Review: Beethoven in Cristofori's Bathroom

[@tomross5347]

I'm reserving judgment on Schoonderwoerd until I hear his Mahler 8th.

[@martinhochbaum8936]

Your terrific review reminded me of that great quote of football coach John McKay, who was asked after another abysmal performance by his team "What did you think of your team's execution?" he replied "I'm in favor of it..."

[@lawrencerinkel3243]

Just wait until he gets to the Ninth. The 1-to-a-voice chorus would be singing, "Fraud-e schoener Goetterfunken."

[@pokerandphilosophy8328]

When I first heard this performance, I was quite puzzled when heard the sound of a flush toilet at the end instead of applauses. Thanks to David for explaining it! It all makes perfect sense now.

[@neptune511]

I enjoy listening to Schoonderwoerd's Beethoven excursions once in a while especially if I am doing work around the house, these super stripped down recordings come through pretty well and the counterpoint and instrumentation sounds very very clear. I am not saying they are "great" performances, I have many other Eroicas on my shelf that are "Great" but I enjoy mr Schoonderwoerd's Beethoven and in light of this bashing orgy I feel I have to say it. I don't mind the entertainment value of the reviews, the Xenakis skit was pretty funny, I grew up listening to his music. Cheers!

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

Whatever floats your boat....

[@neptune511]

it gets the windows cleaned

[@TenorCantusFirmus]

Immerseel does a much better work, if you like period instruments performance (and I own his cycle).

[@esthergagne5195]

Dear David, I always enjoy your reviews, I smile each time I listen to them and most of the time agree with your recommendations. Now, if I may, from my own personal point of view, there is one positive aspect to such a strange initiative from Schooderwoerd. I have been struggling on a chamber opera for many years now. When I try to figure the appropriate forces for this or that idea, of course I can trust my inner ear and when in doubt refer myself to some other chamber works, Dumbarton Oaks, Schönberg's chamber symphonies, Barber's Knoxville are good examples, and there are many others but such a sonic disproportion between the winds and strings never being attempted by any composer, it is very helpful to hear what it actually sounds like, so as soon as you mentioned it, I found it on a streaming platform and listened to it, and it was very helpful for me! It doesn't sound good, it's inappropriate, but it's something I had been looking for for a long time and it was very educational. I didn't find the interpretation dreadful personally, mostly meh and obviously "held back" because of the imbalance. Thank you for your great reviews and keep on critiquing!

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

Thanks for writing. This is very interesting. Of course a disc such as this may serve a useful purpose, but it's worth noting that this purpose has nothing to do with the experience of listening to a rewarding performance of the works in question! Good luck with your opera project.

[@thomaswilke6312]

I remember listening to the small ensemble performances of the beethoven symphonies by Christopher Hogwood and John Eliot Gardiner. They sounded very different

[@Craig_Wheeler]

Well. . . The only way that performance got to be a "smoker" of a recording was with your assistance! 💿🔥

[@adrianoseresi3525]

I saw the scarf of irredeemable Chutzpah and I clicked instantly!

[@danieldroppa3170]

Same:-)

[@detectivehome3318]

Same

[@mike-williams]

Given the video title, I assumed that the scarf was toilet paper.

[@ginopagnani7286]

I predict that the audio magazines will be reviewing “high-end” blow torches of doom!

[@benjamingreenfield9569]

Oh Boy I made it through half the exposition before turning this off. This recording falls under the category "Just because you can do something doesn't mean you should." Blowtorch of doom???? OH Dave, You gotta do the Microwave Masacre......THAT'S a FAR more satisfying method of distruction.

[@Randy-Wright_Edt]

just listened to some of this on KZbin. You are not exaggerating. One thing I found interesting. I wanted to see what some of the comments said but the comments are turned off! Gee I wonder why?

[@neptune511]

The comments are turned off from all videos where the artist is the topic of the channel. It doesn't matter if it is this guy or Karajan, it is not someone's personal channel.

[@sjc1204]

When I viewed your Beethoven piano concertos video, my stomach hurt from laughing so hard during the bathroom segment.

[@corgansow7176]

I have heard snippets of the recording. I don't really mind that sort of radical if kooky arrangement if the performers have something different to tell the audience but the phrasing, dynamics and balance is so flat, its akin to listening to a high school ensemble.

[@rezashia3135]

Thank God someone has uploaded this monstrosity and their butchering of the emperor concerto on KZbin to spare us the effort of seeking it elsewhere for amusement purposes! By the way you could do a Max Reger in the smallest room of the house with the booklet!

[@raphaelfournier8273]

You're damn right. As music lover and French taxpayer, I may only concur. Next time, I bring the torch ! Serioulsy, there has been so much crap heavily funded by ill-oriented public subsidies in France, especially since Boulez' IRCAM swindle. Btw, could be the subject of a whole talk, The great "Musique contemporaine" swindle, a bit like the historically informed unmusical performance practice swindle, without the slightest bit of self-derision which made the swindle sung by Johnny Rotten famous.

[@marknewkirk4322]

Dave, you should invest in the oven mitts of doom to avoid the blisters of doom.

[@curseofmillhaven1057]

Rather than Beethoven in the bathroom it's Beethoven fit for the toilet! I couldn't believe it - I have never heard a less impressive, unheroic, Eroica. It reminded me in places of the famous deliberately bad orchestra The Portsmouth Sinfonia but not as funny. I never thought I'd say this but it makes Roger Norrington's version with the LCP sound positively lush!

[@martinhaub6828]

Portsmouth Sinfonia! Now there's a topic for a video review, especially for younger followers who have no idea what it is.

[@patrickhows1482]

I see there is an Arthur Schoonderwoerd KZbin channel. I noticed that comments are turned off, I wonder why? What next a reconstruction of the premiere of Beethoven's Violin Concerto, including the soloist playing a solo violin piece by another composer while holding the violin upside down after the first movement?

[@gabep6848]

I can't tell you how your videos make my morning and this video had me in stitches!! I remember in the days of regrettable CD purchases, going outside and running over the disc and case with my car.

[@jackminot2431]

For some of my regrettable CD purchases, the case was the thing worth saving. I would mate the bad CD with a bad case. Then I would save the good case to use when getting a used CD to make it look fresh.

[@jppitman1]

I bought a Ford Escort in its first model year of 1981 and when I came across a horrible LP, I`d place it on the dashboard on a very hot day to come back to find a piece of art. Too bad I didn`t save them to sell as art NOW. (I did make interesting shapes from wheelchair tire wire as I pulled it out of used wheelchair tires; maybe I can support my retirement on those now. I did save those. I bet no other tech. in the country did.)

[@detectivehome3318]

Amazing review Dave. My enjoyment knew no bounds when you took ou the blowtorch of doom 😈 I literally applauded after the review got over. Your content quality is just too notch. Thank you to all the hells and heavens that could possibly exist!

[@MarauderOSU]

I had to get out my Bernstein/NYP record of this symphony as soon as I finished watching this!

[@elagabalus-imperator]

I did not recognize the third symphony here. I thought the opening of the second movement was accompaniment to the theme from "Jaws". Sonically, I thought the Coriolan overture was decent; but the rest of the recording did sound as if the ensemble was playing while wading through bilge-water. Wow.

[@пейнтболмосквы]

Imagine the "guillotine" moment before coda in Egmont

[@Don-md6wn]

"The fugue sounds like the musical equivalent of a groin pull." LOL

[@mickeytheviewmoo]

Be careful of the fumes. Think of your health. I mean your lungs not your ears

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

Thank you. I know...

[@hyperaticism]

Speaking of 6-minute-long pieces goes on and on for 9 minutes, did you ever heard of David Hagan's solo piano transcription of the Honegger Pacific 231, Dave? That derailed train goes on for 9.5 minutes presumably due to the impossibility of the transcription or pianist's inability. It really shocked me in my piano-transcription-loving days, because the Pacific is what formally get me in to classical music. The more stupid thing is, before I heard that, I was so in love with the Pacific that I wanted to transcribe it for piano solo and play that by midi rendition myself!

[@hyperaticism]

the Trenkner-Speidel 4-hand version is much better that lasts 6 : 10, but still feels like having a danger of derailment.

[@ftumschk]

An enterprising musician named Schoonderwoerd Had some interesting theories, or so I've heard; But - no! - not a bit, It all turned to shit, With his recording of Beethoven's "Turd"

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

LOL!

[@shimoncrown]

I couldn't resist trying bits of this on one of the streaming services. Your comments are far too kind.

[@DavidJohnson-of3vh]

I listened to the first two movements of this after viewing your review. It certainly was different. The trumpet parts sound rewritten to me.

[@Bezart34]

Brilliant! I love the Tovey quote; so, so true. Call me old-fashioned, but my basic artistic philosophy is that exponents of a genre, SHOULD have the soul aim of creating performances of the highest quality possible. I cannot for the life of me, see why ANYONE would want to even attempt to do something that is surely from the outset, nothing but a travesty. The blowtorch of shame! First time I've seen it in operation, and boy, how satisfying was that!

[@williamsmith5549]

Hey, has Schoenderwoerd organized a recording of Wagner's Siegfired Idyll with the 11 musicians lined up one at a time on the staircase at Villa Hugel? He would be just the one to do that......

[@fredcasden]

Dave, you have made my day!!!

[@charlesedwards5302]

This MUST be Herbert von Karajan's love letter to David Hurwitz from beyond the grave: 'This will teach that man to stop complaining about the recessed woodwind sound of my wonderfully engineered mid 1970s DG recordings of.... anything' ;-)

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

I never thought of that!

[@charlesedwards5302]

@@DavesClassicalGuide One of the great joys of your videos for me has been the discovery of the woodwind section in Dvorak and Beethoven, starting with Schuricht and Ancerl and Neumann and Suitner and good old Klempie. I am of that unfortunate generation brought up on the belief that the BPO sound was the ideal, and I am hearing this music differently now. I can even tell the difference between an oboe and a clarinet. Herbert would be furious.

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

@@charlesedwards5302 Thank you. One of the great ironies of the Berlin wind section in Karajan's time was that it consisted of some really amazing playing, many of whom had major solo careers.

[@nikolausspoerel3835]

@@DavesClassicalGuide In the early seventies Berlin was at its peak, but I never liked HvK concerts after he started to double woodwinds even in semi-solo passages to achieve this "lack of personality". No wonder they played so much more spontaneously under many guest conductors. I fondly remember their concerts with Kertesz, Kubelik, Tennstedt and especially Rozhdestvensky.

[@richardegarr1441]

Amen...Hallelujah

[@frankgyure3154]

I love the Reger quote

[@patrickhows1482]

Just after watching this video, I saw an item in the Classic FM website entitled Hidden violinists frighten householders with 'Psycho' music from the shower. Perhaps this could be more fruitful employment for the Ensemble Cristofori string players, from your description it seems that they won't need much rehearsal. Until the 19C there was no standard size orchestras, Mozart wrote to his father describing how at the annual Musicians Benevolent Society concert in Vienna one of his symphonies was played by an orchestra of 150. Haydn wrote the Paris symphonies for an orchestra with forty violins and ten double basses

[@lesgoe8908]

The Blowtorch of Doom transfigures inert musical poison (matter) into its aerodynamic petrochemical poison (gas). Music criticism is magic!

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

Indeed. I'm still airing out my living room to get rid of both olfactory and auditory contaminants.

[@davidgoodman6538]

Better hurry if you want this! Most of the used copies are selling at a premium on Amazon right now. And no, I’m not kidding!

[@johnmontanari6857]

Out of morbid curiosity, I listened to as much of the Coriolan as I could stand. It was the funniest thing I've heard since the Dolmetsch Ensemble's "Sugar Plums" at one of the Hoffnung Festivals. Really now, in music and theater (e g., the utterly stupid John Doyle production of "Sweeney Todd" with basically no orchestra), why do these nuts think it's so smart and cool to cut these grand works down to size? If they don't like them the way they are, they should just leave them the hell alone.

[@JEduardoDElboux]

There was an other interpretation in the past that try "to reproduce the first performance with an orchestra with 28 musicians", what do you think about Grossmann / Ensemble 28 performance?

[@dizwell]

I like the talks where I *don't* have to end up spending money! "Sings like a hinge". LOL! (Edited to add: naturally, I had to go check out at least parts of movements 1 and 2 of the symphony, via a free streaming service. It was indeed ghastly. I reminded me of nothing so much as my High School 'orchestra' attempting something, back in the day! I'm astonished any serious musician ever thought this was a good idea, frankly)

[@charlesedwards5302]

Howard, I possibly found the same (thankfully cost-free) 'advertising stream' for this extraordinary CD. Not since finding the 1954 Montevideo 'Walküre' recording - no, don't go searching for it - have I basked in such tonal opulence and expert balance....

[@ammcello]

As defecatory as this realm is, I didn’t mind the tempo of the funeral march. But the scherzo - you really weren’t kidding! and OMG the beginning of the Finale. Thanks for the entertainment. Indeed, it’s a bullsh^t album

[@MorganHayes_Composer.Pianist]

I've heard faster funeral marches eg. Jansons. With that said, a misguided project to put it mildly.

[@zdl1965]

Dave, how on earth did you get these CDs to review? Did the record label send them to you in a hope of being trashed (since bad publicity is better than no publicity)? Or did you have to buy (gasp) for the privilege?

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

I bought it, and torched it with pleasure. It only makes my outrage as a consumer more genuine. Sometimes one will show up as a promo too, but not in this case (yet).

[@austinday3101]

Did you record the torching (in high-quality stereo)? Perhaps a re-sampling of the crackling sounds could be run through a synthesiser to recreate the Coriolan overture? Might easily become a best-seller.

[@markfarrington5183]

@@DavesClassicalGuide ...although they can make attractive hanging mobiles.

[@CREANER]

I laughed so hard at the review but your review only compelled me to listen to it. I'm not sure I enjoyed it as much as I enjoyed your invective.

[@jefolson6989]

The comments are turned off on KZbin for this. I wonder why? I lasted about 3 minutes.

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

I didn't turn them off.

[@EpiKur-wy6yc]

Certainly it is not symphonic, but it is not awful at all. It is placed in a convention of Schrammelmusik, a small open air ensemble playing in Vienna. At least one can hear details of every instrument and the result, although not heroic, is highly musical and original. One cannot call it “generic” HIP.

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

Perhaps, but one can call it disgusting Beethoven. They can take their Schrammel and shove it. They are stupid, ugly, unmusical performances.

[@marknewkirk4322]

There is nothing new about playing Beethoven's symphonies in this way. Every conducting student in the world has conducted the classics with drastically reduced string sections. And every one of them knows it sounds nothing like it should. It's a practical expediency. Why on earth would you make anyone listen to it?

[@niek024]

To me it sounded like a hifi version of an old acoustical recording, so maybe we can train an AI on it, to upgrade Fried's acoustical Mahler 2nd?

[@HeelPower200]

I like chamber arrangements of symphonies as musical experiments. There are some Bruckner and Mahler arrangements like that but they should never be intended as replacements for the original works.

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

@@HeelPower200 This is not billed as an arrangement, no is it one. It's a horrible distortion of the original. That's the problem. Arrangements are, by definition, "arranged"--that is, adapted to the requisite forces.

[@AlexMadorsky]

Looking dapper Dave…or rabbinical at the very least. This sounds like the kind of “concept album” that should have remained a concept, and ideally not even that. What arrant nonsense. So much great opining here, but “the musical equivalent of a groin pull” might be the best thing I’ve heard yet on this channel.

[@johnmontanari6857]

Mr. Schoonderwoerd should only have authentic period instrument dentistry performed upon him. One tooth at a time.

[@OuterGalaxyLounge]

I hope the White Scarf of irredeemable chutzpah is being hung nowhere near the exalted Beethoven's Ninth tie.

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

Not even in the same room.

[@alasdairthomas5603]

It’s not surprising that people try this stuff. I mean, why not? Big Beethoven, small Beethoven, authentic Beethoven, pocket travel size Beethoven…how Beethoven’s music might have been performed by the Symphony Orchestra of the Outer Hebrides. Fascinating scholarship, if you’re into that kind of thing. What is more of a surprise, though, is why someone would expend the time, trouble and money to record and release it on an actual record label. I mean, fine if you think you are on to something and want the rest of the world to hear it, stick it on KZbin or something! Goodness knows all kinds of weird stuff turns up on there…😜

[@JPFalcononor]

They probably thought they needed some sort of gimmicky touch to help with sales since who needs another standard and probably mundane performance of Beethoven anyway?...more marketing than scholarship on these bones... I can't wait for the gushing Gramophone review..

[@joewebb1983]

I've just downloaded it following this total bashing 🤣 I have to hear this! (Maybe I'll regret that!)

[@carlconnor5173]

Good Lord, how ridiculous! But good for some good laughs!

[@mistywalters]

Dave can even get entertainment from bad performances. Lol

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

Of course. It's all entertainment, after all.

[@sergeabud7046]

IMHO the depths of stupidity that HIP could reach was with that ReSound Beethoven series where they went to record in the halls where the music was premiered in order to recreate a pseudo-authentic « period » acoustic.

[@ThreadBomb]

I imagine that might be of interest to people with surround sound systems.

[@user-ol1ib1ss2b]

I appreciate people who destroy their copy of offensively mediocre excuses for "art". Recently read a much-lauded book that was so lazy, dull, overlong, and pretentious I couldn't help but throw it into the fireplace. Made good kindling at least!

[@francisraymond6361]

I just heard something even worse ... Mozart's piano sonatas performed by Mr. Schooderwoerd!

[@daigreatcoat44]

There's a danger that such a damning review will actually inspire people to buy the CD, just to hear the abomination for themselves. And had you thought of a recording of the last movement of Beethoven's Ninth arranged for unaccompanied piccolo? (Period piccolo, obviously)

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

Of course. There's no such thing as bad publicity. Comes with the territory. They should be thrilled to get any mention at all.

[@patrickhackett7881]

It's available on KZbin. I listened to some of the funeral march. It's as bad as you'd expect.

[@loganfruchtman953]

This is abysmal. If Schonderwood wanted to do the Eroica in smaller forces at least do the arrangements by Reis and/or Hummel.

[@michaweinst3774]

Is there any way you could perhaps give us an ideal atrocious Beethoven cycle? (you don't need to use one conductor per symphony)

[@dmntuba]

Those silly French 🎷🎺

[@harmoniaartificiosa]

Well, this criticism is overly sarcastic. Beethoven would most likely have preferred large forces for his orchestral works. But, in many cases he couldn’t muster them, due to financial restraints or indeed because the venue was too small. With this recording anyone can get an idea of what it might have sounded like. No one will force anyone to listen to it let alone buy it. There are thousands of regular recordings by von Karajan, Muti, Rattle and others around for those that prefer the modern sound. Schoonderwoerd fills an empty space in the market. Moreover, there were many keyboard and chamber music arrangements of the symphonies published back then. They were sold and definitely performed too. I have played Hummel’s arrangement of the fifth symphony, for flute, violin, cello and piano and it was most enjoyable. It’s all valuable.

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

No, it isn't. You are completely mistaken. Most of this junk has little if any "value" at all. There is a huge difference between Hummel's arrangement, which is one fine composer's view of another's work created for domestic enjoyment, and a stupid, distorted, abortion of a performance that is wholly unnecessary and which makes a mockery of the composer's plain intentions. If you are a musician, you would do well to learn the difference. There is no "empty space" in the market that needs to be filled; Schoonderwoerd has simply created one that never existed before and has no business existing now, with "empty" being the operative term.

[@utvpoop]

The only thing this guy fills is his pockets

[@valerietaylor9615]

This recording sounds just bad enough that I’d like to hear it once, but I wouldn’t want to waste money on the CD. As for the sound of a flushing toilet - I think they’re overestimating the state of Viennese plumbing in the early 19 th century.

[@michaelmurray8742]

I’m guessing you didn’t like it! Best review EVER.

[@gasparocelloman9852]

The intonation certainly is problematic.

[@classicalemotion]

Schoonderwoerd it's really toilet paper... Even worst than Norrington.... And that's difficult!!! Really horrendous material.

[@LordHaveMercy]

Challenge records? More like Challenged records.

[@HeelPower200]

I just checked a few seconds of this..Its also played with nonexistant expressivity and no vibrato. This does not make any sense for what is essentially the first romantic symphony. Expansive sonority and large scale were very clearly intended goals of this symphony. lol

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

Ya think?

[@TenorCantusFirmus]

My absolute "dream": Schoonderwoerd conducting Beethoven using the same forces he use to use, but with the tempos suggested by Wim Winters. The absolute "pinnacle" of trash!

[@francisraymond6361]

🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

[@dankoppel6271]

Yikes, I just listened to it on youtube. It's horribly out of tune. So I wasn't predisposed against the idea, but the execution is abysmal.

[@ahartify]

Is this chamber-pot music perhaps? Bad joke, I know.

[@Wolfcrag85]

Do these interpreters even know what "to serve the composer" means? Stinky toilet musicmaking, for sure.