The Battle Of Tours: Warlords Of The West

[@serbianhistorygames]

I do not agree with downplaying the Battle of Tours. Perhaps the Saracens were only mounting a raid (rather big raid), but had it been successful, you can bet that they would be back. When the Ottomans conquered the Balkans, they first started out with raids - in order to demoralize the opposition.

[@gabrielethier2046]

This was also the case with Anatolia under the Byzantines

[@jamieholtsclaw2305]

I was thinking the same thing.

[@andersbjrnsen7203]

Yes, but as they said, there were other raids after this, even more successful ones.

[@allancarey2604]

I read a book on Islamic perception of the west, what they were writing at the time & the Author said there was very little written until the siege of Vienna. Very little was written about the lands north of Spain. And what was written dismissed the region as full of uncouth barbarians. He used that as a proxy for the importance of the battle. In comparison, there is a wealth of documentation around the east.

[@procinctu1]

@@allancarey2604that is also something of an equivocation.

[@johnoleske7967]

Franks to the left of me, Saracens to the right, stuck in the middle Odo.

[@bergerchicken]

Here I am

[@restishistorypod]

Excellent

[@joythought]

Got to feel for Odo and his daughter.

[@steveinthemountains8264]

Hey Tom & Dom. Damn, Tom, you have such expansive knowledge and perspective on European history. Dom is the perfect foil who adds tremendous depth to each podcast.

[@semilio1]

“That battle was not that important and there was no Christian v Islam clash”. Then they talk the next hour about how important it was and how Christian Rome would fall if Martell had lost.

[@TheRightist]

Well, it's like historians in USSR were forced to insert some Marxist-Leninist tosh in the beginning of the book.

[@davidw4987]

Tours is 550km north of the Spanish border, so it can hardly be called a "border raid". The Islamic raiders/army were striking into the heart of Frankish lands.

[@aidanbarrett9313]

On the subject of Bede recording the Battle of Tours, it is intriguing how news still spread relatively fast and far during the "Dark Ages".

[@HbagMbag]

A Top of the Pops episode! Great presentation!! Wonderful narration and excellent interjections of rich questions.

[@Rikalonius]

Love you guys. However, there seems to be a modern trend in historicity to deconstruct anything that came before and to gainsay it for no other reason than it isn't a modern interpretation. Since 632 the Umayyad Caliphate had been conquering territory without end. The Levant, the Mesopotamia, then North Africa. They entered Spain in 711 and had the Visigoths conquered in 9 years. To think they had no plans on further conquest is just insane to me. Is it the most important battle in World History? That, of course is up to opinion. We saw later than even in conquered lands, new Caliphates replaced old one, and then the Ottomans took control. It isn't as if Islam conquered all of Europe there would have been world peace.

[@adampascoe1084]

Once again another fantastic episode 👏🏻. I find the targeted destruction of the sacred tombs fascinating, whether it was the Vikings at Lindisfarne, the Umayyad target of St Michael’s shrine, Dowsing’s destruction during The Reformation, the construction of Christian churches over pagan shrines, or even Achillies’ desecration of the Temple of Apollo, it is a cultural genocide. Ripping the heart out of a community, destroying the sacred power of the monuments and so the power of the Saint’s and gods themselves. Your choice is to conform or die.

[@StuartEvans-h2h]

The ever -centralisation of power , the nature of kingship; I find the story repeated elsewhere and at different periods of history where people are threatened. I realised this looking at Maori culture's reaction to European incursion , ie a High King to co-ordinate a combined effort etc . Another great podcast - hi to both.

[@primecuts13]

The comparison with Cortez is inadequate. When the Umiyadds invaded Spain it was more of a muslim reflection of the Norman invasion of Saxon England; radically changing the culture, structure, and faith of the region. It seems that at a certain point this conflict was ideologically apocalyptic between the Christian and Islamic sides. Charles' limit was the threat on the sacred Christian shrine of St Martin while the Arabs are led by an extremely zealous general from the near east. It requires no politics to hold this view.

[@joebombero1]

Agreed. The Spanish later took with them innumerable Nahuatl allies to help settle the Philippines. So many Nahuatl went to the philippines they changed the language. Tagalog, the national language of the Philippines is peppered with Nahuatl words. The Saracens would never have taken native Spanish allies with them to fight or help settle France

[@robinsanders5541]

I've got a wonderful mental image of two Anglo-Saxons standing in front of their burning village during a Viking raid, with one saying to the other, "It's not a very sophisticated method of belief, is it".

[@upscrambled9367]

ain't no program of imperial rule, innit

[@countdowntorevolution9986]

I'm not right -wing at all... but just looking objectively at the history the saracen invasion as you describe it sounds nothing like a "raid". you describe them sweeping right the way across the whole of Spain and then half of France! (installing governors as they go) And even if Odo's estimate of enemy numbers was exaggerated by 300%, that would still mean they had 100,000.

[@flawlessvictorychannel1]

I think they are trying to differentiate between the raid/battle as an isolated incident and the events that occured in the aftermath

[@jsteveson81]

Thank you for explaining the controversy and detailing significant facts for both sides to consider. Too often historians will treat its listeners like children.

[@tomhirons7475]

Again for me, everyday is a School day with you guys. Thanks.

[@Wee_Langside]

Didn't the invasion of Spain start with a raid? Why would the Caliphate who'd conquered The Arabian Peninsular, The Levant, as far as Afghanistan and all of North Africa not want to conquer as much of France and Europe as the could? It seems to under estimate their ambition completely.

[@Wakobear.]

Arguably, the earlier 721 battle of Toulouse was probably more important. If they'd won and killed Odo, Toulouse would provide a strong powerbase to annex all Aquitaine not mere raiding. And in 721 Charles Martel hasn't fully consolidated yet. With Neustria still revolting and attempting independence under Ragenfrid of Angers. Perhaps Umayyad Aquitaine could join forces with Neustria against the Peppinids. Seeing it as their only way of restoring Neustrian dominance over the Austrasians. And making the calculation that the overextended Muslims wouldn't be able to campaign effectively beyond the Loire. If they do manage to defeat Charles Martel, resulting in an Umayyad southern France. While the long weakened and divided Neustria would be a semi vassal/puppet state to the Umayyads

[@josephanuga2543]

Thanks for this analysis.

[@eminentbishop1325]

Its crazy to me how attached people are to the battle of tours being some penultimate point of conflict between Christiandom and Islam that defined the next 1000 years

[@DF-ss5ep]

In Portuguese, the word for "hammer" is martelo (~Martel)

[@kumarg3598]

In hindi, its maratula

[@PeloquinDavid]

​@@kumarg3598Yet another surprising apparent cognate between Latin-derived and Sanskrit-derived languages...

[@renwickmcneill9522]

In spanish martillo, in Italian its martello

[@PeloquinDavid]

@@DF-ss5ep The name "Martel" is Old French (whose modern version is, like many such words, the reduced-form "marteau"), though the French verb form is still "marteler". It's no surprise that the same Latin-derived word is used in other Romance languages, but it is always a pleasant surprise to find what seems like a pretty obvious cognate in use in a Sanskrit-derived language at the other end of the Indo-European range!

[@OliverFranks-f4b]

Amazing, thank you looking forward to the next episode

[@alfredVN]

Its ironic that even after Tom and Dominic call out that this is politicised for gain in modern politics, half of the comments are doing just that and politicising it 🤣

[@TheRightist]

Calling it politicised is also rather politicised.

[@woofythestuffedwolf]

You literally made a comment about how their interpretation is “woke”. If interpretations of a battle from the 700s can be described as woke or far right, then there’s clearly a significant amount of politicization happening. You do know that woke (and far right) are very modern political ideas that didn’t exist back then right?

[@patrickorr813]

Another wonderful show guys very informative.

[@patferry4128]

Right because successful raids are never followed by larger & larger raids which never lead to invasions. Modern scholars have been separated from modern warriors worrying Thucydides and myself.

[@jmanjman2685]

I’m sorry but this whole “they were just raiders” stuff is kinda just wrong. Their so called “raiders” took over all of spain and carved out a massive empire.

[@countdowntorevolution9986]

@@jmanjman2685 right?

[@abrahamreyna287]

He’s speaking specifically about the party that fought the franks

[@andrewmcmurray8081]

This is political signaling from them whether they realize it or not (they do)

[@joythought]

You didn't listen to the episode. Tom makes exactly your point very well but with much more nuance and avoiding imposing modern ideas onto a campaign from over a millennium ago...

[@somealias-zs1bw]

Also interesting how absolutely no attention whatsoever is bestowed upon the industrial scale slavery engaged in by the Islamic faction in Europe. The 30,000 slaves mentioned in this video are just a tiny prelude to the literal millions of slaves, mostly young women and girls doomed to seksual slavery, who would be violently seized by various Islamic elements over the centuries following the initial appearance of Muslim forces in Europe. Fascinating that it's trendy to consider slavery as the most evil crime ever perpetrated in the history of the world but it's also trendy to retroactively cheer on the Islamic expansion into Europe as some kind of would be beneficence while completely ignoring the face it was literal grapes and pillage and mass slavery.

[@kaloarepo288]

In 725 the "Saracens" under Anbasa reached the city of Autun in Burgundy and even marched up the Saone Valley. Areas in Provence and the south were occupied for considerable periods. Significant Saracen settlement at Freycinet (place of ash trees etymologically) from which many raids/ expeditions came. Introduction of many new crops such as buckwheat from here -still called "grano saraceno" in Italian. Tours or Poitiers was not insignificant -if Franks had lost we would have had exactly the same Islam creep that occurred in Anatolia -first with the Arabs and then the Seljuk Turks -a battle here and a battle there and then we have Manzikert and the Byzantine empire begins to crumble and eventually disappear! Don't underestimate Tours (sometimes referred to as Poitiers) and don't underestimate the failure to take Rome (Saracen raid on Rome) and then sea battle of Ostia -Italy would have been next!

[@dashman36]

Its was wonderfull to listen to these two subjects of the Caliphate of Greater Londonistan (formely know as uk).

[@humblescribe8522]

You have no idea what you're talking about. All the best, London resident.

[@Sditchvampire]

He knows exactly what he’s talking about. I too am a London resident

[@humblescribe8522]

@Sditchvampire You'll be able to provide me with daily examples of you living under Sharia law then? Away you go.

[@jamesjones3320]

I love you guys. Not right on this 1. Raiders don't wait and decide to fight after 3 days

[@ODDwayne1]

Very serious talk today. Well done. Thank you Tom and Dom. Great men.

[@kaasmaster8892]

The counterfactual you guys put up serms very fantastical. A loss at tours and the death of Charles Martell would not have led to an enduring muslim conquest of france.

[@urbanlumberjack]

Excellent. Love this podcast

[@restishistorypod]

Thank you !

[@tropics8407]

I learned a lot. Thank you 👊

[@TheRightist]

You did a good job not diminishing the significance of the victory while still maintaining a woke enough image not to be ostracised by academics by paying some attention to their "far-right" hysteria. Good balancing! Not to mention you actually end up militating against the "purely material" component of it by highlighting how guarding the relics affected tactics. Also it's worth mentioning that civilisational clash doesn't only include religion (including self-professed). European identity and European ethnicity are even more important. If it were pagan Franks fighting against the same Moslem Arab-Berber "raiders", it would still have the same civilisational impact.

[@Phalerus1]

Quite the jump-scare thumbnail there (I didn't have my glasses on). Excellent episode.

[@peterhendriks4736]

Let’s face it, Islam armies never were of the ‘enough is enough’ kind. Without push back they would have entered Europe, or at least France. A European domino effect of some kind seems likely. In that sense Charles Martel was very importanrt: this is the end of your expansion. And it worked.

[@GJenky62-q4k]

If only Europe had a Charles Martel now instead of the quislings in charge.

[@ekesandras1481]

in the past when you emigrated to a another country, you had to convert to the religion of the land - or leave.

[@humblescribe8522]

​@ekesandras1481 that wasn't true of Islamic Spain, which was famously multicultural, and a great centre of Jewish culture.

[@alexandreseron459]

In France, this battle is very much portrayed as a decisive and founding event in French history. Most schoolchildren would know about it, well 30 years ago in any case! Also, it's known in France as the battle of Poitiers, which is 60 miles south of Tours.

[@jacobtackett8214]

"Cold cup of sick" is horrible. I felt that descriptor. Wonderful images 😂😂.

[@FiveLiver]

Yellow belly custard, green snot pie, all mixed up in a dead dog's eye...

[@nigelmcconnell1909]

Never thought The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire should be taken as a Gibbon

[@MalikF15]

People think this battle saved Christendom but people forget the Abbasid take power in 750 so no not really

[@eddiel7635]

Not really, the battle halted the Muslim advance into Europe. Hence, it ‘saved christendom’. Nobody is saying the battle ‘defeated Islam’.

[@ulrikjensen6841]

Luckily there are no vikings to disturb the Frankish/German army today

[@MalikF15]

@@eddiel7635 the Abbasids really didn’t do conquering like Umuyaads. So if they did win and revolution happened Christians push them out again

[@keeperofthedomus7654]

It saved was what left of Christendom. The provinces of Northern Africa were all Christian before the Muslim invasion. St Augustine died in Hippo in Christian Northern Africa just before it fell. The loss of Egypt was especially devastating. The Copts have managed to hang on, but it hasn't been easy!

[@baltasarnoreno5973]

@@keeperofthedomus7654 Saint Augustine died in Hippo in 429 AD when it was being besieged by pagan Vandals, not Muslims. The subsequent Vandalic kingdom was Christian and Roman and remained standing until Justinian's conquests in the following century. North Africa outside Egypt didn't fall to the Muslims until 670-680.

[@oraz.]

Did they do one on the samogitians in Lithuania in the northern crusade? If not so I hope you guys can do.

[@waynemcauliffe-fv5yf]

Well done fellas cheers. Thanks Franks

[@bookaufman9643]

Europe is in such a dangerous period. You have the Islamic raiders coming in from the south and the Vikings starting or nearly starting to come in from the north. It would still be a while for the borders of the European countries to take shape as we know it now and this kind of danger from all around certainly didn't help. It is a little bit strange that the Vikings kept coming for decades and decades but the southern problem of the Berbers and friends seemed to hold itself to Spain after a little while.

[@PcCAvioN]

There were internal problems with Arab leadership leading to civil war instead of continued expansion.

[@nathaniel4334]

The Vikings used the sea lanes long before there were navies to oppose them. Those from the south were mostly land conquests, and so were able to be held back by barriers such as the Pyrenees and other factors. The Vikings had the choice of where and when to strike, and so were harder to catch. Also, they didn’t become interested in conquest until later. They were content with raiding for the first period.

[@Adsper2000]

Not to mention the Magyar hordes soon coming in from the east

[@bookaufman9643]

@Adsper2000 that's right. There's always something coming off of the Steppes. Different groups of Warriors every century.

[@FiveLiver]

41:15 Oh woeful ignorance: "..most of them, I suspect, are not motivated by a passionate commitment to the teachings of the Qur'an". But they are, chapter eight is called 'The Spoils of War'.

[@12345678990bob]

Thanks gents another fantastic video!

[@restishistorypod]

Thank you !

[@jaredfry]

Thanks for presenting (and moderating) both perspectives on the significance of the battle. Tours is neither the equivalent of 12 guys in a boat nor a justification for murder.

[@Sarabelle58]

Why use the term "far right"? Just curious.

[@procinctu1]

That is a very much a loaded term used almost exclusively to de-legitimize people and arguments rather than bother to debate and defend ideas.

[@originaluddite]

It's more like a courtesy to the rest of the right to show they are not being tarred with the same brush, and far more accurate than pretending there are only two sides to an issue.

[@keeperofthedomus7654]

@@originaludditeIf that's true, it doesn't work. That term just keeps on creeping left to include more and more moderates and centrists.

[@originaluddite]

@@keeperofthedomus7654 I agree it does not work, in that the political spectrum described by left, centre, right is far too simplistic. And then, as you say, there's the problem of massaging definitions, although I think you'll find that's done in _all_ directions, depending on who is doing the talking. It might be useful, however, to look at the various self-selected groupings in, say, the European Parliament, to see that a Christian democrat is different from a conservative, and a conservative is different from a sovereigntists, and they all have reasons not to be together.

[@TheRightist]

@@originaluddite To be honest, a Christian Democrat is not different from a conservative. They hold the same main political views. That the CD have a somewhat different party genesis from before WW2 doesn't change this fact. Conservative is of course a broad moniker but in this case CD is the same as mainstream center-right elsewhere.

[@tbjorkfo]

When are you going to do 1066?

[@colincampbell4261]

Extremely important battle.

[@ethansommer2882]

It was an invasion, not a raid (the invading army had 20,000+ troops, not a raid). If they had won, they would have done just like they did in Spain. I understand, living in the UK, it's hard to say these things without facing problems. Sad that Europe is being colonized again and Europeans seem to be asleep.

[@jezalb2710]

What did they do in Spain? The region flourished back then

[@stephenduffield1324]

Rest of the french revolution please

[@FiveLiver]

In the new year

[@scotthendrix9829]

As a medieval historian, I would have to side with Dominic on this one. You're right, Tom, we can't know for sure what would have happened if the Franks had lost, but as Dominic notes, the Arabic sources don't make much of the Battle of Tours. I see lots of commenters who want this to be a civilizational struggle, but that is not the historical consensus. See the work of scholars such s Michael Kulikowski and Thomas Burman (who reads Arabic, but focuses more on intellectual history). I am unaware of any medieval historians who agree with Tom's idea that a loss at Tours would have led to some sort of falling of dominoes and the conquest of Italy. The Muslim forces were already stretched too thin.

[@OliverFranks-f4b]

Its iff topic but could you do something on ancient china maybe wu zeitan or the first emporer chin (?) ?

[@jezalb2710]

They did

[@walterht8083]

Anybody knows how to remove the automatic ai translation in order to listen to this in the original English?

[@timelanguid4813]

I think you should have spoken more about the Saracens emergence to the point of meeting Odo. If they had taken Spain to get to areas of modern France it seems like a big movement to get through Europe to France. Perhaps a bigger explanation of this was needed...

[@ImperialGuardsman74]

"Not an invasion but a raid" Most invasions start with raids that weaken the enemy. This is silly. This is literally the ottoman playbook. As for minor...the two prinicipal politicians of western europe were there, leading armies. Hell the viking parallel - viking raids transformed into the danelaw, norse mann, norse dublin, norse strathclyde...

[@davidcoleman2796]

Tom must have turned up the heat . His wolf is gone . 😂

[@Genarii]

So, Hitler thought an Islamic German Reich would have been a wonderful thing because it is far more supportive of violence and aggression. Yet, those in Europe who oppose Islam today are regarded as "far right." One would think that the very things that Hitler liked about Islam would be the things that would cause left wing opposition to it, given how opposed today's left is, by their own reckoning, to fascism. This says to me that one side or the other has their moral compass turned around 180° when it comes to this issue. You can decide for yourself which side that is.

[@williambranch4283]

Historically, Islam as we know it, was solid by 824 CE ... so 100 years later. Abbasid Islam is the real thing, what continues today.

[@valiantabello]

Never even heard of this battle. Excellent work gents

[@allancarey2604]

How’s this as interpretation…the battle of Tours is an inflection point. Not the titanic clash in of its self, but a point where history could have gone two very clear ways?

[@allancarey2604]

And that being only with hindsight

[@TribuniPlebis]

We don't see much raiding anymore nowadays. Unless we count Black Friday mayhem as raiding.

[@thew8belt169]

Shocking that Tom would divest himself of his wolfen cloak as the Europeans form their glacial wall.

[@voltaire1111111]

One moment raiders then invaders

[@LODOWICKMUGGLETON]

Today's episode might have been censored, if I were in charge, for this: "...goes down like a cup of cold sick."

[@2balastair]

Were the Spanish Visigoths Christians who were defeated in the first Saracen raid across the straits of Gibralter?

[@johnsimpson8893]

They were "kind of shot"? "kind of"?

[@damienbegley8675]

Dear God, Tom doesn't know about the recurved bow??? Dear God love Tom but that is like not knowing what the crossbow is. Severe ignorance.

[@mariadange06]

Aquitaine is in the South West not East.

[@emknight84]

Sometimes raids lead to invasions based on how they go. Englishmen should know this.

[@Kronk3]

Who opened the gates of Toledo?

[@MexAm120902]

Given that Europe is and has been surrendering itself to Islam via immigration for the last 20 years, it is sad and ironic to hear the story of Charles Martel now. Present day Europeans, esp the French, are making his victory meaningless. 😢😢😢

[@donspain7888]

You keep saying this wasn't a Muslim invasion,but yet you later call incursions into Gaul jihad,you say their general is a hard-core muslim,you also showed Rome was in danger if the Caliphate won,but say this wasnt that important.Which is it? I enjoy your presentations,but throw political correctness out and call a spade a spade please.

[@seanpidduck]

Perhaps you could do an episode on what happened to the black slaves who were sent to middle eastern countries and ask why there isn't a Muslim minority there now? Islam has always looked to conquer the lands which they invade. They are not friendly and historians would know this.

[@Loratorafromkelowna]

Tom is looking a little rough. Still playing the barbarian? 😂

[@richardparker5042]

Love the show but the battle of the boyne would beg to differ...

[@Marjorie-yt7pb]

Their faith was their " secret weapon"😊

[@John-qy9nw]

1200 years later we learn about the primacy of the Qur'an in any case. So, we got there in the end. Farage is but a way in, not the solution.

[@TheOrigamiPeople]

Byzantine historians attested to this battle as having the same significance as the Arabs defeat during the siege of Constantinople in the same century. It was a clash of civilisations to the people of the time and any current ideas of them being raiders ignores these facts.

[@eshaibraheem4218]

Spellbound, as usual.

[@aidanbarrett9313]

An interesting alternate history where the Battle of Tours was an Islamic victory and Celtic Christianity was luckier in the British Isles: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Wheels_of_If

[@Christ_Is_Lord_88]

We used to be a real country

[@Oxnaforda]

Are you referring to france?

[@12345678990bob]

Probably mexico

[@ryanlee8712]

I hear that

[@bookaufman9643]

What in the hell does we used to be a real country mean? When your country was wighter or more Christian or what? More conservative I'm guessing?? I don't think you can make a less educated sentence than the one you made.

[@eddiel7635]

@@Oxnaforda It’s a Russian troll, they are flooding social media with random nostalgic despondent comments about the demise of the UK.

[@crobert79]

I studied this battle at uni in 1999 and was told this was one of the most important battles in European history. I didn't realise till now that my professor was a far right racist fascist nazi 😂😂

[@michaelbedford8017]

Charles Martel sounds like a 1970's disc jockey.

[@redclydesidehl6026]

1:48 what leftist has ever said this, literally just a random snipe from a posh center right historian who only loves story’s. It’s not as if he can only criticize far right nationalist historians…..

[@kiabasa]

Historians are familiar with how cultures and religions and entire races are wiped out through aggression by outsiders. If contemporary historians are down playing battles like Tours as a raid, it makes me wonder if their objectivity is clouded by ideology. Even if it was just a raid, dismissing people who take pride in their civilizations victory as “far right” shows a smug arrogance which I find distasteful. At some point in our recent past, it became more fashionable to paint yourself as an international citizen instead of a proud member of a culture. The best way to represent yourself as such, is to belittle and criticize your own culture, while propping up the virtue of foreign cultures and downplaying their faults.

[@eminentbishop1325]

I'm not sure why a battle from over 1000 years ago should be a point of pride for you. You call it your culture but I doubt Martel or Peppin or Clothar would ever look at you and see someone that they'd want to share their identity with.

[@eminentbishop1325]

Like how can you call a Frankish warlord and King who considers himself more Roman than anything else you're culture. You have as much claim to Martel as a someone in China does. 1000 years ago is another world. The notion you get to claim it is the fantasy

[@kiabasa]

@ If you don’t understand what pride is and where it comes from, I’m not going to get you to understand it in the KZbin comments section. You’ll just have to figure out the concept of pride for yourself.

[@nikhtose]

You continue the Western conceit that the Franks “saved” Christendom at Tours, while ignoring the two titanic sieges of Constantinople, in 684 and 717, which dwarf it in size, broke the Umayyads (leading directly to their defeat by the Abbasids), and were serious Muslim invasions. Had either taken the City, it would have meant the wholesale conquest of Europe from the East, with all the historic consequences we can imagine. If anybody “saved” Europe, it was the Eastern Romans.

[@benchapple2117]

The quran is being taught in Oxford University today.

[@ellaw356]

Islam had not even been around for a century when this battle took place. It wasn't a Christian vs Islam fight. Silly to keeps talking about it.

[@tavuzzipust7887]

The mock German accent while reading AH distracts from what is being read.

[@Sditchvampire]

‘Far-right’ thrown about quite liberally

[@aidanbarrett9313]

Spain was to the Umayyads what Taiwan was to the Kuomingtang!

[@74357175]

Topical.

[@bookaufman9643]

You've said that the Battle of Tours is maybe the most controversial of battles but I would guess that the battles of the first crusade would rank right up there. There are few words that a Muslim dislikes more than the word "crusade." Perhaps the reason why the crusade isn't the top pick is because it's not just one battle like Tours is. It's nice when you're able to correct yourself in your own small comment.😊

[@eddiel7635]

Why don’t they like the word crusade?

[@bookaufman9643]

@eddiel7635 because of the connection to the Christian Kings coming to the holy lands and massacring a lot of Muslims. Not just once but over and over again.lol. I don't get caught up in the politicizing of words but you could see why that wouldn't be a word that they would love. I understand that it's just a word that has a different meaning depending on how you use it but it's not the same for everybody.

[@eddiel7635]

@@bookaufman9643 Not really, it was 1000 years ago. Also, are they that narrow minded to think there is a difference between a muslim army invading or reconquering another territory than a Christian one? The territory belonged to Byzantium before the islamic world. 🤷🏻‍♂️

[@bookaufman9643]

@eddiel7635 it is what it is. I'm not advocating for one side or the other. It is a word that does get picked up by right-wing groups who purposely use it because of the Muslim disdain for the word.

[@eddiel7635]

@ lol, nobody is running around shouting for a crusade, as a windup or otherwise.

[@waynemcauliffe-fv5yf]

Forget the right wing the left wing are always the bigger danger

[@Vretens]

You’re wrong and probably not for the first time.

[@waynemcauliffe-fv5yf]

@@Vretens Love being wrong to the always right matey

[@roberthayes4912]

The first Islamic crusade

[@justsceptic3085]

battle of poitiers not tours...

[@pdog547]

Far right? Really? I'm really disappointed to hear that out of your mouth. Still listening though ;)

[@procinctu1]

That is a very much a loaded term used almost exclusively to de-legitimize people and arguments rather than bother to debate and defend ideas.

[@ReidWendling]

Liked this show until this episode. Sad they shame ppl on the political right.

[@ianbanks2844]

I agree . It is , unfortunately, getting worse . And , i noticed that when they did their series on Martin Luther , that they constantly took the piss out of the language used in those days by Christians . The question is, would they be like that with muslim sensibilities ? And we all know the answer to that.

[@kakab66]

Nothing must be said against right wing people! Ever!! 😂

[@TheMakersRage]

Watch the last 15 mins

[@stephengray1344]

How are they doing that? They come way closer to agreeing with the take of the political right on this battle than they do to agreeing with the take of the political left.

[@procinctu1]

You should have seen how they savaged Trump before the November election.

[@GrantH-xi8hd]

Now NGOs ship them in on the taxpayer dime 😂😂. Everything changes but everything stays the same folks.

[@NorthernObserver]

This demented xenophilia really bothers me. Enough. It’s ok to be English.