Retainers Henchmen and Mercenaries in D&D

[@davegallman2865]

If you think about it, Bilbo Baggins was the original retainer.

[@BanditsKeep]

Indeed!

[@Xplora213]

Dave. You legend. And somehow Sam Gamgee was exactly the same😂

[@kontrarien5721]

And Sam was a rare one with a morale of 12.

[@JeffreyJibson]

A good example of hirelings is the soldiers in Clash of the Titans (1981). These were hired by the queen. But, if you look at Thalon, he was dedicated to Perseus (high CHA) and eventually his friend who died for him.

[@BanditsKeep]

Yes!

[@NegativeHeadspace]

Retainers are backup player characters. No lie.

[@BanditsKeep]

They can be for sure

[@johnstorm9314]

I always outfit my hirelings with leather armor and at least a dagger. They're not expected to fight, but I also don't want them to have no chance at survival if an enemy somehow targets them.

[@BanditsKeep]

Makes sense

[@drmonroej4]

As a new player, my fighter was hired by the party specifically to help kill a dragon. Our first random combat encounter while traveling was with a manscorpion. So I sat it out. Everybody else was drawing weapons and preparing spells. I said “I’m going to pull out a ration, take a seat on the wagon. Let’s see how they do.” The other players lost it! The DM calmed everyone down and asked what took priority, the fight or the argument, so they killed the manscorpion. Afterwards we were talking and I explained that I had been hired to kill a dragon, nothing more. I’m not just payed muscle, I’m a f*cking Dragonslayer. But I assured them that I would help for free if I felt they were in trouble. Everyone agreed that was what my contract said, and that they hadn’t really needed me to help kill the manscorpion. Plus, it was actually really great and believable role playing for a first timer. But don’t expect any potential loot from a fight I’m not in. And then the DM awarded Xp, giving me a 1/2 share. Everyone lost it Again! 😆

[@BanditsKeep]

Interesting- I guess if you have a specific contract 🤷🏻‍♂️ but IMO if you sat it out intentionally I would not award XP

[@SusCalvin]

We've always specifically used a company model. Every PC is an equal-value stakeholder in a shared venture, with equal share in the proceeds when the dungeon is complete and the company dissolves.

[@CaptCook999]

Awesome! Sounds like something that I might do. Keep up that great roleplaying!!

[@johnstuartkeller5244]

Man, I WISH my players would consider hirelings, but the don't want to share ANY gold or xp! 😂 Any specialties they don’t have, they do without.

[@michaelwebb3827]

It's a function of party size and challenge scaling. If you have a large enough party with just the PCs, or if the DM is scaling the challenge down to match the current party size then parties could conceivably get away with it; but the way I explain it to newer players is that the Retainers are there to fill in gaps in the party's tool kit. They cost money and hence XP, but they also have skills that will allow you to delve for longer and deeper into the dungeon; and in old school games, deeper levels have more lucrative treasures in them; they really should almost always be a net gain in terms of XP / Gold gain unless they are being mis-managed. If you routinely have 5 or 6 players, I could see them getting away without them, especially at lower level. But any party of less than 5 really should benefit from having at least 1 or 2, in addition to the non-combatants to carry sacks of loot (coins at 10 to a pound in old school means you use up your encumbrance allowance very quickly), etc, etc.

[@CMacK1294]

See, I don't work to balance my encounters perfectly. My players typically bring 1 or 2 henchmen each, specifically so they have characters gaining XP in case their main character dies. Every character starts at level 1 in my game. So dying and getting set back without a henchmen would be unfortunate. Henchmen allow them to have that second character along gaining XP and thus catching up decently well. They might go from a level 6 character to a level 4 or 5. It's a setback to die, but not a colossal one. And they can adventure enough to gather funds and attempt to revive their fallen main character. The more people they have along, the greater the threats they can conquer, the more treasure they can extract, the more XP they get. My players finally seem to have seen it click when they cleared out a Behir lair and walked away with 150k worth of treasure and XP to split amongst the group.

[@BanditsKeep]

If that works for them, not a big deal, I like to have all the help I can get

[@nicholaswallen8147]

You can always have henchmen without paying for them...Necromancy 😂

[@nosaurian]

I like it when players do that; their greater share of XP and treasure feels very much deserved. but all too often they barely come back alive xD

[@stevenisonline]

I don't understand how your channel isn't more popular,you're one of my favorite DnD content creators by the way! Thanks for the excellent videos!

[@BanditsKeep]

I appreciate that!

[@Goblinerd]

I have no idea if there is an adventure like that (NPC adventurers get killed, an the PC hirelings have to escape the dungeon), but god damnit if that's not the coolest idea for a DCC funnel! Might not have been the point of the video, but it sure is a great idea, thanks for the inspiration!

[@BanditsKeep]

If you run that, let me know how it goes!

[@scottmarsh2991]

Hirelings made the money make more sense in my last OSE game. I was spending most of my treasure to fund a well equipped entourage. Coin went quickly, though I was hoarding jewels.

[@BanditsKeep]

Nice

[@CaptCook999]

Remember in National Lampoons Vegas Vacation when Rusty tells them he's broke because " having an entourage is expensive"? Well there you go. Having an entourage may cost you but you might be the only player that didn't have to write up a new character.

[@heroeshomebrew]

Retainers and Henchmen are so important to a low level party. Especially with early editions when the number appearing of some monsters can be 40-400. It can be a little bit of extra work on the DM’s part and takes a bit of getting used to not completely forget that they exist.

[@BanditsKeep]

It is easy to forget they are around when the party gets involved in more social scene and the henchmen tend to fade in the background. Or during down time.

[@heroeshomebrew]

@@BanditsKeep I might have to start rolling what the henchmen do during downtime. The party might have to bail them out of jail.

[@SusCalvin]

@@heroeshomebrew If you roll any sort of event table for what happens during downtime in town, you could apply those results to henchmen. Sometimes a hench is the link between the PCs and a new city event. Some groups like to roll some sort of carousing table for partying too hard between adventures.

[@heroeshomebrew]

@@SusCalvin That’s what I mean. The downtime activities can be applied to hirelings as well as PCs. Depending on what happened they may not even show up for work lol.

[@SusCalvin]

@@heroeshomebrew You were supposed to roll morale to see if a henchman re-enlisted. They are free contractors who can decide to do something else after an adventure. This doesn't mean they are hostile, goons that parted ways on friendly terms can show up and offer their services later or act as contacts for the player bums.

[@christopherdecator9742]

This is great stuff! When I run OSR games, I award henchman xp as .5 a PC the way you described. That always made the most sense to me. I think the 1gp peasant in the mercenary chart might be for raising peasant levies as militia, but it is a good heuristic for hiring some random guy to watch your wagons or your camp or whatever while out on a delve. I will say, overland travel in a game like B/X or Rules Cyclopedia is often far more dangerous than a dungeon might be.

[@BanditsKeep]

For sure, thanks!

[@needmorecowbell6895]

Best puzzle I've ever come up with is a heavy idol that sits over the ladder to the next level. It takes 100 total combined strength points to slide the idol aside. The players find a map describing that the idol slides and pivots to the side revealing the ladder going down. I'm always amazed at how stubborn players are about hiring a few laborers to come into the dungeon and help move the idol. They will go to extraordinary lengths to find any other way to move that idol: magic, prayers to gods, talking to demons, anything but the obvious answer.

[@BanditsKeep]

Players do like to solve things their own way 😊

[@CaptCook999]

Starting players rarely have any money left over after buying equipment. Perhaps the mage would have a few extra coins and it's not a bad idea to hire a bodyguard. In some campaigns I was able to convince players to each provide some cash for a "group fund" for expenses. I played Thief characters so my ledgers may have been a little off but I just blamed that on my poor math skills.

[@projab]

i like how whenever you explain rules from old games it seems to come from actual experience with playing those rules/your interpretations of them, not some "these are the holy books of moldvay, thus eternal and true". your vibe is also "this is how i like to play, and it might not suit your group", which is something i feel many old school players you see online don't seem to understand.

[@BanditsKeep]

Thanks, I do try to speak from my experience and preference. As you say I believe there are many ways to play and certainly not one true way.

[@reynoldsVincent]

I'm glad you mention 0-level because the old Dragon magazines often offered rules on what that meant and what a 0-level could do in terms of novice-level training for all the classes, given they were probably a peasant farmer in origin. They were useful, even necessary, mostly to guard the camp and so were low-level merc fighters, particularly on a ship or crossing extensive wilderness. Nowadays players ignore random encounters at night but in my play posting a watch very often saved the whole party from wipeout from random encounters at night. Pack-bearers helped, someone to watch mounts, all that avoided disaster that was all too likely given the way the game was played, and it made sense, given history and realist fatigue rules. My recall is that I paid 5 gold a day for a noncombatant, 25 for a low-level merc, and half share and half experience for a henchman. Often a player would die and take over a henchman as a PC and only then would they get a backstory. So many felt they earned a place in the game and I can't recall anyone risking them casually, especially as we had to depend on and trust their loyalty in a pinch. They got magic items occasionally. I recommend them to modern players, they add something to the realism of the game, perhaps a feudal obligation to think hard about risking many lives who hoped their employers were sensible and sane.

[@BanditsKeep]

For sure

[@andrewlustfield6079]

@@BanditsKeep The problem, for me, isn't in how to divide treasure or how to award experience points. That part is clear. And I love the idea of having back-up characters ready to hand in case a primary character dies. And I sort of like the idea that adventuring parties would have lots and lots of followers. They're hitting treasure troves. Word will get out. I can easily see there being cooks, leather workers, tailors, washer women, mercenary guards, and possibly a barrister to act as the pay master and quartermaster. This all makes a lot of sense, the kinds of money the characters get from dungeons etc, would wind up attracting this kind of attention. It's a question of scale and how to run these extra characters in the campaign. Let's take a pretty common example--you have a party of six characters that have recently reached fourth level, each one decides to hire one retainer. You now have a party of six fourth level characters and six first level characters. So there are redundancies in every category, most likely. It would take a platoon sized 30+ unit of bugbears to even challenge a party like this--between stinking cloud, sleep, and a couple of well placed entangles...That incapacitates half to two-thirds of your enemy force in round 1. You really have to scale up to confront a party like this. This is fine if you're wanting more of a skirmish style war game beyond squad level encounters. Then there is the question of who actually runs the retainers? Either the DM is running them, which means he/she is managing them to act alongside the party while also running the monsters, which with the scale of the combats would be pretty overwhelming. Or the players are running them, which breaks them from being as focused on their primary characters. My current thinking is to run them as two parties, where the retainers are following up on story threads the main party chooses not to pursue, keeping them operating in the same basic geographic area.

[@SusCalvin]

My cheap and quick rule when we nicked a DCC level 0 funnel was that 20% of the xp for level 2 brings someone from level 0 to level 1 in a class. A level 0 party is probably going to thick with people, the norm in their funnel adventures is 25-30 player characters and all of them will take a full share. And if the players are clever and aware of what dangers their party of 30 butchers, bakers and candlestick makers can reasonably face, and don't start throwing level 0 bodies at problems, a lot or even all of them will survive. But chances are that these dudes will relatively quickly gain their first level.

[@SusCalvin]

@@andrewlustfield6079 When we sat outside a megadungeon for years on end, a small boom town grew around us. There was always work for people, with good pay and the security of an armed and increasingly fortified base camp. A growing amount of herbalists, shepherds, craftspeople, guards, loggers got hired to tend to a base camp a bit away from the dungeon with a troop of guards rotating to sit at a bridge tower securing the dungeon entrance itself as our most forward staging area and fallback point. I look at what jobs the camp followers of early modern period armies did. Tactically, it is the players who run their personal retainers. I step in and tell them off if I believe the retainer is being humiliated or asked to take risks above and beyond their expectation. No retainer will agree to heroically sacrifice themselves for a PC or walk into a dark room as monster bait. They will typically fight side by side with their PC master, take watch on a door when asked to, join a PC fighter in charging the enemy, use their spells at the insistance of the PCs etc. If the campaign follows several parallell parties, with or without multiple players, you might run them as secondary PCs when that is what they for all purpouses are. If the PCs reach domain level, they will start to have their own groups of agents going around in the world. They will probably not roleplay every single patrol of their several companies of dudes, but it's reasonable to play the followers of your old PCs. Like the "next generation" of adventurers.

[@jeremymullens7167]

The old school advice was to do initiative as sides. Retainers move with the party. The other thing is there wasn’t detailed movements. The party gives quick explanation of what everyone is doing. Fighters are advancing to melee, charging or bracing for charge. Magic users are casting or hanging back. Rolls can be done in bulk. When the quick explanation is done the dm or player can edit their actions. Maybe someone failed moral or a PC fighter decides to charge in alone stead of bracing and corrects the action. This style comes up more with exploration. Basically more people allows you to search faster which means less encounters. You just give everyone jobs of keeping watch or searching. Gygax used to run 20+ individuals with the addition of retainers and handled it with a position called a caller. The caller was the de facto leader and announced actions and might split people in to groups based on class or level. Individuals then had an opportunity to edit their action if it differed from what was announced. I don’t remember how much wall you could search per turn but a larger party is going to search more. They might also loss surprise. I think there are pros and cons. If you are trying to run a 3e style game with individual initiatives it would take too long and I think that’s why it was largely phased out. If you do group initiatives and leave actions to broad descriptions, things more much faster and fluently. There becomes little limit to party size and goes much faster. Most people would start to make unit blocks for mercenaries if it got out of hand and start using quasi war game rules. It makes combat by lots of individuals go faster. In a dungeon, heavy foot can move in tight formations. They should be apply to fit more fighting men into a smaller area than goblins. I’d have to check what kinds of fighters goblins have but it would effect their formation abilities.

[@Satori2046]

Loved the video ! Funny is that I did a request to Professor Dungeoncraft to make a video about the subject, woud still love his point of view and compare it to your analysis. Great work !

[@BanditsKeep]

Cool, hopefully he will post something

[@Rakkitt]

I was literally sitting down to roll up some hirelings/retainers for my Keep on the Borderlands game, thanks for this video it pointed out all the page numbers I needed 😊

[@BanditsKeep]

Nice!

[@SusCalvin]

One of my friends limited the availability of magic-users and clerics as retainers. The vast majority of goons available will be level 0 men-at-arms with some level 1 fighters and occasional level 1 thieves if you specifically ask for one. But in their game, you can't go asking for a wandering wizard (or ranger or paladin, if you use those) to come work for you. Demihumans are easily available in friendly demihuman settlements (which you must sometimes discover first) and less available otherwise.

[@TheK5K]

Another of your great videos. This topic is great as so often misunderstood. I played D&D on 'hard mode' as the player group didn't want to share loot/XP, but now I'm DM'ing the players have got two loyal henchmen fighters they're happy to have around. As you say, you've got to make sure the party cares about them, otherwise they might be thought of as 'disposable'. I do XP for henchmen the 'standard' way - e.g. Total Party XP / number of PC's & Henchmen = XP per person. PC's get that full amount, henchmen have a full share *allocated* to them, but only *benefit* from half. So, 4 PC's and a Henchmen walk into a bar - by the time they walk out they have 1000XP total, that's 200 each - *but* the henchman only adds 100 to their sheet. So the cost of having henchmen is that there is some XP drain...but, they provide skills the group needs.

[@BanditsKeep]

Cool

[@SusCalvin]

One version my friends used had no drain. Goons that go dungeoneering with them receive a half-share of loot and xp. All henches have "trainee status" with a PC employer, like sidekick adventurers.

[@sundaybutane9725]

Needed this video today, thanks!

[@BanditsKeep]

Excellent

[@someguy403]

I really enjoyed the video! I like hirelings and henchmen quite a bit especially for solo play and lately I've been working on some tables to generate the types and amounts of hirelings available in a town or city.

[@BanditsKeep]

Cool!

[@NeflewitzInc]

I really liked Dungeon World's implementation of followers.

[@BanditsKeep]

Not too familiar with that, I’ll have to refresh my memory.

[@sw33n3yto00]

Thank you. Starting a Basic Fantasy game tomorrow with a rookie player and having the ability to better articulate the need and differences of retainer/henchmen/hireling/specialist will help greatly.

[@BanditsKeep]

Awesome

[@squirrellordsgaming2772]

This is a very good video. You have earned my sub. I will be referencing this for later.😊

[@BanditsKeep]

Thanks for the sub!

[@Calebgoblin]

Heyo Mr. Keep! This is really interesting and inspirational stuff that I feel confident I could use tbh. My 5e setting is very low magic, gritty and has some old school sensibilities

[@BanditsKeep]

Nice, you definitely can, I used henchmen in my 5e games

[@eightballprime420]

We should get a Gavin Norman / Bandit’s Keep crossover

[@BanditsKeep]

Gavin is a great creator to be sure

[@99zxk]

I feel like the 2d6 chart is a huge flaw. 6-8 for roll again means that there's about 45% chance to get this result. Of course, there's a possibility to role-playing where an 8 will do it for more money, a 7 needs more than an 8, and a 6 needs the largest bonus.

[@BanditsKeep]

That’s where bonuses matter with better pay, high charisma

[@davegallman2865]

I have been creating custom reaction tables for this reason. And of course, the roll-on-a-table can get in the way of role playing.

[@99zxk]

@BanditsKeep Sure, but one issue is that an average dice roll will yield a +0, so the majority of characters will have a huge chance of getting re-rolls. Like you said, it does open up some role playing opportunities.

[@bronsongorham]

I've had to house rule dividing XP with retainers since a few players get angry that their PC loses XP when someone else brings a retainer along. Instead of dividing XP between everyone (including retainers), I award each PC an equal portion of the XP, then the retainer(s) get a share of their employer's XP. So only the PC who hired them has a smaller share of the total XP.

[@pimc172]

I'm glad I'm not one of your player! Angry for xp, really?

[@bronsongorham]

@@pimc172 It was an online game, and yes, there were a few players complaining about having to share XP with another player that wanted to bring like 4 henchmen along.

[@BanditsKeep]

So I should let everyone else hire retainers and level faster?

[@bronsongorham]

@@BanditsKeep I should also mention that retainers served as backup PCs for those that hired them. So as you invested XP into your retainers, you could start at a higher level if your primary character ever died. Or you may decide to play the retainer as your primary PC once in a while. It allowed players to build up a stable of characters for themselves.

[@ahabicher]

Sounds like freeloaders! They profit from the presence of extra blades and arrows, but are not prepared to share the profit. I'd have a hard time not targeting them first with NPCs.... but more earnestly; I'd rather give the retainers bonus XP out of thin air, but I would consider not to invite such egotists to future games. In effect, because of the bad team-players you are training your good team-players that you punish them for bringing in help. You incentivize people bringing no hirelings themselves but suggesting hiring people to other party members. So they get full XP and level faster based on the work the others do.

[@SusCalvin]

The adventure "Escape From Innsmouth" from Chaosium featured secondary characters, a ton of them. Explaining it all requires a lot of spoilers for everyone who might want to play it. The last chapter, once the investigators have been well and truly chased out of Innsmouth after spending the majority of the book breaking into homes and sneaking around the streets or trying to talk with the few good people of town, is the federal raid on Innsmouth. The PCs are kindly asked by an array of officers and feds to help out with the raid using their now vast direct experience with the town. The feds will use multiple approach paths into town. Groups of marines are going to boat into the smuggler tunnels, the Coast Guard cutter Urania will keep a cordon by the reef, a small marine team will infiltrate the Marsh manor to arrest the Marshes present, one group will enter town and seize the order of Dagon, one submarine with a sealed order will descend and torpedo the underwater city. An off-the-board FBI group will raid the Marsh refinary. Each PC is attached to one of these groups, played by the original player. All other players are given temporary characters from the marines and Coast Guard sailors and their NCOs. You get a list of names, basic stats and a few special traits and skills. The scenes then cut back and forth in chronological order as the different groups reach (or fails) objective after objective in the raid. The smallest group, the group infiltrating the mansion, has all PCs and a single NPC along. The two marine units are at least two squads of marines. The cutter Urania and her two escorts and the submarine are entire crews of sailors with heavy weapons. And weapons are plenty, all these extra people are most likely more skilled with arms than the investigators.

[@BanditsKeep]

Cool

[@KammaKhazi]

excellent advice, much appreciated thank you.

[@BanditsKeep]

Thanks!

[@AuthoritativeNewsNetwork]

Be interested to hear your thoughts on Downtime, or however you run the adventures between adventures.

[@BanditsKeep]

Good topic

[@gatonegroloco]

A fun idea to add continues is to have one of your hirelings being your kid. Have them shadow you and learn and if you die on dive have the player take control of the son.

[@BanditsKeep]

Nice idea

[@SusCalvin]

We have done that. PCs have brought their useless cousin on adventures. The family hoped the cousins would be out of their hair on the fishing boat. All henchmen are instant replacement PCs, we have often elevated goons to PC status. If they didn't have a class level yet and were just an anonymous torchbearer, they are "field promoted" to a level 1 bum with the kit they had.

[@zantharian57]

As someone who never played original D&D, but really wants too! This was VERY helpful! It just sounds so cool! I always loved in those old movies when they would bring a whole camp of people.. but in modern D&D the players just do everything themselves, cook, don't need a protected camp, etc.. I'd like to know how you handle the need for a camp and people to guard it? Normally my players would just sleep in the woods and have rotating guard shifts. Why would they hire people for that? Furthermore, why would the party want to guard a camp they are not longer at, such as your dungeon entrance example. Why do they care about a camp up top when they are down in the dungeon? Why pay to guard that when you can just camp in the dungeon with rotating watches (preferably in a secret passage)? Thank you very much, I wish I could be a player at your table hah! Are there any basic/expert game streams that you recommend? Everything is 5e now >

[@BanditsKeep]

The reason to establish a safe camp is often for the horses etc you don’t bring in. A horse speeds up travel (less chance of encounters while traveling) and allows you to carry more treasure (treasure is XP in older versions of the game).

[@zantharian57]

@@BanditsKeep thanks that makes a lot of sense!

[@lloydbrown2713]

A4 In the Dungeons of the Slave Lords had player characters start out captured or killed & raised. They began without gear, loincloths only, and had to escape from the dungeon. Oh, and the volcano they were in was erupting, and they were all going to die (again) if they didn't get out.

[@BanditsKeep]

Of course that was a tournament module originally so that works great

[@SusCalvin]

Sometimes we have divided the hirelings between those belonging to the general expedition, and those on dungeoneering detail. The PCs can have a company of people that move with them on the regional overland map and garrison their base camp but doesn't venture into weird temples and elf pits. These dudes are paid a wage and expect a share of loot after defeating enemies in battle. Then there's a smaller personal retinue and some brave volunteers who accompany them into said elf-temples. This is above and beyond normal goon work, and they expect a normal share of treasure/xp from the dungeon. Usually a half-share in any game I run. These lads will start to accumulate a lot of xp and eventually be one or two levels below any PC. The guys on garrison at the base camp are still valuable. They make sure the PCs don't return to a looted camp, that is a real risk when camping out in the wilderness. They provide a fortified fallback point if the PCs come running from the dungeon with something following them.

[@BanditsKeep]

For sure

[@zelbarnap]

This a great video!

[@BanditsKeep]

Thank You!

[@renardtempleton]

Hi Daniel, thanks for the video. Any chance we can get a video on Sages?

[@BanditsKeep]

Interesting topic, I’ll think on how I would present that

[@michaelmullenfiddler]

I was going to suggest that the party's first adventure be a zero lvl gauntlet (or perhaps, funnel?) wherein the PCs are porters, torchbearers, cooks, etc, for a large and successful adventuring party, and the very first thing that happens is the party is mauled and everyone is slain except the hapless zero lvl PCs, who now must find their way OUT of the dungeon. But you indicated that a published module already exists that follows this idea. Can you please let us know what that module is called? Thank you

[@SusCalvin]

One of my friends ran a level 0 funnel where all of us played peasants helping the prince reclaim an heirloom sword. The prince is a henchman controlled jointly by all the players, he is a level 1-3 fighter with mail and sword+board. Everyone else has the usual level 0 gang, multiple level 0 stooges each. The prince is a big damn hero and has unbreakable morale if the players put him up against danger, but all of you lose if the prince dies. There was a lot of "Look out milord... Aaagh!" Like do we throw peasants on the problem or risk the prince.

[@BanditsKeep]

I can’t remember the name

[@SusCalvin]

Make a random table for gear they start with, but it's only stuff that some PCs would "dump on the mule". Spare oil, a ton of rope, a great amount of wooden stakes, three bottles of holy water... Only a knife and leather armour, you weren't expected to fight after all. But when you find a crossbow, you might get use for these 40 bolts you carry!

[@mmardh799]

very interesting thank you!

[@BanditsKeep]

Glad you enjoyed it!

[@SusCalvin]

Ars Magica uses retainers. Each main PC is a long-lived wizard somewhere in mythical Europe. Wizards typically think the best use of time is to sit in their tower and read books or enchant items or work on a golem for several years and meeting the normal world as little as possible. They go outside the tower when some magic nonsense or wizard politics makes them. Wizards exude an aura that makes it hard to get along with non-wizards. Each player has at least one companion. These are non-magical extraordinary humans who for some reason are employed by a wizard. They have normal human abilities and a normal human lifespan plus whatever enchanted items their wizard boss saw fit to loan them. They are knights, friars, master hunters, castellans and other exceptional people but never wizards. The wizard bad vibe aura still affects them but they've learned to expect it and live with it. Grogs are a special concept in Ars Magica. They are servants of the wizard coven and their tower. They are guard #5, the sergeant of a guard troop, a hunter, a wagon driver etc. There's an indeterminate number of them at the coven at any given time. A group of them can be drafted for a trip out in the world. They are a number of basic templates of run of the mill medieval servants and guards. A player who does not have a character present can always grab a grog as a proxy to be active at a scene. A session will typically have at least one wizard along, with any players who's wizards remained at home to read books for eight months playing a companion. They might have a troop of grogs with them to do menial things.

[@TheRedneckGamer1979]

I do something similar but I do NOT allow NPC's to have character levels unless its a major adversary. Usually what I will do is use humans from the Monster manual and increase or decrease the of the person based on the players level and then depending on how long they stick around with the party they might get an increase in their CR calculation or give them sidekick levels if the party keeps them around or becomes particularly attached to them.

[@BanditsKeep]

Cool

[@rogerb181]

I have seen two canpaigns where nobody wanted to play a cleric. Not any interest in hiring one. LOL

[@BanditsKeep]

They just didn’t want one?

[@SusCalvin]

In WFRP it's not given that there will be a priest or wizard around. But you can make do with non-magical healing in that game and have a barber-surgeon or doctor around.

[@TheLoveTruffle]

I wish my players used non-combatants more, but they create the story they want! Personally I'd want someone carrying an extra shield and spear for me in an adventure scenario.

[@BanditsKeep]

For sure!

[@jeremymullens7167]

Start putting hard to move treasure. Lots of copper coins. Maybe other things. Make the party has to work to move it out. Then the party might think to hire more hands. Then you need wagons and teamsters to haul everything. You very quickly can grow up to an entourage. The other option is to have the patron insist on going and bring their people. Let the party keep what they pick up but let the patron leave with all the treasure his guys can carry. Should get them to see dollar signs. It won’t work if you don’t make your treasure hard to move though.

[@nobody342]

So of the old school games, AD&D rules have a lot of the issues from the basic versions solved. Everybody always complains about gold for xp, but that is where its at, and AD&D solves almost all of the problems, but almost nobody seems to have even read the rules. DMG page 86, if followed eliminates all the disputes, including splitting xp for monsters with henchmen. why? because if following the rules of DMG 86, almost every PC ( and henchman) will have more XP then Gold, and they will not be able to level up until they get enough gold to pay for their training. This is how the game keeps player constantly seeking for gold, they will never have enough. So why is this relevant to your video about henchmen ? because you no longer have the issue of people complaining about how the XP is divided, especially the monster xp because the monster xp becomes meaningless. The party ultimately decides how the gold is divided, they dont have to give henchmen a half share, and then the employer PC has to make any payments. At that point, if the one pc who has many henchmen/ hirelings is pulling most of the weight of the adventure, and the other PC's dont want to compensate him properly, and things go to blows, then the PC with the henchmen and hirelings will win, and the other PC will realize that, causing them to desire to hire henchmen and hirelings also. A smart party will soon realize that they may not want to divide gold evenly amongst the party. They may find that one players character is vital to the success of the party and may want them to get a level faster then the rest, so they may give him more gold then everyone, thus making the party more successful. So many people over the years complain about not having a use for gold, or how old school games give to much gold, well just using the P86 rules, and people having henchmen/hirelings eliminates that problem also. I often like to play magicusers, and having a few men around you to protect you when the other PC's "Let" monsters get past them and onto you is quite useful. I dont know why people dont go crazy about hiring npc to help.

[@BanditsKeep]

AD&D certainly has many systems for many things. Fortunately for me (as I do not like that style of play) I’ve never played in a group that “came to blows” or wanted to split the treasure unevenly. But I’m sure for some groups, this is great fun.

[@nobody342]

@@BanditsKeep The point isnt whether people come to blows or not, or even whether XP is divided evenly or not, If people are having to pay for training, all of the XP from monsters usually becomes irrelevant to a great sense. Everything becomes about the gold, (treasure), and when there is magical treasure ( which I assume you occasionally give out) there is no such thing as fair division of loot, and a good party will find a away to divide the loot in the manner that is of best benefit to themselves and the group. Treasure division isnt at the DM's discretion, but at the parties. As to coming to blows, the original OD&D was often played as a Wargame. Ya all that white box stuff. I started with Holmes in '77 or '78 ( quickly went to AD&D as the books came out) but the first time I ever heard about DnD probably in 1976 as a Jr High school student, was by a friend of mine who was obviously playing it as the combined wargame rpg, (he was a wargamer) and looking back, I sure wish I new more about how they were running the game. ( I never did play with him though). Dont know how long for sure youve really been playing it, but its hard to believe that youve never been in a group where the group has never come to blows, or ever wanted to split the treasure unevenly. Many times Ive seen people readily wanting to divide the treasure unevenly, so they can get a mage ( for more firepower) or a cleric ( for more healing) or their strongest fighter ( for more damage dealing/absorption) of higher level for the benefite of the group. and if there is magic items involved, it is almost impossible for loot to be divided evenly! Take a look at DMG page 86, it solves SOoooo many problems that plague DM's in all the editions of the game. Ya, short term, the players may complain, but give it a try. the slower the progression in level of your PC's is, the more that henchmen/hirelings becomes important, It even helps in the case of if a PC dies ( which people in posts from this same video bring up) of having henchmen to available to replace fallen PC's ( it helps keep the level differential to a smaller value between replacement PC and the rest of the party). Keeping track of time, and player expenses is ( yes PC should be charged upkeep, armor maintainace ect) is also very important if you are using hirelings/henchmen. you have to make the PC choose what they want to spend their money on, leveling, henchman, or even basic upkeep. Do your PC have a secure place to keep their loot? or like many campaigns, do they carry everything they own with them at all times? The TIME & GOLD is the ticket to the campaign. Make the PC make choices! including the survivability that a Hireling can give them.

[@jeremymullens7167]

Funnily enough being only able to keep what you can carry was one of the harshest restrictions on Paladins and many PC’s inflict it on themselves

[@pickpocketpressrpgvideos6655]

Is starting Morale = Charisma? Is that right, because what if the PC has 13 Cha? Then the Morale check is 2d6? Super interesting video, thank you for doing it!

[@ForeverYoungKickboxer]

Morale doesnt equal Charisma, but is modified by it, if you a have high or low score

[@BanditsKeep]

It’s based on CHA - not equal to, there is a chart

[@pickpocketpressrpgvideos6655]

Ah thank you!@@ForeverYoungKickboxer

[@pickpocketpressrpgvideos6655]

Right gotcha cheers@@BanditsKeep

[@CaptCook999]

Besides the chart and charisma bonuses, it is based on treatment and rewards. So healing a wounded retainer or giving them more/better treasure will give you bonuses. Evil parties would work through fear for better loyalty, which really wouldn't work too well when you think about it.

[@solohelion]

How would you handle wardogs?

[@BanditsKeep]

They would have a morale score modified by how they were trained. And then treated by the party

[@SusCalvin]

@@BanditsKeep One of my frends required a roll to activate and command the dogs. Influenced both by your charisma and how well-trained the dog was. Dogs are never as clever as a humanoid goon and sometimes acted in weird ways. If the expediton has a large amount of animals, including wardogs and horses and elephants etc, they will need to hire people specifically to look after them. I've ruled that the PCs can handle one or two animals themselves in the field, brush them and pet them and feed them etc. After three animals per PC, they might need to get a hireling animal tender.

[@solohelion]

@@BanditsKeep so basically as regular hirelings, plus a training modifier - check at the end of an encounter, check after each adventure, etc. - or as a monster/NPC? First casualty, half health - check vs route.

[@Theotherlostprimarch]

In my imagination a higher level hireling would look at a job offered by a lower level party as a plum job. They still get half the take, and the amount of danger a low level party can get them into vs a higher level group should be significantly less.

[@BanditsKeep]

Would you as an experienced adventurer want to go out with green adventures? I certainly wouldn’t.

[@SusCalvin]

@@BanditsKeep Sometimes people with equal or greater level than us have entered partnerships instead of employment. We have one dude who showed up with a map to a dungeon, looked for partners and agreed to join efforts with us to explore the place. But since she is no mere follower, she expects a full share of any proceeds and to be treated like an equal stakeholder in the venture. But on the other hand, she has done a lot of groundwork herself and is an extremely competent and well-equipped thief willing to do more than an average spear-carrier.

[@jeremymullens7167]

By the book your not supposed to. Henchmen were assumed to be down on their luck so while a higher level may be possible. They would only stick around long enough to get on their feet. Basically 1 adventure.

[@SusCalvin]

@@jeremymullens7167 I should start using the morale roll to see if they stick around. It's possible that one stays around for expedition after expedition, or leaves after a single one. In a campaign game it doesn't mean they're out of play. A former hench that took a job in town can still be found there and can definitely be on good terms with the bums even if they refuse to go adventuring. You could recruit the same bloke again later on.

[@ryanoneill1837]

Dumb question. If blacksmith, scribe, armorer etc are "Expert Hireling", then why is a mason listed as a basic hireling. And where is the Carpenter? Basic or Expert Hireling? Just an observation that has had me curious for a long time. Generally, Masons were regarded as more expert than blacksmiths or carpenters.

[@BanditsKeep]

As I was not part of the writing or editing process, I cannot answer that for you.

[@ryanoneill1837]

Fair Enough! LOL @@BanditsKeep

[@CaptCook999]

The "mason" listed there may refer to a bricklayer and not a "stone mason" who carves stone. Carpenters would be the same as skilled labor. You're not hiring artisans just laborers who are skilled. Artisans would be adjudicated by the DM if not listed or you could both chat and work something out.

[@ryanoneill1837]

@@CaptCook999 I went back and reread it, carpenters are listed. I think you are probably right as these being more commoner skilled that artisan. Makes the most sense anyway. Thanks!

[@denisnadeau865]

I've been dividing xp just like you do since the 80s. My players like henchmen. But most players I had almost never hire mercenaries and are reluctant to pay specialits. They prefer using specialists who ow them a favor. Can't remember the last time a pc bought an npc a drink to get infos or gave bribes to get something.

[@BanditsKeep]

It’s always nice to be owed favors!

[@SusCalvin]

In Esoteric Enterprises you all play members of the occult-criminal underworld. This makes it hard to just buy stuff and hire goons. You have to spend a little downtime activity to find someone that can be vouched for. This includes the process to hire an armed guard for their home base, finding a seller of illegal explosives or a dude who can identify what a scroll says or crack a lock for them. Going to a black clinic where they won't ask why you show up at two in the night with two gunshot wounds is a standard process. And when you have found a guy you can trust and vouch for, why not keep giving that dude work and develop them into a regular contact. Then you can just show up at their door the next time you have a werewolf claw wound at two in the night.

[@patricktierney4392]

The maps are great, but don't forget, it's per map, not per month.

[@BanditsKeep]

Not sure I follow

[@patricktierney4392]

@@BanditsKeep Your sponsor, they charge by the download, and not by the month. I didn't realize and got charged for downloading 4 of the $5 level map packs.

[@BanditsKeep]

@@patricktierney4392 this I was unaware of, I will make note of that.

[@patricktierney4392]

@@BanditsKeep Super nice maps though. My group really enjoyed using them.

[@akoster131]

Et tu, Brutus?

[@BanditsKeep]

🗡️

[@EdvandoFilho]

"Higher level characters wont work for lower level ones" How do you justify people knowing that in world? Is it easy to identify that a person is higher/lower lvl them you?

[@someguy403]

It's basically the same way people in real life can tell when others are more or less experienced in something than themselves. Just look at veterans, most will easily be able to tell apart new recruits from other veterans even without uniforms/ranks. Not only will the higher level characters have better quality weapons, armor, clothing, etc but they will carry themselves differently as well compared to 0 level or level 1 characters.

[@CMacK1294]

@@someguy403 Plus, as characters advance they tend to develop in station, reputation and myth.

[@BanditsKeep]

Of course, reputation

[@someguy403]

yes, exactly. A character isnt just a level 4 fighter, they are a "hero" and will have had to have gained at least some renown in various locations in order to achieve that title.@@CMacK1294

[@SusCalvin]

In WFRP you spot them because they look like experienced landsknechts. Dudes swaggering around with scars, expensive weapons and armour, nice clothes in evocative cuts and colours, way better hats. And after a few careers, this is also how your adventurers will look. All the way up until you start to bump against sumptuary laws.

[@krispalermo8133]

7:00 ,, .." No n/pc will work for a PC of a lower character class level than them. " Other than 3e multiclassing a rogue2/cleric2 CR4 with 10ranks in Diplomacy or Bluff. Or AD&D a noble being a 1st-level fighter or rogue with Etiquette/charisma roll. As for Xp award per Gp value of said item, silver cup worth 5gp/50silver pieces or 5xp. Well, I just rustle a herd of two dozen sheep worth 5gp per head. Does my PC gain 150xp after selling them ? How about night rustling a dozen horses at night denying the enemy their transport ?

[@BanditsKeep]

I would imagine a higher level character in disguise could pretend to work for a PC but have other motivations. As far as stealing of sheep, I would certainly award XP for that - though it would probably only happen in campaigns where the party played bandits or outlaws. Otherwise it would make little sense for adventures to do that. Stealing and selling horses of your enemies is for sure worth XP - the horses are part of their treasure.

[@krispalermo8133]

@@BanditsKeep History of Scotland highlander clan blood feuds were all about livestock rustling. Shakespear's that prince of Demark, " to be or not to be." .. Hamlet. Well at that time, nobles of the north consider ship raiding/ piratic was a high art form. Captain Robbert Drake head founder of the British Order of Pyrite/ order of Fire. Their current slang for brotherhood of fire, brotherhood of pirate in common tongue. Other than fantasy adventure stories, historic British civil wars other than honor or religion were mostly over food/cattle raids. Along with the whole concept of a band of knights, they were mostly young men that didn't inherit titles/lands so they took up mercenary work/banditry. D&D started off as a spinoff of pulp fiction sword & fantasy adventures, then took a hard turn somewhere off into lala land. b.) Been in way too many games over the years with different group and TSR random result charts and others. Your horses got killed, so did your hire carriers and back up, lost of supplies and equipment. Left for broke, ... unless the 8th-level fighter is going to mug a 3rd-level rogue merchant, you work for who has the money and extra protection. Not forgetting pre- WotC, hp healing took forever in any game system, and many systems had hp penalty dmg effects. Such as limps and broken bone dmg. Seen a YT video of a US Texas " sheep " rancher. The herder wears a long jacket that looks very much like padded over coat seen on the series Game of Thrones. The jacket holds metal plates, cause he already got broken ribs and fracture hip from stud ram's head bunts. The rams also killed a couple of his dogs and over a dozen coyotes. Once a male sheep is raised to aggressive full protective adult hood. Rams charge attacks are to drive off or kill anything that comes near their females. As junior high school teenagers, read through D&D and us children wonder why Rams had an Xp value while sheep only had a 10sp/1gp/ xp value ? When AD&D2ndE came out, its monster manual had both a xp value for sheep and rams. c.) Low adventure or high difficulty ? An army moves on its stomach, the PC have to pillage/ commandery five dozen sheep to feed your section of troops. Many people don't want to give up their livestock and will chase you down in numbers to reclaim their winter food. Moral problem, the siege fighters need daily food now, but if you take from the local peasants then half will starve this winter. But if the fighters are defeated by food exhaustion and killed by the invaders. Everyone of the locals will die. 3.) Anyway, thank you for your time.

[@SusCalvin]

@@BanditsKeep In Birthright, the domain play game for 2e that came at the tail end of TSR, your level starts to matter less and less. A lot of your power becomes institutional, the duchy doesn't dissolve because the heir is just a level 3 when they claim the throne. There's an entirely different mechanic for how close to the gods your bloodline is. And that improves generation to generation. A dude can have a strong divine bloodline in their family but have an abysmal level. Sometimes the rules deliberately rule out xp from "honest work" and common banditry. If the PCs gained xp from stealing sheep, they would become cattle thieves instead of going to a dungeon. But in a game where you are bandits or urban rogues, that sort of dispensaton is partly waived and you get xp for rogueish stuff like a heist against the baron. Anything Fafrd and the Grey Mouser would do, basically. Sometimes the no cattle-rustling rule remains in place. Fafrd and Grey Mouser didn't fill books with how they carefully ran a pyramid scheme to ruin the farmers' insurance bank.

[@krispalermo8133]

@@SusCalvin Thank you, .. but sorry, my past two gaming shops from 1997 to 2011 always rewrites Brightright kings more in line with Europe cultures, such as the Hun/Russian step, and Mongolians with horse raiding orcs. Or from the Protestant Wars in Germany and Scotland/England boarder. There is a Viking joke in that. It has been a couple of years since I watched anything about Birthright, and been 16years since I debated the box set at the local gaming shop back in 2007. Also debate/argue it 1997 at my first gaming shop when I was twenty years old during 2e. Then WotC came out and we really broke the style concept with 3e multiclassing rules. Excuse being Star Wars: Rebel Era source book. Character with zero bloody battle fist fights, never been in a gun fight let alone a real fist fight, but and run up to you and grab your jaw, cause they play racket ball. WotC3e Star Wars created high level n/pc with skills tied to their profession. Being a bunch of 30 year ish nerds, we were a generation that grew up on war movies, cowboy western series like Gun Smoke, Raw Hide. Of coarse we were going to play " Dead Lands," horror western steam punk coming out of the US Civil War. The cattle baron wars over grazing rights and moving herds was no different than any other European nation that had such practice. The Huns, the Russian step tribes/Mongolia empire was all about raid ride by shooting and taking cattle. Or killing it far way enough from nearby settlements so the meat will rot. Then again why would a cavalry raider bother to climb down into some cave creases looking for bandit/ bootleggers /religious fanatics hideouts. Scotland/British boarder wars were all about stealing cattle and burning grain towers to starve the other noble lords people into summitting to foreign rule and taxation. Classic European fantasy romanization of the under hand political brutality of people during that time frame. History has been whitewash. Then came along Pulp Era fiction leading into current rpg fiction. 2.) So sorry, I could never get into " Grey Mouser, " as a young teenager, and the YT book reviews doesn't do it for me. I am Sicilian/German and I always found to be more interesting in history of the Italian city state aristocrat republics. Assassin Creed even made a video game about it. Honestly Italians have always been c4reative at murdering each other. 3.) Thank you again for bring up Brightright, it jug the memory of dozens of people trying to cram the most multiclasses to create the skill ranking set matching their favorite concept arch type.

[@SusCalvin]

@@krispalermo8133 The region you got out of the basic box in Birthright was Anuire, so I guess most people would have played their first game in fantasy France. They managed to release some more modules for different regions and specific realm before WotC closed the line. Class level mattered less in Birthright. A high-level fighter being personally good with spears and owning a rare magical +2 spear matters less when battles are fought between armies numbering thousands. Wizards and clerics are only important if their spell can cover 50 people. A level 1 cleric using Bless was more important than a level 1 wizard with Charm and Sleep. Or if your magic could change the square a company stood on using illusions or stone to mud. I know people who play the game now and barely count what level their PCs are. Birthright was set after the breakup of a larger empire. All the little dukes and barons and free cities etc are feuding over who gets to take the next shot at creating a lasting empire. I think Birthright was intended as the PCs running a little duchy together, with one dude playing the duchess, two playing high priests of the local faiths, one playing the guildmaster representing the largest city and a couple others playing advisors and high-level goons. Deadlands was funky dark western. All I remember is that magic and undead gunslingers were lurking just beyond view of normal society in a divided America. They had a magic system where you drew a poker hand against the DM or something.

[@sevenbastard]

I didn’t read all the coments to see if this was brought up but B2 Keep on the Boardelands has specific rules for how much XP is split with NPCs.

[@BanditsKeep]

I’ll have to check that out, I wonder how different they are from BX

[@sgtbigballs666]

We generally play with 2-3 pc's so i always give some npcs for the party, they get a full share but theyll never leave, my players know what happens if they mistreat an npc party member 🤔 Haha low magic, spell casters can be very overpowered, theyre just difficult to play if you dont know what youre doing

[@BanditsKeep]

Indeed

[@SusCalvin]

One of the scariest encounters in Esoteric was a nerd with Shield. The guy and his pals heard the PCs start to break down the door, so the first thing he did was to raise it on himself. They run in and easily whack his friends, but now there was a dude with absurdly high AC taking potshots at them with a pistol the entire time, yelling for more cultists to help. No one is a happy camper the first time a giggling goblin shaman tosses Sleep at them. We found out that it was a secondary use for a lot of goons... Sleep targets people with low HD first. All the wardogs and all the goons had less HD than the PCs, and dropped first from the spell.