Response to SKALLAGRIM: Is HEMA (Historical European Martial Arts) TOO ELITIST?

[@Skallagrim]

Thanks for the response! People commenting on the title instead of the content of the video? No way... I thought the internet was a place of enlightened intellectual discourse! xD Seriously though, it is surprisingly common and still baffles me sometimes. It's like reviewing a book based on the cover, without reading it. I agree that if something is not based on historical sources it's not HEMA. Although there is some gray area, where you have sources that are not manuscripts specifically written about fighting that were meant as a learning resource. For example when people try to reconstruct Roman sword fighting, be it legionaries on the battlefield or gladiators in the arena, it is definitely more speculative due to the limited direct sources, but does it still count as HEMA? I'm a bit on the fence about that but would say that in the strict sense of the term it is. It's historical (albeit with more vague sources), it's European, and it's an interpretation of martial arts that works functionally. Roland Warzecha's work on Viking sword fighting is interesting in that regard too. Obviously he is a HEMA practitioner because he practices based on I.33 for instance. When applying I.33 to Viking sword fighting however it's obviously anachronistic, even though I understand why he does it. Can Viking swordsmanship be HEMA, considering that we have very little direct, in-depth material to go on? Personally I would not want to exclude Hurstwic for example from HEMA, even though they don't have instructional manuscripts to go by. When you try to reconstruct Viking sword fighting you can definitely come up with techniques that work perfectly well. Which is not to say with certainty that they fought that way, and of course there might have been significant variation between regions. When I think of gatekeeping I'm thinking of some dismissive behavior within the HEMA community, where people are told that they don't practice the right way, don't interpret the manuscripts correctly, or don't study the "right" manuscripts, implying that they're not really part of the community. Those are cases where I would agree that the practice and interpretations are sub-optimal, but poorly done (however you define that) HEMA is still HEMA, right? And yes, calling out "bullshido" is not elitism or gatekeeping, I agree. What I had in mind was a dismissive attitude towards the validity of non-HEMA sword fighting (and sometimes even toward other HEMA clubs). Most HEMA practitioners don't have that attitude but I've seen or heard a number of times that people said they did not feel welcome because of reactions to whatever sword-related activity they've done before. Anyway, this is such a broad, complex topic, one could discuss it for hours. :)

[@SpaghettiToaster]

Isn't it true in some sense that fighting with the widest possible array of techniques developed over the course of history, potentially even including modern inventions if such exist, to use whatever historical weapon you're fighting with as effectively as possible, is closer in spirit to real historical combat than trying to imitate any historical style exactly? The same applies to unarmed combat, doesn't it? Real life-or-death hand to hand combat would always be something closest to MMA with no rules and no gear, it's the basic drilling for muscle memory that differs across cultures and eventually evolved into the martial arts styles practiced today. Surely, a trained samurai who lost his weapon and is fighting for his life, would have used grappling techniques, elbows, knees, uppercuts and whatever else the situation required, same as a legionnaire or a German knight. In that sense, any functional and sparring-oriented fighting with historical gear and weapons is historical, only with less of a focus on reenactment.

[@taekatanahu635]

​@@SpaghettiToaster I agree it would follow the _spirit_ of real historical sparring, but that does not make it historical because in order to consider something historical there must be surviving sources. Otherwise it is just pure speculation. HEMA is based around those sources, because we know for sure those techniques were used and practiced in history. Whatever you come up with based on your own experimentation might have been historical, but there is there is absolutely no way of knowing it. That's why most people would not call that HEMA, but modern experimental fencing with historical equipment or something of that sort. Remember that equipment ≠ martial arts system. Then again that is kind of blurred line, as not all forms of HEMA have surviving manuscripts but are reconstructions based on accounts and such. However, even in those cases the reconstruction has been driven by those few sources that survive.

[@taekatanahu635]

Also, real life-or-death hand to hand combat would look something like the 'illegal actions' list of MMA. At the end of the day it's just a sport. :)

[@benjamincarlson6994]

@@taekatanahu635 can confirm. Got into a nasty fight once as a kid, I'm not an expert in MMA or anything, but I don't think you'd be allowed to sit on your opponent and try to rail him/her in the face over and over until they stop moving. I also don't think you're allowed to just try and choke your opponent indefinitely. Both things that were *attempted* during the fight, but we were both about 12, so it wasn't nearly as brutal as some high school fights can be for instance.

[@darthkek1953]

>>For example when people try to reconstruct Roman sword fighting, be it legionaries on the battlefield or gladiators in the arena, it is definitely more speculative due to the limited direct sources, but does it still count as HEMA? I'm a bit on the fence about that but would say that in the strict sense of the term it is. It's historical (albeit with more vague sources), it's European, and it's an interpretation of martial arts that works functionally. Experimental archaeology, in non-martial areas, is considered valid archaeology. But the point must be transparency. The instructor should not say "this is how a Gladiator WOULD have fought", but instead say "we don't know for certain how they fought, but given what we do know from our historic sources and artefacts, this is what we speculate may have been the case" and because of that to invite other speculation and comment. The baseline of whatever historical knowledge is available must be given. It's not zero. So the historic baseline is given and it is openly stated what is and is not conjecture (some amount of which might be necessary in order to have a fulfilling evening of training and sparring).

[@thecaveofthedead]

'We're not elitist,' says man in leather upholstered antique chair next to glass-fronted mahogany cabinet in front of a rack of antique swords. Nah. I'm kidding. I agree with everything Matt says, just an amusing visual.

[@scholagladiatoria]

The irony didn't escape me when I was editing the video. I am somewhat self-aware ;-)

[@SentaDuck]

Would have been even better with a smoking jacket and fez.

[@bentrieschmann]

@@SentaDuck Matt should reshoot for those added touches.

[@scholagladiatoria]

You guys are giving me ideas that I'll regret

[@billmiller4972]

@@SentaDuck "Smoking jacket and fez" interesting point. Funny that the well-off europeans at that time imitated the 'sick man on the Bosporus' dress.

[@metatronyt]

What a fantastic and well thought out video. Nothing better than hearing experts talk about the things they know. You are totally spot on. I hope to be able to one day start practicing HEMA properly and regularly, although I would totally fall into the hobby/research category. To me the practice of HEMA for Medieval research is in fact much more intriguing than the idea of competition.

[@sabelfechter7136]

Thats fine but can result in really lackluster quality of the fencing. Im not into comps eighter, but put a big focus on counted sparring in our group, it drastically raises the skilllevel automatically, and is a ton of fun&motivation for beginners. People tend to fool around in uncounted sparring, which also means you cant be sure if the historical tactic/technique you just used now got pressure tested, or met little resistance because they didnt focus enough. And they barely improve to. We have point scaling for example, win condition for beginners is 5points, for medium experienced 10points, for highly experienced 15points. Counted sparring makes the fencers a lot more *aware* of whats actually happening. Also if you ask two historical fencers after sparring individually they both tell you it went horrible, but if you count points, reality is a lot clearer and actually positive, instead of negative subjectivity. We always combine it with coaching, so when they got hit and are interested how they could solve the situation, we shortly go through alternatives, thats the *best form of learning* , compared to usual slow compliant class structures. So at the end of the day my point is, noone is forced to go to competitions, but make really sure the fencing quality is the highest they can reasonably achive, otherwise its an easy excuse for mediocracy.

[@candleman2123]

@@sabelfechter7136 Classic Engineers building a tank (for example) and the crew get in and find they don't fit... Buuuut, humans are pretty good at being specialist. If Metatron did the academic side, and X other person gave insights into the practicalities (say scholagladiatoria) you can get insight that is greater than the sum of its parts. Metatron always seems to prefer the books, and that has value. I've not come across a vid that sounds like a scholars claim to practicality before on his channel. I agree with the principle of what you say though. A resisting opponent doesn't want to let you stab him, so will do things to stop you, and this will teach you about the ins and outs of a particular technique. Hands down, integral to learning any combat/sport/science/anything really.

[@ajoajoajoaj]

I feel HEMA's counterpart to Bullshido should be called Shitvalry.

[@Lord_Tcus]

Or ShitMA (Shit Martial Arts) xD

[@pattheplanter]

HoaxMA?

[@willmendoza8498]

@ajoajoajoaj agreed 100%

[@ManoNegraCG]

And its practitioners Sir Crapalot.

[@alexanerose4820]

Nah, the right term for that is being a HEMA douche

[@SackRingDice]

Friends and I occasionally go sparring, we use hema gear (protective gear, weapons, etc) but we don't call our sparring hema, because we just spar for fun. It's not larp, because we don't roleplay anything, it's not reenactment, it's not buhurt. It's like the Airsoft equivalent of sword fighting. We hit each other, but our form & techniques are way off

[@scholagladiatoria]

Sounds great fun and before I started HEMA is used to do exactly the same (but with less protective equipment, because it didn't exist back then!).

[@iprobablyforgotsomething]

I *wish* my friends were as interested in this as I am! I would love to SwordSoft'ing on the regular (or ever). I feel particularly sad because even pre-Covid, there isn't a lot of interest in swordsmanship of any form in WA state at all. And if there is any to be found, it's competion-style Fencing, which I have no desire to do casually or competatively. : /

[@Master...deBater]

@@scholagladiatoria Lol...as a kid growing up in Minnesota in the late 70s...we would sword fight with cut down hockey sticks and homemade wooden shields...using hockey pads as armor! As well as jousting from bicycles. Our manuscript...whatever we saw in the movies!

[@daaaah_whoosh]

I guess what's weird about HEMA is that the common perception is that it's just a combat sport, when really the combat sport came out of HEMA and has almost turned into something that doesn't even really qualify as HEMA. So then people see that, and figure any combat sport involving swords counts. That said, there's also a lot of assholes on the Internet who will belittle anyone who tries to get into the translation/interpretation process, so that's fun.

[@nicopetri3533]

I have never ever heard of anyone belittling someone trying to get into reading and interpreting the sources. More the opposite in my experience. In fact there are a lot of people on the internet telling people that competition and the sport aspect of HEMA is not "the real art" anymore.

[@airnt]

@@nicopetri3533 i have. Also outfits are commonly discussed in belitteling terms. (sometimes very weirdly, like drilling filmed at a medieval event, which by that token is in medieval clothing). commonly you see comments based on effectiveness being doubted by default of the treatise work, for instance. Or you see assumptions of basicality of fencing technique trying to trump actual discussion of sources.

[@sabelfechter7136]

Dude, Fechtschule (sportfencing competitions) was a thing 500 years ago, fencing mostly was done as a sport, the literal Grandmaster Lichtenauer is drawn with a sportfencing Feather-Longsword.

[@airnt]

@@sabelfechter7136 well, yes... though large parts of the treatises are not really sportive, like the mounted sections. (throwing horses, killing horses, fencing with lances) moreover, that sport with feders was done to an inch of blood on the forehead, ie without masks. so this sport they did play was rather different to the one we see now. In a way more akin to German fraternity fencing. there was also jousting, which was a sport , though rather different to the modern idea of a sport. 'tournaments' as in 'tournament proper' ie mounted armoured team combat with clubs, blunt swords and/ or lances was also a 'sport' by most historians metrics, but again really not like what we think of a 'sport' today. I suppose the shooting sports were as close to a modern competition as it got in that period. (crossbows and guns primarily, though longbows in England) In particular the 'winning' part is a really weird thing in many medieval activities, in that participation is a main thing, and the winner is often very arbitrary. the rules are often thrown out of the window to determine the winner. Some treatises specifically mention the distinction between fencing for recreational purposes and for earnest. (jeu de la hache is very clear on this) Again foot combat in armour for fun was done, but not in any way like a modern sport. For instance every bout was often a different set of rules that the fighters just liked. there is multiple examples of this, like the joust at smithfield (also involving a challenge on foot with pollaxes) where Anton cômpte de la Roche was accompanied by the squire to his brother (Cômpte de Charolais, later Charles the Bold), we still have the challenge outlineing the rules for the combat, and these two challenges are distinct in their rulesets.

[@E1337N3SS]

I didnt actually realize you were a smaller channel than Skall until just now. I had assumed it was a similar sized thing. You're incredibly educational and entertaining, and I find it weird that you haven't exploded at some point.

[@WozWozEre]

He's too reserved and educational, he lacks the wacky crap that draws in the truly huge crowds, and thank god he doesn't.

[@algomez8563]

Thanks to your comment I have just subscribe.

[@LuxisAlukard]

Skall, Shad, Lindy, Metatron, Tod, all channels bigger than Matts. Which is sad, because he is the most competent in HEMA

[@algomez8563]

@@LuxisAlukard Mr. Easton looks (emphasis in looks, before someone takes me out of context) more competent as a fencer in general.

[@LuxisAlukard]

@@DrTheRich I know that and I agree. But still, I believe my point stands

[@tamlandipper29]

We had this argument in university sports. Access to the sport should be open. But aspiring to excellence on a rigid - also technically open - standard is literally the point of organised sport.

[@zzodysseuszz]

Yes but elitism is the belief that only the latter should be allowed to enter the sport, believing themselves superior in the sport and demanding only those who fit their standard to be allowed to to join the sport Edit: hema is not an organised sport. It never was. It’s an art form which is built on interpretation of scriptures. Just bc hema is used in a sport does not mean it is a sport. and treating your standards as superior in a sport where your standards are one of dozens of other functioning ones is invalid and elitist as well. Just bc you are really good at a sport as well is not elite. None of you know what an elite is.

[@tamlandipper29]

@@zzodysseuszz Not disagreeing, but I'm of the opinion that many people think insisting on rigid standards is not letting people in. If that not clear I mean it's as important to insist on correct technique and training as it is to insist on physical equipment being up to code.

[@zzodysseuszz]

@@tamlandipper29 that’s not what people are claiming elitism is though. Skal even specifies this in his own video. When people gatekeep communities based on a superficial standard while thinking they are the superior; the elite

[@alexmag342]

@@zzodysseuszz by aspiring for excellence they are superior than the average and subpar, that's a fact, the allowing or not allowing is debatable and depends on context, while gatekeeping and elitism are not only extremely good as a whole but morally right and virtous. Saying you do HEMA and use it an attempt to shut down others but you are barely able to do anything and don't really strive for excellence, than it is not elitism. It's just participation trophy losers coping and abusing arguments from authority(in this case the fallacy applies, since an argument from authority is not a fallacy unless it is uthered by someone who know nothing of what he claims authority of).

[@hojosconsal9913]

@@alexmag342 gatekeeping and elitism are extremely good and morally right and virtuous lmao

[@stephend50]

as a physician, everything you said about Bulshido could be transposed to medicine

[@TrueMentorGuidingMoonlight]

I hold no qualms against making fun of fake medicine, homeopathy, and pseudoscientific practices, because those are dangerous and people actually die from using those.

[@TheSpacePirat]

@@TrueMentorGuidingMoonlight More people are dying from registered pharmaceutical medicine than any homöopathic medice could cause. Bad alternative medicine is a thing but bad conventional medicine is a thing too.

[@TrueMentorGuidingMoonlight]

@@TheSpacePirat More people how? Who? May I please see a source to back that up? I would still agree with the principle you propose, though. I have heard a lot about prescription drug abuse and “doctor shopping”. But that seems like a problem on the patient side than the doctor side. At least doctors generally know what they’re talking about, which lessens the risk; fake doctors have no idea what they’re talking about, which is an even greater risk.

[@goldenageofdinosaurs7192]

@@TheSpacePirat More people are dying? Can I see anything to back that up? Anything at all?? Remember, you don’t just get to say something & it’s true. Stop making things up to suit your bullshit narrative.

[@TheSpacePirat]

@@goldenageofdinosaurs7192 ethics.harvard.edu/blog/new-prescription-drugs-major-health-risk-few-offsetting-advantages

[@Ezyasnos]

I want to start a dojo specializing in Bullshido. And everybody will lack discipline, and there will be pirouettes like no tomorrow!

[@Ezyasnos]

@@F1ghteR41 But I will claim to have researched my 80s pop culture b-movie resources thoroughly!

[@Ezyasnos]

@@F1ghteR41 I will claim I did, and that I am an avid master of Gymkata

[@AnotherDuck]

@@Ezyasnos Are you going to require people to wear 80s-style gym wear? Tights, legwarmers, etc, all in bright colours?

[@MaeveHarrison-161]

@@Ezyasnos Obviously you'll have to make them carefully study the source material and copy it exactly.

[@philhughes3882]

Eyso - The Mullet could be the Mark of sensei, - gained only after a lifetime of gruelling study, ( i.e. three weeks and watching a few films). The Black Mullet being the ultimate achievement.

[@Ottuln]

I've done a bunch of different martial arts. The only time I found a place where elitism and local bias didn't come into it was in an Jiu Jitsu heavy MMA studio over a decade ago. Everyone there thought what we were doing was a great route, but helping people prep for fights was always the same, they had a healthy respect for whatever style their opponent practiced, broke it down with an eye to strengths and weaknesses, and were always slightly worried that the other guy's art/style had something they had missed that was going to catch them out. HEMA's biggest problem in my mind has always been a lack of focus. Is it history, is it a martial art, is it about winning bouts, every practitioner seems to have a different idea of how to split focus among those, and other topics.

[@hantms]

The First Rule of Condescending Club is really quite complex and I don't think you'd understand even if I explained it to you. ;)

[@Manchildalorian]

Best comment.

[@Scuzzlebutt142]

Nice :)

[@teotlyao]

Hahahaha, I think he explains clearly what HEMA is.

[@stefanfranke5651]

@@teotlyao Haha, I think, you should watch the video!!

[@jankarieben1071]

Check it out Matt, it’s one of those people you described in the beginning of the video!

[@silvershogun01]

I must admit to being hesitant to comment. For although I come from an ethnic minority and have been welcomed with open arms, as Matt said the community as a whole is very welcoming to all people, I have observed what I term ‘elitism’ and gate-keeping in HEMA. This elitism is not directed at people but rather what is taught and HOW things are taught. To be clear this is not ALL people who study HEMA but a vocal subset that hold very strong “purist” views on what is and isn’t HEMA. For instance; should an instructor, who has received tuition in both Italian and German longsword (and loves both styles), teach primarily Italian longsword but then throw in on occasion moves like the zwerchhau, HEMA purists/elitists would say that that is not HEMA. As there are no Italian longsword sources that include the Zwerchhau. Never mind the reality that what was taught was indeed taken directly from historical sources, because it is not from the same manual what that instructor is teaching can’t be labelled as HEMA. I have also directly observed almost toxic discussions in regards to the inclusion of additions to swordsmanship syllabuses such as the addition of punching. Let alone broader movements such as dodging, bobbing or weaving that an instructor may have learned from boxing being taught for use with say rapier or longsword. Regardless of the fact that the simple addition of bobbing or weaving drastically improves a swordsman’s survivability and combat ability, because there are no known sources depicting or describing such movements with such weapons should an instructor attempt to teach such movements as part of the syllabus then they are likely to be met by HEMA purists (elitists) decrying it as “not HEMA”. Then there is the continual discussions on training equipment. Every ah big from decrying the use of feders (when the only real difference between a feder and blunt practice blades is the presence of a schilt) to footwear and whether the footwear is historical. HEMA purists will argue vehemently that if you study Italian longsword it is wrong to use a feder. There are also questions regarding training methods. Recently a post on UK HEMA asked a question on the whether training should be done in a historical fashion. Now the comments section had some very enlightening points on why it is all but impossible to train in a historical manner due to us NOT knowing how training was taught. After all we only have instruction on what the techniques themselves are, not how they were taught to students. But the poll showed that most of the people replied with a yes. Now does this then mean a swordsmanship club can’t include fitness and things like HIIT or circuits during class? (And when I say during class, I mean something like half an hour of fitness work, half an hour of drills and half an hour of sparring or something along those lines). Completely regardless of the fact that swordsmanship, being a physically demanding activity, benefiting greatly from practitioners increasing their base levels of fitness as no manuals that I am aware of depict such training. My final point lies with something that is a tad fuzzy. And that is performing techniques/movements that are taken directly from historical manuals but are used with completely different weapons. Examples that leap out at me are: lunging with longswords (lunging being a type of footwork that is recognised as first being a distinct movement in later rapier schools, bolognese fencing I believe), with no manuals on longsword covering lunges directly as far as I am aware. Or doing such actions as Botta Di Croce, Passata Soto and Sbasso with a longsword. Again these movements are depicted as being done with rapiers or thrusting swords, and I do not believe that there are any manuals that teach using them with longswords, however the movements themselves are historical and fundamentally applicable in certain situations with the only alteration that needs to be done with the longsword being to take a hand off of the grip. Which can be done, a longsword can be held with one hand comfortably for a brief moment and held stable. In fact a hand-and-half sword should be able to perform certain movements whilst being wielded with only one hand. Mechanically there isn’t a reason why the movements wouldn’t work and should you train to do them you can do them during sparring and competitions to great effect, so long as you get your timing and distance right (but that applies with the native weapon of the rapier as well). HEMA purists (read elitists) would look at an instructor teaching such actions as a lunatic. Even if the instructor has successfully performed those very movements multiple times with both weapons during sparring and competitions. For no other reason than that there are no sources that depict the longsword performing those movements. For me, when I think of HEMA elitists and HEMA gatekeeping, I think not of people preventing others from walking into clubs simply for having an interest in other styles, or coming from different backgrounds but rather deeper and more malicious actions. To me HEMA elitism is the denial that the movements or actions in the treatises/manuals can be applied in any way other than what is there. The outright dogmatic view that what is recorded, and ONLY what is recorded, is applicable or usable as it is depicted. HEMA elitism is the refusal to acknowledge the Martial Arts part of Historical European Martial Arts purely in favour of the first word, Historical. Given how I have observed at least some, if not all, of what I have set out above I feel that it is actually dangerous to not face it and call it out. For otherwise it shall just continue and perpetuate. What I have described above does not involve anything dangerous or misleading as teaching moves or actions that don’t work, or teaching things that have not themselves been taught in a martial setting. The only point upon which people argue against them is that “they do not appear in the (geographical) manuals (for that weapon)”. Please note I had to add words in brackets for the supposed logic to make sense, as in fact the sword moves DO appear in the historical manuals. Regardless thank you @scholagladiatoria (Matt Easton) for a great and thought provoking video.

[@exander3636]

I've found that many martial artists allow pride to affect their view of their art. They adopt an attitude of superiority over people who practice other disciples, and start believing that their way is the only way. HEMA is, unfortunately, no exception. Still love it, though.🙂

[@scholagladiatoria]

Yes, I have certainly seen the same in every martial art I have been involved with, and to some extent certain sports as well. I guess you could call it snobbery in many cases and it is certainly not unique, or even particularly noteworthy, in HEMA (as far as I have seen).

[@BernasLL]

It's the same about any "club" a human enters (sports, religion, politics, ethnicity, culture...). By bolstering the group we're bolstering ourselves as members of that group, even if we don't realize that's why there's such a strong instinct pushing us to do it. It was once about survival. Now, it's more often than not unreasonable tribalism. It can still be useful however, if you're being earnest, respectful, intelligent and empathetic whilst criticizing other groups, and accept feedback.

[@bishopsteiner7134]

I've found a lot of traditional Martial Artists doubling down on the arrogance and BS in the years since MMA became a big thing, after pretty much every "Trad" form was proven to be a big waste of time in an actual fight against people not obeying the same rules as you. Pretty hilarious that the "inelegant" styles like wrestling, boxing and Muy Thai have the most relevance IRL.. but I digress....

[@MizanQistina]

First, it is human nature, sense of belonging, martial art today are clubs/organizations, when we join in we feel belong into the group, and when we rise in rank we have the sense of loyalty. Secondly, I can speak for Asian generally because of being one, it is not just the martial art, it is national as well cultural pride, it is the only thing from Asia that can penetrate into the West to the core, it is something to be proud of. Historically, Asian lost to the West, the colonialism, so when Asian martial art are popular in the West, it is an achievement. In context of Asia itself, historically, there are wars and conflicts between us, so martial art of certain nationality somewhat represent the nation, so you will hear about which are superior, who stealing who and such thing between martial art schools here in Asia. But this sentiment slowly diminished in Asia, ironically sparked in the West through MMA, but it is not a matter of culture, about practicality instead. The West didn't view Asian martial arts the same way as Asian do. But still, there is some nationalism vibes behind it as well, the West now is searching for something to hold on, to be proud of, MMA is a western product. HEMA coming out of nowhere with the help of the internet, otherwise I wouldn't know about it at all. So I can see that it is like what I am saying, the West now is trying to revive the lost identity, so it will follow the same process happened in Asian martial arts.

[@dominic6634]

@@bishopsteiner7134 I don't know Ameri-do-te is incredible effective i would totally recommend Master Kens system.

[@Isambardify]

Is it the kit requirements that cause the reputation? Swords are expensive, practice swords are expensive, safety gear is expensive... I do rowing which also has an elitist reputation even though hardly anyone I know owns their own boat, and being part of a club costs less than a gym membership.

[@KevinTangYT]

This is a contributor I feel. Luckily there are some decent foam simulators out there now that can ease the entry barrier, but it's still like two hundred bucks to drop on a hobby for helmet and weapon, as opposed to say LARP.

[@scratchy996]

I've done mountain biking for 20 years. Some people just want to ride, while others just want to parade in their high end gear, and complain about the trails and other riders. I think every activity involving humans has its share of elitists.

[@sillyquiet]

@@scratchy996 Oh god yes, you find this in any pursuit from bicycling to woodworking. Was watching a video from Engel's Coachshop in which people accused the man of not being a real wood worker because he was using a rasp and not a plane for some work. And this man has been making beautiful and precise historical buggies and wagons for 40 years.

[@kidthorazine]

@@scratchy996 The difference here is that even entry level equipment is pretty damn expensive, especially since there aren't many places with clubs that have loaner gear on hand.

[@stefanfranke5651]

You're right, It's defenitely a factor and HEMA is a costly hobby, more so as i.e. football (soccer in us) but there are much more expensive sports as well. My club provides plastic simulators for easy start but encourages it's students to buy a mask and a steel practice sword in the first couple of months. That's like 350€ for start but even with a small income it's affordable after some month of scraping. And most of us train like this for years without wanting to compete in the tournaments. I hope clubs out there don't make this issue into a entering barrier a.k.a. "You first need this, this and that to belong to our fancy club". And to be honest, fencing gear is nothing you can boast with because after some seasons your stylish fencing jacket is a grimy, ragged piece of junk and your shiny feder sword is a piece of scrap metal.

[@robertstuckey6407]

I think the fact that HEMA is part amateur experimental archeology is really cool

[@a.m.blackfig638]

That's a really good point/perspective

[@enginnonidentifie]

Agreed. The blend of historical research paired with athletic/martial activity is really what defines HEMA as distinct versus other, looser reconstructions, like many reenactment “styles” or SCA practices (though some sca folks are very serious). And that rigor, especially with serious hema practitioners and researchers, is part of the appeal I think - at least it is for me!

[@ZemplinTemplar]

Well put.

[@zakpodo]

People say gatekeeping like it's necessarily bad. In fact it is required im some degree for anything to have an identity or meaning at all. Discrimination based on immutable characteristics is something entirely different, but it's not wrong to say - "This is a voluntary organization, we do 'x', we represent 'y' and we expect 'z' . Things don't have to appeal to everybody- if we accept that we're all individuals with differences then trying to appeal to everybody is really appealing to nobody. Having a definition of what your "thing" is, isn't the same as looking down or judging anybody elses. By and large though, I'd say the "elitism" thing is a human problem, not a HEMA problem. You find it anywhere, especially from people around the first peak on the dunning-kruger distribution.

[@Robert399]

There's nothing wrong with having definitions or standard practices/rules just so everyone is on the same page. Obviously any competitive sport has to do this. So it's fine to say X is not HEMA. It gets shitty when it's paired with the _implication_ that X is therefore inferior to HEMA and so are the people who do it. It's like a club footballer saying (or thinking), "bah, look at these plebs kicking footballs around in their backyards, how dare they? This is a mockery of the fine art of football!"

[@zakpodo]

@@Robert399 absolutely agree- it should come with the understanding thatt if you have your reasons for your thing then others get to have theirs for their thing. And theirs are just as valid.

[@willek1335]

I was chatting with Skall a while back about Holmgang Hamburg. You can find the comments under his Holmgang video. I've never seen someone act as elitist in HEMA before. There was seemingly no redemptive quality in what the people of Holmgang Hamburg were doing, according to him. He had such an apparent aversion to danger and aggression in Historical European *Martial* Arts. Eventhough I partially disagreed with his position on HH, I prefer that genuine prejudice and elitism. I'm not sure why.

[@zakpodo]

@@willek1335 So. You prefer something that emphasizes the practical and physical parts. That mean another person, or group, whose interests are more academic or risk averse aren't worthy interests, right. They're just something else.

[@Valdyr_Hrafn]

I feel like elitism is more than just reinforcing a label. When something truly becomes elitist (in my interpretation of that word) is when there's an attitude with it that looks to downplay and degrade everything outside whatever this elitist person is part of. it's not elitist to be aware of labels like HEMA, it is elitist to disregard and exclude stuff just because it doesn't have a lot in common with HEMA.

[@VeryHappyAmmo]

Elitsm or not, I wish there was a HEMA group around here!

[@CFJNOLA]

Where yat?

[@Overdrawn_]

Never too late to start your own.

[@The_Gallowglass]

Make one.

[@OnyxXThePunch]

Start one.

[@johnetherington7799]

We had one near ish to me. They were very full of themselves and the attitude they projected sapped any interest I had in them. Not surprising, thier group has since withered and died

[@andriesbrouwersurf]

I have actually witnessed elitism in the context of HEMA. One HEMA school member consistently badmouthing another school for how they interpret HEMA texts and fight has been my experience of elitism. Can we have a video on cult behaviour and dojoitis too please ?

[@jgappy5643]

That's something that happens in every martial art. Unfortunately its something some people need to do to feel better. But its defenitely not only HEMA specific thing.

[@krzysztofmathews738]

How dare you be so clear and level headed when the internet is desperately looking for things to pick fights over? Seriously though, a great response to Skallagrim there. Well said.

[@Military-gradenutella3068]

I’m not a HEMA practitioner, but I’ve been a fantasy/sci-fi fan for over 30 years. Wherever there is a fanbase, a portion will consist of neckbeards, furries, weeboos, self-declared-genius Rick Sanchez wannabes, etc. Just because you’re a dedicated fan, that doesn’t give you ownership of the thing you like. A foam sword, the Song of Ice and Fire dvd collection, and a desire to be a warrior equal to Jaime Lannister won’t make you a HEMA practitioner without the scholarship. If you want to participate in HEMA, do it. Don’t try to redefine what HEMA is and accuse anyone that doesn’t agree with you to be elitist.

[@briani8785]

Yeah I’m sure some people are toxic to a small degree out there about anything. But yeah I haven’t met anyone where I go that I thought was elitist. But yeah I am no HEMA practitioner, and just started reading some manuscripts (and know little so far). So when I go to the clubs I visit, people seem to be knowledgeable so I mostly go to listen to others due to being a noob. But people aren’t always used to opinionated debates.

[@0MJF0]

I have noticed that there is an increase in people who seem to think ALL gatekeeping is bad. That is not the case, since licenses, titles, and degrees are necessary to ensure the individual is trained and knowledgeable enough to do what their license permits them to. Yes, requiring a MD or PhD to practice medicine can be construed as gatekeeping, but it is a necessary form of gatekeeping. You don't want someone operating on you who didn't go through medical school now would you? What if we just allowed anyone to fly a plane? If one would wreath themselves with laurels they didn't earn, it is important that others call them out on it. Especially in disciplines where these false experts can harm others. Don't gatekeep people that want to get into a discipline, but gatekeep the titles, licenses and permits behind experience and knowledge.

[@TonberryV]

Honestly, it kinda sounds like HEMA is becoming a generalized term for WMA, much the same way that "karate" became the cultural name for martial arts that weren't kung fu here in the states. Is it fair? Nope. Is it even remotely correct? Nope. How someone chooses to correct that perception colors it's image, though.

[@drichard6740]

Ive sadly found this to be the case. Had a local group that basically unwelcomed me as a new swordsman because 'i took away from their practice time.' Not to mention trying to talk to a meyers specialist about fiore...not even to say one is better, just that I had interest in fiore.

[@Overdrawn_]

18 minutes of Matt talking about Shad's "hema" without saying it outright.

[@favkisnexerade]

Meanwhile dozens of historical systems without manuals are not hema apparently.

[@ivanharlokin]

@@favkisnexerade No, they aren't. If a system has a living lieneage, it's not historical its contemporary. If a system lacks both manuals and a living lineage, then it's just somebody making shit up. Out of curiosity, what systems did you have in mind?

[@lorenzobraschi2010]

@@favkisnexerade I don't think that's the point, and sure, your historical system needs some kind of historical connection to the past, to be, well, historical. Manuals are obviously the most common source, but living tradition is another. HEMA needs manuals because there's no living tradition. Without manuals and without a living tradition it's hard to call something "historical".

[@Majiger]

@@favkisnexerade Are you going to bother with any examples or just leave a vague statement?

[@favkisnexerade]

@@ivanharlokin something like polish saber? Viking times sword and shield, spears. Maybe roman gladius or pilum fighting. I dont know, europe is huge and history is thoughsands of years old. So if somebody reinvents how to fight with, let's say, a billhook, and thats how for example 14 centuary italians fought, it wont be hema, even thought it might be just 1 to 1 system.

[@salavat294]

There is an old saying: “ Every frog sings the praises of its own lily pad.” There is an elitist in every martial art. Whether, it is the attitude that their martial art system is best, then it is that the particular taught “style” of said martial art is better than the rest, then it is the instructors and club is the best. It seems that human beings have always had, and will always have, a natural proclivity towards tribalism. “Our nation is best. Our tribe is best. Our clan is best. Our family is best.” Whether, it is good or bad is irrelevant. It is just the way it is, human nature. The trick is to recognize it, and not to allow it to put “ideological blinders” on you.

[@svensorensen7693]

"Bullshido" What a fantastic word. I've never heard it before, yet I know *exactly* what it means.

[@rimanLip]

Try type in into youtube search you won't regret.

[@harjutapa]

"being a KZbinr myself, of much less magnitude than Skall" I know you're referring to sub count, which seems the end-all be-all for "ranking" KZbinrs, but I quite honestly think you put out higher quality content than Skall. Skall has a greater breadth (which largely explains his higher sub count), but he's definitely not as careful in his research and fact checking as you are in the areas y'all share.

[@wattlebough]

It's because he has an academic approach to the subject matter, and while Skall is entertaining, an academic he's not. Hence just by virtue of Matt's educated approach he might not hold the same appeal to 'the masses".

[@Shamshiro]

In all the months I've interacted with HEMA enthusiasts, I could easily discern their true colours by talking about katanas in anything but negative light.

[@stefanfranke5651]

Because, face it, spears and glaives are vastly superior to katanas!! (like yari and naginatas as well, ""owo )

[@Shamshiro]

@@stefanfranke5651 - Nein, sticks are the WMDs of melee weapons.

[@garrettvelkjar3136]

@@Shamshiro But is pointy stick better than blunt stick?

[@yawningangel8181]

I'm a HEMA dude and I'm reading Miyamoto Musashi and dual-wielding! Did you know one of the main HEMA sword producers - SIGI - make sparring katanas for doing gekiken? Some members of my old club go and train at 7am with katanas in their HEMA club :) Musashi actually says loads of stuff that Liechtenauer said regarding duels, plus a lot more interesting tips. We are by no means down on katanas! ;D

[@TrueMentorGuidingMoonlight]

I prefer the nagamaki. It’s like a katana, but it’s a hybrid polearm sword thing! I like having extra range.

[@stephenede-borrett1452]

Matt, that was absolutely excellent - well argued and well presented, although that is what we have come to expect from you. Quality!

[@The_Gallowglass]

Any time you have a club, there will form a crust and that crust is usually elitist.

[@Mara999]

I've thought a bit about trying Hema, at least reading up on historical sources. My knees won't allow me to take up any sort of training full-time, but I would like to try learning the basics of shield-wall combat, for re-enactment purposes.

[@grailknight6794]

Alternate title : Matt Easton flexing on us mortals 🤣

[@dvictorbrown]

Much appreciated video! Any dedicated student/professional in any discipline should be protective against those who would seek to profit on the coat tails/reputation of those who are actually doing the heavy lifting. This isn't gate keeping. This is defending the honor of whatever discipline that is being discussed.

[@BarokaiRein]

Pretty much every community has some levels of this but it's nowhere near as bad as with archery community,my god that's an absolute shitshow.

[@miguelmendoza4513]

Agree. I learned that fact the hardway with bowhunters, target shooters and/ or traditional archers. I just keep an open- mind and be respectful.

[@mindsliver2245]

Hello Matt, a few points of contention if I may. All in good fun of course, I LOVE your channel! I saw Skal's video the other day and I must say it didn't seem to me that he was saying that HEMA folks were annoyed about others CALLING what they do "HEMA". It seemed more that they were dismissive about the validity of anything that was NOT HEMA. In that context I can say that I have had some experience. I'm a member of the SCA (Society for Creative Anachronisms) a recreationist organization that seeks historical understanding in many different disciplines including costuming, cooking, culture, dance, art and... swordsmanship. As a society we don't have prescribed courses and we don't have a specific curriculum for teaching or learning swordsmanship and because of that some of our branches do end up just "making shit up". Usually because we have a branch in an area that simply doesn't have anyone with training in, for want of a better term, historical European martial arts. That said, many if not most branches in the SCA will have leaders and members that have studied primary sources with great intensity for years and pass along that knowledge. Branches that don't have an instructor generally get crushed in competition and individuals will often become "cadets" or students of more knowledgeable fighters from other branches and even travel to learn from them. I should note that when I say this, I'm referring to SCA "light" combat or unarmored and our alternate "cut and thrust" rule sets which both use accurate weapon analogues made of steel and not the more famous (and generally derided) rattan "swords" used in the SCA "Heavy" or Armored combat. Anyways, I've been studying and competing in this organization for over a decade now and when a HEMA club opened in a neighboring town I was very interested. One of my students who was studying rapier and longsword with me went to this HEMA school to check it out. The staff of the school asked him if and where he had trained in the past, he mentioned the SCA and was told flat out that the SCA is a joke and that he should be studying HEMA if he wanted to learn swordsmanship. I don't hold that against them, I'm sure they met a few low skill SCA members that tainted their view of the organization. Fair enough. But when Skal mentioned the elitism that can happen in HEMA, this event immediately sprang to mind. I'd also like to point out that HEMA, as understood by HEMA organization members is an extremely confined activity with a definition. However, the term "Historical European Martial Arts" is an incredibly good way to describe a broad swath of activities. One who is NOT a member of a HEMA club is still likely to have heard the words and may inadvertently start to use them as a descriptive term for their own efforts to understand historical swordsmanship. Most likely they won't even realize that the folks who coined the term had an extremely exclusive definition for their extremely inclusive and conveniently descriptive name. Rant over! Keep calling out the bullshido though, it needs to go.

[@qwerfa]

I have to kind of disagree with Matt here. First because I don't think the historicity of a source is a proof of quality/safety. Bad instructors can interpret historical sources in dangerous ways just as well as good martial artists could devise a longsword system in a safe way. Secondly, there is a problem, I think, with the sport right now. I would love to see Hema as a sport grow more, and I don't believe that discriminating between Longsword fencing, for instance, and longsword centric HEMA is a good way to bring new people in. Moreover, I think that HEMA as any martial arts practiced with historical european weapons is just as valid a definition. To bring back the comparison with FIE fencing, If I'm in a fencing tournament, and win by doing complete nonsense with my foil, and going against every teaching, every form used in the sport, etc.; if I score the most points, and don't break any of the rules, I still win. It doesn't matter that my style goes against every established fencing tradition. So I think that for the visibility of the sport, "enlarging" the definition to refer to historical weapons, rather than specific historical traditions for those weapons could be more beneficial. Clubs can still advertise that they teach historical sources, and as long as people aren't lying about where their system comes from, and as long as they don't teach unsafe practices, I don't think there's a real negative to that. And yes, this would absolutely be a case for the community maintaining some form of gatekeeping. But, gatekeeping doesn't equal elitism. They can go hand in hand, but they aren't indissociable, and not all gatekeeping is bad. Anyway. Those we my two cents

[@ummonk]

Just call it historical weapon sport.

[@raymondfoster9326]

@@ummonk ‘weapon sport’ IS martial arts... So it would still be called HEMA... 🤦🏼

[@ummonk]

@@raymondfoster9326 Nope. It's sport using historical weapons but without studying historical martial arts.

[@raymondfoster9326]

@@ummonk bruh... Sports with weapons or hand to hand combat is literally called martial arts... That’s LITERALLY what martial arts means...

[@sabelfechter7136]

@@raymondfoster9326 Nah we have proof of Longsword sport fencing like 500year ago. Also theres a difference between definition and what a term is commenly used or accociated with.

[@mrejk35]

Nobody brings context to a topic like Matt. This is one of the videos where I watch and I'm like..... Wow spot on again man.

[@muhammadujaama631]

Matt sets the bar.

[@jorenbosmans8065]

The only attitude that I encounter in HEMA videos which I would consider maybe elitist (although I am not sure if it is the correct term) is their use of historical treaties to judge a technique as usefull or ever existing. Some channels dismiss things as nonsense just because we don't have a written European source claiming that it was used. This is a kind of narrowminded way of approaching a technique

[@jorenbosmans8065]

@@ichisichify I would disagree. Matt is Often still open-minded about techniques which he can't find in treaties and tries to look if it was possible that it was used. It is one of the reasons I like him. This is not to say that the styles that he Teaches aren't purely from treaties (he actually argued that HEMA is purely based on treaties). He is just able to discuss possibilities.

[@sphtpfhorbrains3592]

Hi Matt Easton, This discussion of elitism has reminded me to think about German fencing societies from the 19th century. It would be a great pleasure if you could do a breakdown of that type of "HEMA".

[@collegeoffoliage6776]

The "HEMA has to be based on historical sources" conversation is an interesting one, given that it's also become a competitive sport. If I've never taken a HEMA class in my life, but I practice sparring under the common ruleset and participate in HEMA tournaments, am I then doing HEMA? If not, then what am I doing?

[@yawningangel8181]

It's a good question and a running joke :D Crappy pseudo-sport fencing? People can even win by fencing in a horrible style to watch, but; it's horrible to watch. It is also a good test to see if you can adapt to somebody else's style so we can't complain too much as it's a good challenge. It is much more enjoyable to watch and fence opponents who are diverse and technical.

[@collegeoffoliage6776]

@@yawningangel8181 indeed. Always going for hand-sniping and focusing more on getting doubles and after blows than actual defence does not for a fun match make, but can work pretty well 😅 Anyways, I guess this demonstrates the need for a new term for the sport that has grown out of HEMA.

[@yawningangel8181]

@@collegeoffoliage6776 True :) In class we are very much doing HEMA from historical sources as the core but I do throw in some olympic-inspired stuff. In competitions I think we are aware we are doing a modern hybrid of recreating duels with sharps and recreating historical sport fencing with modern equipment. It will be influenced by modern sport fencing somewhat. We just call it longsword or rapier and leave it at that lol

[@timothychristensen3912]

A term That could be used is Western Martial Art (WMA). You use historical sources as a start, but then are more free to modify and combine to improve your fighting.

[@yawningangel8181]

@@timothychristensen3912 sure, I think that term covers it nicely too. In all martial arts though you learn a system, but in free fighting anything goes really so we can't be too purist. I'm pretty sure in a judicial duel it's most important to strike someone first rather than do Liechtenauer :D so anything goes in competitions really, although we should aim to be technical and martial imho

[@iratevagabond204]

I fancy myself a classical libertarian outwardly, and very conservative personally. The latter being how I lead my personal life and the former being how I vote and interact with others. With that said, I find inclusiveness good, as I'd never want to deny people their right to choose what they want. However, I also feel like it's kind of devastating to other cultures when no effort is put into keeping those cultures alive. It's also devastating to the predominant western culture when so much effort is put into altering or breaking it down. I'm American, and proud to be. I love western culture and appreciate the development of it by Europeans and Abrahamic religion. At the same time, my grandparents are immigrants from Mexico; my grandfather being spanish speaking and my grandmother being indigenous Nahuatl speaking. I love the culture of my grandparents and how it integrated into American culture. I also have practiced HEMA for a short period, before joining another group of ex-HEMA practitioners that attempt to build their own style and theory of sources and through trial and error. The point of all this is to say, I feel irresponsible practicing European combat styles versus attempting to explore and recreate the combat styles of my Mesoamerican ancestors. As I don't do it myself, I can't really criticize people for not attempting to recreate the combat styles of their non-European ancestors, I just think it'd be cool to see more of.

[@NevisYsbryd]

Yeah, I think a lot of the youtube (and general internet) discussion often ignores/is blind to that, for some people (and potentially a lot of them), the appeal of HEMA is, at least in part, about engaging with the practices and traditions of their race, ethnicity, and/or ancestry. I wager this is especially the case in America, where the culture is so disconnected from its past and culture other than a transient relationship with or understanding of a secular (and therefore profane) political institution (eg, the foundational narrative being about taxes and political system rather than racial or ethnic identity, religion, culture, etc.), and even moreso in this time when a considerable proportion of the society and mainstream discourse is explicitly hostile towards it. It extends beyond the martial arts side as well. For all of their complaining and 'coloredwashing' of European and American stories/characters, they put forward so little actually drawing on non-Western locales and cultures. They can just as well write high fantasy works drawing on West African or Native American myth and legend (and I argue, be objectively better and far more successful in any positive regard for it). As for ir/responsibility... I think it is important to make a distinction in engaging in such matters between whether one is practicing as a guest versus as a descendent or adopted. There is a large difference between engaging with the ethnic practices of which you are not a member with the presumption of entitlement to do so versus with respect that you are a guest and regarding the opportunity as a gift. Conversely, one might go so far as to become an honorary member (although you specifically sound to prefer maintaining your native group identity). Point being, I think it would be fine to engage in the European version/side of it from the ethnic involvement standpoint, so long as you treat it with the appropriate reverence (provided that you want to). Personally, I think a (larger) Mesoamerican martial arts scene would be wonderful.

[@iratevagabond204]

@@NevisYsbryd Valid points, I agree.

[@MarcRitzMD]

That is a strawman, Matt. No one complains about people calling something out on wrongly portraying HEMA. HEMA elitism is about snooty HEMA practitioners like portrayed by Skall in his opening video.

[@Wanderer_of_the_Steppes]

A city without its gates guarded ceases to be the city it once was. "Gatekeeping" is a necessary thing, and really is nothing more than what Matt is describing about ahistorical or non-European martial arts simply not actually being HEMA.

[@MaefigHistory]

Love that word Bullshido, never heard of it until now. Hilarious! Wonderful video as always!

[@Miggy19779]

Don't forget scamjutsu!!

[@commanderblargh6300]

Or shitalry.

[@nicolosgilbert5004]

I very much enjoy your channel. I've been watching the community of arms & armour (Skal, Metatron, lindy, schola, knyghterrant, etc) and you all continue to surprise me. Your passions of educating others and sharing your knowledge is admirable andI enjoy your time and experiences. Keep it up brother!

[@ellentheeducator]

I think an important point to make is that we often do conflate "Bullshido" with "not Hema". We have a habit of saying that that martial artist is not doing HEMA and that his martial art isn't skillful or safe, and focusing on the first part, rather than the second. Someone can develop effective and safe martial arts without the history, and someone can make Bullshido out of historical study. I think many of the feelings of elitism in the HEMA community come out of the fact that we don't really differentiate.

[@pluemas]

this very much. Modernising isnt inherently bad, and tradition methods arnt inherently good. At our club we include some modern techniques from judo and grappling, specifically around falling and controlling your opponent, despite it not being in the manuals. Why? Because its safer for everyone involved.

[@louisvictor3473]

@@pluemas I wouldn't be surprised if it wasn't in the manuals because the manuals is about not "fighting as a whole" systems. Very likely, the Europeans all had their own "jiu jitsu" equivalents too, it is just not what a manual on a specific weapon was about.

[@christianalbertjahns2577]

so there are some martial arts that's completely artificial but martially valid and effective and there are some bullshido martial arts that takes root from HEMA? Interesting (and not to say I disagree. I actually agree with the first part)

[@ellentheeducator]

@@christianalbertjahns2577 I am very confident about the first part - I also think that it's very possible to think you are interpreting the manuals, and end up in some silly places. Fortunately, HEMA has managed to avoid that, being so small, but it is something that we will face as we grow, and so our habit of conflating the Historical with Real will grow from a minor complaint to a major problem. It absolutely happens in Historical Asian Martial Arts, where the art really is historical, they take it from either writings or a direct lineage from history, and it's utterly useless and fake.

[@pluemas]

@@christianalbertjahns2577 yes, anyone who has seen someone attempt that rapier move where you put the sword behind your back as a parry know that some manuals teach bullshido haha

[@tapioperala3010]

Like I posted in Skalls video, we need gatekeeping, especially in this day and age. This being said, once again I 100 % agree with Matt here. It's just as it is. And again, some people take it way too far and seriously, but that's the same with all hobbies.

[@LarryGarfieldCrell]

I'm solidly with Matt on this. If you want to do X, fine, enjoy it. If you want to do X and call it Y, you're full of shit. It's not elitist to say that pickup basketball with your friends is not the same as professional basketball. A pickup game of ball is great. If you're playing with local "house rules" go make it more fun, cool, have fun. But saying you're playing NBA rules basketball while doing so... You're just wrong.

[@jonugalde1275]

My point. When destreza came popular there were plenty people who pretended to be masters of it as the same way we actually see plenty of HEMA "masters" these days. This situation didn't fix with the procedures they used that days (duels and so). So some masters started using the concept of "verdadera destreza" to highlight the situation they were living and their "status" in that situation. I think once any procedure becomes popular we (humans) reach the same situation anywhere and anytime. May we be at the point were we can start using the concept "true HEMA"? Maybe I think

[@intothehemaverse7941]

Yeah, I don't really see/hear anything controversial in either of the two videos. "Historical" is in the name, and a part of the identity. The interesting thing that I noted is that there are some fencers who found their school on independent systems (that is, sword-fighting systems that were not derived from historical manuals) that end up working very well, and end up winning major tournaments using them. Also, generally the system is a good one, and not at all Bullshido or Bullschwert. I think we need to be honest with ourselves and say "While this does very much resemble HEMA, it is something else." The only problem, I find, are those independently developed systems that end up being so similar to historical systems that they are indistinguishable. For that, I have no answer, because even though the means of getting to that system was not through history, the system is technically historical. I'm thinking of something specific, but honestly I don't know what label I would actually give it. Also, Puffy Pants are HEMA, fight me. -Collin

[@borislavkrustev8906]

The one top fencer that is not basing his system on historical sources (although he is not ignorant about them) is also very openly not doing HEMA. The issue is with people who claim you don't need sources to be doing HEMA.

[@scholagladiatoria]

One of the best swordsmen (for want of a better name) in the UK is a LARPer of sorts (Mark Gilbert) and he does not claim to do HEMA or try to do HEMA. He just turns up to a couple of HEMA events each year and kicks most people's asses (with pretty much any weapon). I have full respect for his skills and would never downtalk what he does - he does what he does, and he does it well. It's a challenge to fence him, and a pleasure. Luckily, he completely accepts that what he does is sword fighting, but isn't HEMA, and he doesn't claim it is. Everyone is cool with that and there is no elitism or any other 'ism' involved :-)

[@panhandlersparadise1733]

Quick question, sort-of off topic but somewhat related to this video. First, I live in an area where you're in the country if you turn left out of my driveway, in the suburbs if you turn right. A small city about 15 minutes away. We're not really known for having access to such specialized activities as you might find in larger cities, but we did have a fencing club open recently. They charge for private lessons and hold group lessons for free. That seems like a good sign, can you comment on that? Another, what I think is a good sign, is they are very clear about how they only teach foil, smallsword, and rapier. And they aren't going to hand you a smallsword or rapier until you show competence (emphasis on safety) with the foil. A third good sign was they seemed excited when I pointed out I'm a 50 year old man with an athletic background, interested in appropriate exercise for my age. I'm interested in fencing from both historic and fantasy perspectives. To me, based on personal experience with other things in life, and what I've seen in your videos, it seems and feels legit. Does any of that raise a red flag to you as a professional coach? If I lived in your area and approached you with the idea that I want a bit of casual exercise and knowledge about realistic fencing, how would you respond to my query?

[@KevinTangYT]

I think by and large, the HEMA community is pretty aware of its relative immaturity (in age and as a martial culture) compared to its Eastern counterparts. They will likely go through some of the pitfalls those communities have gone through too such as cliques, disagreement in fundamentals of techniques and concepts *cough cough Silver*, performing techniques with levels of non-cooperative, resisting opponents and why maybe what is taught can't personally or objectively be applied in actual combat. That said, most HEMA schools I've seen do a good job in balancing classes for the more casual once-a-week activity to do with club mates who are satisfied with the lessons themselves being the "sword play" without wanting to get better. I find it kind of odd that this point is contentious and that HEMA is "elitist" I suppose from the perspective of Eastern martial arts where there's an expectation of progression, not because of trying to get the next belt level, but the entire point of martial arts, fighting aside, is to strive for self-improvement. Most instructors and clubs won't push for that because, like Matt said in this video, the casual audience is the majority and each person has their own level of how serious they wish to pursue this activity.

[@inthedenoftigers5702]

I think there are three competing streams in HEMA culture: One is the academic Treatise/Source part of HEMA which toils away at disseminating and translating older sources of European martial traditions that no longer have an extant lineage. Another is the pressure testing/tournament side that seek to explore the martial and physical aspect of recreated older weapons. These two are often at each other throats for competing for the existential 'purpose' of HEMA. But both weather they like it or not have their experts/champions that stand as 'authorities'. Perhaps not as a Hierarchy like in other combat sport organisations, but leading ships of a flotilla: Where they sail according to the wind, the rest follow. But there is a third strand which in many ways have nothing to do with with the first two, and is a product of HEMA's counterculture aesthetic born of the 'we are not sport fencing/LARP/SCA': Anti Hierarchical Participatory Culture Born Of Social Media. AHPCBOSM is a total mouthful (but until someone comes with a better acronym we will use it for the time being. Answers in the thread for suggestions) AHPCBOSM is kind of the go to default mode in the modern age when like minded individuals want to participate in what they perceive as a community or a movement, with the prime motive as enthusiasm, transmitted and organised by social media, which if you want to start your own study group is a sort of a necessity if there isn't a structure of an existing organisation to guide you through the steps. In HEMA this is exacerbated by the physical barriers of protective equipment and weapon simulators, which initially are financially prohibitive (which probably is the real 'elitist' problem) and leads to by default to different training methodologies. But there's more: because there are only 'Primus Inter Pares' individuals in AHPCBOSM, none of them have to really answer to anyone else. With hundreds of treatise stretching from the 13th century right up until the 19th, its really hard to begin to gate-keep what are interpretations unless someone like Matt who is a luminary in one of the first two communities has the knowledge to call them out. But people like Matt are few and far between, unless they morph into HEMA witchhunters scouring the land Malleus Bullshitorum in hand against suspected heretics. AHPCBOSM isn't juts a phenomenon found in HEMA. Star Wars is the best example. The Fandom of influences the expectations of the Canon universe, and then self appointed enthusiasts of AHPCBOSM begin blaming the creators and people involved in both the theoretical side and the practical creation of 'gate-keeping' their views and disparaging the views as toxic fandom, while they promulgate the 'metropolitan elitist' ideals on the canon universe, not understanding the Star Wars belongs not to them but to the creators or by extension 'The Mouse'. Disney needs and encourages AHPCBOSM, but also needs to keep a tight control on what star wars is about. I'm not entirely sure how this can be fixed: on the one hand the growth of HEMA is very much due to AHPCBOSM, allowing to broaden its reach and format to accommodate what is a very broad church of differing interests. On the other hand AHPCBOSM make it really hard to maintain any quality or even *definition* control.

[@stefanfranke5651]

Perhaps Social Media Induced Participatory Egalitarian Movement: SMIPEM? Nevertheless, interesting thought! As I understand it, HEMA, initially as a "movement" of likeminded nerds scattered over vast distances, relied heavily on forms of social media from the start: be it written letters, message boards, forums and finally all the well known go to platforms of today. enough time to let play out some good and not so good group dynamics.

[@inthedenoftigers5702]

@@stefanfranke5651 SMIPEM sounds better. AHPCBOSM sounds like Apache Bosom. It's not the medium that is a problem. In many ways social media allows outreach to communities that may not have even thought about HEMA before. HEMA seems to have a following in Korea now, despite no tangible cultural connection which just show the versatility of the movement. But what about Middle Eastern martial arts? If a Andalucian Moorish swordmanship manuscript from pre-reconquista spain turned up would you gate-keep against it if its roots were in middle east north Africa? Who exactly makes the decision to decide if its H*E*MA?

[@stefanfranke5651]

@@inthedenoftigers5702 Good question. I mean there are definitly practicioners of historical Indian martial arts (kzbin.info/www/bejne/pn23lImAfLJ1obM) and I believe to remember seeing practice based on old Arabic manuals (not sure). You had to summarise all those traditions under the umbrella of 'Historical Martial Arts', where HEMA itself would be just one branch among many others. Then those systems could compete eachother in demos or tournaments just like today Liechtenauer against Italian lineage. It would be great and exiting to learn about the commonalitys and differences of different fighting styles and apreciation for other cultures and heritage. But it would need a level of respect for each other, which is perhaps difficult to maintain these days but definitely worth aiming for.

[@NevisYsbryd]

I argue they are not so much anti-hierarchical as much anti- _formal_ hierarchy, as these groups tend to orbit around either self-appointed leader figures/voices, presumed authority figures, or those who happen to build up enough clout (an interesting inclusion of a form of Social Darwinism). It is more a matter of... anti-structural or formal hierarchy, or anti-borders/boundaries/exclusion. As for the solution-in a sense, there is not one, at least not a permanent one, as the only permanent solution would be to veer off to either end of the spectrum. Maintaining the structure and keeping it able to adapt to the desires of the fanbase while rejecting those desires and such that would be to its detriment (exclusion) can only be done on a case-by-case basis, thereby necessitating it constantly treat those two forces as a dialectic spectrum, with it only being able to flourish by maintaining homeostasis on a somewhat dynamic range along that spectrum. More to the point, the desires vary by individual group, making any sort of comprehensive solution impossible. Where each group wants to be open and to what is a fundamentally local matter. A few ideas towards a name: Social Media Unstructured Culture/Movement, SMUC/SMUM Unstructured Social Media Culture/Movment, USMC/USMM Informal Social Media Culture/Movement, ISMC/ISMM Social Media Informal Culture/Movement, SMIC/SMIM Borderless Social Media Culture/Movement, BSMC/BSMM Or what I would call it, Social Media Mob (SMM), as the characteristic behavior is essentially that of a (not 'the') mob, or perhaps Social Media (Informal/Unstructured) Gangs (as they especially tend to behave as such when they orbit around a central figure). The latter bears the wonderfully amusing acronym SMUG (or SMIG).

[@stefanfranke5651]

@@NevisYsbryd Fair point! :) I completly aggree with the first paragraph but you lost me a bit at the second at this time of day. I'm no anthropologist but there are certainly good arguments in it as well. Social media unstructured gang is my vavourite XD Interesting topic to study and I totally would buy your book!!

[@robc6391]

Like with every topic and community - HEMA isn't, some people are. Unfortunately

[@scholagladiatoria]

Yes, I don't deny that some people are elitist. I don't think HEMA has any bigger share of elitist people compared to the many other hobbies or sports I have been involved in though.

[@scholagladiatoria]

Modern HEMA is certainly not the preserve of the aristocracy and a large percentage of HEMA sources were not written by or for the aristocracy. Most of the sources I study were written by and for soldiers and/or fencers, who were mostly working or middle class. But this is irrelevant to the discussion of modern HEMA as a sport/martial art, as very few aristocrats are involved in it now.

[@robc6391]

@@scholagladiatoria Completely agree Matt. I think the reason for this feeling among some is that HEMA is a rather small community (in comparission to other fields) so it probably sticks out a lot more when people encounter it. Also great point about the difference between elitism and actual criticism (like your bullshido example :D). Like with everything context is important. Not every "but you have no idea what you are doing" comment means the person saying it is trying to be elitist. Bullshit is bullshit and should be called out.

[@TGPDrunknHick]

@@scholagladiatoria the problem is how niche it is. more publicity from people like yourself helps improve it's image but, otherwise seems like the sort of topic that only becomes widespread when people are being dicks. it needs visibilty to get accross that no it's only some people holding this attitude and not endemic to the whole thing.

[@laordendelguaraguao8002]

Hello scholagladiatoria, good video as always and a good topic of discussion. I think your attitude of inclusiveness and openness is all fine and good. I just don't feel that trying to achieve quota of representation as a priority should be too present in the mind of anyone running a martial arts school. In my opinion I find its kind of a waste of energy even if its for a good cause. I think that if your school welcomes all types of people and give them a fair shake is already on to itself quite reasonable and more than enough. Yes address the issue and manage it to the best of your abilities but don't lose too much sleep over it either because in the end there's only so much that you can do about participation. Its hard enough to find people that might be truly interested in HEMA in a general sense. In the end people will do whatever they are going to do despite your expectations and who ever wants to join and stay will do so. Hope that makes sense.

[@jeremiahshine]

Check out "Doyle Irish stick fighting" here on yt. It's the Irish version of swordplay when the Brits banned the Irish from having blades

[@liasrvalleysmith7515]

Myth. Shillelagh where used by both British and Irish people way before any rebellions.

[@jeremiahshine]

@@liasrvalleysmith7515 Of course the stick was one of the first weapons. The FACT is that there's an entire fighting system developed in Ireland when occupied by evil isn't myth.

[@jeremiahshine]

@@liasrvalleysmith7515 kzbin.info/www/bejne/eIm7mJuaq9V6pdk

[@Mikey__R]

13:40 when I did archery, there was one guy always hassling me to enter competitions, which I wasn't interested in. I've been thinking about taking up HEMA, knowing that many people only take it as far I would want to makes it more appealing.

[@Hercules1-v9m]

I have played Kingdom Come Deliverance before so I am basically a HEMA master. 😉

[@danielkeding3071]

Matt, I agree that often perceived elitism is in fact a way to protect the public from potentially dangerous environments. Here in North America we have the AUSKF (All United States Kendo Federation) and the CKF (Canadian Kendo Federation) which regulate kendo, iaido and jodo and is modeled after the ZNKR in Japan. There is also the Iaido Federation which is an offshoot of the All Japan Iaido Federation. These groups keep members apprised of seminars, provide ranking opportunities, etc. that allow their members to progress safely in their art. I think that these groups like Hema are essential for the the safe, proper use of historical weapons. Keep up the good work.

[@francoisdauzon3107]

Possibly more in response to Skal's thing than your "response" to him, but I think one of the issues is that HEMA is, basically, small. "Everyone place nice together" is a great rule to live by (and I think we do, as a whole), but it can be difficult to achieve when people have very different aims. With HEMA, many people won't have a choice of groups near them (many having none), so that one group takes on many attitudes. My personal experience echoes yours. I think, on the whole, everyone has been very nice and inclusive. But it can be hard to reconcile the small number of people who want to take it very seriously with the small number of people who want to just treat it as a social hour (to say nothing of the majority of people, who want to take it seriously and learn, but don't want it to become their career or life-purpose). And there's all sorts of other categories of people in here to. Some just want fun exercise. Others want whatever. In other sports, this isn't really an issue. If I want to play football (American or European), I can find a group that fits me whether I want to go pro, or just want to hang out with and get a pick up game once a month in the park. In small niche stuff, that's harder. I think one of the better ways of dealing with this in HEMA is to treat classes seriously, but not -super- strenuously. Listen when the instructor talks. Try to learn. Understand where it comes from. Take it, in general, seriously. That satisfies most people. And the people who want to get further into it can meet each other in the group and get together outside of it to work more. The only people this doesn't really satisfy are the ones who fall on the very end of the curve and are /just/ looking to hang out and talk with others who share a similar interest in a generally non-academic and non-athletic fashion. To them, I'll concede, things (might) come across as a "little" elitist, since this approach doesn't really fit them. But I think it works for 95%+ of people.

[@NevisYsbryd]

The matter of the last paragraph is not elitist, though. The two groups (those interested in engaging in the physical martial art and those strictly wanting casual social interaction) do not have intersecting interests. Those who are in it for, or are either unwilling or beyond reasonably able to devote their resources beyond, the physical activity do not have any obligation to cater to those who interests are incompatible with their own. Calling that elitist is presumptuous and entitled. While it would be great if such people find a group that meets their interests, no one _owes_ them that.

[@TimFromWinfield]

I've never had the chance to actively study, in a physical sense, HEMA, but I've got years in the martial arts community. You're absolutely right to call out those who don't have credentials and experience behind them. I've seen it in action, I've seen Bullshido first hand, and kids with all kinds of belt rankings and delusions of how good they are, get absolutely creamed when put up against someone who has actual training. At least in HEMA, most of that will just lead to embarasment, as they aren't likely to ever find themselves in a real fight, and certainly not facing a live edged weapon. That said, I fully agree with you, and Skall, and most others I've had anything to do with. It's not Elitist, it's simple reality, and the only gatekeeping seems to be for the purpose of protecting those who would learn from falsehoods, and bad teachers.

[@scottishwarrior3547]

Wow you described me 100% I been trying to do hema here I don’t even know were the group is in Utah so I been doing can work I even do a mix of judo and hema but yeah I do think I might be doing something wrong and I have no one to help correct me it doesn’t help when all my friends and family can’t win against me enough for me to learn only my three brothers can help but we don’t do it enough and they don’t practice as much as I do only my oldest brother wins all the time and I have yet to figure out how to to beat him and he uses a long inaccurate flail and shield and wins all the time I have a good group but I have yet to be great.

[@airnt]

in short: is the concept of exclusivity based on disqualifying groups of people who are very much using historical sources to base their (european) martial arts on? (though perhaps not asprecisely, or not as precisely in the same ways) it is interesting, that the definition you gave there should include quite a lot of what the battle of the nations/HMB crowd does. In fact, re-enactment was for a long time not very clearly separate from HEMA either, in the '90s. (and HMB also came out of re-enactment) the point is that they are basing themselves on historical sources (BON stuff have kit guides, armour needs to look historical to some degree, etc) the thing is that they make different compromises and have different levels of precision, perhaps. This is also a scale in HEMA anyway. For instance, 'hema uses weapons of historical weight' used to be a common extra tidbit to distinguish HEMA from olympic fencing, presumably; yet we use various training tools, like wasters, for instance. This is a (i think very sensible) compromise to be able to investigate things from multiple angles. It could be argued that some activities are in essence the same, yet use different avenues. Bashing people with thrusts being banned with blunted weapons in armour for sport... is historical... in itself... even if it is very limiting. (although perhaps mostly historically done on horseback) so i suppose that might be a source of the concept of exclusivity? i am just trying to think of the discussions i have seen with people basically wanting to see if their historical research (sometimes quite extensive) would be accepted as a basis of an activity. re-enactment... is based on historical sources...and involves fighting... and they look at the sources about that fighting too... even if their research is usually broader as they need loads of kit as well...they might focus more on group combat, perhaps, but that doesn't make it less historical... and then there are safety concerns that are satisfied in specific ways, that are constraints, but so are there constrains in the way HEMA does so. (with a fencing mask you can't smack a inch of blood on someones forehead ;) , which would be historical... but not very advisable :) ) so the divorce of living history and HEMA has often been characterized in outfits, frankly. i suppose there is people who get the idea of exclusivity due to trying to distinguish HEMA from SCA, re-enactment, HMB, olympic fencing, and theoretically even jousting and mounted archery, skill at arms... I have seen an argument that it has to do with the sources chosen to be based on, so treatises rather than anecdotal primary sources, for instance. Again, earlier work done into sword gripping, shield gripping and so forth is using historical evidence for fighting styles, even if it is harder to be very exact and there is more interpretation needed to use those sources... it is stil, i would think, falling under the definition you used (and you name a big proponent of that work here), yet you could argue it also falls within living history and re-enactment. so when two definitions cover it... it might just be both... even if the outfit fits the other... it might still be HEMA... then , depending on where you go... like Australia... HEMA and re-enactment were very non seperate for a long time... so the same people do the same actions with the same sword in different venues with different levels of protection.... were they doing re-enactment at one moment, and then HEMA another? It is similarly qualifying people as 'a re-enactor' or something of those things, because a lot of people could be known under multiple descriptions. Like... is Toby Capwell doing HEMA? i would say so... but he could be classed as 'a jouster' in stead. this kind of classification might not be intentionally exclusive, someone might just pick one of the many possible descriptors, yet be seen as excluding other descriptors....

[@CthonicSoulChicken]

It's no different than in Japan, where certain styles are considered historical and national treasures--you don't get to adjust them or change them. Toshshiro Obata had to actually leave Japan to start his own school of kenjutsu for this very reason.

[@Eisregen123]

This is nonsense. There are plenty of modern schools in Japan the problem with them is, most them have complete made up techniques or a simply stolen from other Ryuha. Also it is a false assumption that the old styles, which can trace back their lineage to the founder and are still headed and more important in posseion by the founders family are only considered historical they are historical. Therefore only the Soke (Head of the School) can bring change, simply because they own the particular style. The next false assumption is, there was enough change in the past, every single style that exists today, survived because they changed according to needs of the warriors. Certain parts a schools curriculum were invented, changed or simply left to rot if not needed anymore. Nowadays there is no need of change since nobody fights with polearms and swords. The schools are obsolete, they know it and all they do is keeping the memory or rather tradition alive. BUT as an example, the Soke decides that from today on, there will be full contact sparring in Yoroi and with blunt steel without holding back...then everybody in this school is free to do so, if not then you're out of luck since it is not your school, you're simply allowed to learn the traditions.

[@lalystar4230]

I wonder though, about what would happen if a soke were to put forward a change that would drastically alter the 'do' of the school in modern times, where the schools are mainly there to pass on the old traditions to the new generations, without the inherent need for change as the need for kendo for survival (or as a means to protect the daimyo or the state or even just the family head) has been lost in and of itself. Let's say a certain koryu has a heavy emphasis on speedy light strikes and the entire school is based around this and the soke (in current times) would then suddenly decide, no! we should put emphasis on slower but heavy strikes, like an elephant trampling on ants. thereby completely altering the do and the jutsu of that school. Would that be acceptable for current japan, who now emphasize on keeping the tradition alive?

[@Eisregen123]

@@lalystar4230 Koryu don't have that -do mentality and nobody in the world has anything to say in what a Soke decides for his school. Let me ask you a question. What makes a martial tradition? Techniques? Like I already said they were in state of constant change. The waza I study a likely very different in comparison to the time they were invented just like the waza were different around 1600,1700 or 1800. So what makes out the martial tradition?

[@lalystar4230]

​@@Eisregen123 Hmm.. that's true I guess. I didn't know the koryu don't have that -do mentality. I always thought they did. Thanks for the clarification! And yeah I truly agree with the need for changes back in those days, but didn't realise they would still happen these days!

[@tonic451]

@@Eisregen123 "there was enough change in the past, every single style that exists today, survived because they changed according to the needs of the warriors". Not only is this a false assumption but it's plain ignorant. Many styles were lost because the practitioners were killed or the texts/schools were destroyed in WWII. The styles that exist today isn't the result of weeding out the best from the worst nor did they reach the pinnacle of Japanese Swordfighting or sword fighting in general. Any martial art needs to change, to evolve or it will stagnate, become obsolete as a martial art. MMA proved that. We no longer sword fight to the death but who says there won't be MMA for sword fighting.

[@Interrobang212]

Just dropping by to say I had my first ever real HEMA class this week. Everyone was super friendly and It was a wonderful experience. We studied Liechtenauer longsword. Shoutouts to you, to Skal, and to Shad for being a big nudging force to get me to try it.

[@not-a-theist8251]

Would polish saber be considered HEMA then? Because as far as I know there's no written sources about it

[@favkisnexerade]

Yeah right?

[@zakr911]

If you consider it HEMA in the same way Viking reconstructed arts are HEMA.

[@Underjordiskentitet]

@@zakr911 viking reconstructed combat is more Experimental Archeology than HEMA

[@Roldren]

@@Underjordiskentitet But HEMA is experimental archeology. All the sources that survived are practiced by groups of people trying to recreate what was done in the past. HEMA IS a reconstruction.

[@ushuyayageppeto4225]

Nice video. Completely agree with competition that is different from club populations. About the bulshido: In HEMA, you *interpret* historical sources. The grey area is here: we interpret. You may patronisingly call bulshido something proposed by another club that matches historical sources but not in someone else sense, and works. So there is bulshido (dangerous, completely unconnected from sources) and bulshido (different interpretations) ;)

[@imyourthatguy]

Isn't there a difference between historical martial arts and historically cited martial arts. For example we don't have a lot of cited sources on what peasants ate in certain parts of history that does not mean they did not eat. There's more ways to infer/rediscover history then reading treatises. We only have a fraction of the material written on the subject so needless to say there's countless ways to fight that have been lost to time. Biomechanics is biomechanics, If it works now it would work then, and if it worked then why wouldn't they do it whether or not they wrote it down. I think by discovering the best/most efficient ways to use the tools of the past we discover the past. only subscribing to the fragment of written information limits your potential to becoming the best weapons master you can be.

[@TheNeilBlack]

The goal of HEMA isn't to become the best weapons master you can be. The goal is to recreate, as accurately as possible, historical martial arts. Just because a technique works biomechanically doesn't mean it was used historically.

[@imyourthatguy]

@ShadowKick Right, I can acknowledge HEMAs purpose but I think it's fair to recognize the fact that there are multiple ways of unraveling history. I'm not saying that it's definitive evidence but I do think that it's evidence to consider. My point is that HEMA schools often consider written documents to be the only evidence of history we could infer upon which to me seems silly.

[@TheNeilBlack]

@@imyourthatguy Unsourced experimentation isn't history, though. History requires sources. Otherwise we don't know if it's historical.

[@imyourthatguy]

@ShadowKick from the Royal game of ur to ancient food recipes there's a great deal of non-textual inference. I would say that there's a great deal of non-textual inference in understanding the manuscripts. You have to take a ton of things into account like common knowledge at the time for instance. Historians even today are not required to cite sources that are considered "common knowledge". I'm not saying it's as credible as the manuscripts just that if you don't take into account the secondary sources you're missing out.

[@TheNeilBlack]

@@imyourthatguy We know about the Royal Game of Ur, and how it was played, through historical evidence. Several game boards have been found, as well as instructions written on clay tablets. I'm not sure what ancient recipes we have without evidence of them, but I doubt we can be confident they're actually historical.

[@wallaroo1295]

I think it is okay for HEMA to be just that Historical *European* Martial Arts - as for league things and competitions, I think HEMA will evolve into it's own unique, pure form. Along with the other global forms, I can see the culture coagulate like MMA did. And in the future, I can see something like a "Historical Mixed Arts" competitions and leagues becoming a thing. Where we /will/ get to see those "Samurai vs. Knight vs. Norseman vs..." fights we all seem to enjoy talking about. And I think it will be pretty cool. We'll get there - it's a relatively new thing in just the last decade or so.

[@labbyshepherdpuppy5943]

Do you think Filipino martial arts can technically be a branch of HEMA since it has Spanish influence? A bridge between European and Asian martial arts

[@Underjordiskentitet]

Same question could be asked about Afro-Caribbean machete fighting - its also a mashup

[@labbyshepherdpuppy5943]

@@Underjordiskentitet well if there’s emphasis on historical then why not?

[@AngryArchaeologist]

Reading the comments, I perceive that part of the problem surrounding this discussion is that the word 'elitism' connotes different things to different people. Elitism can be related to socioeconomic class (some sports have a reputation as being 'of the elite'), or elitism can refer to the perceived attitude of the practitioners of a discipline toward other related activities or even toward members of the same discipline who feel they are being looked down upon by those with authority. Elitism can also refer to other boundaries that prevent people from taking part in an activity, such as monetary boundaries, time commitment, religious or cultural group, age requirements, geographical location, membership in a certain clique or group of friends, intelligence, athleticism, the ability to achieve a certain grade or standard of results in order to be taken seriously... Elitism is actually a bit complicated, and in the absence of a clear definition, the people leaving comments are (somewhat) speaking past one another.

[@NevisYsbryd]

Same thing with gatekeeping. A lot of people are assuming (or projecting) an intrinsically negative association with it, when the type of boundaries and definition-preserving that Matt espoused _is_ gatekeeping, by definition. I think a lot of it comes down to an unspoken (and probably oft understood at a subconscious or unconscious level) conflict in value judgment regarding borders/boundaries and to what extent individuals and groups have a right to maintain it as per their own interests, which inherently includes excluding persons and things that conflict with that, versus the ability to grow and cross-reference by being more open and those who abhor borders and exclusion in general. The same thing is playing out the broader social and political domains, such as the arguments over open borders versus restrictions, total moratorium, or ejection of immigration. One form that rarely (seems) to get addressed is that, for some people, part of the appeal is specifically about engaging with the practices and (albeit revived rather than living) traditions of their race and/or ethnicity. For such groups, regardless of whether they are then open to individuals outside of that category, having too large a proportion outside of it or altering the group's resources and focus too far changes the nature of the group to no longer meet that desire. This puts forth the question of whether it is pragmatic or ethically permissible for the original group to exclude elements that compromise its entire purpose by the perspective of its constituents, especially during a time when exclusion on (at least what can be construed as) the basis of race or ethnicity carries such a volatile political charge. Thankfully, the more general form (at least seems to me) to be the concern the overwhelming majority of the time, though.

[@mysticmarbles]

This is my issue with Shad's latest "HEMA" instructional video. He does some larp fighting with his friends and even admits he doesn’t read the sources. Then he labels the video “Shad’s HEMA philosophy.” It’s just begging to be criticized.

[@raymondfoster9326]

Many folk agree with Shad and ‘his’ philosophy on HEMA... And no, they aren’t wrong just because they aren’t accepting the elites accepted philosophy and definitions. There needs to open debate on the matter.

[@mysticmarbles]

@@raymondfoster9326 No offense but did you watch the video you are commenting on? You can't just make up some system and call it HEMA. HEMA is specifically practicing from a historic source. It doesn't matter if people "agree" with him. They are objectively wrong because it is by definition not HEMA. It's not the elites deciding the definition either. It's an acronym. Historical is in the word.

[@raymondfoster9326]

@@mysticmarbles I didn’t suggest making anything up... I said elitists don’t get to decide on the final and only interpretation. Huge difference. If I practice HEMA and someone says I don’t because it’s not ‘pure’ enough for them, they are wrong and it’s still HEMA I am practicing, that’s my only point.

[@mysticmarbles]

@@raymondfoster9326 It's not about it being 'pure' enough though. It's about it not being HEMA at all. If he was studying from some sources and had added his own ideas onto it, then you could maybe call it a pseudo form of HEMA. But he self-admittedly doesn't read the sources. He's not doing HEMA at all. Not even a little bit. It's experimental recreation at best.

[@raymondfoster9326]

@@mysticmarbles he’s not personally read the sources but has learnt from them and others who have... So he’s not just making things up from scratch 😂👌🏼 Hes actually doing what the sources say to do and add your own techniques that work for you and teach them to others...

[@Tommiart]

I love your insight into the personality types in HEMA. Really interesting... especially about the awareness and/or pursuit of justice. 👍

[@kevinrobinson5654]

Matt: HEMA is a term that has a definition. Postmodernists: Definitions are elitist and exclusionary.

[@MasterOfBaiter]

Spotted the Peterson fan xD. Btw the term historical isn't nearly as specific as Matt makes it out to be here....

[@clutchingdaggerz359]

Bingo, Skal is just stroking the PoMo shaft cuz " muh inclusivity ". He's just virtue signaling.

[@MasterOfBaiter]

@@clutchingdaggerz359 you are the kind of people that is the actual problem...

[@kevinrobinson5654]

@@MasterOfBaiter You attempted to undermine the definition of a common word and labeled another human being the 'kind of person' that is 'the problem'. Thanks for demonstrating to everyone else why postmodernists suck.

[@MasterOfBaiter]

@@kevinrobinson5654 historical just means it is grounded in historical presedent. Exploring the use of historical equipment without consulting sources for example is experimental archeology and would already count as historical. That's why it's not just about manuscripts. Most historical people didn't read manuscripts. And what I meant with "the problem" is the kind of people who become hostile at the slightest push back and who immediately assume worst motives like "virtue signalling". Post modernist my ass that term has literally no meaning and I am pretty sure Skall probably isn't even aware of it. Sorry but you guys are just wrong the term historical is as broad as every aspect that is and has been part of human society. Not just the noble culture of fencing schools counts as medieval martial arts.

[@Katznberg]

I'm curious regarding the definition of bullshido. In the video it is not clear but from what I understand listening to Matt, bullshido describe martial practises that are teached as historical but are not. But i thought unpracticl martial techniques, regardless of historical or not, were all put under the bullshido name? Ironically this definition would put real techniques from manuals under the bullshido category, of course there is the "end them rightly" but also "bring two friends and a bag" from lekuchner or the "1 vs 10 provided you had a bag or rocks" from hundt.

[@theblancmange1265]

Women in general are less interested in hitting people with sticks. Fewer women being in certain hobbies isn't something that needs "correcting".

[@McBlazington]

6:15 it can also refer to the art of building a fence. Please tell me that historical fence building is included in HEMA.

[@stefanfranke5651]

At least in Talhoffers manuscripts it's described in the illustrations how to set up the fence around the ground for a judicial duel. So yes, technically, building fences is part of HEMA :D

[@McBlazington]

@@stefanfranke5651 this makes me so happy

[@Gloin79]

Another point might be that HEMA is full of nerds and while most are fun there is a tendency to be a bit arrogant, thinking you know it all when you only know slightly more than the average person.

[@robinrehlinghaus1944]

I wouldnt really say they know only slyightly more than the average person. It is a lot.

[@malcolmmaciver7000]

No disagreement with anything in here - though I do think a confounder that is present is that different clubs approach the sport in different ways, eg generally schools for longsword will work from one master, while some clubs operate using techniques across multiple sources. eg the club i go to does broadsword (smallsword & quarterstaff too but broadsword is around 85%), and works across several of the earlier manuals (Wilde, Page, McBane,etc), however some of the techniques (and even wards) differ significantly compared to later sources (Angelo, Roworth, etc) and so for the same weapon especially if you're using multiple sources the interpretation can vary substantially without compromising on the historical research. In many ways its difficult to draw the line at where historical vs informed improvisation overlaps (perhaps we should all be purists ?)

[@stevenkobb156]

Right on, Matt. We know how tolerant, kind, fair, honest, and brilliant you are. The only exception I've seen may be when you start an idea with, "I'm no expert but..." then proceed to demonstrate that you are being modest and are indeed more expert than most. That, and perhaps some questionable puns. 🤣 So if you call bullshido, we know it is crap. 🤣😉

[@Nimno74]

Some approaches to history requires a great deal of filling in the blanks left by missing sources. What I mean is, the number of existing HEMA sources probably comprise a tiny fraction of the number of actual techniques that have existed throughout history. It seems that some people who take issue with only using sources, would rather use the existing sources to extrapolate what might have also been, through testing and experimentation. Just my two cents.

[@Arkeo36]

Hema practicioners - nerds Katana respecters - dorks

[@commanderblargh6300]

People that hate on katanas, anime, and weebs - *Rasicst towards Asians*

[@davidyamj4853]

@@commanderblargh6300 *finally, someone who understand it*

[@Leubast]

HEMA, imo, is both a loose term, but also specific. There's many forms of HEMA, manuscripts, trainers, masters, ect from various parts of Europe. Even so, I don't think it's wrong to not follow those masters when experimental archology is at play. We don't have any video footage of a warrior from 14th century, only still drawings. We have to do something that is not in the manuscripts without knowing if any master taught it.

[@PJDAltamirus0425]

The first point is more complicated that you think because has you pointed out before.... there lots of European martial cultures and dueling before sources were a thing. Would a person trying to reconstruct Viking martial arts not be considered martial arts even though there are no sources but they clearly trying to learn something historical, Celtic, ancient Roman?

[@paulzikang]

How are trying to learn something historical with no sources?

[@Psiberzerker]

Right, but that the H in HEMA. Of course they would be considered Martial Arts, but we don't have Historical Sources to work from. So, about the best we can do is read Roman, and proto-English (Keltic, Gaelic...) descriptions of the Vikings. Also, the Ettas, I guess, but that's like trying to find the Arc of the Covenant based on what is says in the Old Testament. (Not much) They give you lots of details on how they Made the Arc, but what happened to it after? It doesn't say. You missed the point of that first point: It's Martial Arts, but it's not HISTORICAL Matrial Arts, because we don't have an illustrated History for Vikings the way we do for Fiore.

[@Ahris22]

If there is no source it's not historical or even mythological; It's simply the imagination of a modern day human.

[@fudgeisg00d]

You can't consider it "historical" if there's no reliable written source, regardless of whether your practice would be effective in an actual martial situation.

[@PJDAltamirus0425]

@@fudgeisg00d I'm talkimg about reconstructing martial where there are no treatsies... that has the most social ecause treading the treasties is essentially treading over beaten ground.

[@r3d_dru1d]

It's not elitist to want to train in the "real deal". But, that being said I believe that people should approach training to fight with at least the level of seriousness that demonstrates that you know that what you're doing can get people hurt and maybe even killed. It's ok to be casual before and after class, but I think that when the masks are on and it's training time, then it's time to be serious."The art of defense" is ultimately about fighting, that's not a "safe sport". Swords weren't made to look pretty, they're made to kill people. I LOVE the "Bullshiddo" = "Shitvalry" comment, 100% with that! :)

[@leonpeters-malone3054]

Well, good point of the protection side of things. Wish I thought of it. Thing is, I still think there's a gap here. You say you can study from a manual, you can study under someone who has a translation, you can study it yourself. Thing is though, having a manual and studying from a manual is one thing. Being able to read and understand, comprehend the manual, that's a whole other thing. I mean, that's a whole point of one interaction in Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon. One of them, the master could only understand the pictures, the other, the student had the education could read it. One of them got schooled. I've had..... Agrippa, Capo Ferro works in the original language. I could read 'some' of them. I had someone make a claim that they used a certain type of language in the manual. They were patently wrong. I could read enough of it in the original language, to know and see they are wrong. I had it in the original document, they were obviously wrong. Is it elitist to say they're wrong? I don't think so. Is it elitist to defend the art and form, to point out the research, context of a manual? I don't think so. When you're doing it with the ability to read the original language, to have access to the primary source and to be confident at your reading of such an item? That I think is a tougher question. As an amateur, it certainly could come off as elitist. As someone who can read the source, has the source, has the knowledge to discuss it and to debate the use of language, compare to other manuals, it's not. It's part of the hobby, passion, study. Your preferred word here. I don't think it strictly gatekeeps. I think there's some good translations out there and the more translation, the more we question the sources the better. I do think someone with the time, experience, research, understanding, comes in and just info dumps..... it's still not the greatest look. It's still not the best introduction. It's all well and good to drop names, but giving people the tools to understand what they're trying to learn, that's more important here. And perhaps HEMA's failing. We say they're out there, we're getting better at putting the sources out there. We're not so good as giving people the rational, the logic, behind some of our assumptions, forms, styles, schools. Otherwise, Wheaton's Law. Don't be a dick. Real simple.

[@LangstonDev]

The biggest example I can think of of HEMA elitism/gatekeeping is some prominent people in the "sparring with sharps" crowd who have said you're not really practicing HEMA unless it's with sharp swords and without safety gear... Seeing that level of discourse online almost put me off getting started in HEMA altogether - I'm getting old and I have a job and a family, I don't have time for internet drama. At some point, acknowledge it's a hobby and different people participate at different levels. Drawing these artificial lines to say "The way I enjoy this hobby is the correct way, the way they enjoy it is the incorrect way" - gatekeeping- is the best way to make sure no one new comes in and it dies a slow, painful death.

[@Mtonazzi]

Prominent crowd? There's actually many of those? ... ... at least I guess, they'll be pruning themselves out /:

[@stefanfranke5651]

I feel with you but I want to point out, that these "practitioners" are in no way representative for the HEMA community. I advise to look out for physical communitys somewhere around where you live and meet them in person. Most of them will probably be humble, friendly and openminded, will have different interests, other life dutys (work, family etc.) and are there to focus on training, educate themselves and over all, enjoy their time. These guys you mentioned are clearly no serious practitioners of HEMA, because if they were, they had no time to run their mouthes on the internet.

[@charlesdrew3947]

Speaking as a reenactor belonging to a group that practices weekly (in non covid times) I am fully aware that what I do is not HEMA. We make a point of telling newbies this and do have links with a local HEMA group for those interested. There are various reasons we don't practice HEMA which I won't go into, but I do get annoyed with other reenactors who claim to be HEMA when their not. It's all horses for courses and the more interaction between different practioners of various fighting styles and disaplines the better.

[@ZemplinTemplar]

Reenactment sparring is perfectly all right even if it doesn't follow HEMA to the letter. Reenactment sparring is first and foremost about the theatrical performance and the dramatic entertainment you can get out of it, so even if not everything is accurate, you can still provide the audience with a good time. And that's what matters. (At worst, you could always say to the audience: "Please note that we're not sparring to the death and it's not going to be stunningly realistic in every move, but it'll make for a good and fun watch.")

[@charlesdrew3947]

@@ZemplinTemplar Agreed it's mainly for entertainment. And some stuff from HEMA can be incorporated, but obviously blows are largely pulled and really don't want stuff aimed at the face etc. I think there is some snobbery in every area, and would be great if we all learned from each other.

[@edwinpoon]

Mr Easton, I just had a thought. Why can't HEMA evolve with recent studies, based on historical sources? Is there a need to stick to simply the sources? For example, I have mixed I.33 with Marozzo S&B into my own style, and found it quite useful to counter techniques just focused on their own manuscripts.

[@Adam_okaay]

How do you feel about people who expand upon "HEMA techniques" or combine techniques from different schools of HEMA. Of course there was a degree of dissemination between schools in the Medieval period, because there wasn't total isolation, but if you were long-swordsman trained in England it would be pretty unlikely that you would use techniques like that taught in Spain or Italy. But due to the ease of information access in the modern era, it is much easier to learn a variety of techniques. Also a long-swordsman of the 13th century and 16th aren't going to be schooled the same way, so wouldn't it be more historical to region/time lock techniques to preserve historical accuracy?

[@clutchingdaggerz359]

No, because that would be " intolerant " according to leftists like Skal. Having a uniquely European martial art would be racist you see. Lib logic 101.

[@favkisnexerade]

I actually think that hema has much less common with historical fencing than random clubs who pass experience by being teachers with experience. Like when I came to club without hema and someone explained feints and combat stance that you need to hold legs bent, that looked much more authentic than following manuals of elite fighters written for elites. I think people should rename hema to HEEMA "Historical European Elite Martial Arts", because I highly doubt it was historical to learn elite techniques rather than learning from experienced street fighters. You can even see for yourself on hema tournaments, it's never clear hema, its a weird mix of everything with bits of fuckery gaps being closed by improvisation. To top it off, lots of techniques in hema are just kung fu, moves you never see in tournaments because they dont work, they are just for show.

[@ivanharlokin]

How do you expand on them? The original context of the systems was (by and large) people using weapons to defend themselves. That context doesn't exist any more, so there is no way to actually test the efficacy of your innovation. You could expand/develop systems to be more effective for competitions (based on the rules used) or sparring, but it would have nothing to do with it's effectiveness as a self-defence system.

[@effigytormented]

@@clutchingdaggerz359 wow, project much?

[@clutchingdaggerz359]

@@effigytormented OK libtard.

[@andreastanzer4026]

I think there is only one thing that may exclude some folks from hema: it's the cost of the equipment (at least when it comes to serious sparring/first tournaments level). Thats much higher than for most other martial arts (and other sports like soccer, tennis, basketball etc).

[@l.o.b.2433]

4:32 Good thing we don't have a large KZbinr claiming him bashing his mates with longswords in his back yard is HEMA, right?

[@themasterofinfinity]

a certain university?

[@l.o.b.2433]

@@themasterofinfinity *Perhaps*

[@stefanfranke5651]

The implied youtuber would even claim, that it's winter right now where he is. Ludicrous!!

[@hic_tus]

Me building a fence in the garden, phone ringing: "Oi mate, yeah give me a couple of hours, just finishing a wee HEMA sesh here... yeah, yeah. see you soon."

[@RainMakeR_Workshop]

Sure you're "of less magnitude" then Skallagrim, in terms of KZbin numbers. But Skall isn't an expert, authority or academic in HEMA (nor does he claim to be), where as you are. Even Skall himself would most likely defer to your expertise in HEMA. Aside from areas of interpretation of technique of course.

[@lachirtel1]

I think this is a general phenomenon whenever you have 1). a cultural activity based on technical skills (in this case, historiography and martial application), 2). that becomes more popular over time, and 3). The lack of a central licensing or rulemaking authority. I think this is especially true for "core text" based traditions. There is always a tension between orthodox interpretation, modernized looser reading, or outright writing new texts to move the tradition while keeping the name (which is of course super historical, as Matt points out the tendency for historical sources to just say "engine" or "sword" when describing different things). You might have to take a seat on the HEMA Council.

[@farrex0]

I mean, of course there is elitism in HEMA, what other martial art has pommels that you can unscrew and throw at your opponents?

[@louisvictor3473]

In fact, canons were so powerful because they ditched the rest of the sword, oversized the pommel, and just threw it at the enemy with very much force that they were indeed ended rightly.

[@commanderblargh6300]

@@louisvictor3473 Cannons were invented in China

[@iratevagabond204]

I wonder if there are examples of HEMA practitioners and and non-HEMA swordsmanship practitioners dueling, and what the outcome is on average.