340. Hadrian and Antinous

A mysterious death on the Nile, an unconventional love affair, a Roman-Greek hero turned God - the story of Hadrian and Antinous is full of intrigue. Join Tom and Dominic as they delve into the world of Roman romance, where gender binaries and modern moral arguments do not feature, and look into the possible theories of how Antinous' body ended up in the Nile...
*The Rest Is History Live Tour 2023*:Tom and Dominic are back on tour this autumn! See them live in London, New Zealand, and Australia!
Buy your tickets here: restishistorypod.com
Twitter: @TheRestHistory @holland_tom @dcsandbrook

[@Mute_Nostril_Agony]

I think Antinous would have denied that he was gay. But he was in de Nile....

[@kindnesslove5482]

Very good

[@Federico1685]

Hear, hear!

[@marys33794]

Clever 👏

[@Time_Is_Left]

@@Federico1685 told you so

[@sebastianb.1926]

The modern equivalencies you're searching for are "twink" for Antinous and "bear" for Hadrian.

[@Federico1685]

Oh my word!

[@semilio1]

It seems that buggery in the ancient world was pervasive.

[@tychojohnson8928]

One point not mentioned - Antinous possibly wasnt interested in sex with old men. At no point is it clear he displays any agency in this regard. If he was a girl no modern narrator would call this a love story, particularly as it ends in his mysterious death.

[@joejohnson6327]

I'm gay & I think people need to stop glorifying pederasty.

[@ianbanks2844]

​@@joejohnson6327Ditto .

[@Baslium]

We don't know. There is nothing left. But I think Antonius must be very special to the Emperor. Harian was surrounded by male concubine. But only Antinous can gain his love.

[@ropeburnsrussell]

You chaps should definitely record an episode after downing a bottle of port. You would be totally out of control and i for one would dig it.

[@Terinije]

An important thing to note is that classical writings on the subject were written by their equivalent of rich people partying on Epstein Island. So while they liked their setups for having young boys, I have to imagine that there were many, many, MANY, victims that did not like this setup, even if they in turn vicitimized boys on their own when they reached adulthood.

[@hanab3941]

Dominic is a really gifted narrator. I was absolutely transported to Roman Egypt within the first couple minutes.

[@deanedge5988]

Tom will be delighted as he wrote it.

[@michaelbedford8017]

I don't know if it was intended, but the conversation contained more 'double-entendres' than a 'Carry On' film. If one of them could do a passable Sid James, and the other a Kenneth Williams, the podcast would have been perfect!

[@ZiviyahOrnessah]

My personally favorite theory for Antinous' death is human sacrifice, however an unwilling one.

[@geordiejones5618]

Why though?

[@silvercorvidsmarketing]

My take is that Hadrian got drunk during the celebrations, got into a religious delirium (that everybody went along with) and killed Antonious. That... Would explain his reaction afterwards, when he sobered up.

[@kindnesslove5482]

The more Roman the better. I wish you did more in depth stories like this, but from the Republic. I want a series on Marius !

[@NSBarnett]

There is a general feeling that we know the REAL facts about sexuality (also science, also morality, also language, etc., etc., etc.) whereas people in the past were struggling towards the light which illuminates us. But then some of them would have felt the same about their predecessors, and people in the future will probably think the same about us. Look at the heat generated by transgender arguments! I happened to play this podcast just after some others on the gospel of Mark controversy (in which a C20th academic stumbles on a copy of a C2nd letter from Clement of Alexandria, indicating why Mark’s gospel is as queer as it is) so I’d be interested to hear you talk about C1st Judea and the mores of life there then, in particular, mysteries, and initiation. But mostly, why cultures of the religions of the book are prudish and sexually repressive; what’s in it for . . . whom?

[@Mute_Nostril_Agony]

Great narration, Dominic. You say that the predatory aspects of elderly Romans on junior, young boys was "a different world". Sounds like grooming behavior at ITV's Good Morning programme....

[@sohara....]

A rubbish comment!

[@ianbanks2844]

​@sohara.... no its not. It's absolutely spot on . And im gay by the way .

[@otterlyso]

"Tom, you love eunuchs. I mean, there's no doubt about that."

[@jonwolf6822]

..."young man"...

[@Secretname951]

Would it have been an issue for Hadrian to be known as the murderer? Would he have needed to cover it up?

[@Secretname951]

Wonderful episode by the way.

[@bookaufman9643]

You say that slaves were considered feminized but the gladiators were slaves and I don't think they were considered feminized. Actually women wanted their sweat as an aphrodisiac. I don't think that the Romans viewed all slaves the same.

[@joejohnson6327]

All male slaves were considered "feminized" in the sense that they, like most women in extremely patriarchal societies, had no control over their lives. Of course gladiators weren't considered feminine, but their masters could treat them like "prison bitches" anyway.

[@gosiachaaban2484]

As for Christians hating Antiuous....could there be another reason, too? Other than rivalry...his cult seems to be a mockery of that of Jesus in some way.

[@bucksolo703]

Its always a jealous wife. I would bet all my money any murder of a lover comes from the jealous spouse. I learned that from all the murder porn on ID Channel lol

[@marquese1960]

I bet Hadrian wasn't the only one that found him gorgeous 😍 half his coterie probably wanted him. They party and jealousy rears it's ugly head and Hadrian throws him overboard...it takes no time at all to drown if you can't swim. Just speculating of course, no one really knows what happened. Were Romans fine swimmers--not sure.

[@janetbaker1945]

Saddened by Mr. Holland's take on Pride month. But I suppose, after all, he is a 'British Christian.'

[@joejohnson6327]

I'm gay & I see nothing wrong with his take.

[@janetbaker1945]

Yes, Joe, of course you don't. You prefer gay sex. Many who practice heterosexual sex don't see anything wrong with it either, of course. But the fact is, fertility is precious. We are losing Western culture right along with fertility, because the two are inseparable. All that made England magical will be gone in a generation thanks to mere perversion of its birthrate.

[@andreteixeira5635]

No, Tom Holland is not even a believer.