Return to the Founders to Save America? - Michael Anton and Patrick Deneen Debate

Patrick Deneen and Michael Anton debate if we need to return to the founders' vision in order to save America.

[@chrismathew2295]

Patrick Deneen's opening statement is at once incredibly eloquent and tightly argued.

[@howardroark3736]

The strange thing about the beginning of this for me is that Michael Anton keeps referring to the Founders as having thought they discovered a new science of government, but it’s quite the opposite of how most of them thought. Jefferson believed rule by the people would be self-correcting, and various Founders thought they had done the best job in history of framing a government, but that was mainly because they were taking inspiration from older forms, trying to create checks and balances that emulated the wisdom and avoided the mistakes of prior experiments in self-government. Their decision to include a procedure for Amendments (and then to pass ten of those immediately) shows they had a much more realistic view of their achievement than to think they’d found the *right way* for all time.

[@alongsleep]

Patrick Deneen is brilliant.

[@jrdougan]

Starts at 3:56

[@byronsmith1700]

A brilliant and important discussion. Great minds. Thank you, ISI.

[@tytyvyllus8298]

No one noticed that Anton mixed up Cracker-Jacks with Bazooka Joe gum. The latter had the tiny comic strip on the inside of the wrappers while the former came with a toy in the box

[@tytyvyllus8298]

Sad!

[@kamilziemian995]

Great discussion.

[@alongsleep]

I didn't really feel like Anton was engaged in this discussion, he seemed somewhat unserious.

[@samuelspiel8855]

Champions!

[@pop3stealth97]

52:47

[@justinfoard3322]

Massively confused...Has Dr. Deneen changed his views from 2018? Initially, he seemed to argue that America's founding was Hobbesian and, as such, the societal decline we see today can be directly drawn to the intrinsic problems within that Hobbesian project (e.g., the time capsule release argument). Now, he's trying to argue that there was some conspiratorial endeavor to link American founding with mid-20th century liberal concerns. Someone help me, hahaha.

[@justinfoard3322]

Yeah, as I continue to listen, he has definitely changed his thesis. What was once labelled "first stage liberalism" or "classical liberalism" he now unqualifiedly classifies the founding as "conservative." Very disappointing.

[@jimmyjames417]

The Founders were wrong to rebel against their king, and any pretty words they wrote were to hide this

[@DissentOrConcur]

The founder were RIGHT in rebelling against the tyrant king.

[@jameswilson8946]

Is Anton Catholic?

[@celtaclassroom7082]

Yes.

[@jameswilson8946]

@@celtaclassroom7082 wow I didn’t realize that. I can’t find anything of him mentioning it.

[@celtaclassroom7082]

@@jameswilson8946 I don't know what his current religious views are, I'm just doing the math. But any credible online source - as well as the woke propaganda outlet Wikipedia - says he's of Italian and Lebanese background. Most Lebanese-Americans at the time Anton was born in the 1960s (particularly in his home state of California) were Maronite Catholics and virtually all Italians are (at least in a nominal sense). Marriages between Muslim Arabs and Italian Catholics were essentially non-existent and even today aren't common. So even if he didn't grow up in a practicing religious home, odds are he was raised at least culturally Catholic.

[@danesovic7585]

Anton is talking of Frankfurt school as "German import".

[@celtaclassroom7082]

He's clearly referring first and foremost to 19th-century German philosophy and the associated reforms in education, which informed the creation of the modern research university in 19th-century America. The Frankfurt School came much later, in the 1920s.

[@jimmyjames417]

Anton speaking about the Religious Wars - you can't blame the Catholic Church for attacks upon it. Or for the Swedes ransackingthe HRE.

[@justinfoard3322]

Gutav Adolphus--that savage!

[@carlroberts4540]

An.inemmoral.theory.and.ideolgy..

[@carlroberts4540]

Democracy.the.idean.the.theory..the.idealogy..all.wrong.

[@patrickvernon4766]

The founders existed before capitalism and couldn’t comprehend the centralization of private power. No we can’t go back to them. Besides they were liberals and liberalism is something to overcome

[@jimmyjames417]

Is Mr. Anton Jewish?

[@jimmyjames417]

When he said "there may be no way out" at 31:20, that struck me as someone speaking who doesn't have a relationship with Christ. He says it while quoting Leo Strauss, "availability of a solution is not guaranteed, who is also not Christian, right? Is he Jewish?

[@douglasmacarthur702]

Anton is not Jewish. Wikipedia reports him as having Italian and Lebanese descent. Quoting Leo Strauss is not evidence of someone being Jewish.

[@tuckerbugeater]

@@douglasmacarthur702 He worked for Citi and Blackrock. That's worse than being a semite.

[@CanadianGuerrilla]

He is Catholic. He says so in an older interview about San Francisco's history.

[@timeWaster76]

NO!

[@nulltheworm]

We don't have the demographics for it anymore. Move on from that dream.

[@celtaclassroom7082]

I fear you are right but what should we move on to?

[@donnamattis7749]

Who are those...the Native Americans?

[@ramon2008]

Huh? Whachu talking about Willis

[@gch8810]

The Indians played no part in founding the United States.

[@Mike-nq7gb]

It wasn't fake aboriginal like African Americans claim There are not

[@donnamattis7749]

I see you don't understand sarcasm. Neither do you know the difference between THEY'RE, THERE. To make it clear for you, I was referring to the Indigenous people...the land after all belongs to them and not the whities!

[@ripvanwinkle1819]

Bizarre considering the Anglo 13 colonies of north America was distinctly anti catholic and it was virtually outlawed and banished to the french frontier

[@rickvinson8324]

Patrick Deneen, religious socialist. I can only hope his quest for theocracy never pans out.

[@Tyrannosaurus_5000]

You engaged absolutely no detail or aspect of his rational arguments.

[@justinfoard3322]

Hahahahaah, I found the prot heretic!