it and give it the care and feeding that it seems to constantly need. But I think your opinion is like many, many others who tried Home Assistant, or quit on it before even really starting. Even if someone has the ability, they may not have the desire or time to mess with it and deal with all the rapid updates, breaking changes, etc. Home Assistant is a very, very long way from being a system you can just install and forget about... like at your Mom's home. So, the question I have is that what they should try to become? And how many of the current features that those of us have come to rely on in our own smart homes will have to be sacrificed to get there... if they ever can? Or do they leave that market segment to the Amazon/Google/Apple crowd and focus on being the best at what they are today? I think this question applies regardless of how the Matter situation plays out. Thanks for taking time to leave a comment. Your thoughts are very similar to many others that I've talked to that tried Home Assistant... or gave up on it before even installing after just reading about it.

[@RACAPE]

I tried to setup an automation in Google Home when my Philips hue motion sensor stop detecting motion for 00 hours, 00 minutes, 5 seconds, turn off the light, but I can’t make it work. Nothing happens. I tried to make google say something when no motion is detected, but still nothing. The “stop detected motion” is a mess on google home for now.

[@PeterPavlik72]

Yes, but to apply changes done in yaml config you need to restart HA which could be time consuming during testing. The other side you mentioned is after moving integration config to GUI we usually lost some important tweak parameters available before (in yaml config). The ideal solution would be to force integration maintainers to implement all parameters to GUI configuration so we don't loose anything. In general I love local HA and would never changed for some cloud-based (slower, because my internet speed and latency is bad) solution.

[@ResinChemTech]

I'm right there with you... I love Home Assistant and currently wouldn't even consider another system. You are correct about restarting Home Assistant (and this was pretty painful back in the days when I was running on a Raspberry Pi... it's much faster now with a VM) but in Home Assistant's defense, the ability to just reload automations or reload helpers when a change is made has substantially reduced the need to do a full restart. And the most recent release (2022.11) further enhances this so that only those automations that you change get reloaded... other running automations continue to run without interruption. So, in my opinion, this has been a great improvement that helps everyone... beginners and advanced users alike. As far as the integrations, even if all existing parameters and features are required as part of the move to a packaged integration, it still takes away the ability to tweak, modify, and more importantly for me, understand exactly how the integration works... because I could see it all in YAML. Yes, if a breaking change hit it was up to me to fix it, but since I had a full understanding of how it worked, it was pretty easy for me to fix. Now I have to wait on the developer to fix it. This isn't as prevalent for the base integrations, but definitely impacts those integration in HACS (I've been waiting almost a full year for a developer to fix a known issue for one of those). Thanks for taking time to leave a comment. I appreciate it!

[@Shellyfi]

I agree with you, but prefer to keep UI integration simple to offer basic stuff, but for advanced features could be reachable with yaml config. Many advanced features are far off for new / basic users- they might confuse all those options and UI might look messy

[@partykeller1553]

It would be nice if in the future there were 2 variants: Home Assiatant as it is today (with all the advanced functionality) and Home Assistant Lite which is easy to use and can be setup by everyone.

[@ResinChemTech]

I think that would be ideal, but as someone else mentioned, unfortunately it would split resources (developers, contributors, users etc.) among two different versions, possibly making both versions weaker in the long run. But it's a great idea. I'd love to see more of things like the UI automation editor... a way for less technical to create automations, while at the same time maintaining the full YAML option for those that want the ability to do more advanced things. Thanks for taking time to share your thoughts!

[@partykeller1553]

@@ResinChemTech I don't think it neccesarily would split the resources. What I imagine for such a future is that both versions are still the same codebase, where everything is built modular (much of that is already beeing done today in software development) so that you are abled to simply include or exclude certain features (yaml configuration, templating, custom integrations, community addons, etc.) For the 2 different versions but they would still be the same, except for features that are excluded, so the developers would still only need to manage one codebase. Maybe there would be a few extra features for the lite version but nothing that would overload the developers. Another nice touch would be to having the ability to select which features you want to install in the full version. I have had home assistant for almost 2.5 years now, i really love the project and it was amazing how fast it evolved in this time. I am also playing with the thought to start contributing to the project myself and if i ever end up doing it I would definetely suggest these ideas

[@milutzuk]

Not gonna happen, unless HA somehow gets its own ecosystem. Let me explain, there are no HA devices. There are devices for other ecosystems that can be integrated into HA. There are devices you can make, ESP32, for example, via ESPHome, that can be integrated into HA. There are software services, voice assistants, weather, etc., that can be integrated into HA. But there is no intelligent bulb that can be plugged into HA and start working with 2 or 3 mouse clicks. Everything needs some degree of configuration, maybe some dedicated add-ons, to make it work. HA is not a car, it's a goddamn Boeing, there is a sane reason a Boeing has so many knobs, dials, and two pilots. So, unless some devices, let's say labeled as "HA ecosystem", don't get special treatment (autodiscovery, autoconfiguration) and somebody (sure, maybe a community) keeps track of those devices as well as the associated "lite" interface, HA is not going to have a Lite version. As others already said, what bothers me is it doesn't feel like production-ready (Nov 2024), like you wouldn't really entrust your house safety to HA, because you never know when a breaking change would stop monitoring a certain gas sensor or a certain actuator would fail to stop the gas flow. Also, I have this concern that, due to complexity, there could be too many single points of failure and an attack surface too great. Nevertheless, as a developer and sysadmin myself, I can only be thankful to HA developers for this piece of software and I wish them to live long and prosper :)

[@EngineerK]

Thought to ponder: if you sold your home tomorrow, what happens to your HA instance? Does it stay or go and how broken will your home be?

[@ResinChemTech]

I've talked about this a bit in some of my other videos. Every smart home device I build or install is designed to be easily removed and replaced with original equipment. We knew when we bought our current home, we would probably sell it some day. That's why so many of my projects (like my stair lights) are purposely designed so as to not require substantial modification to the house (or major repair when they are removed). I think your question is one enough people don't consider when building their smart home. Nearly every device depends on YOUR wifi SSID and password. When your wifi leaves, so does the functionality of these devices. Now, some might be able to be factory-reset and onboarded to a new wifi, but the ability (and skill level involved to do so) varies widely from device to device. And this is assuming the new homeowners even have the skills and interest to even try! Then if any of your devices rely on Home Assistant, the situation is even more complex. Now, the next owners would have to not only onboard under their wifi, but would have to have Home Assistant and the ability to recreate your entities and automations! I'm guessing that would make for a very small buyer pool! So, when time comes, Home Assistant AND all my smart devices will be going with me... I've carefully saved and labeled every light switch, doorbell and other items that I've upgraded with my own devices. These will all go back in place when I sell my current home. But it is a great question... and one I don't think enough people consider. Thanks for taking time to post it!

[@EngineerK]

@@ResinChemTech It's the only thing holding me back from deep diving all the way as we are selling and building a new home (so think about that end as well). This is where I think smart components (like switches which is the big one for me) have to have basic functionality and work on their own with the basic features you expect with a non automated home. I just used an 8266 to automate my fireplace but I still wanted the old school light switch functionality which I was able to achieve... But when we sell, the 8266 gets stripped out and wired back to old school. My wife does love using voice command now to work it (thanks to cloudflare tunnel)

[@danielrossi3465]

Like anything, there's pro's and cons to any way Home Assistant to go, for example; Stay as-is with the odd batch of releases that come out that break the system completely (never update to a .0 release) however with the way it is run at the moment, and if you are programatically inclined, you can hack, customise etc the product the way you want it. If it goes commercial then alot of custom functionality would most likely get locked down and you would have to pay for the software etc

[@disneyjoe7]

May need 2 levels of HA one for the ones whom wish to use something without daily updates and broken apps. Then the option to play program it and make or not something better. But behind the curtain not in daily system.

[@jesuschal3802]

Interesting reflection. I wrote a post about the limitations I found using HA in comercial and industrial environments. I think there is a niche for Nabu to go for a “Industria” version of Nabu Casa where site consolidation dashboards and integrations can be achieved without hassling with VPNs, MQTT broker consolidation, etc.

[@ResinChemTech]

I had never really thought about Home Assistant in a commercial or industrial environment. Having been in charge of an IT shop in my past, I think there would be a number of significant changes that would be required. I actually did a WLED install in our IT space, but a special wifi network had to be spun up because WLED wasn't configured for joining an enterprise network (LDAP and IDM)... and I'm guessing Home Assistant is currently in the same state. I'd also be concerned about security... has penetration testing been done on Home Assistant? Do they have a SOC report? Those would have been a must before I would have allowed it on our network. They would also need a substantial expansion of the current users/roles. I think Home Assistant could definitely see use in commercial situations, but it would probably involve significant work and possibly even a separate version of Home Assistant. Currently, I'm not sure that Nabu Casa has the resources to create, grow and support multiple versions... otherwise, as others have mentioned, they could also split Home Assistant into a 'Lite' version for more casual users and an 'Advanced' version that many of us like for the ability to customize, tinker and control. But I do think you are right... there could be some really interesting use cases in the commercial sector. That also goes to the point of... what does Home Assistant want to be and what should be their target markets? Thanks for taking time to share your thoughts... and the interesting idea of a commercial use for Home Assistant.

[@koenvanduffel2084]

As a rather new Home Assistant user (I did use Domoticz and Node Red extensively before) and found out that the learning curve of Home Assistant is VERY steep and indeed after just 6 weeks of use already ran into breaking changes. These in the end were just syntax changes that if HA wants to become mainstream should be solved automatically or at least HA should propose how to fix it. Hence to answer your question: HA targets people who know how to program (at least if you want to do anything more than switching a light). The killer feature for me is ESPHome. As an example I just setup my Air conditioner IR controllers with a nice screen (TTGO V1.1) in a 3d printed enclosure with a couple of touch buttons and temperature and humidity sensor to operate things in just a couple of hours (designing the 3d case was probable the most work).

[@ResinChemTech]

I totally agree. There is a pretty steep learning curve and you pretty much have to have some level of technical skills to use Home Assistant today. But they have (and continue) to make improvements to make that initial curve a little less steep. The initial onboarding and setup process is much, much easier and better than it was in the past. And of course, the new UI automation editor is fantastic for those that don't (or can't) write YAML. And I have no problem with these changes... until they start to impact the ability of the advanced users to continue to have that fined grained control over our system and forcing us into the 'generic' easier-to-use/maintain versions. The UI Automation editor was perfect... add a feature to make it easier on new users, while at the same time take nothing away from those that want to create automations in YAML. I'm all for changes like this. ESPHome is outstanding... and it actually led me to learn Arduino code. But much like the original automations, it does require writing a little YAML for your devices. ESPHome documentation, in my opinion, is much better than Home Assistant overall, but it's probably still pretty difficult for someone not familiar with YAML. I've heard a rumor (completely unsubstantiated) that they are working on a UI interface for creating ESPHome nodes... much like the UI automation editor. Again, that's fine... as long as those of us that want can continue to create ESPHome configs via YAML and no features are lost. But it could just as easily go the way of integrations... the decision is made that everyone must use the new interface, however they decide to make it available, and we lose the ability to create ESPHome nodes that we have today... probably not likely, but it serves to make my point about adding 'ease-of-use' features at the expense of advanced features. Thanks for taking time to share your thoughts. I'm with you... often designing 3D printed enclosures takes me longer than the entire rest of the project... but I'm not that great at 3D designing!

[@bugs181]

Since you're new, you may be interested to know that you can use HA to tie all the devices/integrations together and use node-red for the "automation" side of things. That's what I do, since setting it up a few years back. It's been working flawlessly for me.

[@atmear]

Excellent logic & break down. Thanks for taking the time to share this POV!

[@ResinChemTech]

Thanks! I sure don't have all the answers... and a lot remains unknown about Matter and other changes in the future. But I think asking the question about the direction of Home Assistant is a fair one. It's something I've not seen a clear answer on from the folks at Nabu Casa... or elsewhere. Thanks for watching and taking time to post your kind words! I appreciate it.

[@DanielSchless]

Excellent commentary ... For me, the two most valuable pieces of HA are: 1) its vast trove of device integrations, and, 2) its automation engine; these are both now under threat. I hope the talented HA community have a couple of tricks up their sleeve.

[@ResinChemTech]

Thanks.... to be honest, I was a bit worried about publishing a 'controversial' opinion piece... it's not a typical video for me. But I did want to hear from others about some of the concerns I have. I think we are a ways down the road before anything I talked about will come to pass (if ever), but I do think it is time for Home Assistant to prepare... or decide where they belong in the market, if a larger name challenges some of their key features. Or maybe share what their eventual goal or strategic plan is for Home Assistant over the next 3-5 years. As someone who put a lot of time and resources into the Home Assistant ecosystem, I'd sure like to know! Thanks for taking time to share your thoughts! I do appreciate it.

[@jmr]

Your video made me ponder a day Home Assistant forks into different versions competing for different markets.

[@ResinChemTech]

That has been mentioned in a number of other forums.. and in these comments as well. But I think the fear there is that you would also split the development efforts, resources and user base into two different camps. And would the result of that be two independently weaker projects than a single united project that finds a way to support both newer and the more technically-minded users in a single code base? I don't have the answer to that question, but it is a good counterpoint to the "just fork it" statement often made by others. There is some 'power' in size, especially when it comes to working with manufacturers to encourage local control on their devices, having a voice in the overall smart home community (like Matter), etc. Splitting Home Assistant would likely diminish those efforts, unless there was a single 'parent' company like Nabu Casa overseeing both forks.... but I don't think they have anywhere near enough resources (nor the desire) for something like that... at least not today. But definitely an interesting idea for somewhere down the road. I appreciate the thought and that you took time to share it.

[@jmr]

@@ResinChemTech I completely agree on those points and wouldn't expect anything like that any time soon. The team really seems to share a vision that I support. I would like to explore what Google is doing in that new beta but they have killed so many projects I'm hesitant to even test it.

[@BELSERVICEMAN]

My last comment, automations, UI and Yaml You had told me about how everything was done in Yaml in the beginning and I won’t use Node Red but I don’t mean to debate that here. No I am just half a year in to HA and I think creating automations is my favorite thing after building something to automate. I have learned a great deal by viewing Yaml and especially in dashboards. I do hope they work to give us the best of both worlds. Not that I use Yaml like others yet. I also felt better using the pre August release for viewing Yaml of code I created in UI. No problem because I can just use file editor.

[@YKSGuy]

Google just silently sends out breaking updates.. There are some rather long threads on how things just stop working in google home, or Google Assistant has a transcript of a command being translated correctly but the ACTION changes.

[@oscargr_]

I have a very similar issue with ESPhome. I have made plenty a home automation using C++ and some microprocessor boards (both Arduino and others) I can't for the life of me figure out how yaml code (they warn you not to think of it as code because it frightens beginners) gets "compiled" or interpretated into C++ that goes onto your ESP. Yet you can only do some very basic stuff until you start needing Lambdas... Which are C++ code written in your yaml file. So to get information from your ESP device into a dashboard, your device yaml code needs to communicate with your dashboard yaml code. It's a huge learning curve and the documentation is usually 3 versions behind the lates update from both HA and ESP home. So, not simple consumer friendly.

[@ResinChemTech]

I hear ya on ESPHome. My journey was kind of "backwards" from yours. I learned YAML because, at the time, you had to do pretty much everything in Home Assistant via YAML. So, ESPHome was great... until you need to do some more advanced stuff, which requires adding those C++ lambdas. I didn't know the first thing about C++. But as I learned more, I started writing my own Arduino code (like for the parking assistant) and using MQTT to integrate into Home Assistant. For me, ESPHome is great if you just need to add a sensor or two... something like a motion detector or temperature... from a custom built ESP device. You can't beat the ease of integration right into Home Assistant. For anything much more complex though, I tend to just write it Arduino/C++. That way, I don't have to worry too much about ESPHome updates breaking anything. But to each his own. I know a few folks that have done some amazing things with ESPHome that I wouldn't have believed possible... but then again, there is probably more 'lamba code' in those nodes than there is YAML. I appreciate you taking time to share your thoughts!

[@oscargr_]

@@ResinChemTech Totally agree. I m just getting my feet wet in yaml. I think I will stick with updating my existing ESP devices to use MQTT, rather than replacing them with newly created ESPHOME devices. Because they are a bit more than just a single sensor and they run for years without any broken features. Just not with HA yet. Thanks for your replies.😃

[@jefele]

Local control of matter devices and new/better automation engines and UIs from Google are fine, but my question is : where are your automations stored and what do they run on? Your phone? A Google hub? The cloud? Does that mean that all your device state changes are sent continuously to the cloud? And more crucially, does that mean that your whole home automation setup goes down if your internet connection does? That doesn't look very local to me...

[@ResinChemTech]

Those are all good questions... and the answers are very murky at this point. We don't really know how Matter is going to play out. The specs/certification call for the devices to communicate locally on your network, with no Internet connection required. But we don't really know how Google, Amazon, Apple, etc. will implement this when it comes to things like automations and their hubs. Is it possible that automations can be stored and executed locally? Or will new versions of their devices support this option? Somehow, I do think that these manufacturers are going to want to use our data, so I think it is highly unlikely that you will be able to do everything locally like you can with Home Assistant. And that might be a key part of Home Assistant's future that keeps them going and growing. I think that was one of the key points I was trying to make... how is Home Assistant going to adjust if another truly local option from one of the 'big boys' hits the market as part of Matter? Again, unlikely... but at least theoretically possible with Matter. Thanks for sharing your thoughts... I am truly interested in what others think, as I'm not sure what I think myself!

[@DanielKrennonline]

I tried to get into the Home Assistant echo system today only to be met with nothing but frustration just trying to install HA and get it running. This only leads me to second guess moving forward. What other frustrations will I run into. You would thing that the official instructions on HA's website on installing HA onto a RPI 4 would at least work as advertised. I really wanted to like HA, but thinking it will only end up being a huge time suck and a frustrated marriage....

[@ResinChemTech]

I hear ya'! And that is one of the drawbacks to the rapid development and update cycles. The "official" documentation never keeps up with the actual changes made to the system.... and in some cases, it is just wrong for the current release of Home Assistant. This also means that trying to find any information in other places (like KZbin) are often also out of date... this applies to some of my own videos as well. I try to update related blog articles and video descriptions when I can... but honestly, just trying to keep my own Home Assistant up-to-date each month, plus trying to update any related blogs or video description, is so time-consuming that I rarely do any videos that are truly "just Home Assistant", or Home Assistant "how-tos". I can almost guarantee that any video I do on Home Assistant will be outdated (and possibly wrong, or even misleading) after about six months. Personally, I love Home Assistant... but it does take routine care and feeding. And often a lot of online digging for current information. Luckily, there is a pretty big community that are willing to help out... but there are also some contingencies of "jerks" out there that tend to put off any newcomers or beginners. But you might try different forums, Discord servers and other online sources for assistance. And I'm always happy to try to help as well... although in this particular case, I'm not an Echo user (Google for me)... and I gave up on the Pi years ago and am running Home Assistant on a Proxmox VM.. so, I don't know how much assistance I can give with your current issues. But thanks for watching and taking time to comment. I'm always here to try to help other users as best that I can!

[@DanielKrennonline]

@@ResinChemTech Actually I had to give up on the PI and went Proxmox VM also. The PI for some reason kept having DNS issues where as the Proxmox VM install went smooth. I agree on the finding the right community for answers. I started on Redit and mostly got downvotes and stupid answers like what did I enter for DNS when the install never asked for any connection info. Ugh...

[@ResinChemTech]

Yay! Glad you got it working. You'll be much happier in the long run with Proxmox over the Pi anyway. The Pi is a great way to try it out, but for long term use, performance and stability, the Pi isn't the ideal choice... especially if running HA on the SD card... as it WILL fail at some point. And I can attest to how rude or obnoxious some Home Assistant forums can be... and to be honest, the "official" Home Assistant Discord server is probably one of the worst. While they keep trying to make Home Assistant more friendly for beginners and newcomers, you sure wouldn't guess it if you ever try asking a beginner question there! But a little digging around and you can definitely find Discord servers, forums or other platforms where there are a lot of nice folks willing to help out beginners and experts alike. Welcome to Home Assistant!

[@terryxperry]

Why can't they advance mode for advance user and have user friendly for avg preson.

[@ITpanda]

A little button that unhides anything that could break anything else or itself. Label it advance mode, or nerdify, hell call it guru switch, or on your own if enabled. Make it so when unselected any settings revert to default if they where hidden and go back to how you set them when selected. For good measure display a warning saying everything will break if you don't know what you are doing. Maybe it boots into a separate copy of the os and acts as a sort of dual boot switch. Everybody is happy! No one can complain.

[@lpfigue]

I think no platform can compete with home assistant and esphome. There is no smart home without some diy and some thinkering

[@_A_T]

Regarding matters, Home Assistant Yellow has a zigbee chip which readily supports matters with future chip software update.

[@ochjoo77]

I highly doubt much will change for home assistant, lets be honest, home assistant is even now a very niche product and really not used by the average Joe. I for one use it in my RV for same fancy UI to control everything via tablets, for my case Home assistant is really the only good option.

[@H0rnetz]

The local part is not just about "our data" but also not having our smart home not working because you've lost internet access. You also need to consider the fact that google, amazon etc have a major tendency to turn a previously free product into a monthly subscription, once they get enough market share. IMO the voice assistant and/or smart home apps are not gonna stay free forever.

[@ResinChemTech]

Agreed. I've mentioned the Internet outage issue in some other videos and even wrote a blog article about how my home fared during an 18 hour Internet outage (pretty much everything continued to work). And I've personally experienced the "free" but now you have to pay scenario. I had a Wink hub and a number of devices, including in-the-wall switches tied to it. When they announced that you have to start paying or your devices will be bricked? Well, that's when I ripped out all the switches and other devices that relied on Wink and went all in on local-only. The Wink hubs (actually two of them because I upgraded from the original to the Wink 2) are now sitting in a box, likely never to see the light of day again. Wink never got a penny of my money (nor will they). I also agree that you are going to have to start paying for some of these other free services, like Google/Alexa, or they will simply shut them down and spin up some new "AI-assisted" technology that does come with a subscription (and probably requires you to buy new hardware). Luckily Home Assistant has started down the path of local-only voice control, although I think they are probably a year or so away from it being ready for primetime. Hopefully they'll get there before Google/Amazon decides to start charging. Then I can treat my smart home speakers like I did the Wink hub. Thanks for taking time to share your thoughts.

[@hellomiakoda3782]

I think the best option is... Home Assistant for the advanced users, and Home Assistant Lite to compete, with the ability to migrate from Lite to full. My Smart Home needs are simple. I just started with Home Assistant in attempts to revive some of the devices I tossed in the closet when I got tired of using 4 apps... and found it solved something Tuya couldn't - controlling my smart hone from my laptop. (and boy did I try with Anbox and Waydroid!) (I was stunned to find my old Philips Wiz bulb didn't even need me to revive my app account to put it in HA! It just found it. I assume I'd have needed the app if it hadn't still remembered my WiFi) I'd probably be happy with a Home Assistant Light. I hate yaml. I can do it, but I don't want to. I want to push a button, and stuff turns on. I like an If this, then that approach to automation. But, no way I'd go back to google. Its bad enough I'm stuck using Tuya's cloud. But yeah, HA and HA Lite. Make everybody happy!

[@whited250]

"Embrace, Extend, Extinguish" - IIRC that was the tactic used by Microsoft w.r.t. Internet Explorer. Basically, support everything your competitors do, but then add your own useful but proprietary features (NOT shared), and make yourself better than your competitors. I'm pretty new to HA, but your description of the HA platform sounds like the UI should split, and have two variants: one for experts, and one simplified.

[@ResinChemTech]

I think your suggestion of a "beginner" and "expert" version of Home Assistant would make a lot of people happy. But Nabu Casa is a pretty small team and primarily supported by donations or subscriptions to the Nabu Casa cloud service (and maybe a small amount of hardware/merch sales). So, I doubt they currently have the resources to develop, support and maintain multiple versions of Home Assistant. There is an "advanced" flag in the settings that can be toggled... but basically all that does at this point is enable or disable certain features in the UI. It really doesn't impact anything regarding the underlying system, upgrades or other changes made. But despite all its flaws, I still think that Home Assistant is currently the best platform out there. It is my concern about the future roadmap (and the lack of clarity about that roadmap) as to where Home Assistant is trying to position itself long-term, that has me a bit concerned about its future. But I really hope it continues to thrive and survive... even if some the decisions made aren't necessarily ones I always agree with for my particular smart home situation. Thanks for taking time to share your thoughts!

[@clomads]

I don't think any of this in any way threatens Home Assistant, in fact, I think Google adding a scripting language could be a gateway to bring more people into HA by teaching them YAML. No one is leaving HA to go to Google because of a scripting language, and I imagine very few people interested in HA are gonna get Google hardware unless they already have it and use it as a stepping stone to HA. Also, if I recall correctly, most of the YAML configs that have moved to the UI can still be extended with YAML. If I'm not mistaken, most of everything is still saved as YAML on the backend. IDK if that's true for integrations, but def true for automations and dashboards. I've always seen Paulus be very proud of the fact that they're in the Matter org and he seems like he's always been interested in improving home automation across the board wether it's in or out of Home Assistant. Honestly I personally think anything that's good for home automation as a whole, is good for Home Assistant. I'm truly excited to see what Google, Amazon, and Apple come up with moving forward with Matter and Thread.

[@ResinChemTech]

Very well stated... and all valid points. While I'm sure this came across as more critical than I intended, I do love Home Assistant and am amazed at how far it has come in such a short time. And while I may not always be thrilled with some of the changes that are implemented, I feel overall that Home Assistant continues to move forward in a positive direction for all. You are very correct that most HA users aren't jumping ship for Google or Amazon... at least not anytime soon. But on the flip side, Home Assistant isn't likely to be a solution for the 'general consumer'... again, at least not anytime soon. Who knows how Matter or other smart home tech changes will impact either of those statements in 3 or 5 years? And I guess that was my point or question in the video... where does Home Assistant see itself going in the balance between ease-of-use for the non-technical vs. flexibility, customization and some level of technical skills within the current and future landscapes? And how much should be sacrificed for one in favor of the other? Or is it possible to create a system that allows both? One one hand, there are great changes like the UI automation editor, that makes automation creation much easier for non-coders (while at the same time maintaining the full ability to create automations via YAML... best of both worlds), yet there are monthly releases full of breaking changes that have cryptic descriptions and require technical skills to resolve. Andreas Spiess actually just released a video a few hours ago that makes many of the same points about too many releases with too many breaking changes... and he is much more technical/advanced that I am... so, I don't think I'm alone in at least that regard. But I greatly appreciate your feedback. That was really my intent... to see what others thought about the current and future direction of Home Assistant. So, thanks again for taking time to share your perspectives.

[@clomads]

@@ResinChemTech I appreciate the thoughtful reply. I think home assistant will come closer to being more accessible to less technical people, but I don't think it'll ever be mainstream by any stretch of the imagination and I don't think they should necessarily be striving for that. Sure, make the hurdles to entry shorter... but I think it'll always be a technical leap just to get someone to burn an image to an SD card. I think we look past that as a hurdle sometimes as technically inclined people, but many of us forget the dark days of having to use "dd" to get a Pi image on an SD card. Myself, I can code if I want to, but I hate it, even if it's just a bit of YAML config... so I very much appreciate any addition to the UI that comes. With my focus more on custom hardware that enables people to deploy DIY stuff easier, I'm even looking forward to seeing a UI config generator for ESPHome. I do agree with the updates schedule in some respects. (I actually watched his vid right before yours, lol) But it makes me feel good that they're actually working on a regular schedule... something you don't usually see from an open source project. I usually just wait until .2 or .3 is released until I apply the monthly release and things usually work out with minimal, if any problems. It would be nice if I could set it so I wouldn't get a notification until then tho.

[@olethronborg6240]

I agree, where ar HA in the future? My concern are the flood of updates. You cant pinpoint a specific update you maybee want, you have to take the whole package. As bigger my HA grows as more scared I am to do an update. Even if i dont update now, sooner or later i must and thats when the disaster can strikes. Another issue is when my Home Assistant has ben running for maybe a year flawless without any problem and i hit the update bottom there will be problems. If ive not ben inside HA for a year it can be very hard to remember how I build it and get in to it again and find the problem. Would it be difficult to split the updates in different parts so i could choose by myself, like you choose Addons? HA is complex and we use it in so many different ways but for me i dont mind if a longer betatest would make the updates more reliable.

[@ResinChemTech]

I hear ya! I think I mentioned somewhere else that when the release notes come out for a new version, I jump straight to the breaking changes to see what is going to break in my install before I even read about any new features! Most of the time, I'm not impacted... but occasionally a change is made (like MQTT) that results in a LOT of work to get my system ready (or fixed) as part of the upgrade. I feel like at some point (especially when trying to attract new, less advanced users), the developers need to quit treating the entire user base as beta testers. I know a lot of people like the rapid development, but you will do nothing but alienate and lose users if monthly upgrades consistently break things. I think the idea of of splitting updates is a good one (or two versions... basic and advanced), but I think that in many cases, so many things are interconnected, it might not be possible to upgrade only certain parts... and I'm guessing Nabu Casa simply does not currently have the resources to support and develop parallel versions of the product. Thanks for taking time to share your thoughts. I agree with pretty much everything you said!

[@Rcbeacon]

Just getting into Zigbee and Home Assistant, been experimenting for a few weeks, been playing with home automation since the late 1990s. Many systems that "will change everything" have come and gone. My suspicions are that Matter will not grow as fast or as big as it could due to big companies needing to profit from it through restrictions and links to services - otherwise it's a one-off giveaway. Home Assistant does not seem to be a install and use system but is more of a ongoing home project requiring regular technical support. Therefore the simple cloud connected phone app controlled systems will always be the bulk of what's happening.

[@ResinChemTech]

Great points! And I agree with you that only time will tell if Matter actually makes any real difference... or whether it will just be yet another failed (or semi-successful at best) attempt at device standardization. And you are correct that Home Assistant is a "project" that requires technical support. And while I support the concept of making it easier on those just starting out, I just hope it doesn't do so at the expense of those advanced 'power user' options on which so many of us have built our current smart home. Thanks for taking time to share your thoughts. It is greatly appreciated!

[@stevegroen8036]

Great "heads up" and detailed analysis. I would like to build a new, smart home but I don't want to edit software code. I'm not a skilled digital technician and want to start/stay with the basics at an affordable price. Matter sounds right for me but I'm afraid it will be awhile before it's clear where Matter will take us. Thanks for laying out the trade offs.

[@ResinChemTech]

Thanks! I think it will be a while before we really knows how Matter is going to truly play out. I think that Home Assistant is nicely positioned 'today'. People that are willing to invest a little time and effort can get a great automation system at little-to-no cost and do a lot of the basics without ever writing one line of code. But this same thing may not be true in the next couple of years. Thanks for taking the time to share your thoughts!

[@gzoechi]

I always found anything that helps avoid writing code way more complicated and cumbersome than writing code. It's just a drug to lure you in and then keeps stealing your time by making you think you chose the easier path.

[@picotrain5959]

I understand the drive to make HA more user friendly as this can only serve to broaden then user base, however the worry for me is that making something more user friendly tend to make it less configurable and therefore less powerful. I just hope that they can strike the right balance so that those power users don’t loose to many of the abilities that drive them to adopt HA in the first place.

[@ResinChemTech]

I agree completely and that is the same point I was hoping to make. I am all for adding features to bring in more users... as that is generally good for everyone. More users, the more influence Home Assistant has in the market with manufacturers and others. And I too hope that they can find that middle road. Adding things like the UI automation editor was a perfect example. They added a new feature to make it easier to create automations for newer users, yet didn't take anything away from the ability to create automations in YAML for the more advanced users. I'd love to see more improvements similar to this... but if they decide to 'up the game' on the editor to the point that it starts to impact the ability to create automations via YAML, then that's when they stray from that middle ground in my opinion. Thanks for taking time to share you thoughts. I appreciate it!

[@ianbirkinhead4103]

I am just about ready to start installing HA or something similar. To me the idea of automation is to reduce time spent doing Mundain things and having a system that acts as a reminder of things to do etc.. As I was reading your commentary I was reminded of years ago when I was working in IT and my partner was a an administrator. We set out to share a ‘home office’, but it was disastrous, she was busy using word and excel, and I was networking computers, changing hard drives, connecting printers etc, ( all back in Windows NT days). I guess what I am saying is that Google, Amazon etc will be the go to place for most people. They will never satisfy the technically minded who find the hint of a problem as a life stimulating opportunity. If HA goes the way of Google etc.. you can bet your boots another system will emerge to replace it, HA was born out of it’s predecessors.

[@ResinChemTech]

Good points! I think you are right that if by some strange reason something significant really does happen to Home Assistant (e.g. purchase by Google or other big tech firm), something else will probably fill that void. There are already other platforms out there (e.g Domoticz, OpenHab, etc.) that many of us could possibly migrate to. But I sure hope that doesn't become a necessity! Like many others, I've spent years and likely thousand of dollars in building my current smart home. Migration sure wouldn't be a quick process... and there would be a possibility that a number of devices, integrations and automations might not even be supported... at least not initially until the entire Home Assistant user base started working on them. I think it is pretty unlikely that Home Assistant is going anywhere any time soon. Matter may or may not "matter" in the long run. But as a heavily invested user in Home Assistant, some knowledge of their future plans and directions in the changing smart home landscape would be greatly welcomed... at least for me personally. Thanks for taking time to share your thoughts and posting a comment!

[@xmacleodx]

The main reason I use HA is 99% of my "smart" devices are usable without internet, however I do pay for Nabu Casa Cloud so I can use these with voice assistants (dont want to use my phone to turn lights off and on all the time). I think you are right with what you are saying, and I normally apply updates towards the end of the month to try and aviod the broken issues. Matter will be interesting but I feel it may be like the past attempts and they will split and the big corps will need you to use their own matter hubs/devices.

[@ResinChemTech]

Yeah... a lot remains to be seen about Matter and whether it ends up like all the other previous attempts to 'standardize' communications. Like you, nearly all my devices are local, thanks to Home Assistant, but I also pay for a Nabu Casa subscription because voice is how my wife interacts with most of our smart home devices. But Matter or no Matter, there is still the question about where Home Assistant is headed based on the changes they continue to make. Matter may or may not impact that, but in the unlikely event that Matter does work out and most devices can be controlled locally, and if one could use Google for most automations, could that hurt the growth or plans for Home Assistant? All unknown at this point. But you are correct, and the general consensus here and in other videos and articles, the number of updates and breaking changes need to be addressed. Thanks for taking time to share your thoughts.

[@wagnerfontes2]

Very important subject to be discussed by the HA community. We need to sort out the compromises involved (as updates vs stability; privacy vs commercial platforms; easy to use vs customization etc.) and look for ways to keep most (if not all) users satisfied. Whatever the decisions are, they should be clear for the long term, so that users are not investing time and money into something that will let them down in the future.

[@ResinChemTech]

Thanks! I couldn't have said it better myself! And while it is true (as plenty of others have pointed out) that Home Assistant is free and we don't pay for it (although I do have a Nabu Casa subscription... partly to help support the project), so we have no right to demand anything, I tend to disagree a bit. If it wasn't for the community and user base, Nabu Casa wouldn't exist... and the folks that work there wouldn't have those jobs. And if they take Home Assistant in a direction that alienates a large portion of the core that got them where they are, they may not exist in a few years. That being said, I do think that Nabu Casa and many of the contributors do have everyone's best interest at heart and are trying to make Home Assistant the best it can be. But why not share the strategic plans... or goals... or the market they are trying to attract. I have no problem adding features that makes it easier for folks starting out... as long as it doesn't come at the expense of the more advanced features so many of us use or what attracted us to Home Assistant in the first place. The addition of the UI automation was a perfect addition... a feature to make it easier for newer uses to create automations, without taking anything away from those of us that want to write automations in YAML. You are also 100% correct in terms of the amount of money (and huge amount of time) I've spent to build my smart home around Home Assistant. I they are trying to become the next Smartthings (not a slam against Smartthings.. but I chose Home Assistant over that platform for multiple reasons), I'd like to have some knowledge of those plans. I can then make an informed decision about my own smart home future. Right now, I have no idea what the plans are for Home Assistant in the next 1, 3 or 5 years. Thanks for taking time to share your thoughts. I greatly appreciate it.

[@bradactual]

I wasn't aware of Matter. this was useful and makes sense. I'd like to see more.

[@ResinChemTech]

As others have pointed out as well, there have been numerous prior attempts in the past to standardize communications... and none have really completely succeeded. Matter is getting a lot of attention right now, but that doesn't mean it will succeed either. But the release of the first standard and certification program seemed like a good time to talk about the state and direction of Home Assistant. Only time will tell how it all works out or if Matter just becomes yet another failed standardization attempt.

[@desparky]

Many true words spoken there. Perhaps Home Assistant needs to have two operating modes: Basic and Advanced.

[@Tntdruid]

I'm 100% ☁️ free

[@ResinChemTech]

I'm almost there! I still have a couple of devices still reliant on the cloud. But I have others that are 'dual-mode' that I can use locally or take advantage of their cloud only if I choose to do so. But I'd like to get rid of the few remaining cloud-only devices as well.

[@majoryoshi]

I feel as though Matter will only help Home Assistant. It can’t control (at least to the best of my knowledge) Amazon smart plus for instance. There’s a good chance it’ll also provide better compatibility with smart speakers. I’ve got an Amazon Echo that I choose to integrate into that ecosystem. I haven’t tinkered with IFTTT, so maybe the compatibility is already pretty good, but having that standard only stands to make it better

[@ResinChemTech]

I think Matter can help Home Assistant... but there is still a lot unknown about how it is all really going to play out. Matter may not matter at all in the long run. It won't be the first attempt at standardization that fails. But leaving Matter aside for a moment, I think the question still stands about what Home Assistant wants to be, who is their target market... and how much should they sacrifice in one area (e.g. advanced control) for the sake of another (ease of use for beginners). Matter is just another reason to pose these questions right now... although I've had many of the same questions for over a year now. I'm all for adding new features to make it easier on beginners... as long as it doesn't come at the expense of advanced features that drew many of us to Home Assistant in the first place. Thanks for taking time to share your thoughts. I really do appreciate all the feedback I've received.

[@dab42bridges80]

The beauty of standards is that there's so many to choose from... We may see Matter/Thread following the same trend, as manufaturers choose to put their own proprietary spin on the "standard" to lock you into their hardware. What I'm more interested in will be the use of AI to create automations using conversational language (the end of scripting/programming?)

[@johnolin6474]

I"ve made my own devices (micro-computer projects) that interact with HA so there are infinite devices that will work locally with HA. HA is open source and has a farily large techy base that is always pushing it forward. Home assistant is already working on support in HA for matter.

[@ResinChemTech]

I also create a number of my own devices. I really don't think Home Assistant is going away for a long time (at least I hope not). They did share some interesting information at their annual "State of the Open Home" today... including their work on Matter... but they still never really addressed the core question that I posed in this video. Namely, what is their target market.. or what will that market become? There were a few comments somewhat related to that (no one is going to start their smart home with Home Assistant, but may 'grow' into it over time). But if Matter makes it possible to do a many of the things that Home Assistant does, but with another "Big Tech" platform (one that many users will have already started with), how much motivation would someone have to move? Again... unless like many of us, they are focused on the privacy and local data retention issue. Only time will tell how Matter plays out... and its long term effect on the industry. Thanks for taking the time to share your thoughts!

[@rklauco]

There is a Catch-22 in your comment. Either HA should come close to Google and be user friendly, or stay with YAML and get the advanced features you like it for. From my perspective, the difference between HA and Google/Apple/Amazon should be the same as between Google Drive and Nextcloud - people that care about their privacy and independence will have all the comforts available to them with HA, people that do not care will have one of the online trio. The Matter standard will, btw, not end up as "cure for all" - we can already see some device manufacturers to implement only parts of functionality in Matter standard and the rest in their proprietary way, allowing them to keep the upper hand of control on their ecosystem...

[@JohnMayfield-NS]

Even with matter there will still be a LOT of closed or semi closed smart devices out there. Either legacy ones since companies won't update much of their old hardware, just sell you new stuff that's Matter compatible, or companies that choose not to join/follow matter but work with HA. The breaking changes argument is an interesting one and something I'd seen talked about in another video (not Paul's). When was the last time people spent an hour fixing things because of breaking changes? Not talking about the small and specific group of people that use a certain HA set up, but the average, general user. I find most breaking changes are either minor with no real impact, moving from yaml to integration (mostly handled automatically), or given many months notice of a significant change. Mqtt changes were known about for 6 months, for example, and it was just a formatting change. Less control vs yaml is a valid concern/gripe though, I agree on that. Really, go through the list of breaking changes and they aren't significant in general. I think HA will pretty much always remain a tinkerer's joy. Google's bringing out advanced scripting looks a lot like doing everything in HA's yaml. Will Google bring out a slicker advanced UI? Maybe, but that depends on Google sticking with something, and Google Graveyard is littered with great ideas... HA has made great advancements in their automation creation system but still has a way to go before it's simple for the average user. That, the dashboard creation system, helpers, scripts, scenes.. all need more work to be easier for the average-non-tech user to access - if HA decides to go that route. The "State of open home" on Nov 13th should be really interesting.

[@ResinChemTech]

Great comments! And it really remains to be seen how much of an impact Matter will really make (if any), or if will just become another badge for a manufacturer's device packaging. And I've already read articles about fragmentation of the market... and it just launched! I agree that in most cases, breaking changes are minor or don't impact many users.... until one does! Or as I mentioned, if you skip a few months of upgrades and then something breaks during the upgrade. I definitely pour through the breaking changes each month before applying any upgrades. But I'm not sure everyone does that and they just simply click 'Update' when it shows up. That's why I was aware of the MQTT changes... but for me, it ended up being a bit more significant than what sounds like a simple formatting change... I had over 270 MQTT entities spread out over multiple entity types and split YAML files that all had to be located and updated... and I eventually reworked my entire configuration into packages as a result. So, what might seem like a minor tweak to some can be a major issue to others. I hope you are correct that Home Assistant maintains its 'tinkering' ability. I have no issue with adding features like the UI automation editor to make it easier for newer uses, since it didn't have any impact on the ability to continue to create automations via YAML. I think it's great that new features are added that might make it a bit easier for folks starting out... until those features start taking away the ability to do the advanced things many of us want to do... and what attracted us to Home Assistant in the first place. I am also anxious to hear the "State of the Open House" later this week. But I suspect we'll hear a lot about Matter and then a bunch of generalities and maybe the announcement of a new feature or two. I'd love to hear something that sounds like a real strategic plan... what does Home Assistant strive to become... what is the target market now and in the future? But I doubt we'll hear anything about true plans beyond the next 6 months to a year. Maybe they will prove me wrong! I hope so! Thanks for taking time to share your thoughts. It is greatly appreciated.

[@JohnMayfield-NS]

@@ResinChemTech One area I'd like to see HA focus on also is making better use of things they put in, like the radio browser. It's there, but barely functional and no add ons have really been developed for it. I'm hoping HA is going through some growing pains right now. There's lots of changes going on and quite a few people being added to the team.

[@krikkenstein]

Nice video and a good discussion to have. I’m hoping Home Assistant wil keep polishing a simpler way of use while always offering the advanced option. I think they can live nice together. A second point is that old devices won’t suddenly go away. At least I won’t be throwing out all my devices and replacing them with mater devices. At last there is the thing that Home Assistent is a great platform to make stupid devices smart. That’s why espHome is so brilliant. And final final point… I don’t trust the big players. While they might not have breaking changes in their applications, a lot of company’s just suddenly stop supporting older devices, limit features, start asking money, have huge security incidents, etc

[@ResinChemTech]

Thanks. It's been great hearing the thoughts of others... and there have been some good counterpoints made. I agree that old devices won't be going away for a potentially very long time. And for the most part (emphasis on MOST), the Home Assistant devs have done a decent job of not taking away too many advanced features. I've said this in other replies, but I think the UI automation editor was a perfect example of blending the two options together... a UI editor for those that can't or don't want to write YAML, but keeping all of the functionality of YAML automations for those that do. If they can continue to do these types of enhancements (make it easy for beginners, but maintain the flexibility for the advanced), then it's the best of both worlds. Thanks for taking time to share your thoughts. I appreciate it!

[@videolan]

Nothing can be all things to all people. Personally, I think Home Assistant can hold its own doing roughly what it does now. I am not a novice but neither am I a programming expert. I use HA with Node Red as well as Alexa and Google. Home Assistant is responsible for around 95% of all my automation and I really don't think that will change. The support from users of HA with Github, HACS etc. is something the likes of Amazon and Google have never really managed in the past unless it has been solely for their own benefit - especially if they can stymie the competition at the same time! I like to think that HA and its followers are far more open minded and helpful to one another and "trade secrets" and "NDA's" wont come to the HA world. I may be wrong but I don't think I'm going to worry about it - but it's always good to think ".....What If?......" Many thanks for your thoughtful video. Much appreciated as usual.

[@ResinChemTech]

Thanks! All very valid points. And I agree (and neglected to mention) the large and helpful community. But you also bring up another point I mentioned in my blog... but not the video. Another fear of mine is that Home Assistant grows large enough that one of the "big boys" like Amazon or Google decide to 'acquire' it... then all bets are off. They could simply bury it in favor of their own systems, or slowly change it to something that we don't recognize today. Probably unlikely... but who thought that Microsoft would acquire Github? I think it is this unknown... and lack of any clear public strategic plan from Nabu Casa/Home Assistant that makes me nervous for the future. Thanks for taking time to provide some very good comment!

[@dnoha1]

@@ResinChemTech Takeover by big companies. That's possible for sure. That's why I tend to leave MQTT as central "hub", and avoid direct connection of devices directly into HA. Hopefully if HA is not accaptable in future, I can go with another UI. Node red is great automation alternative for me, sadly UI dashboard are not so flexible and fast to develop, and integration support and comunity are are not at same level.

[@martyb3783]

Very interesting video. I do not use home assistant, I use Homeseer. Though I have researched it vigorously, the main reason I have not installed or tried home assistant is because I don't want to learn "Yet Another Markup Language". I hate CLI, and do not want to have to think about syntax. I love that it is open source and free and very widely supported. I HATE that so many things break on some updates. Homeseer has some of these problems as well and it can be frustrating. I also resort to using VBscripts for some things that are too cumbersome for the GUI event manager. Homeseer works well with MQTT and Node red, so it does most of what I need it to do. My main criteria are same as yours, robust, secure, and completely local control. Homeseer accomplishes that for me. I have the same worries however, I dont know how well the company is doing, could be great, could be bad. So.... seems to be the other side of the same coin.

[@ResinChemTech]

Yeah... I guess that's the big tradeoff for any of these systems. They are either owned by "big tech", in which case you are going to pay for the service... either through your wallet or with your data... or they are privacy-focused, community supported systems that always face the possibility of going away due to lack of funding/support, or being bought up by another big tech company. I did end up learning YAML, as that was really the ONLY way to use Home Assistant back when I started. And while it has come a long way... and you can create most things without ever writing any YAML... a time will come when you need to use YAML for something.. a custom integration, a templated sensor, an advanced integration, etc. Of course a lot of people like you use NodeRed and/or MQTT, and only use Home Assistant as a front end/display. In that case, you might be able to get away without every using YAML. But for me, even in the dashboards, I want to use custom controls that require me to tweak the YAML in the dashboards. So... I don't think you could get full use out of Home Assistant and never write any YAML. But today's Home Assistant can do a lot... and maybe only require a tiny bit of YAML here and there. But thanks for taking time to post a comment and share your experience with Homeseer. That's a system that I really don't know too much about.

[@BELSERVICEMAN]

So I think it is good when people make us aware of concerns and the underlying concern is for HA as you love it. I decided to break it down a little. Matter, well right now my prediction is these players are all in it to figure how to keep their sales up. Oh I think you can absolutely count on manufacturers forcing you into a hub or mini hub to access all the features. I feel Aqara is doing that now with HA. I see this as the weakest concern at the moment. Matter. I think Matter may Matter later one.

[@ResinChemTech]

Yeah... everything is likely a few years away. The current Matter specification doesn't even include all device types yet. And I think you are right that manufacturers will find ways to meet the specification yet keep you on their hub or proprietary systems for certain features. Only time will tell how everything works out. But it does appear that the smart home landscape is undergoing some significant changes that at least have the possibility of impacting Home Assistant in some manner.

[@Tracherot]

Very valid arguments. I mostly I agree, but I do have one thing to counter. Home Assistant was NEVER meant or built for the non-technical. Its a platform for savvy smarthome enthusiasts and tinkerers, not your uncle Tim who wants to turn off the bedroom lights from his phone. I think it will continue and thrive as such, matter or no matter, google or no google. Awesome video though, how have I not discovered you yet? 🙃

[@ResinChemTech]

I welcome all counterpoints here. That was one of the reasons I did the video in the first place... to see what others thought. And I agree 100% that Home Assistant was originally built for the techies. But it is when they start taking away some of the power features to make it easier for beginners, that's when I start asking questions about the direction they are headed. As I said in other replies, if they want to add something like a UI editor for automations, while maintaining the ability to continue to manually create automations in YAML... great. Go for it! But when they remove 'power features' with the ability to customize an integration to make it 'easier' for everyone with a forced integration method... that's when I start to get a bit frustrated. But, like you, I definitely hope Home Assistant will continue to thrive... and I think it will... at least for a long time yet to come. I don't think Matter will really ever have a major impact on Home Assistant... but Home Assistant itself can sure impact its own future by moving in a direction that alienates the current user base that got them where the are today. Thanks again for the kind words... and taking the time to share your thoughts. I appreciated it!

[@74357175]

Great analysis. Comments: 1. It's possible that an improved home automation ecosystem floats all boats 2. If Google etc add scripting, that might whet more power users' appetites to switch to HA 3. Perhaps more products can grow on top of HA that simplify it. For instance, I've rarely had problems with the Naby Casa cloud service.

[@ResinChemTech]

Thanks... and all good points. As I mentioned, I'm heavily invested in Home Assistant and definitely want to see it continue to grow and thrive. I think my real concern is how Home Assistant is going to respond... or not respond... to the current and upcoming changes. I think it will be around for a long time to come, but will it be able to maintain its current growth rate? Or worst case, it grows large enough that a bigger rival (like Google) opts to acquire it just so it can be buried or changed beyond recognition. Unlikely, but I just haven't heard or seen anything about the long term strategic plan for Home Assistant... and I guess that's what is making me a bit nervous.

[@anthonycalia1317]

#2 is a good point...

[@74357175]

@@ResinChemTech good questions. Maybe worth asking at the upcoming summit 🙂

[@christianbejerholm8157]

Just try to make ocoprint send a notification wia yaml today now I see why it's probably don't worked 🤦😥

[@ResinChemTech]

Yeah... Octoprint was one of those integrations that moved to a 'base package'... and in the process lost or changed a lot of things I was able to do with it before. It took quite some time for me to create additional sensors on top of the integration... and numerous updates to my automations to get it back to something similar to what I had before. And I have plenty of other examples similar to this. Nearly every month there are a handful of YAML integrations moved into the core product... and it's not always an improvement to the integration in my opinion. But it makes it easier for the less technical and does result in potentially fewer breaking changes (but not guaranteed. WLED was already a core integration and it had a breaking change that impacted nearly every automation that used a WLED device... so even these integrations are not immune to the breaking changes.

[@andymok7945]

Will it support Tasmota and integrate EPSHome? If not, no godd to me and some others. 100% local based system and local control. It is like those that run Linux vs Windows. I use Windows for most of my work and run Ubuntu for other stuff.

[@SniperUSMC]

HA should offer two versions a dumbed down one for general public and Expert Edition for people who woykd rather have more flexibility. Linux maintained the command line and also has a GUI, could be something like that.

[@wapphigh5250]

so what ..my HA server cost me 250 bucks, and I learnt heaps doing it... what is there to lose?

[@ResinChemTech]

Well, at least for me anyway... I've spend 4 years building my smart home, and beyond the cost of the server, I've spent hundreds if not thousands of dollars in smart home tech... all integrated with Home Assistant. Outlets and switches have been rewired to work with smart devices... our network infrastructure has been replaced and designed to work with these devices and Home Assistant. Home Assistant has become a core part of how our home operations and how we are accustomed to interacting with it. So, if Home Assistant either substantially changes how it operates, or if it goes away altogether, it would be a VERY big deal for our home. Yes, I learned a lot along the way as well. But if you think there is nothing to lose... ask all those folks that owned devices tied to other services that shut down or went away... Insteon, Lowe's Iris, etc. (there is a long list of examples)... and found out that their smart devices were nothing but useless plastic bricks (Home Assistant actually salvaged the use of many of these devices for users). While it is very unlikely that Home Assistant ever goes away completely (it's more likely that it gets bought by a 'Big Tech' company and then buried or monetized... see Microsoft and Github), it would be a very big deal with lots to lose for many users of Home Assistant. Again, just my personal opinion. I appreciate that you took time to share your thoughts and post a comment.

[@wapphigh5250]

@@ResinChemTech What you just posted happened to me with Control4. I’m much more comfortable redoing it again with a non proprietary system that I have control over (yes pun intended) than a bunch of nickel a dime - ing dealers and a company that never cared about end users. Think about that for a moment - Don’t worry if HA “goes away”…the fact it’s been “built” by thousands of passionate enthusiasts (rather than a eye gouging corporate) is its very strength.

[@antoniodecrisci2369]

Very good points you raise! But I think home assistant will always have a bit of an edge just because of some of the things you mentioned advanced customizations and local control. And the developers are very responsive they will always be quicker and faster than say some of the big corporate companies. Being open source is also more likely to survive than as you mentioned already Google just all of a sudden canceling something. Either way I think this would also make home assistant better.

[@ResinChemTech]

I think you are spot on... for now... and I hope for quite a long time to come. You are correct about the responsiveness and speed of the developers (although based on a number of comments here, sometime too fast... with too many updates, too often). But I think a question that you bring up for me in your comment... what happens if/when Home Assistant does become "huge"... and Nabu Casa becomes an entity with hundreds of employees? Will they still be as "responsive"... or just due to the nature of their size and number of 'decision-makers' that have to be involved, will it impact Home Assistant as we know it today? Maybe this will never happen... but worth consideration. Or if they become big enough that another 'big tech' firm swoops in and buys them up. I never would have thought that Microsoft would one day own Github! Help us all if that ever happens with Home Assistant! Thanks for taking time to share your thoughts. I appreciate it!

[@donsfromnz6515]

You make a great point, and I think the answer is to utilise the the existing features more to support the non tech users. There should be way more emphasis on sharing blueprints for those that need help, while leaving the yaml for those who are comfortable with it. A solution based blueprint tool with parameters and a picker that is aware of your entities?

[@ResinChemTech]

I agree with you 100%! And as I've mentioned elsewhere, the addition of the UI automation editor, to me, is an example of a great addition. It allows newer, less technical users to begin to easily create automations, but it was implemented without taking anything away from the ability to continue to create automations in YAML. The perfect upgrade in my opinion. Blueprints are also a great addition... but I agree with you that they could still use a little improvement. A number of folks have recreated my LED stair lighting video, but nearly all of them reach out to me when they try to implement the YAML automations. I've created it as package to try to help... but setting up Home Assistant to use packages isn't very straightforward for a non-YAML user either. Blueprints, as they stand now, won't work in my case either. But if improved and enhanced (specifically the ability to create helpers), it would be a great way to share automations based on YAML with non-YAML users. Thanks for taking time to watch and provide your thoughts! I appreciate it!

[@MarkJones-lr2lk]

Seems to me like there needs to be two HA product version's, the current one for advanced users and a lite non-yaml version with better testing and much fewer release cycles.

[@ResinChemTech]

I think this is a great idea... but the problem (as someone else commented about) is that you split both the developer and user bases... likely making both products weaker in the process. I think doing more things like providing the automation UI for the 'less advanced' but still allowing full YAML for the more advanced is the best of both worlds. I'd personally like to see more of this type of direction. It allows less technical people to get their feet wet... and maybe even learn more advanced techniques over time, while not taking anything away from the current 'power users'. Thanks for taking time to share your thoughts!

[@Sabotage_Labs]

Some interesting arguments. Perhaps the fact that Nabu is involved is a good thing. Maybe there would be a basic user option and power user in a front end like HA. I do really like HA bit, there certainly was a learning curve even for someone like me who is technically and in a branch of IT professionally. And yea.. all the updates every month! It's like Avaya switches or the software company I work for. Send out patches to fix what the Last patch broke! I have over a dozen Tuya compatible bulbs and AC plugs. Seems like after HA sends out core patches, some not all devices will show offline in Tuya smart and HA. But, if I just wait a few seconds when opening to the control page for the device in Tuya Smart it comes on line or...open and close a couple of times. So, I have to go around the house and delete the device in Tuya Smart, re- add it...and they are fine until....the next patch! That's getting pretty old! They all have static IPs. Been thinking of either setting up a second wifi router to out just them on...maybe a subnet? But, I don't really have any evidence that it's a wifi or network issue. Just can't find any logging or know where to look to troubleshoot. Frustrating! I've looked on the Tuya IoT site as well...where the integration gets setup for HA. ARGH. The fact that HA os free, runs fine on a Raspi 4B and... Nabu Casa'a remote access services are a very reasonable $5 a month... I'd really hate for HA to go away. Especially after the time I have invested in it and... I damn sure don't want Google profiting from my data more than the do. Love Pi Hole too btw lol. Cheers

[@ResinChemTech]

Very good points! I pretty much agree with everything you said. And one of the most common issues that nearly everyone has agreed with in the comments, is the frequency of updates and the number of breaking changes being something they would like to see addressed. But I also really love Home Assistant and hopes the day never comes were I need to move to another platform. Thanks for taking time to share your thoughts!

[@Sabotage_Labs]

@@ResinChemTechGotta take the bad with the good and for geek tweakers....lol... the good far outweighs the bad with HA. Also, hard to really complain too much with free open source software.😁 Cheers

[@magnus33john]

There is always the possibility with any software of it losing its relevance but i am not worried that this is going to happen anytime soon with HA. Matter a great idea and it may succeed to some level, but greed always gets in the way. Companies want that extra revenue stream and are going to keep somethings behind a pay wall.

[@ResinChemTech]

I agree that even if Matter does work out (if the past is any indication, it won't have a huge impact for exactly the reasons you mention), it will be years before it has any sort of real impact. But the official release seemed like a good time to ask some questions I've been stewing over for a while regarding the direction and target market for Home Assistant (with or without Matter). In my opinion, Home Assistant is top of class for home automation at the moment. There are a handful of direct competitors (Domoticz, OpenHab) but they do not have near the user base or growth rate of Home Assistant. I just hope Home Assistant doesn't squander that by trying to become something they are not... and losing a large portion of their core users that chose them over the others in the first place. Again, not likely anytime soon, but I was curious to know what others thought. Thanks for taking time to share your thoughts!

[@ericapelz260]

The tradeoff is time and effort vs $$$ and privacy. It's only a matter of time until Google and Amazon start charging for their automation, and we are all painfully aware that both companies are farming data (if the service is free, it's not the product: you are.) On one hand I like the idea of a long and short release schedule the way many Linux distros work. Don't want to fiddle with it every month? Just grab the LTS release (Long-Term Support.) On the other hand, do I want to deal with all those breaking changes at once?

[@ResinChemTech]

I think you are spot on with all your statements. And that's the crux of the issue for me. I actually love Home Assistant and still think it is the best system out there if you want complete local control of all your devices. And I think you are probably right regarding Google/Amazon. Amazon is going to start showing ads on Prime (unless you want to pay more) and Google is notorious for just shutting down services... which would leave a lot of us with useless hardware. Matter isn't panning out anywhere like they predicted (at least not yet). So that leaves Home Assistant as the most viable way to assure that your devices and smart home will continue to function independent of any single vendor or provider. And that's why I get concerned about the long term direction and viability of Home Assistant as well. Only time will tell I guess. Thanks for taking time to post you thoughts. I appreciate it!

[@ericapelz260]

@@ResinChemTech I'm committed to keeping my data out of the cloud. Home Assistant is the only game in town for me. I'm looking at localAI, but I don't know If I care enough about voice to spin up a server.

[@purplematteronly]

Zoom out another couple years (or less), maybe all of this "automation" can be done via "describe what should happen" using platforms like ChatGPT. I can easliy see a day where there is ZERO UI, or complex tasks or action configurations and it's all turned into "when the garage door is open, turn on the lights to the first floor and take a snapshot using garage camera of the car that is entering, email me the snapshot and tell me why". If this happens, usability goes through the roof, my wife or anyone can do this and really complex stuff can be achieved. We shall see. Peace!

[@66davin99]

Does NodeRed have this upgrade problem as well?

[@ResinChemTech]

I'm actually not a NodeRed user, so I can't say for sure. I'm sure they issue updates from time to time, but I don't know how frequently nor if they routinely have a long list of breaking changes with each update like Home Assistant.

[@njsurf1973]

Why not fork it. A "lite" version that has more of a beginner vibe, and a full version that allows customization for an advanced user?

[@ResinChemTech]

That has been mentioned in the past... especially by the current developers when anyone is critical of a decision made on Home Assistant. Personally, as much as I like to tinker with code and Home Assistant, I don't have the Python knowledge, time or desire to fork a project this substantial and to maintain it. But some sort of split or fork is definitely possible... and maybe that's the direction things will go somewhere down the road. I really like the idea of a 'lite' version vs. an 'advanced' version, but I don't suspect that we'll ever see it as an official option from Nabu Casa. But who knows? Thanks for the comment and thoughts.

[@njsurf1973]

@@ResinChemTech I wish I knew more about programming. I wonder if it's possible to packetize automations. Possibly allowing for The choice between customization and plug and play.

[@pmaccas3925]

This would be a huge undertaking and divide developer and user bases, ultimately making it weaker and likely resulting in the ultimate demise of one or both streams. Would be better to develop a "wizard" layer option that can be disabled by advanced users. Enabling two distinct patterns of operation that HA and integrations need to work with. In terms of handling the pace of change, I think HA could look to adopt an LTS model to separate out new features and security fixes from monthly bleeding-edge releases. This would be a step up to a level of product maturity to meet the requirements of tech savy enthusiasts and average Joe users.

[@ResinChemTech]

I couldn't agree more... and should have mentioned that forking or creating multiple versions of HA would also divide resources. I'd love to see more things developed like the UI automation editor... one of the best new things about Home Assistant in a long time... although I never use it! In this case, they added a mainstream feature for 'less tech savvy' users, yet it was done without taking anything away from the more advanced/YAML users. I'm all for making Home Assistant more appealing to a wider audience. More users and a larger community is generally a good thing for everybody. It's when they take away things from the advanced side to feed the mainstream side that I have to start asking the question about the eventual goals and the actual target user base. But you make some excellent points! And I love the idea of an LTS model. Back in the day, HA updates were every two weeks and then they moved to monthly. They need either slow down the releases for more beta testing or find another way to address this in some manner if they truly do desire to become 'mainstream'. The current model of monthly releases, tons of breaking changes and a half dozen or more patches in the first couple of week to fix things isn't going to work for the average Joe... at least in my opinion.

[@K-politic]

I think the HA team is actually keeping to it's core users because many are techies but also allows for enthusiasts to get into this technology. I have been running HA for about a year and I am an IT guy but I have gotten people interested to run HA that are not near my level of skills, they now run HA in their home and have maybe 20 simple integrations and automations, it is all they really wanted but lets them learn more and more as they want. This gets them interested and see instant results, keeping them interested. History has shown us that companies will screw with open protocols and make them only with with X or only work with cloud. More and more people hate subscriptions, cloud accounts or the need for the internet to do simple things like turn on lights, I think HA will never die because of google, Apple or Amazon. The only thing that could even get close to threaten it is another community making a better local first product, and that I do not see today (not saying it will never happen). Maybe if HA/NabuCasa changes their local first model then that would also cause people to run since that is a core reason for their start.

[@ResinChemTech]

I really hope you are correct! And I'm all for adding 'easier-to-use' features that might attract a larger audience. As general rule, the bigger the user base and the bigger the community, the better for everyone... as you start to hold some sway with device makers to make 'local control' or HA compatible devices. We've already seen that with some 'Works with Home Assistant' devices. Just a few years ago, that probably wouldn't have happened. So, bring on the features that attract more users... as long as that can be done without removing some of the core or advanced features that drew many of us to Home Assistant in the first place. As I've said in other replies, the UI automation editor is a perfect example... adding an easier-to-use interface for 'non-coders', but not taking anything away from the YAML automations that some of us prefer. I think there is one other potential threat to Home Assistant though. They could actually grow large enough that another 'big tech' firm (e.g. Amazon, Google) swoops in and buys them. Either to find a way to monetize.. or to simply bury it as an annoyance to their own products. Now with Nabu Casa as the "official" owners of Home Assistant, not sure I could blame them if someone throws a boatload of money at them to sell out. People think I'm crazy when I say that, but who would ever have thought that Microsoft would own Github? Anything is possible when enough money is involved! I hope that never comes to pass... and yes, somebody else could start an independent project. But it's taken 9 years for Home Assistant to become what it is today, so if HA goes away (for whatever reason), there will be a big gap for quite some time for those of us that like and want local control and full configuration options. Finally, I agree that Matter is probably a pipe dream and in the long run won't be any different than any of the other attempts to "standardize" the market. Fragmentation is already occurring and when it comes to the mighty dollar, companies aren't going to give up a way to make a buck off their consumers. Thanks for taking time to share you thoughts!

[@K-politic]

@@ResinChemTech the buying out nabucasa threat is there. I hope that is not going to happen because nabucasa does make money and as long as they stay private it is really up to the core owners to decide if they want to sell. But I think if they do sell someone else from this community will try to start again (that will suck but better than the alternative). Keeping yaml for integrations moving to core, yes I get it. I have been bitten by that myself but I consider it for the greater good pain. The updates I actually like but I have only been bitten twice by breaking changes and both solved easily.

[@DaRanged]

HA is brilliant. That being said, the most frustrating things about it is the continual breakage due to changes in code and integrations. Sometimes it easier to just leave everything as is for 6+ months and then spent a weekend upgrading and fixing everything

[@ResinChemTech]

I agree that HA is by far the best platform out there... if you have the skills, patience and time to manage it. And as long as they don't take away the features and customizations options that make it so great in the first place, in the process of trying to make it appeal to a broader, more non-technical audience. Yeah.. I know I just contradicted myself... takes skills but don't dummy it down and take away the need for those skills. I think that's the position Home Assistant now finds itself in... and why I have concerns about the direction they might opt to take. That being said, you are a braver person than I by skipping six months of updates! I tried that once... I almost had to scrap everything and start from scratch. That was a few years ago. In most cases, many breaking changes don't apply or are minor fixes. But every once in a while, something like a change to the WLED integration or the pending MQTT changes hit me with something that is a major change on my end... not just an hour or two, but multiple hours to resolve. If there were a bunch of minor things tossed in there as well... spread out over six months of breaking change notes... with the possibility that one breaking change impacts another earlier one... I personally prefer to tackle the changes as they come! But I have a LOT of customizations, YAML and home-built devices. If I was a bit more 'vanilla' it might be easier to consider skipping a few upgrades. And Home Assistant has become so much a part of our house, that I will hear about it if Home Assistant isn't up and running for a certain length of time. I don't need network monitoring.. I hear about it immediately if something isn't working as expected! Thanks for taking the time to weigh in and share your thoughts. I do appreciate all the great feedback I've received.

[@knallaff]

Don't forget, we're all getting older! I already have problems remembering how I created one or the other, how should an outsider be able to do that? :-)) The system MUST become more idiot-proof and that is only possible with manpower and a lot of money... so at some point a sale to one of the largest corporations? ;-)

[@lewiskelly14]

To me I find the nabu Casa thing that they do to be too expensive, otherwise I will be happy to financially support them for long-term sustainability The breaking changes and not developing for both standard and expert users has the potential to push everyone away

[@gorgonbert]

Most of your points are absolutely valid… but could be made for Matter as well… if Google or whoever decides to cancel a feature or integration you are SOL… with HA it sucks just as well, but you can at least stay on whatever version still supported with your use-case…

[@ResinChemTech]

Good points. But the problem (really with any of those scenarios) is that you can only stay 'static' on a version for so long and as long as you never want to add or change much in your home. Eventually you run into a situation where you get a new device of some sort and it will require a 'minimum' version of some sort from your hub and you'll be forced to upgrade the hub. Many of the integrations and add-ons already have a "must be on Home Assistant 20xx.x or later". Generally this is due, once again, to some change that Home Assistant made that would 'break' those integrations or add-ons and the developers had to change their integrations to match. So, say you go out and buy a certain motion detector that has a Home Assistant integration, but you can't add that integration because you aren't up to a minimal supported version of Home Assistant. Now you are really in a pickle, because you could be 8 or 10 (or more) releases behind. And I speak from personal experience that jumping ahead multiple versions is not fun! But you are right... again, I know from experience that Google also removes features (unannounced) that broke some automations in my home. Unfortunately, none of them are perfect solutions at the moment... but I think Home Assistant is still be best of breed for what's currently available. Thanks for sharing your thoughts! I really do appreciate it.

[@techydude]

I was all ready to poop on this from a great height, but you hit on a few really important observations about HA’s contradictory directions, the catering to newcomers while also removing from expert user’s ability to do highly customised things. HA is still YEARS away from being ready for ‘uncles & aunts’, even IF HA decided they wanted to go that far, given the monthly onslaught of breaking changes. However your key premise to this concern is Matter, and it’s WAY too early to see whether each IOT device maker will truly embrace it as the ‘highway’ to interoperability instead of proprietaryism and walled gardens. So until then, I think HA has some time to decide what it wants to be when it grows up :-)

[@ResinChemTech]

I completely agree with you about Matter... it's way too early and I've already read some articles that have talked about fragmentation of the market.... and it's just out of the gate! It has at least as much of a chance of going nowhere as it does making a real difference in the market. In the long run, it may be nothing more than another badge manufacturers can put on their packaging. And I also agree that HA is a very long way from being ready for the masses. And I guess that was at the heart of my rant. What is Home Assistant trying to be... Matter or no Matter? I'm not sure they will ever get to a completely point-and-click solution for the general consumer... and what will they have to give up trying to get there, in terms of what attracted much of their current base to the platform in the first place? As others have pointed out... I pay nothing for Home Assistant and have no right to 'demand' an answer. But I'd just like to know what, if any, are the long term plans for Home Assistant and what do they see as their target market? I've had these thoughts in my head for over a year... along with a previously written blog article that covered many of these same points that I just never released (until now). Matter was just the impetus for me to finally decide to ask the questions about Home Assistant's direction and plans. And I wanted to hear what others thought about it. Thanks for your thoughtful comments... but more importantly, thanks for not pooping on me from a great height!

[@MatthewN8OHU]

I'll be honest; I don't see the ability to write all your code in yaml going away any time soon, since that's pretty much all Frenck uses in his Home Assistant configuration. I do see how moving the Integration configuration stuff into the UI like they're doing can be a potential trouble spot if you want to fine tune how those work and they don't provide all of the original options in the UI.

[@ResinChemTech]

I think you are probably right that YAML automations will be around for a while. They (Nabu Casa folks) have said as much in the past. And since the current UI actually just creates the YAML for the user, I think this is probably true. But the smart home market moves pretty rapidly and if the developers decide it is easier for them and for new users, they could easily move/hide all that YAML into something like the "hidden" .storage container they use for devices and force everyone into using the editor. Again, unlikely... but you never know where the market might be in 3-5 years. I think the crux of the matter (no, not THAT Matter... although we'll see if that has any real impact) is which crowd does Home Assistant really wants to play to moving forward? Or can they find a way to make it easier for new users to get started while not sacrificing the advanced features that drew so many of us to Home Assistant in the first place? I guess time will tell. Thanks for sharing your thoughts.

[@MatthewN8OHU]

@@ResinChemTech As I understand it, there are still a few things that you have to go into the yaml directly to do, like using templates, so as long as they don't added that in the UI, they won't hide the yaml from us.

[@ronaldhofman1726]

I use Domoticz for years ans is a good choice

[@mediacousticsmultimedia7359]

To be honest, those who don't understand what it means to be in the cloud, won't anyway profit from complex automations, as they never will be able to create some... And yes, I have home assistant for all those inconsitant updates, making me constantly chasing issues and traps in my installation, so that I decided not to update anylonger by the end of 2022. I am really fed up of this constant changes, breaking something in every update.

[@ResinChemTech]

I feel your frustration. But the problem with staying static on an old version is that somewhere down the line you may want to buy a new device but find that the integration for that device in Home Assistant requires that you are on a certain minimal version (this happens fairly often, as the integrations also have to change to meet changes in Home Assistant). Now you are in a situation where you can't add newer devices without making a major upgrade of multiple versions of Home Assistant. So, if you 'lock down' Home Assistant to a certain version, you may also be eventually locking yourself down in terms of the types of devices your can add in the future. I only say this from my own past experience! But I hear ya! Thanks for taking time to comment.

[@jeroenjaja4359]

Did you get any response of Franck or Paulus?

[@ResinChemTech]

No...and I didn't expect to. My channel is pretty "small potatoes" and I'm guessing they didn't even see it. My timing on releasing it wasn't accidental however. I released it a week before the Home Assistant annual "State of the Smart Home" stream... thinking that if it was seen by someone at Nabu Casa, they might address some of the questions I posed. But nope... nothing really. But I'm not surprised... nor offended or bothered about it. My true purpose was to find out what others out there thought about some of the issues I brought up. And based on the comments... I was at least successful in that aspect!

[@newsogn5148]

I’ve been messing around trying to get an mqtt device to work, and your video about it is the closest thing to it…

[@ResinChemTech]

I'm guessing you are referring to the video I did on using MQTT to integrate your DIY devices into Home Assistant (and not necessarily this video)? If not, then you might want to take a peek at that video as well: kzbin.info/www/bejne/h2G2YauFjJhooZo

[@newsogn5148]

@@ResinChemTech yes that is the video so for context I just left the building automation industry….most things there spoke BACnet… mqtt is not that different from BACnet as standards, but with home assistant the MQTT integration is not straightforward at all…. That’s why I am thinking there are better options for this…. Node red being my next attempt… to me home assistant is too far away from industry standard automation front ends…. I’m talking about Niagara N4 or Schneider electrics eco structure…. That’s why I think it is doomed in the end….in your video you reference in your comment you don’t reference the packages or the templates, or how the yaml creates the ui? Do you have videos that start at the very beginning installing home assistant, installing the broker, then from nothing to a working ui?

[@ResinChemTech]

Unfortunately, I was already a couple of years into my Home Assistant journey before I started making videos. And so much has changed since then, anything I would have made would be sorely outdated. Back when I started, you had to do nearly everything with YAML config files. Now, you can get a long way just by using the UI... even if it is actually just creating the YAML for you in the background. Dashboards are much the same. The UI will create the underlying YAML for you... although at some point you will likely want to tweak some of these auto-generated configs, and that's where knowing a bit about YAML can be extremely helpful. While I don't have any "getting started" videos regarding installing and configuring Home Assistant, there are a number of good other creators out there that have done recent "getting started" videos with Home Assistant. You might just try a search for "Home Assistant install" and look for videos made in the past 6 months or so. But if you run into any specific questions along the way, I'd be happy to try to answer them.

[@MrCWoodhouse]

2022.11 just broke my system! Although I knew the day of reckoning was coming, since I was running HA in supervised containers on RaspOS, 2022.11 blew me up. Backup was easy and I put HassOS in a VM on a 2011 MacMini and we are back up and running after hours of reconfiguring. Agreed that updates are too often and not tested enough. Nevertheless, for he, HA is the one and only solution, especially because of ESPHome, which allows you to build your own IoT devices in a snap!

[@ResinChemTech]

Sorry! But I think we've all been there at one point or another. Luckily, Home Assistant does make it pretty easy to backup and restore your configuration to a new installation... as long as you are keeping consistent backup (like anything else!). And I agree that Home Assistant is the best solution out there (for me at least). I'm just hoping they don't lose what makes them so great by trying to become something that they aren't... or what attracted many of us to Home Assistant in the first place. Thanks for watching and taking the time to drop a comment... sorry that it came at the expense of a broken system due to an upgrade!

[@Shellyfi]

Since last spring I’ve seen that trend to remove yaml and replace it with more limited UI integration. I think that sucks 😤 best way would be to keep yaml and ui integrations go along, UI can offer basic stuff but in/when user want more advanced options those are available with yaml. I understand that why UI integrations are so important, but at same time it feels like turning back for long time users. One of big fear is NabuCasa one day announce to support only Hassio installations- that’s bad

[@ResinChemTech]

I think we are basically on the same page. Now, something like the UI Automation editor was a great addition. It gives newer users (or those that don't want to write YAML) a great way to create automations. But it was added without taking anything away from those of us doing YAML automations. I'm all for these kinds of improvements to bring in more folks. I think Nabu Casa would love to move to a Hassio model only. It makes life easier for them, to only have one primary environment to test, develop, deploy etc. But I think there are way too many users on the other platforms that they'd know they'd lose. It's always a possibility... but I think they would start to slowly whittle away the number of various install types they support until they were down to only one or two... then finally dump the last one and leave only one standing. Kinda' like they've been doing with the integrations! Thanks for taking time to share your thoughts!

[@harambeduck4110]

The thing for me is: I am a privacy-nut and have massive mistrust against the "classical"/proprietary automation platforms (Apple, Google, Alexa, etc.). I'd choose HA anytime over any other provider to handle my automated home. Last year I've had all things within HomeKit - but I slowly migrated everything away from it to HA. I'm not using the Apple Home app either. I just don't want to... (and I bet there are a lot of people thinking like me, keeping the HA ecosystem alive) And yes, I'm a developer working full-time in service-delivery with production systems. So... I'm used to the caveats such a system brings. And that's also my point: people who don't want to get that deep into HA or maintaining their IT systems already chose the comfortable path with Alexa, HomeKit or Google Home (at least that's my observation).

[@ResinChemTech]

Count me in that group of 'a lot of people'. After having been burnt by the likes of companies like Wink and Hues early on in my journey, I've been all-in on Home Assistant for quite a while. Hence my concern if Home Assistant tries to become something else... or help us all if some day Home Assistant becomes a big enough of a threat that a company like Google just buys them up... if for no other reason than to swat them away. Doesn't seem likely? Who would have thought Microsoft would own Github? That seemed ludicrous just a few years ago. So, I guess that was the primary purpose of my video. To get thoughts on where Home Assistant sees itself and what is (or should be) their primary target market moving forward. And while there will always be folks on both ends of the extreme (I for one would never use Apple), there's a big ol' pot in the middle.. and what portion of that pot should Home Assistant be shooting for? Thanks for taking time to share your thoughts!

[@fibranijevidra]

It would be really shame to be forced to leave the HA behind mostly because it geathers such a great community, but those overly frequent updates and breaking changes really getting on my nerves. I have invested a lot of energy and time tweaking stuff in HA, and suddenly it can just become in vain.

[@ResinChemTech]

I agree with you! I can even live with most of the monthly changes, but get aggravated when they take away some advanced process, custom feature or a certain way of doing things so that it is "easier for newcomers" to get started... or easier for future upgrades. That's why I was calling for some sort of roadmap or future plans regarding where Home Assistant is headed and what it wants to become. I still believe it is the best home automation platform out there, despite some of the decisions made. I just hope it remains that way, with the ability to make the system into what each of us wants or needs... and the ability to do that in the way each of feels is the best. Like you , I've invested a huge amount of my time in building my smart home and also hope that I'm never forced to move away from Home Assistant due to it straying too far from its roots and what made it great in the first place. I appreciate the time you took to share your thoughts as well. Thanks for posting a comment.

[@Roedy_Coedy]

Oh my god thank you for pointing out the point release thing. That's the one thing that stops me from recommending HA to people. I'd be fine with bi-monthly updates if it meant there wasn't going to be 5 updates within the first 7 days.... And the stacking breaking changes if you skip releases... I think the team should make an "upgrade helper" which before you upgrade from the 22.07.01 release to the 22.11.01 release will just display all of the braking changes for you - not necessarily ones that impact you as that would be more difficult to set up, but just showing all of them for your missed updates would help a little. I love home assistant as it's such a powerhouse of opportunity. But Jesus, some of the stuff. Before anyone kicks off I've been a paid subscriber since there was the option to and have been using HA since pure yaml and IKEA first being added. Still doesn't change the points raised in the video and in the comments.

[@ResinChemTech]

Glad to know there's someone else out there that feels somewhat the same as I do... especially about all the breaking changes and all the point releases. I go into a little bit more of a rant in my related blog article (which I actually wrote most of over a year ago... and just sat on it). As I mentioned, I love the rapid pace of development and all the new features and integrations. But if it comes at the cost of all the point releases and breakage that it causes, maybe a quarterly release schedule with more time to beta test each release makes more sense. I never upgrade until at least two weeks have passed and they have hit at least the .3 release. Just way too many unknown issues to try to update on day one. But by waiting a couple of weeks, I figure that makes a big enough 'beta' test period with a much wider group of people and it's probably safe to upgrade. Thanks for taking time to weigh in with your thoughts! I appreciate it.

[@JasperJanssen]

It is entirely sensible to skip the .0 release. People do that even with releases from the largest of companies - like Apple’s iOS and macOS upgrades. That’s just an IT thing, not a particular home assistant problem. The thing is that if you try to go monolithic and have just a few large releases, it turns out that those also have lots of bugs and breaking changes. This is inevitable. The fact that updates come quick and fast - aka “break early break often”, as Facebook puts it, or “agile development”, as the more staid companies put it, is an industry trend for a reason: it works. Yes, if you install the .0 you are effectively an open-beta user. Turns out people like that, even people who would never go into the actual dev track or beta track, and it makes things easier for the rest of us.

[@ResinChemTech]

All very valid points! But I guess I'm asking that if Home Assistant really wants to go "mainstream", does the current process of monthly releases often with a long list of breaking changes that generally require some action on the end-user's part prior to the upgrade (or even just performing the upgrade itself), followed by 3-5 point releases in the first week really going to work? While it is true that even companies like Google will simply remove features, it's fairly rare (but certainly not unheard of) that a major company releases a version update that causes significant 'breakage' for the majority of its user base... and continues to do so on a monthly basis each and every month. I'll use a fairly recent change to the WLED integration as an example. This was the built-in integration (and not YAML). A change was made to the integration that broke nearly every automation that used a WLED device. (regardless of whether that automation was done via the UI or in YAML). Luckily I knew it was coming down the pike from the release notes, but it still took me a few hours to fix all my automations. But if Home Assistant is really shooting for "mainstream", I don't think the average Joe or Betty wants to put this kind of effort into their home automation platform. That being said, while I do occasionally get frustrated at some of the changes (such as the recent overhaul of MQTT that required me to update 270+ entities), I fully understand this is part of being a Home Assistant user, the power and flexibility of the system is going to require my care and feeding, and I'm OK with that. I just feel that the current update schedule and process simply won't fly with the average consumer... if that is the market Home Assistant is shooting for. But I really do appreciate your comments and thoughts. Thanks for sharing them!

[@JasperJanssen]

@@ResinChemTech different stages of the lifecycle may need different approaches. Where HA is now, I think they need to move fast in that way. They’re moving from hardcore nerd enthusiast users to a slightly less nerdy enthusiast user base - I’m one of them, in the sense that I am actually a hardcore nerd but if when I tried HA out for myself it would still have been in the state it was 2 years ago, with no or almost no dashboard UI, I would have jumped ship very soon, because that’s beyond how much effort I want to go to. Google is a pretty good example: they move fast as well, they update their stuff every couple of weeks. You just don’t see it most of the time because it happens in the background. And when they roll it out, they roll out in staggered escalating fashion - first to 500 users, then to 5000 and then to 5 million (or whatever), gated to cancel the rollout when needed. Something HA could do - if something was suddenly found in the .0 (despite the beta run) that was a game breaker, they *could* stop offering the .0 temporarily (I mean, I don’t know if the mechanism is built yet, but it is possible to do so, anyway) and start offering updates again with the .1. With what they’re doing today, bringing things under the main app umbrella, and kicking out the lesser used ones as well occasionally, I think they’re both streamlining their maintenance headache and making the product much more attractive to beginners. Which, on the one hand, you can worry about what that does to you as an expert user, but on the other hand, people don’t become expert users if they nope out three minutes after installing the thing. A solid base to work on with well defined hooks for outsiders to grab onto at several levels (be it core, add-on, hacs, or fully custom) is going to be better off with a larger user base, as long as a reasonable number of them pay.

[@rrrrrrrr290]

hey google ; do something: I'm sorry HA is not available right now : I cant rely on google to be working : but I can rely on HA to work : long as I haven't broken it : and if I do brick HA, I can resort in 1-2 mins HA is a hub that will work with Matter, so wont need to buy hubs from others Appreciate your thought as it is a changing world we live in never really know what is around the corner.

[@ResinChemTech]

You are absolutely right... and something I didn't really cover. I wrote a blog article a few months back about my smart home during an 18 hour Internet outage. Nearly all my devices and automations continued working, with the exception of being able to interact via voice (Google) because that needed the cloud. But (at least it's the ideal goal), Matter is supposed to make this same thing possible with everything communicating locally. The big question is whether someone will develop or update a hub that will also work locally only for control of all these devices. I think it is a real long shot that Google or Amazon or any of the other big players would do so. But you never know! I think that is the biggest thing here... we really don't know if, or how, Matter is going to play out. It may well end up flopping because none of these big manufacturers will want to do anything that might cost them revenue in the long run. Thanks for taking time to share your thoughts. I really appreciate it!

[@WereCatf]

There's always OpenHAB for those who do want full-on programmability in multiple languages of everything and the ability to define everything by hand. It also doesn't constantly break something.

[@chrislambe400]

Paul Hibbert thought me all about corporate greed. Matter will be just the same as zigbee and Co. Planned incompatibilities and obsolescence and only bare bones dumb basic features. Google will also do a corporate greed job on that beta you mentioned. HA need to slow it down with the updates and offer a breaking changes advisor.

[@ResinChemTech]

I don't disagree that there is a high probability of Matter making no real difference in the long run.. and just providing a badge that manufacturers can put on their devices. I really just used the release of Matter to finally cover something I've been considering for over a year... and that is the direction of Home Assistant... Matter or no Matter. But at least from the comments (and other videos/articles on the subject) nearly everyone - but not all - are in agreement about the rapid releases and breaking changes. Better to slow down releases a bit if it means better testing, less patching and fewer breaking changes... or at least more time to document and provide more information on how to deal with the breaking changes. Thanks for taking your time to share your thoughts. "Need more yachts!"

[@SniperUSMC]

What do you run HA on? Raspberry PI with Linux, or a small winblows computer or in a Virtual Machine?

[@ResinChemTech]

I started with a Raspberry Pi, but only for a short time. I tried running Virtual Box on Windows for a bit... but that was a disaster and only lasted a couple of months. For about the past 3 years or so, I've been running Home Assistant in a VM on Proxmox on a dedicated NUC and have been very happy with it. Fast, stable and have never had an issue (well, at least not with the VM). And having full snapshots of the VM give me an extra layer of backup... of the whole system, and not just the HA configuration.

[@mtweldon]

I love HA and I'm.. Semi-technical. I started HA back in the fun yaml only days, with a much harder learning curve. So 7/10 times it works. The other three times is many head bashing things, of which are usually from an update. I tend to skip 2-4 months of updates and sometimes I'm lucky and it's fine, other times its a weekend project where I might as well start from scratch, reinstall and readopt all the things. Reminds me of early Linux or ZFS distros.

[@ResinChemTech]

I'm right there with ya! In fact, it is my love of HA that prompted me to create this video. Like you, it was all YAML when I first started. And despite being a programmer/application developer in a past life, I had never heard of YAML. So, yeah.. it was a steep learning curve! Which is why for the most part, I think some of the changes to HA, like the UI automation editor, are great things... as long as they don't remove the ability for advanced users to continue to do the types of things they have always done.. and want to do with their home automation (the UI editor took nothing away from YAML automations, so in my opinion, it was a great addition to make it easier for others to start out). I do tend to go ahead and update each month... although I wait until at least the .3 release, or a minimum of two weeks... whichever comes later. As long as I read the release notes/breaking changes, assure I have good backups "just in case", it's pretty rare that I really have an major issue. But sometimes those breaking changes (like MQTT and WLED) means hours of updating the system before or after an update. Thanks for taking time to share your experiences and thoughts. I appreciate it!

[@bennylloyd-willner9667]

I'm reasonably tech-savvy, and I want HA to focus on local control of devices and a more nerdy user base. That way some peeps can use the ease of Amazon, Google, and other cloud services and be happy, and techies can keep developing and using HA (and HA only quick update the real bugs and do general feature and small bug fixes less frequently). To me, it's a no-brainer. Good video 👍

[@ResinChemTech]

Thanks! As I've mentioned, I have no issues with adding features to make it bit easier on beginners... even with a programming background, I struggled with YAML at first. As long as these new features don't come at the expense of the ability to customize, tinker or tweak things by the advanced user. I always point to the somewhat recent UI Automation editor. Although I've never used it to create my own automation, this was added to make creating automations easier for those that can't (or don't want to) write YAML. But it was added without taking anything away from creating automations in YAML. To me, this is the ideal solution... go right ahead and add all the wizards, UI elements and other features you want to attract less tech-savvy users... just don't do it at the expense of the features we more techy and advanced users like. Personally, I like to write my automations in YAML. I know exactly how it works... and exactly how to fix it if it breaks or I want to change something. I would not have any problems with many of the integrations moving into a baseline packages if they hadn't removed my ability to customize and maintain those configurations myself. Even if that meant that my integrations were subject to more breaking changes, it would have been my choice as opposed to the choice being made for me. Regardless of how it probably came across in the video, I do love Home Assistant and believe it is the best system for home automation out there. But it's also this love that has me concerned that Home Assistant may be trying to become something else... and lose a number of the features that drew me to it in the first place. Thanks for taking time to share your thoughts!

[@bennylloyd-willner9667]

@@ResinChemTech I think we are very well aligned in opinion. I also think there are no problems with making easier UI with point and click, as long as the programmable functions remains. I'll keep HA as long as possible, and I'm pretty sure it won't leave the core techie users behind. For me you came across as a sound analyst of the situation with solid belief in the continuation of HA core values. Wow that last bit sounded like a speech written for a politician 😂 Long live HA💪

[@ResinChemTech]

Ha! Thanks for those kind words. I needed a laugh this morning. To be honest, I was very worried about publishing this video... an "opinion piece" is definitely not in my wheelhouse or the normal types of video I do. I was chatting with another subscriber on Discord Friday night just before the video released... and I was still considering pulling it. I was worried that the comments would be "toxic". But he convinced me to let it fly. And I have been extremely pleased that most everyone commenting, even if they don't necessarily agree with my take, have stated valid points and counterpoints.... well, at least so far. I suspect there will likely be a few "flame bait" comments eventually. I honestly enjoy engaging with my viewers and hearing their ideas and opinions. Especially in this case... as I'm unsure of my own thoughts on the "matter". Thanks again for the follow-up. But I think this will be my only "opinion piece" for quite some time! As I mentioned to the other subscriber, I have no desire to become the "Jerry Springer of Home Assistant"... he said not to worry, Paul Hibbert already has that job!

[@bennylloyd-willner9667]

@@ResinChemTech I'm glad you did this piece tho, it made KZbin put you in my recommendations so I now have another good channel subbed👌

[@bobdurk5180]

@@ResinChemTech I have read all the comments up to this point, and was looking for a good place to jump in. I can clearly see that all who responded have enjoyed the flexibility HA and ESPHome offer. I am celebrating 1 year working with HA, and I feel I have come a long way. It has totally been worth the time investment, I also feel I have made some interesting and useful automations that augment our life style. We have had several friends over during the holidays, and I have had some amazing feedback about the system. I never thought that one of the key benefits of HA would be my wife demonstrating the use of her dashboard to guests. When the wife is happy with how the system works, and she can demo operation to others.. you know you have a good system! My biggest beef is not having the time to do all the integrations that I can envision and want to integrate. yaml is inevitable when you reach a point in HA, I reached that point and face it as a challenge to reach the end goal. I guess I can call that my New Years Resolution for 2023! Thanks @ResinChem Tech for bringing this subject to light. Oh, I work in the high end residential AV / automation market, the difference is I can afford the HA solution.. and do my own programming and implementation.

[@anthonycalia1317]

I believe you started at the wrong end, the system as opposed to the 'user.' There are, and likely always will be, two kinds of home automation users, those who want a few simple things automated to make their lives more convenient, and those who are simply hobbyist. Home Assistant will likely always appeal to the hobbyist who not only endures monthly version changes, but looks forward to them, even if it means retrofitting some changes to keep their system running. The hobbyist 'looks' for things to automate without regard to the actual utility of such implementations, whereas Aunt Betsy and Uncle Bob just want their lights to come on when they pull in the driveway. There is a likelihood that the feature set of Home Assistant will merge with the other players of 'Matter' but HA will, most likely still have a more robust and comprehensive set of features aimed at the hobbyist / advanced users. All of this is just my observation.

[@ResinChemTech]

Good points! I guess one of my fears (and recent frustrations) is that it appears that Home Assistant continues to make changes that take away or slowly erode those "hobbyist" features for those that might be attracted to the point-and-click functionality. Each new built-in integration takes away yet another little piece of my ability to 'tinker' with that integration. I don't mind the 'point-and-click'... unless it comes at the expense of a 'power feature'. Is a day coming when we can't use YAML at all and everything will be via a UI? Probably not... but the last year or two of Home Assistant development points in that direction. So, I guess my concern is how will Home Assistant respond to things like Matter or something like a rival's script engine? I've just never seen a clear cut strategic plan for the longer term plans for Home Assistant... and I think that's what makes me most nervous. But I really appreciate you taking time to share your thoughts. I think they are all valid points.

[@74357175]

It's possible that the hobbyists serve to try out plausible use cases before they become mainstream

[@verb0ze]

You rightly called out that we can't have it both ways. It's either simple and easy to configure, with limited configuration, or a bit more complex, with truly powerful customization possibilities. I hope Home Assistant continues to focus on the customer base that wants the latter. Leave it to the Google, Apple, Samsung, Amazon, Xiaomi, etc to cater to the general population; there are plenty options there already, but very limited options for open systems such as HA for the enthusiasts. HA can complement and extend those others systems, so I don't think the big players in the market will make HA irrelevant (unless HA goes the route of trying to become like those players... Those companies have infinite money to burn, HA does not).

[@MaxGoddur]

SPORT ON....life is more than chasing HA updates and learning how to use them. Oh, one of my biggest pet peeves is folks hating on you causes you to ask a question about something you don't understand.

[@ResinChemTech]

I hear ya'! I certainly always try to help beginners without being mean or condescending. I sure remember what it was like being a beginner (and I still am at a lot of subjects) and the whole reason I started this KZbin channel was to try to help others just starting out. Unfortunately, this isn't way that everyone approaches it... and I'm aware of those 'nasty' places where you are attacked for asking a simple beginner question or for clarification on a topic. The good news is that there are also a lot of places that are happy to help and answer basic questions. I will admit that it can get a bit frustrating when someone asks a question (or makes some sort of claim) about something that is clearly covered in the video that they are commenting on! They watch 3 minutes of a 30 minute video and jump straight to the comments to ask a question (or make a "you're wrong" statement) about something that would have been answered or addressed if they had just watched a few more minutes of the video. But you have to take the bad with the good I guess! Thanks for watching1

[@BernhardJHess]

I agree. HA is too complicated for the general consumer.

[@knallaff]

My wife just said last week how long will it be before Amazon, Google or even Elon Musk buys HomeAssistant? At first I laughed, but seriously, the more such things are spread, they also increase in value and so the owners quickly only see money. We'll see, said the blind man. We can't stop it anyway. Sometimes it goes too fast for me and I often curse updates because one or the other doesn't work and I blame myself... the hobby user, but as you say, it's not really the never-ending one Magnification and the urge for mass compatibility?

[@ResinChemTech]

I actually did mention in my related blog article and in few comment responses here about the possibility of Google or another large entity snapping up Home Assistant... especially if it appears that are starting to be a threat (and drawing in more mainstream users). Some people scoff at the idea, but as I remind them, who would have ever thought Github would be owned by Microsoft? It can happen! And help us all if it does. A company like Google could easily buy it and then just bury it to simply get rid of the minor annoyance... or integrate it into their existing platform so it no longer even resembles Home Assistant as we know it today. I don't think Matter is truly going to have a major impact for quite some time... if it ever does at all. But I think the question about the direction and future of Home Assistant is still one to ask.. with or without Matter in the picture. Thanks for taking time to leave a comment and share your thoughts. And tell your wife that she might be predicting the true long term outcome for Home Assistant!

[@CompleteMisc]

I think Google, Apple, and Amazon etc will match the technology capabilities of HA. But I seriously doubt these companies will open up their devices fully and they will not make it local. The only reason they have smart home stuff is to harvest our data and behaviors for their use. So HA will be relevant for those who want local control and privacy. That said, the user base for HA will always be small.

[@electronicdirt]

X10, ZigBee, WiFi, Zwave, Bluetooth...etc, and now Matter/Thread. Over the years since 80's automation, they all were aimed at changing the game. I don't really foresee Matter/Thread being the defacto protocols that completely change everything. It maybe the first protocol that is widely accepted by more vendors, but the vendors aren't going to just bow down to the new protocol and start throwing money at it offering everything on the table that's possible with their products to end users at the cost of lowering profits. There will always be a catch so to speak. Home assistant will be around for a long time due to the fact it's open source and offers all of these protocols and more under one roof. It'll be a long time before a single protocol covers every device out there.

[@ResinChemTech]

Ah... X10, I totally forgot about that one! You are right and 'standardization' has been tried many times before. Matter may fare no better than any of its predecessors. I don't expect even optimistically that it will be a great big sandbox where everyone plays nicely together. I think my bigger question is where Home Assistant is headed (whether Matter plays out or not... and even if it does, it will be years). If they are trying for 'mainstream' status, they are a long way from getting there. If they are just making it easier for less technical folks to get started... I'm all for that... until they start to strip away features and functionality that brought much of their current core user base to them in the first place. I didn't mention this in the video, but did in my related blog, what if they do grow big enough to start attracting a bit more of the non-techy crowd? Could there be a point where someone like Google sweeps in to buy them... even if it is just to eliminate the annoyance? I wouldn't have thought that possible, but as I said in another reply, who would have thought that Microsoft would own Github? If something like that were ever to come to pass... help us all! Thanks for taking time to share your thoughts. They are all valid points.

[@richardhlavna]

I agree with your assumptions.

[@jameshancock]

Google: won’t use because I’m the product AND it’s online. Amazon the same. Apple HomeKit? Maybe. Home assistant with matter/thread ends esphome over time, but doesn’t end home assistant itself. And because of matter, most of the integrations go away which is the vast majority of the changes. I would like real mobile apps that aren’t just wrappers though.

[@ResinChemTech]

I think it remains to be seen if Matter really even catches on and whether it even has an impact at all. There are plenty of other examples in the past where this has been attempted but didn't fully succeed. I think that Home Assistant is going to be around for quite some time. But if they continue to make changes that move them too far away from the features that drew many of them to Home Assistant in the first place.... chasing new users while forgetting about the current one... then it is possible that Home Assistant could eventually create their own failure, with or without Matter. I don't really think this is very likely, but it is something to consider and maybe a reason to ask about the current direction and goals of Home Assistant over the next few years. Thanks for taking time to share your thoughts!

[@jameshancock]

@@ResinChemTech 100% agree. Just think there’s an obvious avenue for them with matter. Which should also tell them that a standardized API on top of integrations should be reevaluated. A Wi-Fi with Bluetooth pairing with discovery and standard sensors and events etc that’s open source for anyone would go a long way and Chinese companies especially would adopt and the rest of us could build it in with a standard esp library and code for raspberry pis etc. Then they can go slower and integrations don’t break constantly.

[@OldePhart]

If Google shows an interest it's because they intend to monetize it once the free userbase beta tests it into practicality. And once that happens it will end up being something like Nest that pleases no one but is able to integrate with Googles automation systems.

[@briandurward]

Very interesting video. For me; node red and mqtt (and the ability to backup... restore is interesting) are the main reasons for using home assistant. I also use zigbee2mqtt which is a great add on in Home Assistant. My integrations are all in node red. So I guess its a hobyist platform for me!

[@ResinChemTech]

Thanks... I'm just an avid Home Assistant user, but have seen some changes in direction in the development which is why I wanted to throw this out there to see what others think. It certainly has been a hobbyist platform up until now... and I knew and understood that going into it. Therein lies the big question... is that what they will remain, or are they going to try to become something else... and how much of the 'hobbyist' features will be sacrificed in order to become "something else"? Right now, I still feel that it is the best platform going for local, private and secure home automation. I just hope it retains some resemblance to that as it moves forward and tries to become more appealing to a wider audience. Thanks for taking time to comment!

[@briandurward]

If push comes to shove I could continue with node red, mqtt, zigbee2mqtt. Home Assistant is good for back ups (up to a point).

[@sekt1953]

ha is already running from their promises, helpers created in the UI are now hidden away in a hidden directory, namely .storage, when will this happen with automations, and do not have .yaml file ext

[@ResinChemTech]

I hear ya! I'm waiting for the day when YAML won't be available at all. There is an official statement from Home Assistant made sometime in 2020... that YAML wasn't going away. And while it hasn't gone away completely yet... it seems like every new release strips away just a little bit more of my ability to do something in YAML in exchange for a built-in integration or some other features. With the newer UI automation editor, how long will it be before YAML is completely unavailable to the end user? I realize that changes in the market, standards, device types, etc. can force changes to be made to stay relevant. Matter may or may not be one of these market changes. That remains to be seen. And while I'm all for adding new features like the UI automation editor that makes it easier for beginners as long as those features don't take away from the ability to continue to do advanced configurations for those of us that choose to do so. Thanks for taking time to post a comment. I think it is a key point in time for Home Assistant to decide their future direction.

[@sekt1953]

@@ResinChemTech I AM ok Witherspoon grafik ui as long I have yaml

[@tortysoft]

I build my own addons - it's easier than working out the vagaries of Home Assistant - which I do use in part.

[@ResinChemTech]

I do some of that with MQTT on devices that I've built. But even then, Home Assistant is pushing out an update that has forced me to update nearly 300 MQTT entities that I have defined and use in automations. I personally can live with the updates and breaking changes... but the 'average' consumer won't generally want (or will be able) to do so. So, if that's the case, the question is whether Home Assistant should continue to pursue that type of market... often at the expense of its more technical user base.

[@alanmillar2905]

The number one reason I use Home Assistant is that it's open source. I don't care whether Nabu Casa sells out or gets acquired or whatever. Home Assistant was around before they existed, and will be around after they're gone. Just like Open Office-- nobody cares any more what Oracle or Apache did. LibreOffice lives on, and Home Assistant will too.

[@James02876]

I wouldn't trust google to not kill this project, or any project. I'm done investing effort in any of their new stuff, I've been burned too many times. Reader. Play Music. Google+. Hangouts. Android Things. Stadia. App Maker. Cloud print. Nexus player. Inbox. Those are just the ones I remember using...

[@ResinChemTech]

It's been mentioned a few time here in the comments... and I brought it up in my blog as well.. that if Home Assistant grows too big and/or changes enough that it does start to draw in slightly more mainstream users, it is entirely possible a company like Google (or Amazon or some other big name) swoops in and buys them... if for no other reason than to bury it and eliminate a minor annoyance. And even if they did try to keep it running for a while, it would definitely be monetized in some manner... or like you mentioned, just shutdown with little to no warning. And as I also said to the people that might think this idea is ridiculous...the idea of Microsoft owning Github would have been considered just as crazy not too long ago! Yeah, I know... Home Assistant is no Github... but that just makes it cheaper and easier to buy and bury them! Help us all if that day ever occurs! Thanks for taking time to post a comment and share your thoughts.