Retro Review: 1985 Saab 900 Turbo 16

That paint quality looks top notch! RIP Saab.

[@jdonns2221]

These were real Saabs. I'd buy one right now if I could

[@CarDietrich]

I wish I could buy one of these brand new today. I have a 1985 900S notchback now with 336k miles on it though, I'll have to settle for that ;)

[@philliplyn2692]

True facts would love to get my hands on one of 🙏🙏🙏🇯🇲🇯🇲🇯🇲💪💪💪

[@dqwaszx]

GM should be placed on trial for the murder of Saab.

[@jayyoutube8790]

dqwaszx yes.. Cause making such an ugly car is a crime!! 😂

[@ziginox]

Don't forget Isuzu! (And Suzuki too, I guess...)

[@tjfreak]

Triple homicide.. Pontiac,Oldsmobile,Saab & extreme negligence for keeping Buick.

[@kgbeezr75]

@Tjfreak Right? It's interesting they killed Pontiac and kept Buick. Up until a few years ago you had to show your Medicare card to a Buick dealership before they would even let you test drive one.

[@jamesp504]

kgbeezr75 Buick is the best selling car in China. They look at Buick how we see Rolls Royce. The Buick GL8 is essentially a Chevy Venture, and they pay top dollar for it. Pontiac was profitable to North America, but because Buick is so wildly popular in China, they kept it instead.

[@mylexicon2]

The Saab 900 is basically the 911 of sedans. It's a timeless icon. I'm not quite sure how it's gone.

[@thegoldendog7991]

GM wanted Saab to utilize GM components, Saab refused feeling them inferior. Costs went up while sales declined. The rest is history.

[@eemelih5052]

But, old saab cars never die. Gonna sell my nissan micra and buy saab in next spring.

[@user-qx7tm5df8j]

gm

[@andyleo8418]

@@eemelih5052 Have fun finding parts and repairing that thing.

[@eemelih5052]

@@andyleo8418 I ended up to buy volvo 240 wagon. Saab does not have wagon that is old enough to me, and volvo is rwd and bit better looking IMO so that why I bought it. But finding parts to saab here in finland is not a problem, because there are so many of them (and some of them are made in here) But, when I have finished school and have work I need another car that have bigger trailer towing capacity and then my choice is Saab 9000.

[@mitshumarner5870]

I wish they still made this car. Despite most cars now having turbos for economy reasons, the Saab 900 Turbo whined a lovely turbo song when she ran.

[@supafrancis]

You should've driven a 88'-93' Turbo with the boost turned up... Wanna talk about a turbo song, those cars when tuned properly went from 165hp to an easy 225hp. My 88' 900T SPG with a tuned Turbo would scream heavy metal. 20 years later, people in my town still know me as the guy with the crimson Saab. Thing was the quickest car around and the best looking as well

[@skylinefever]

Sometimes when you replace the convoluted intake piping with a cold air intake, it is easier to hear the turbo whine.

[@CardboardSliver]

I have an 84 and a 92. The 84 is a 8vT, and the 92 is a 16vT.

[@craig2469]

Sure did. I remember that whining type sound of the turbo when I was a kid. My parents had a white 1985 900 turbo coupe with a black rubbery looking spoiler. Really nice car. Even had the rear window outside shade that said Saab on the sides.

[@NBx12]

@@supafrancis Had an '87 900T with the red box APC, 5 speed, and an alcohol/water sprayed intercooler. Damned thing was BLAST to drive and would haul a couch without even blinking. And those TooFastTooStupid Hondas - seeee yaaaaa! I miss that damned car

[@JossRickard]

"Locomotive like stability of the Saab" *Hopping through the corner on three wheels*

[@tzamahd]

"most folks either love, or love to hate" such honest review

[@Emppu_T.]

Only a sith believes in absolutes

[@1largelaw]

I ordered a black 900 Turbo in 1984 with burgandy cloth seats. I loved that car. I routinely purchase new Mercedes sedans now but my heart always is with that Saab.

[@RoadCone411]

Count me as being in the group that always liked old Saabs from this era! They were counter-culture to the BMWs and Audis of the day, but that's okay - their performance and safety always outweighed their nagging faults and odd looks. That gem of a 16v engine was a rarity in 1985...oh how far we have come! I happened to like the progressive, evolutionary styling of the car, and that dashboard is a model in efficiency for simple, functional elegance. My friend's mom had a 1986 Saab 900 sedan and, of course, it was virtually identical to the cars on the video except for the color. Not the roomiest car but what it may have lacked in space it made up for with superior seating that was always comfortable front and back. This was definitely a premium car, despite having cloth seats. However, those cloth seats were heated at the front, a rarity even today! Not so good points about the Saab were the inevitable service costs - one time, I remember the wiper wash bottle developed a leak and it was an expensive replacement (several hundred $$$), mostly because of its odd-shape designed to fit in a small space against the front fender. When the a/c stopped working, out of warranty, it was a $2000 fix in 1991 money...ouch!

[@bh2155]

I wish I was old enough back in the eighties and nineties to own a car back then. When I was a kid I always wanted a SAAB. Cars were so unique and cool back then.

[@BurtSampson]

Damn, keeping that body roll in check. Really impressive compared to most of the test videos you guys post from this era. Most of the cars back then wallowed around like a ship in heavy seas.

[@patpuang8863]

Yeah I noticed the same. Such a masterpiece in handling

[@VARITHMS]

GM is hospice for auto makers.

[@TurboMan942]

This 80's video, with the empty suitcases, and secret compartments, makes it look like Craig Singhaus is heading down to Miami to pick up some premium coke from the Cubans.

[@FiftyfourhundredWatt]

My first car was a 1978 Saab 99 turbo. I started driving in 1993 and my father bought me my first car. I got the Saab for under $1000 and was a great car throughout my high school years. I remember my dad was shocked and financially thankful I didn't want a Mustang or Camaro like most of my peers at the time. The appeal of the Saab was that it was just so different. The front opening hood, curved windshield, and of course turbo were the main selling points. I will always remember my Saab fondly.

[@LoveMyZJ]

I miss Saab :(

[@Ithinkiwill66]

Just like Johnn missing a voltmeter! 🤣😳😳

[@bodybyfisher44]

Me too

[@mlee6136]

I was in college when I saw my first 900, it was a turbo convertible in red. It was captivating and looked expensive, still picture it clearly 30yrs later 😅

[@mipmipmipmipmip]

rear underfloor compartment in 1985, it took other brands up to 30 years to catch up on that...

[@vladislavstanimirovic9650]

well not really, yugo and fiat had that in 1988, but l do get what you wanna say. what l like even more is the handle on the underside of the trunk door, the way the hood opens, the engine and gearbox position... this car, although not too competitive with styling, was years ahead with the engineering. also, a roll cage? l don't think any of today's cars have that

[@hueleb1cho]

only other car from the period i know had that was the mercedes 260E (just bought one as a resto project)

[@perpelle]

Disagree. I know several cars that had it in the 80's and 90's. Porsche 924 from -78 for example. Transaxle and therefor a high floor but with loads of storage under.

[@Mgoblagulkablong]

3:12 Turbo just kicked in yo!

[@mantriccaravan8228]

Ive had the pleasure of owning 3-4 of these are cars not all turbos 16's but classic 900's and I dearly miss them. Ive owned Mercedes, Honda, BMW and plenty of Volvo's but the Saabs Ill always remember as simply awesome Swedish beauties!

[@danbernstein4694]

I had 2. I kept the 1990 for 11 years, and it was still in great shape when I sold it.

[@haardkaar]

I like how all the motoring shows and programmes claim the SAAB 900 (and Volvo 240 being old), in the mid 80's. They both held on until 1993. Two motoring icons nonetheless.

[@misamisatv]

I loved 3:10 when the rear wheel left the ground! :D

[@SergeKulyk]

"locomotive-like stability"

[@ThePlaysnice]

misa

[@hazzaknox1069]

Is some motorweek retro freak knows where that corner is then PLEASE TELL ME cause I am gonna rip hell round it

[@Emppu_T.]

@@SergeKulyk it won't slide about and the steering is sturdy and accurate, you'll know when you drive one

[@SergeKulyk]

@@Emppu_T. I've owned 2

[@garbage854]

I always liked Saab's :) wish they still made and sold them here .

[@leftpastsaturn67]

Was lucky enough to own two of those, probably still my favourite car... now on my 7th SAAB & won't be changing brands anytime soon. Great to see this review.

[@kwhite145]

Dont worry about slippery seats it has a sun roof!

[@bobjohnson205]

A quick acting sunroof! lol

[@lexburen5932]

saab 900 turbo is today a very aprecciated classic, and good ones are expensive in europe. i really like the interior, and the design overall. so different, it looks good even today :)

[@Emppu_T.]

It's very iconic!

[@jannevaatainen]

"Small 2 litre engines..." xD Oh, you mmericans.

[@MaximilianvonPinneberg]

True, in Europe, 2 litres was a large executive car. Never mind a Turbo.

[@Lucille69caddy]

Janne Väätäinen Oh you, whatever the fuck you are😳😆

[@furgusuned15650]

I never really thought of that, I suppose it is quite funny when put into that context Haha. I suppose the opposite would be true for Americans saying that 4.0 litres would be a smaller/midsize engine

[@user-tb7rn1il3q]

2 liter turbos are considered upgraded engines nowadays even in the USA

[@rosaphilosoph]

Big block 472 Yeah! Make Detroit great again!

[@johneldorado]

These were gorgeous cars.

[@victoralexander848]

it's amazing how saab took the triump TR7 engine with a toledo gearbox and perfected it. something leyland could never do. It was so unbelievable to convince people that this is the same engine that british leyland could never get right i also had a triump TR7 every time it broke down i use to scream why can't triump get that engine right like saab has

[@alastair9894]

That's because Leyland workers were playing cards or skiving all day.

[@victoralexander848]

@@alastair9894 Lol🤣🤣

[@quackman]

"How does the Saab handle everyday driving?" "With class, thank you."

[@gray_space_alien]

A friend of mine had one of these brand new. We all kinda thought it was pretty funny looking. And then we drove it a few times and understood what he liked about it, handling was fantastic. Great to ride in as well. But a little expensive for the rest of us.

[@26Vincent26]

What a car! Even today

[@DavidAndre657]

That paint quality looks top notch! R.I.P. Saab.

[@markb3756]

It really does! So glossy.

[@shawnl1155]

@@markb3756 Those old oil based paints were top notch!

[@SabreLilly.]

My dad had one of these when I was a kid. I thought it was the fastest car in the world at the time

[@mipmipmipmipmip]

did he wear fitting sunglasses like the guy at 4:57?

[@SabreLilly.]

No, but I'm pretty sure he had that same jacket

[@dawge30]

Thank you so much for posting. I had a 1982 900 4-door as my first car, and a 3-door 1984 900S as my second. Man, I miss them...

[@bobjohnson205]

Buy a new one! lol

[@dawge30]

Bob Johnson my co-worker has my second Saab at his house, been sitting for 14 years! Thanks for commenting.

[@bobjohnson205]

@Joe My first car was a '74 Volvo 142, my second was a '77 264GL, my third was an '86 240GL and my fourth is a '90 740GL. As far as I know the first three are gone, but my '90 is in mint condition and going strong. Hard to beat Swedish design & engineering.

[@JoseMartinez-jw2dy]

First time owner of a 1986 I'm excited can't wait to drive it

[@Emppu_T.]

Sidenote: I like the sounds of the raughty exhaust and even the gas struts of the rear hatch. So memorable

[@eightosaurusspelunk1598]

Saabs are awesome

[@markmayfield2228]

My parents had an 87 and an 88 900 4 door. Both were great cars. My mom's 87 plowed into the side of a 1 ton crewcab pickup that tried to cross a road right in front of her. The pickup spun around 360 and landed into the ditch on the opposite side of the road. My mom's car crumpled up like a soda can without penetrating the cabin. The engine went under the cabin just like it was designed to. She broke her hand and bent the steering wheel. She was able to walk away from it, albeit a might bit sore. Any lesser car might've meant the end of her. The 900 handled the road like a champ. You could really feel the g's in the turns, and the stock Pirelli tires gripped the road like glue.

[@SomethingFunny454]

How are slippery seats fixed by a fast moving sunroof?

[@nlpnt]

I suspect because leather and sunroof were a package deal, the sunroof made the package more appealing even if the leather had its' drawbacks vs the standard cloth.

[@nlpnt]

I'd thought bundled options. If so they were unbundled the next year since the '86 that Regular Car Reviews drove had a factory-looking sunroof and cloth seats. Then again, that one could've had its' seats replaced at some point.

[@notroll1279]

If resin from trees trickles in through the sunroof, the seats will get nicely sticky...

[@nobrainz00]

You can hold on to thesunroof opening to stabilize yourself in a corner

[@patricknesbitt4003]

The bilateral downforces from the wind inrush through the open sunroof counteract the negative antifriction slip factor of the leather's stiction coefficient. Or something.

[@TheNumber86]

4 door versions of those are a bit hard to get into and out of. The doors are small. Upside to that is that you can open the door more when you're parked.

[@theclear33]

I wish we could buy eccentric design cars like this today instead of those look alike boxes we find in dealerships

[@Trance88]

I like this car a lot! Very cool and unique for the time.

[@magnavox4794]

Retro Reviews are 2 cool. Had to subscribe. Will be very sad when they're all gone.

[@TheBTG88]

Love my 1991 SPG

[@mfnd502]

One of the best cars ever made.

[@skylinefever]

Some people have told me they are as tough as a Volvo brick.

[@gxdjoeybaby07]

that leather looks pretty nice--even if it's slippery! glad the spg showed up looking a little more finished than it did here =)

[@ckm-mkc]

Had one of these in high-school, it was an awesome car. After I got it, pretty much everyone wanted one. No, I didn't get it from my parents, bought it for 3k used.

[@hueleb1cho]

MY PRAYERS ON THE LAST VID WERE ANSWERED THANK YOUUUU

[@mipmipmipmipmip]

also, today NEVS who bought the Saab assets announced a new 9-3

[@garbage854]

Cool :)

[@tadficuscactus]

mipmipmipmipmip mean! so Saab is alive again? will it be designed in Sweden?

[@tadficuscactus]

hopefully designed and built in Sweden but that is probably much to ask for.

[@garbage854]

Yeah

[@GalenlevyPhoto]

My friends dad had the ‘86 900 turbo. Finally died at 320k miles on it. I rode in it a few times, pretty fast car for its time and also rode in early 90s Saab convertible.

[@timevans5966]

I wish it were 1985 again and I could afford this

[@sbauroth]

God I miss my old "86 Saab 900

[@MrHubb1]

I love the styling inside and out

[@jacobyo99]

Motorweek should start doing sound decibel tests again

[@edim108]

You know what's impressive? It was a DOHC, 16V, Turbocharged Inline 4 2.0 in the mid-'80s. It was basically Sports Car technology at the time, especially on the US market that was just going out of the Malaize Era. It was years ahead of its European competition and a solid DECADE ahead of pretty much everything Detroit made at the time. The OG 900 was a Fantastic car! It's sad that decades later poor management and GM's Idiotic decisions killed Saab as a car manufacturer. What's even sadder is that we probably will never see Saab as a car brand- Saab Group (the aeroplane manufacturer) refuses to allow the use of "Saab" name for Car production.

[@far574]

I had 5 SAABS. Loved them.

[@ryankenyon1996]

What is his obsession with voltage and oil pressure gauges? Every review!

[@yellowhammer3]

ryan kenyon they were important back then

[@TurboMan942]

ryan kenyon no kidding, but no complaints that the cars had zero cup holders. Apparently in the 80's, you held your drink in your car and stared at the oil pressure gauge.

[@PandaPi123]

ryan kenyon I also like it and I don’t know why?

[@PrinssiFO]

It tells you the condition of the battery and alternator and engine oil pressure. Many new cars don't even inform you of the coolant temperature anymore. I like to be informed about the condition of my car, but I guess people don't care anymore.

[@algernonilfracombe]

Basically since engines have become more reliable the manufacturers think customers don't care much about what the pressure/ voltage/ flow-through is unless there's actually a fault (in which case a little light goes on which most people still don't even understand anyway?), whereas in the seventies/eighties you really did want to know if your car was about to go wrong, because it would be far more likely to jam up in the first place and most people didn't have a cell phone to call for help... but what the hell, I still like to know what my car's doing anyway.

[@talonleevon7929]

I actually liked my Saab. Didn't have it long and forgot how and where I got it...head gasket got me.

[@joshkindu3063]

I was thinking about getting me a 9-3ss, but honestly I really want to feel what this baby has to offer!

[@dashriprock3468]

I've owned 6 Saabs, 1985 thru 2002, and loved them all. Had virtually zero problems with any of them, but they were all 5 speeds...stay away from the automatics. These were well built, unique, yet simple cars...I really miss them. GM totally fucked up Saab by trying to sell 500,000 per year by turning them into Chevys for mainstream America. They succeeded only in alienating the Saab loyalists and hence killing the brand.

[@notroll1279]

I've got a 2001 9-5 2.3t with the older 4 gear automatic. Works fine and is said to be pretty bullet-proof. I think the mark I 9-5 had more SAAB design elements than the 9000 that preceded it and the 2.3 engine was still a SAAB developed one. My mechanic told me that the exhaust mounts and other small parts were taken from the GM parts shelf but that really doesn't matter to me as long as everything safety related and the key mechanical components are SAAB designed.

[@AIRDRAC]

@@notroll1279 As a person that has owned both a 900 (1984 900 GL), two different 9000s (1991 9000 CD 2.3 16v and 1996 9000 Aero Hirsch level 3) and a first gen 9-5, I'd choose the 9000 over the 9-5 any day. While the interior in the 9-5 certainly evolved for the better from the 9000, the car in general lost a lot of that "Saab personality" along with most of the sportier handling and road feel. The 9-5 is still a great car, but the 9000 (and especially the 9000 Aero) was a far more fun car to drive, while still being docile enough for anyone to be able to drive it in a normal setting. The 9-5 was too docile and soft for my taste, and the gearing for the non-Aero manual 5-speed was too long. Plus that while the interior design was much better, the interior quality was quite a bit worse, with many buttons wearing off their legends, and displays giving out, which never happened in my 9000s, along with the seats wearing out quicker.

[@notroll1279]

@@AIRDRAC I like the 9000 a lot, too, but here in Germany, only very few good ones were left when I was in the market... and that was 8 years ago...

[@AIRDRAC]

@@notroll1279 Yeah, the only place you can get them now is through the local Saab clubs. They're almost completely gone from the normal used car market.

[@mipmipmipmipmip]

3:10 nice cornering work!

[@markb3756]

The leather on the seats looks more durable and expensive than most genuine leather couches I've seen. That burgandy/red color with the saddle interior is the bomb!

[@orange70383]

This was typical motorweek in the 80's.

[@Matt_Dagostino]

My neighbor used to have one of these. I thought it was ugly at the time, but I'd buy it from him in a heartbeat now

[@christopherconard2831]

"Won't shake its tail loose" Promptly lifts rear wheel while cornering. But it is FWD, so it doesn't really matter.

[@aleksanderkjrsteig28]

he meant it wont oversteer ;)

[@CardboardSliver]

But he was driving a 900 the way it should be driven. Nice and hard!

[@ronaldderooij1774]

The most comfy car I ever had. You could drive 1000 miles in it in one day without getting tired. But, the running costs were terrible. it was NOT reliable. My family owned two without turbo and one with turbo. They were all three extremely unreliable. The turbo even got two new engines under warranty.

[@beb1527]

Ronald de Rooij My 1981 900 Turbo had problems with just about everything. Bought it used in 1987 for $4500. By the time I sold it in 1989, I had put $5500 into it on repairs.

[@Emppu_T.]

Interesting, our '93 has been pretty cheap to maintain. Apart from the elec windows znd once the gearkever got stuck. Perhaps they almost perfected it before the gm model

[@gregorycasey7358]

My friend had one that was his pride and joy.Just thought the world of it. I always thought the older ones like this was the best Saab’s they build.

[@skylinefever]

I'm surprised that they didn't mention the bizarre transaxle that is found in that generation of SAAB 900. Everything is either backwards or sideways of where it usually is in most cars.

[@magnavox4794]

Is this the car that I can never remember has equal length axles?

[@skylinefever]

There are a few cars that have equal length axles and the SAAB 900 is one of them.

[@aaronbays4]

Yup, water pump, alternator, etc are up against the firewall. Engine sits North to South but is FWD. Transmission sits in front of the engine, flywheel is facing the front bumper/radiator. Its like they designed a RWD car, then flipped all the mechanicals backwards and made it FWD lol

[@Emppu_T.]

They minimised torque steer with their peculiar layout

[@tommyholden602]

I still have a 2005 9-3 Convertible and it's not going away anytime soon.

[@markb3756]

I almost got one before I got the car I have now. It was a 2006 I believe with 60,xxx miles. Light icy blue color with a black top I believe. Kinda wish I had gotten it now. 😕

[@philliplyn2692]

Still love this car saab one of my favorite if you have one it's a keeper thanks for sharing very important information giving blessed love to all knowledge is power hopefully everyone pays attention keep up the good work 🙏🙏🙏🇯🇲🇯🇲🇯🇲💪💪💪

[@waltertaljaard1488]

In its day probably the best car you could buy.

[@shanet7511]

I've never been a Saab fan but that's quite an impressive car for 85

[@patrickstonetree1]

My mom totalled a Saab convertible with a 5. Man I loved that car.

[@svenburns9069]

I worked as a mechanic at a Saab shop in the early 80ies here in Linkoping Sweden. I had a 79 8 valv turbo 900 it sure could move too. I saw the first model of the Saab 900 S and the 9000 too. After GM bought Saab it was downhill for sure and the final nail in the coffin was hammered in by a Swedish completely f..ed up politichian Maud Olosson. The freaking corona land came and took factories apart and shipped it home. Oh well they where good cars I had a few of them.

[@jamesm654]

Still one of my favorite cars of all time

[@CardboardSliver]

I love how everyone thinks SPG means "Special Performance Group", when Saab actually said it's Sports PackaGe" But Saab aknowlaged SPG also being that because why not. I mean, better aero, taller gearbox, better suspension, fatter tyres, and 145mph speedo.

[@enricofumi8072]

the last proper saab, my uncle had one and i still fondly remember it. if you think it was contemporary to the fiat 132!

[@willzer808]

I'm subscribed to motorweek because it is fucking super

[@eklektikTechno]

Just seeing this episode from 1985 is more interesting then the 900 itself :)

[@LUISDACOS]

love this reviews thanks

[@medianexchanges]

get one if you can and hold on to it forever

[@jpadicecoffee9812]

This car stills looks great in person, especially in white. And this video, still mentioned the missing voltmeter.

[@mikep3412]

Loved these cars

[@Ithinkiwill66]

Took that wheel right off the road....a little too happy! 😁😁😆😆😄😄

[@TheBandit7613]

Vail Colorado used these as cop cars. They do well in snow with good winter tires.

[@DefWun]

I had to change a Blower Motor in one of these.What a pain in the Ass it was.Cool Car though.

[@graces41]

I loved the humming

[@CEOkiller]

I had a ‘88 900S in this color combination and still regret selling it!

[@crs9557]

Both an oil pressure and voltmeter gauge were available as dealer-installed options. This car just wasn't optioned out.

[@thatoldschoolvolvoguy5012]

not a Volvo but still Swedish so I'll give a like.

[@fergusfox7056]

for Scandinavia!

[@TheVagolfer]

I had a Saab 900 SPG for years..Not the fastest, not the prettiest, but reliable and fun, what more do you want?

[@Jgeneraledger23]

1:53-1:55 impressive handling

[@TrisGV]

Saab is the best, do you guys have a review for the 900 convertible?

[@electricdiesel1993]

Saab was Scania (hence the Griffin) came with a turbocharger made with turbine jets from a Saab aircraft and an exposed intercooler mounted on the radiator, and should require an AWD as a rally sport coupe.

[@donaldhollums3278]

What a strategy by good ole GM! Purchase an ever unique, but struggling car company with the guise of saving it, but instead ruin the car company further and put it out of business! “There, we got rid of that competitor!” I sure am glad Ford was smart enough to get out of the way of Aston-Martin and not put that company out of business!

[@alexsaab8089]

when the said turbo16 I thought they were referring to the SPG. Swedish pick up truck

[@frankdenardo8684]

the hood on this car is the same design used on the Buick park avenue and LeSabre from the mid 1980's.

[@ek1414_]

Great car!

[@alundrasrt]

Oil pressure gauge?

[@svenburns9069]

I had a bluemetallic 1979 Saab 8 valve turbo, it could move too. The waistgate valve broke on it and man it got insane but I had to fix it or the motor would have exploded lol

[@justsumguy2u]

Everyone loves a good MW Retro Review. But my, how times have changed when it comes to performance. The Saab's 9.3 second 0-60 run was considered brisk back then---nowadays, even econoboxes and pickup trucks are quicker than that.