Retrospective: From the Ashes

[@GreyhawkGrognard]

You can buy From the Ashes here (affiliate link): tinyurl.com/4xz47axz

[@jamesnell1999]

I just bought it.

[@glennsawyer6379]

I think Carl Sargents material for 2nd edition and especially for Greyhawk remains a high point in the TSR lineage. From the Ashes breathed life into an already excellent setting and made it feel more active and the amount of ideas and little mini scenarios in it that give players a chance to interact and involve themselves in the plots and wars are fantastic. The marklands and Iuz the evil were likewise excellent sourcebooks and added a huge amount to the game setting

[@mattinthehat3]

Another great video. I happened to like the ' From the Ashes ' boxed set. I also agree with your statement about how Gygax was already advancing the time line in the various Dragon magazine articles from the 80s. I thought those were very useful in helping a DM flesh out their own campaign.

[@3orcs]

Thank you for sharing your retrospective on "From the Ashes,". Like you, Greyhawk has always held a special place in my heart as my favorite official D&D setting, ever since it first graced the gaming table. I've had the pleasure of running it since its inception and even hosted panels at conventions in the 80's, discussing the intricacies of campaign running. While I acknowledge Carl Sargent's prowess as a writer and his innovative ideas, I share your sentiment regarding the tonal shift from Gygax's '83 box set to Sargent's '91 "From the Ashes." For me, the essence of Greyhawk lies in the foundation laid by Gygax, particularly his vision as expressed through various Dragon magazine articles. The advancement of the timeline in these publications felt like a natural progression of Gygax's original world. That said, I do see some value in the 593 CY timeline material, particularly as a resource for potential future developments in my own campaign set in 576 CY. It serves as a thought-provoking 'what if' scenario, adding depth and possibilities to the rich tapestry of Greyhawk. Again, thanks for the insightful video. It's always a joy to connect with fellow enthusiasts who appreciate the legacy and evolution of this beloved setting.

[@OniTreefolk]

I loved this. With this, I could run my module (Against the Cult of The Reptile God) and work from base Greyhawk into the wars. It helped lay a living world around my players.

[@sumdude4281]

N! is sooooo good.

[@dungeonmasterarchives6013]

My first adventures as a 9 and 10 year old were in From the Ashes. I appreciate the darker theme and pending doom as it gives the party opportunities to save the world, or destroy it.

[@MarkCMG]

Thanks for the video! Truly a polarizing product!

[@sfrink1425]

If you think about it, the course of events makes sense, if you compare to say how World War I came about. That war wasn't just about the assassination of Archduke Ferdinand; Europe was a powder keg, waiting to explode. The analogy with the Greyhawk Wars is that, prior to them occurring, forces were aligned and building up and waiting for a match to light the fuse. The build-up of tension over the 9 game years between boxed sets makes sense. The question is whether the peace that came with the treaty signed in Greyhawk will be similar to the Treaty of Versailles, eventually leading to a second, more devastating war...

[@subzero9113]

Cannot believe I missed this one! Really wondered what your feelings are toward Ashes. I hated it when it came out but now that I am older I use it and appreciate it. We built up to it so It wasn't that bad.

[@stephenclements6158]

You touched on an important point when discussing how at one point you didn't "get" material but later did. There's a lot of stuff younger me didn't see the point of and disliked, but older me up on looking at it wondered how I did without this inspired material. Some things aren't for us but are for others, some things some day will be for us, and then some things are Descent Into Avernus, the single worst thing I've ever read.

[@SwordlordRoy]

The impression I'm getting was that the esteemed Mr. Gygax was actually building up for something like the Greyhawk Wars in the first place, it just probably didn't quite go how he would have wanted without him at the helm. Likewise, we have quotes from him that there were plans on the books for an AD&D 2nd edition (Particularly recall a note about putting the Oriental Adventures Monk in the Player's Handbook), but what we got was certainly not what he envisioned. As a relatively young (90's kid) traveling scholar from Krynn (raised on Dragonlance), I don't have as much bile for the Greyhawk Wars, From the Ashes, Living Greyhawk, and Chainmail as others do, but I do kind of understand. I would probably use these resources to run a Greyhawk game, but I'd probably be looking more at Chainmail's setting.

[@autisticallyaccurate]

I know Rob Kuntz is still alive, it would be awesome to watch a livestream interview and discuss between you and him.

[@clintfell7668]

Greyhawk has always been my favorite "official" DnD setting, and the gold box and its transition to from the ashes really impressed me. TSR tried its own similar things in FR and Dragonlance but the other attempts all seemed kind of empy and false. The Greyhawk war and the From the ashes era follow up all seemed so real and believable. The only real issue was the huge influx of infernal monsters into the prime material - and the followup/transition stuff into 3rd ed fixed that with the Crook of Rao storyline. I reread the from the ashes material during Covid and even all these decades later still find it impressive and good stuff.

[@sumdude4281]

My understanding is some people were upset because people played the Wars and had different outcomes than what was presented in From the Ashes making their sessions in Wars moot. I've started my campaign in the Gold Box and am working my way thru the timeline. I'll let you know what I think when we get there! Great stuff as always.

[@johnedgar7956]

I bought a copy of this back in the day, because I was a loyal fan of "anything Greyhawk", at least on the rare occasion that I had a little money in my pocket. I also have the City of Greyhawk boxed set, and loved that. However, once I had my copy of From the Ashes I found that I had trouble "getting into it" or making heads or tails of it, and was unable to figure out why I needed this and why TSR would make such jarring changes to the game world I loved. I still have it, and because I used it so infrequently it's in remarkably good condition. I never ran any games in it, and was probably one of those "pretend like the Greyhawk Wars never happened" people. I didn't want TSR messing up my idyllic game setting. 🙂 Nowadays, as I realized how much Greyhawkery I missed out on from the Gazetteers I never saw (or heard of), the Dragon Magazine articles I never saw because the magazine just wasn't available in my small Arkansas bible-thumping town (the Satanic Panic was especially harshly prevalent for me in those days), I have been trying to bring myself up to speed with it, and what came afterwards (by year 591, I think?)...and now the current generation of players, when I can find any players at all where I live, have never even heard of Greyhawk. Which is entirely WotC's fault. Apologies for the long post.

[@RonW4684]

I think one of the complaints, other than advancing the timeline (which you put to rest), is the TONAL shift, between Gygax's 83 box and Sargent's 91 box. Sargent is a darker and more serious look, where 83 is a little more whimsical. For the record, I'm not a fan of the Greyhawk Wars as presented. It was a little too apocalyptic for me.

[@Geraint3000]

Really nicely explained.

[@MrPigfarmer23]

I know you have mentioned it in past videos, and thanks to you doing the video on it last week I have a copy in the post. But are you going to do a review of castle Zagyg as it is basically a renamed castle Greyhawk? Also are you doing a review of your castle of the archmage, can't wait for my copy to arrive

[@blnematode1267]

I hold Carl Sargent’s work in high esteem. He took on the difficult task of breathing life into an orphaned setting during a “comics code” era for D&D.

[@dr.davidhoward3179]

I liked it. My Pal 6/Clr 7 was ready. I didn't explore enough to get to know the other kingdoms. Fighting against Iuz was fun. The Shield Lands falling was sad. Paladins of Cuthbert unite!

[@AAron-gr3jk]

Oooooh I want to see this one. Time for bed but tomorrow!

[@Jon71992]

I would love to see a video from you explaining how you follow the official time line and let player's choices affect said time line. I typically play in Forgotten Realsm or at least a home brew version, and never really paid much attention to the time line outside of what I need for the campaign I was running (like the specific area i was in). I find the idea fascinating. Thanks!

[@GreyhawkGrognard]

You might find this one of interest: kzbin.info/www/bejne/jmHYeZyZoNKlmtk

[@MrRussell2020]

Would love to see a Grognard segment that explicates the changes Gary defacto scripts in his last two Gord novels.. Come Endless Darkness and Dance of Demons. Could also maybe offer some advice re: points of dovetail in From the Ashes and other works afterward that could mitigate the "everything fell into a blackness of nonexistence" factor from DohDemons. Would like to see how you reconcile things. Also your reactions to it back in 1988-90 when Gary first tried to put a torch to Oerth. Also a segment on all the demons and demon lore Gary brought to the game, some real and some ..made up? Ex Asmodeus vs Iuz /Grazzt was any "Derived"? Inspired? His last two novels were so demonology-intensive. Also the other real-world fairy lore he dovetailed into game such as Baba Haha adopting? Iuz?

[@davidleonard8547]

Yeah, totally agree. Carl Sargent did a great job, IMO; and he obviously took inspiration and guidance from Gary's and Rob's Dragon articles. If those Greyhawk timeline articles had continued, the Wars would have continued to heat up, even if they would never be named as they are now. So, in that vein, I believe that "From the Ashes" is as good as the Gold Box.

[@thex-philethackery4330]

I just started a new campaign this summer. I'm having it start in 593 CY, and I've incorporated elements from the advancing timeline as written as well as those from my previous campaigns and player's characters. We'll see how it goes.

[@leobrulotte1448]

IMO Carl Sargent's Greyhawk sourcebooks are some of the best campaign setting sourcebooks I've read. His Greyhawk material has a different tone than Gygax's, but if that's the tone I want for my campaign then it doesn't get much better than From the Ashes.

[@jamesnell1999]

I really like the Marklands. There is a lot there. According to Wikipedia, Carl Sargent passed away in 2018. It is a shame he wasn't retained as a Greyhawk designer.

[@peterhartman8170]

I only played Gold Box. I don't mind the timeline jump. If I started a campaign today it could begin in either. I homebrew much of it anyway. The published material is only a shell for me.

[@MrRussell2020]

I thought Sargent did a good job of mending the rift created by Gary's departure and his Gord the Rogue destruction of Oerth ending. He turns Dance of Demons into loose metaphor and fleshes out a new Greyhawk where the dark powers Did influence things, but in a creative progressive alter-narrative that honors Gary's last works but allows the game to go on.

[@PhileasFog-cs2bz]

As a big fan of ad&d2 and of Greyhawk at the same time, I'm trying to put the hand on this box at a not very expensive price, but it seems to be impossible nowadays. Luckily for me I got the gold box and a lot of other stuff. Thanks for this video.

[@BW022]

I stay 576. Advancing timelines and changing things defeats the purpose of a setting. Key word is "SET". As soon as you change things you have to deal with former materials not being correct, players having to learn everything. The reason you use a setting is so that everyone is on the same page. Nothing worse as a DM having a player excited about his quest to become a Knight of the Shield only to tell them, "Well actually, the shield lands have been overrun." I've have few campaigns take more than 2-3 years in game time and I generally avoided big events. Players were tiny and often started in remote places. The few times players reached higher levels and started interacting with major plots, I tended to avoid those areas in future campaigns, said that hasn't happened yet, etc. Maps, borders, country descriptions, etc. changing is just annoying. The world doesn't need to move forward. You can just reset the calendar for the next campaign.

[@devinthunderstrike]

Eberron also always starts a few years after the war. Baker has said he is against time jumps for Eberron.

[@DUNGEONRAIDER-ADD1E]

Joseph Bloch we do enjoy your channel from time to time. Wanted to list how Gary responded to 'From the Ashes'. This is Gary Gygax's response to this From the Ashes boxed set by Carl Sargent: "Lorraine Williams wished to belittle me because I dared to disagree with her business plans for TSR, so she gave some evidently envious designers the latitude to totally mess up the WoG. IMO their efforts showed how lacking they were. I named the abortive work "From the Asses," which didn't endear me to the lot. Of course, that made not a lot of difference to me." :lol: Gary You were right it Gary - World of Greyhawk as it was meant to be :)

[@doodlesquatch277]

It's me favorite.

[@Kanta82]

I have the same cat tree as you.

[@satturnine7320]

Ok so it wasn’t so much that there was this intent to ‘destroy’ GG’s creation to close it out as much as possible and send players packing to Faerun It was more of an evolutionary step in the games development but didn’t have the impact TSR hoped it would It reminds of WoW when Cataclysm came out and how divisive those unintended consequences were It’s a fascinating story but when you change the chef’s special you’re bound to get complaints I personally like the idea of a world changing event but not necessarily all the changes that were made either So there you have it, maybe leave well enough alone? I dont know, who doesn’t like playing gods and devils….

[@matthewpeacock5992]

Hey, just want to say I really enjoy watching your videos, a slice of a DnD lore I never knew about. I’m a video editor based in England, I’d be happy to cut you together a new intro if you’d like, free of charge of course. Thank you for all the content.

[@GreyhawkGrognard]

Thanks for the kind words!

[@emjtucson]

What does a person need to do to publish a Greyhawk-inspired product with the serial numbers filed off? I love Greyhawk, but I'm not a fan of IP holders.

[@stephenclements6158]

Just change some names around. And of course write the thing.

[@GreyhawkGrognard]

Go onto my web store and look for "Greyheim Adventures." Ahem.

[@hectorforth2671]

I think this was only done remove Gary Gygax.

[@stevestumpy6873]

🐉🐉🐉🐉🐉🐉🐉🐉🐉🐉

[@willmistretta]

I love the idea of wars shaping the world. Organically, at the gaming table. I hate the idea of some rando writer I don't even know just telling me that these conflicts happened and how they went down. I double hate the idea of paying them money for that "privilege." Top-down metaplot like this is poison to an RPG setting, period. Even when EGG did it in Dragon, I prefer to treat it *at best* as a set of suggestion for events you could use in your games if you felt like it and wouldn't really have been interested in such data as a standalone product.

[@sststr]

I really don't like it. I don't mind advancing the timeline, but the way the Greyhawk Wars canonically played out was rubbish, so the results it produces must necessarily be rubbish. A few pieces of it are ok, the shattering of the Great Kingdom makes sense to me, the whole northern wars aspect is fine, but mostly the Greyhawk Wars are just incomprehensible nonsense. Well, I guess you could argue many of the actions and outcomes were manipulated by the gods to force things, but that's pretty lame and takes away all human (/demi-human/humanoid) agency, and thus free will doesn't exist in Greyhawk. That's one way to run a campaign, I guess, but not a very interesting one. Perhaps if they had handled the Greyhawk Wars in a more sensible manner then From the Ashes might be more palatable, but as it is... *puke*

[@dennismokry258]

I bought From the Ashes shortly after it came out as my first campaign setting and my first in depth look into in the Flaness; and I loved it. I had also recently read the first four Black Company novels by Glen Cook and this setting really resonated with those books. When I started to acquire the older published Greyhawk material, which was NOT very easy to find with TSR going so hard on Forgotten Realms, it felt very safe and tame by comparison. It was sterile, weak, waiting for something to happen in so many places and seemingly disjointed. The older stuff was a great base, but just didn’t feel like it went far enough. From The Ashes was well written with very good support materials included and of very good product quality. To me it didn’t advance the timeline, the gold box was historical reference material. Maybe we can agree that personal style, experience, familiarity, and order of exposure are driving factors in what we feel is a better product, rather than calling it rubbish.. What it really did well was bring in and hook new people into the wonderful, poorly supported, setting that was Greyhawk through the early nineties.

[@cutterjocky4917]

Like this comment if you want Joe to wear the Magneto helmet in his next video

[@fenreer01]

"Greyhawk Wars" was a bad product in every way possible.. Were I in Carl Sargent's position of having to bring back Greyhawk from that, I'd have vanished from the face of the Earth/Oerth *before* submitting my manuscripts. What he and the others ended up producing were some excellent RPG campaign products that stand up well against anything made before or after. ... Except Philidor... screw that guy... So, I have no major complaints about FTA. Apparently Osson's Raid was an allegory about TSR at the time, where old guard pushed and fought and did everything they could but eventually were destroyed despite their efforts? I heard that mentioned a few times, but I wan't sure if the story was told in jest or seriousness.