Retrospective of Utena - Part Deux: The Black Rose Saga & Ripples of a Revolution

When you look at the landscape of media in the years that follow Utena's debut, one thing is for certain that a lot of what it has to offer isn't just found in the series itself, while there is certainly a lot to still cover, but also in what it did for culture both in Japan and outside of it.
In this second part of the Retrospective of Utena, we look at the effects that Utena the series had on media not just in Japan but in the west as well, while also looking into the second saga of the series in the Black Rose Saga, while delving into some side bits of the series as well
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TIMESTAMPS:
00:39 - Intro
06:05 - Episodes 14 & 15 - The Mikage Seminar Opens
18:44 - Episode 16-18- The Problem With Nanami & The Pain of Shiori
32:43 - Intermission Une: Story of the Someday Revolution - Utena for Sega Saturn
38:15 - Episode 19 - 21 - The Tragedies of Wakaba & Keiko
50:30 - Episode 22 - 24 - Truth & Lies
1:01:08 - Intermission Deux: Ursula’s Kiss - The “Lost” Utena Adaptation
1:16:43 - Outro: Discussing Utena as a Deconstruction Anime & Road to End of the World
1:22:16 - Credits
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Twitter: @ChloeSunfloraVA
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[@sokpupetthebarbarian]

You might not like it, but Nanami episodes are what peak filler performance looks like. Viewers are conditioned to feel anxiety whenever she's on screen because you don't know if she's got a snails in the pencil box or killing cats kinda thing going on this time around. Thanks so much for showing Ursula's Kiss I never thought I would get to see it, I was actually getting excited hearing that opener.

[@ChloeSunfloraVA]

You're not wrong tbh, I more exaggerated it for this one set of Nanami episodes, even the ones in student council weren't this bad. Trust me, her finest hour is yet to come. Also THANK YOU!! You have no idea how much effort went into making it as accurate as possible to how dubs of that time were 😭

[@Sephirajo]

The nanami episodes are important, as they show how Anthy acts out. I get not liking them, but they aren't out of left field. you are right about the placement though.

[@trolilith]

it's really interesting to hear other's opinions on the cowbell episode, because personally it was one of my favorites! i don't really like where it's placed chronologically, but aside from that i think it's themes are really interesting, it feels like a simulacra of one big theme in RGU; performance. In the same way characters dress up as something to embody that thing and become that thing (like how some characters that are dressed as princes in this arc because they're trying to be duelists will wear dresses in the next arc), nanami becomes a cow because she "gets too into character", and what a fitting character for this narrative! since nanami is constantly changing her appearence depending on what she's trying to acomplish, the cowbell of happiness is just that but accidentally, it's the ugly consequence of performance. Just as one can become a prince through wearing a boy's uniform, engaging in duels and being kind and noble, so one can become a cow by wearing a cowbell and being too chill. also, just letting you know, the latin-american dub did change the cast's name and the dialogues, like Utena is actually called Ursula, Saionji is Kevin, Wakaba is Wanda and all that (for more info search "Úrsula y el Anillo Mágico)

[@ChloeSunfloraVA]

Honestly, I may think it's not great an episode but I appreciate how people can find that kind of meaning in an episode like it that fits with Utenas overall themes. And yes I am very much aware of that dub, it's pretty interesting with that knowledge ngl

[@Insectus666]

(Spoilers for the final arc) I think Cowbell of Happiness is a really good example of foreshadowing too, Nanami’s transformation into a cow foreshadows Utena’s eventual role as a “princess”in the apocalypse arc. Utena’s earrings even look like the cowbell.

[@kinoleogeo7998]

I wonder how hard on the kissing cousins they were going to go on Juri and Shiori during the Black Rose arc… who am I kidding, they would never have gotten Akio’s “meetings” with “Angie”

[@hipstersoulgushers5997]

I think I just figured out what the cowbell episode is about. I had never thought about the idea that it could be meta and not just sureal for the sake of. The cowbell represents the rings. Nanami represents all the duealists but maybe specifically utena, maybe just the black rose duelists. Wearing the ring makes you a dualist, you act strangely because you are wearing a piece of jewelry, everyone can see something is wrong with them except themselves. If they took off the ring they would stop playing the game, and it would be fine. Anthey is encouraging the delusion, she named the cow nanami, she plays the rosebride when she could be honest. And the cow gets slaughtered for akio, just like how the dualists will ultimately just be slaughtered for akio's benefit.

[@KaraOfTheSea]

Omg Anthy's voice! It is like if Daria Morgandorpher voiced her.

[@lasloapollo4312]

Wow such a great vid. This should on youtube trending!!!! Thank you kind person for making this. First time i watched any of your vids but i love it❤❤❤❤

[@Omnimegas]

i have no idea what kind of tone they were going for with Touga in the pilot, but his line deliveries are *wild* to me for some reason

[@patchesheadphones3570]

Unrelated but oh my God I can't believe that I watched she-ra all the way through and never caught the parallel of Utena/Catra reaching out a hand to Anthy/Adora lol. I'm not very far in the video, but I can already tell this is gonna be a treat. Excited to watch more.

[@ChloeSunfloraVA]

As someone who watched She-Ra first and then Utena, I immediately went noticed it and it's made every rewatch of that show more fun in the same way rewatching Steven Universe is for the same reason 💖

[@MP24685]

I came back to watch this after watching Une a few weeks ago! The entire video was worth it just to hear you say the bit about Utena and Anthy Fucking 😂

[@ChloeSunfloraVA]

I mean, tell me that is not what is being implied in that scene

[@MP24685]

@@ChloeSunfloraVA it was and I'm here for it 🤣

[@Pumpkin_Pyrite]

The retrospective on this series is so wonderful. I love Utena and I've been enjoying listening to this while I draw... ...but I had to put my pencil down and give the screen my full attention when I heard "Ursula's Kiss." Oh my God, I thought I was going to ascend to another plane of existence when I heard "Just A Girl" by No Doubt.

[@ChloeSunfloraVA]

That entire recreation of it may be one of my crowning achievements with this retrospective and I am so glad people are appreciating the little details like that cover of "Just a Girl" being used.

[@DocKrazy]

Have you ever considered though That maybe Everything else is filler And the nanami episodes are the only thing that's canon? It's nanami's world and we're only living in it.

[@thesugarplumprincess]

I feel like you’re totally missing the point of the nanami episodes and the nanami Anthy parallels! Especially on rewatch it’s really obvious that every nonsensical nanami episode is Anthy messing with her!

[@ChloeSunfloraVA]

I was more trying to do something a bit more comical/be more cynical about this run of episodes because of how more "out there" they are but the execution of it didn't come out like I had hoped at the time 😅

[@zs4580]

Glad you made this video, it's great and I've enjoyed watching it (need more Utena discussion out there) but I can't understand being annoyed by the Nanami episodes, they are so ridiculous and amazing. Lolol especially with how extra her dub VA's performance is.

[@ChloeSunfloraVA]

I'll be honest, aside from Cowbell of Happiness, I don't mind most of the Nanami episodes, I just played it up more for this video because of how this middle portion of Utena feels.

[@zs4580]

​@@ChloeSunfloraVAI hear ya lol thanks for putting more Utena content out there

[@ChloeSunfloraVA]

Oh trust me @@zs4580 I'm not done, Apocalypse saga's coming out before the end of the year 😎

[@TheoRae8289]

I'm also not big on big detour episodes that revolve around weird themes compared to the actual story.

[@ChloeSunfloraVA]

My favorite comparison is how Atlanta Season 3 has those anthology episodes spread throughout it that focus on an entirely new cast of characters. You can kind of tell the same vibes of the show are there but it's still massively jarring having to adjust to it when they appear suddenly in the series, especially after bigger episodes beforehand (and if they have more innane plots to them)

[@Strawberry_Cubes]

6:55 OH NO

[@VladimirosJohanson]

I refuse to believe that Ursula's Kiss is real and not an April Fool's prank.

[@ChloeSunfloraVA]

I mean, if it was, I'm glad to have contributed to such an elaborate prank ngl

[@Riabae94]

Ngl i have mixed feelings but I actually really like the opening About the voice actors I surprisingly really love miki’s and utena’s Anthy voice actor sounds nothing like her at ALL😭😭

[@ValeriaXSandra]

You played Nanami's cowbell dirty. And jokes on you, who missed the point and decided to make a loud oof from it. The episode's meaning beneath the surface is her fascination with Toga. She believes Toga sent her the necklace, so what others say is white noise! Togs is perfect, his taste is supreme. Except Anthy sent it. With all the dreams and magic. And Dona-Dona. This song has meaning. Yiddish song, about man named Jura the PRINCE, and calf that came to it for symphaty. All the episode is Anthy's scream to Nanami :"Open your eyes, your brother is out to kill you, you dumb cow!" There is great analysis on this on KZbin, you should really find it, I think video is called artifice and equality. There is three series of those, and I encourage everyone to watch it Also English dub is not worth any praise. I don't know all of it, since I just saw fragments, but what I heard of it is awful. Voices are flat and translation is whacky. Miki's cast was nail in the coffin. Miki has a high, unbroken, childish voice, and in one of the light novels it described as soprano. Freaking highest in the range. And they desided to let him be voiced by twenty something baritone. Ugh.. I can't even. Sorry for being grumpy, you did good job, but those are things I can't paas

[@ChloeSunfloraVA]

I'll actually defend the dub anyday, it's one of the better ones to have come out from the Central Park Media crew, this and the OG Slayers Trilogy are the two best dubs to come from that company and if it weren't for this or Slayers, we arguably wouldn't have VO legends like Eric Stuart, Crispin Freeman and especially Rachel Lillis in the industry. So while it may not fit what may be an idea behind how the voices sound, they deserve to be respected regardless for what they did for the industry at the time.

[@ValeriaXSandra]

@@ChloeSunfloraVA you are right about this one. Actors are not to blame. But, as someone with film directing bachelors, I still stand by my opinions. Actors don't just do what they want. Those who given them instructions, however, are to blame. As a voicing director one gives actors clear instructions, double check translation, and sure as heck do not allow miscast that is directly opposes character. This is not unavoidable mistakes either, even with limitation in budget. Original show is done with love and creativity and not giving actors " Hey, do Akio deeper and with some breath, and Utena should sound here a bit more ring to her voice, here and there" feels bad

[@beyonkadonk]

1:59 please use google translate to at least attempt a correct pronunciation im begging

[@jacobkakyoin6882]

The Black Rose arc is something I deeply appreciate about RGU, very much a relic of its time in a way that's a shame hasn't carried over. It's just under a cour's worth of time spent, more or less, on a bunch of side characters, most of whom were already established early on but in a way where you were likely to question if they even mattered longterm or forget they ever existed. Each getting their own development as well as furthering the characterization through association of the duelist they're closest linked to makes the setting and these characters feel more whole and alive, and it helps shake the duels themselves up by having a fresh batch in the middle where otherwise you'd just have Ruka. That said though, easily its weakest opponent is the first, Kanae is the only Utena character I think is completely underused and she suffers from being the only one who not only just showed up then, but only barely makes a cameo or two later. There was more to be told here! She's another of Akio's victims! He's even messing with her mom! Meanwhile Mikage is one of my favorite duels in the entire series, alongside Nanami's final one and obviously Wakaba's. It's probably the one with the coolest visuals and choreography. I feel like if RGU were made today they'd just make a clean 24-26 episodes with no recaps and just go right from the Council to 'Akio convinces the council to do rematches,' assuming they even all got rematches and weren't just spread further out, and the world would feel so much lesser for it. It's genuinely extremely good and awesome that the story is willing to take its room to breathe, tell its story gradually and with extra stuff that's just there to let you see new sides to the cast. Feel like everyone is so afraid of the word "filler" that a lot of anime aren't comfortable doing that even though that word doesn't apply at all to so many series. This appreciation also applies to the episodes with no particular progress towards duels or the overarching prince plot, not just this arc, the story would absolutely be worse for any of them being cut or trimmed away. Also noticing the shadow plays getting skipped over in these, and honestly I'd love to hear more thoughts on what they all mean, or what it means how this arc in particular had the two girls replaced with a third one for its run. Also also glad that other cow Nanami episode defenders are here in comments. I'm a big fan of all the weird Nanami shit episodes even without their deeper meaning purely because I love the fact that Utena has a designated character who, as weird as the world already is, all the weirdest and funniest shit seems to happen to (not coincidentally, it eventually becomes clear...), like how the dream she has really is kinda messed up in a way that says a lot about her depths as a character and the fact that deep down she's afraid of being 'devoured' by the brother she claims to be wholly devoted to. It also... really didn't feel like a fetish thing in its execution to me. There were absolutely ways it could've been played that way and I think it avoided all of those to focus primarily on how silly and strange it is, as well as what it said about the character underneath. Then, to me, the Nanami Episode Recap Episode is also pretty unsubtle in its point: by reminding you that these happened, and hell, by drawing attention to the idea that someone was lurking in the shadows of all of them watching the whole time, on top of making for a hilarious remix of the original material, it makes a point clear: there IS a full picture to Nanami that can be assembled by taking in her focus episodes as a whole, there's a few recurring themes in the things that happen to and around her, and understanding this is important to fully appreciating the series. It's actually kind of uncomfortable how heated you get about Yamaguchi's writing, ngl. You actually come across as so heated about them that I genuinely believe your distaste for their wacky tone negatively impacts your entire analysis of the series, even when not directly talking about these episodes (largely in terms of downplaying the wacky tone elsewhere). I get that on SOME level it's an overplayed bit, but even then I think more could've been done to talk about what these actually say about the characters instead of brushing them off. I'll also defend Cow Episode's placement in the arc BECAUSE it's right where the Black Rose arc has started to get under way. It makes sense to put an episode meant to primarily be funny as a breather right before things start to take a turn for the darker, and that's right at the cusp of it, though I guess you could say it'd structurally make more sense to put Tsuwabuki's fight right after it than Shiori's? But even then, I'd say it makes more sense to move that one back than Cow Episode sooner. I genuinely got annoyed and considered dropping the video midway through your rant about it (specifically after the fixation on "purpose" - it DOES have pretty clear purpose as others have said, but even that aside it just isn't a great way to look at media - and this strange insistence that Utena otherwise has a super dramatic and serious tone outside of Nanami episodes when that just isn't 100% consistently true until maybe the last 3-4 episodes) not gonna lie, and this when I've overall been appreciating the analysis of this video and the first. Not liking an ep is fine and dandy on its own but that whole point and crapping on Yamaguchi's writing so much got a bit... Well, it reminded me of a cross between late 00s-2010s channel awesome 'snark' and certain infamous cartoon review youtuber whose name rhymes with Renter. Not great vibes to invoke, let alone at the same time. Funny, before watching this retrospective I didn't actually know that almost every single Nanami-focused episode up until the one with her final duel were written by one guy, and now I have an even stronger appreciation for every single one of them than before. One guy really did just take this shoujo bully side character and absolutely run with her, turning her from someone who was a hilarious foil to the lead girls first into the downright Wile E Coyote of shoujo anime and then from there into one of the most sympathetic, well-rounded, and compelling characters in the entire story, all the while interweaving her deceptively subtle character arc in perfectly with the greater themes of the story while not being part of the core Be-papas team. To bring things back around to positivity, though, I really did get a good kick out of that Ursula dub.

[@ChloeSunfloraVA]

1. THANK YOU, I think Kanae being used to primarily serve as a side-piece to Akio's twisted double life and nothing more than that in her appearances is a missed opportunity, hence why I constantly called her basic because well, she really could have done with more expansion overall. 2. Don't worry about the Shadow Play girls, I didn't forget them. 😉 3. Honestly, it's because of those comments surrounding Cowbell of Happiness that I make a somewhat-apology in Part 3 as well as tone down a lot of those aspects that you mentioned throughout that video in general, it became clear that exaggerating my feelings on those two episodes was not coming out how I had hoped it to and it was a learning lesson for someone who is trying to NOT fall down that same rabbit hole a lot of those creators went down. I do stand by the placement of Cowbell being off however, if it was like Nanami's Egg in Apocalypse where it was after the first two duels of the arc or even Take Care with it being placed after the first three duels and having Mitsuru's duel swapped around for it? I feel it'd work better than sandwiching it between Shiori and Mitsuru's duel tbh. 4. The Ursula's Kiss "recreation" is honestly top 3 of anything I did for this project, so knowing it's gotten as good a reception as it has makes me hella chuffed tbh 🥰

[@maximilianoramirezromero9771]

Nanami's episodes are an arc within arcs, Anthy hates Nanami because she sees herself at that age. Also Mikage's hair is a very very very pale pink, also Mikage mirrors Utena, both being raginf bisexuals that pine for the sibling of the same sex. Look out for el beso se Úrsula, is the mexican spanish dub ggg

[@genesischaparro8954]

It makes me so happy to find people still making analyses of Utena. Subscribing in anticipation of the Akio and Revolution arcs ~

[@victoriapilarreyna]

tougas delivery is so funny in the ursula's kiss thing

[@maximilianoramirezromero9771]

Nanami's cowbell apears later as a nod in episode 32 and although it's a weird placement, it's inportant asince it shows the academy works on illusions since we never see again those alps

[@fishlordusername891]

5:40 thats crazy because i think i accidentally missed an episode in the saga and I'm still confused about it.

[@saludsinfiltros6854]

Black rose saga is like purgatory in the Utenaverse. I like how a ghost can stop its own time

[@ratbones620]

Ok but the Ursula’s Kiss intro went way harder than it needed to

[@saludsinfiltros6854]

Utena’s music needs an analysis on its own. Donna Donna… j.a seazer is a genious

[@LavenderLout]

YamaGOATchi

[@jacobkakyoin6882]

Cosigned. Top 1 of all Utena writers in the verse

[@anonymousyoutuber1405]

URSULA'S KISS HAS THE GOD CARDS SUMMONING OST FOR THE SWORD OF DIOS!!!

[@ExelArts]

what the f*** The sound of Anthy's voice in Ursula's kiss is awful

[@lillianadkins5378]

I really would like someone to cover the game!!! It looks so interesting but I can't focus on visual novels myself

[@io8371]

Over 10 years of living in Japan and interacting with many anime fans, almost noone knows about Utena

[@ChloeSunfloraVA]

I think that has to do more with modern tastes dictating what is talked about more than anything, but that is an interesting thing to consider for this!

[@DropOfMidnightOfficial]

this video is so well made!! the dub bit near the end was a treat haha

[@Strawberry_Cubes]

1:08:45 THE CENSORED SLAP OML THE ACCURACY LMFAO

[@Strawberry_Cubes]

Also the stank ass music it’s alls perfect and the blown out voice acting it’s all so perfect

[@ckdmkcmdnjdjsndjdj3023]

leave the cowbell episode alone

[@ChloeSunfloraVA]

What am I if not honest? (I do regret going too hard on the parts of it I disliked)

[@ckdmkcmdnjdjsndjdj3023]

@@ChloeSunfloraVA lmao dont regret it i get your points i just have a special space for the silly nanami episodes ig (it was also funny to see someone really heated about them tbh)

[@anonymousyoutuber1405]

I'm losing my mind because Ursula Thompson's OST is the yugioh dub OST up to and including the "Egypt" soundtrack for the opening exposition and the "music to duel by" soundtrack.