REVIEW + DEMONSTRATION of the Pathfinder 2e Beginner Box! (The Rules Lawyer)

EDIT: Paizo has partnered with Foundry Virtual Tabletop (the VTT I use in this video) and has released the Beginner Box for Foundry VTT!
Available at: foundryvtt.com/packages/pf2e-...
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Of all the starter sets for fantasy RPGs, Pathfinder's BEGINNER BOX is the BEST for teaching how to take on the power and responsibility of being the "game master" who runs the game. Here we will see the BEGINNER BOX in action.
0:00 - Opening Statement
2:18 - What's in the box
4:15 - DEMONSTRATION! Starting the Adventure
7:52 - Handling Exploration
9:32 - First Combat
21:55 - Recovering
22:51 - Second Room
23:14 - Using Skills
25:18 - Closing Statement + Reflex Save
28:30 - Limitations, and What's Beyond the Beginner Box
All Pathfinder 2e rules are FREE!
2e.aonprd.com/
pf2easy.com/
Pick up your Pathfinder 2e book on Amazon using my affiliate links below. As an Amazon Affliate, I earn from qualifying purchases which helps me continue doing what I love!
Pathfinder 2e Beginner Box: amzn.to/3eVsUBB
Pathfinder 2e Core Rulebook: amzn.to/3BiFCSj
LIKE & SUBSCRIBE! I'm a lawyer who teaches and runs tabletop RPGs (Pathfinder, D&D, Starfinder) for kids and teens, making videos and hosting events related to TTRPGs and board games.
JOIN THE DISCORD to join our community and The Endless Tale Tavern PF2e campaign! / discord
SUPPORT THE RULES LAWYER PATREON!
/ theruleslawyer
Follow me on TWITTER at: / theruleslawyer1
LEARN PATHFINDER 2E! From The Rules Lawyer:
It's Easy to Learn! A First Combat: • Pathfinder 2nd Edition...
Character Creation - A Breakdown: • Understand Character C...
A Second Combat: • Martials and clerics a...
Tactics & Strategies to Beat Pathfinder 2e's Tough Fights, Part 1: • This Ain't D&D: Tactic...
Tactics & Strategies, Part 2: • Let's Test the "Illusi...
All of Pathfinder 2E's rules are online for free at Archives of Nethys:
2e.aonprd.com/ pf2easy.com/
Music from Ivan Duch's Music Packs (Module for Foundry VTT)
ivanduch.com/
The Foundry modules I'm using here are:
Combat Carousel
Dice So Nice!
Dice Tray
Drag Ruler
FXMaster
Health Estimate
Ilsandril’s Tooltips
Ivan Duch's Music Packs
Pathfinder UI
PDF to Foundry (PF2E)
PF2E F Is for Flat-Footed
Pings
T Is for Target
Token Action HUD
Token Health
Token Mold
Torch
Turn Marker

[@atinybard6594]

the Centipede constantly landing crits with max damage rolls was actually hysterical

[@SubjectTo]

The after school program thing is literally so cool, I'm a librarian and I'd love to do that.

[@russellricker3651]

Why not do it?

[@SubjectTo]

@@russellricker3651 have had some difficulty selling the library on my programs, I got a chance early in the pandemic to do it online but ended up stonewalled.

[@Dlnqntt]

The local library in my area hosts a Sunday morning RPG day (usually D&D). I donated all of my 5e and Pathfinder 1e books to them when I learned about this program. If you suggest it you might be surprised by the support that comes from the community.

[@TheRulesLawyerRPG]

@@SubjectTo You know your library better than I do, any idea what the hold-up is? One idea maybe is to have some prominent RPG themed books/games on display. You can start with some kids who gravitate toward it, and intercept their parents who can be convinced that their kid will really benefit from an RPG. Those parents can be your allies in trying to persuade the library. Particular the Beginner Box - if there's a kid that starts devouring it, you've found a passionate kid who probably wants to run the game! That kid's parents might become huge allies! (My written "pitch" for my afterschool program included them becoming GMs) There are great videos out there on the educational benefits of RPGs that you can find with some searching as well. This is on my contract for the class I run at my middle school. Included also is the description that kids + parents read: DETAILED DESCRIPTION OF SERVICES TO BE PROVIDED: TABLETOP ROLEPLAYING GAMES Mondays: 3:20-5:45pm Wednesdays: 2:30-5:45pm Training students to run and to play tabletop roleplaying games (tabletop RPGs). Organize play groups, encourage and reward creative projects including writing, provide supplies. Student description: What better way to make friends than by working together to escape a trap-filled dungeon, foil an evil wizard’s plan, or steer a starship? Do you want to be a crafty rogue, a raging barbarian, an engineer with a robot companion, or a powerful sorcerer with the power to alter reality? Dungeons & Dragons, Pathfinder, and Starfinder are roleplaying games (RPGs) that let you create your OWN hero in a fantasy or sci-fi world fraught with monsters and magic. Roll dice; describe your actions; go on adventures to earn experience points (XP) that make your hero more and more powerful! Ambitious students can take turns being “game masters,” running the game and crafting the worlds, stories, devious traps, and villains your friends encounter. You’ll be having too much fun to realize you’re learning creativity, leadership, teamwork, mathematics, and problem-solving. Join “The Guild” today!

[@SubjectTo]

@@TheRulesLawyerRPG my department manager doesnt really like the idea, from what i can tell. My request to promote the one time I was allowed to try it (online during lockdown, when i was being paid for a static number of hours, instead of my hours going to fill desk holes) died without being sent on, so i only had my own socials to promote without being aware the library was comfortable with attendance from anywhere and that i didnt need to keep it local. Evidently, this is how management at my library kills things-- by sabotaging attendance through access to promotion. I could try again, this time through youth services but my hours are jeously guarded by the adult dept at this point.

[@johnharrison2086]

5e's major malfunction is not the rules. It's too many "exceptions" to it's own ruleset. 5e even has errata that contridicts it's base system! PF2 is better for beginners because it is designed better. The Beginner's Box Set is the perfect way to start.

[@ad480p]

Yeah, 5e is only more "simple" because it has less rules you need to follow, but that also means you have less clear options and leads to the DM having to do most of the work (same thing with encounter building in that system)

[@DaDunge]

DnD also has a problem in that it's to afraid of keywords. As such it has to either write out everything leading to very big complicated blocks of text or simplify things which end up making them counter intuitive.

[@flavorgod]

@@ad480p What's wrong with that? OSR is ruling not rules.

[@KajtekBeary]

@@flavorgodit’s really high skill floor for new DMs. That’s why there’s a DM crisis in 5e

[@fuloran1]

This video needs a million views. It's perfect. I bought the beginner box, but started to feel overwhelmed when looking through all the other things you can get (bestiary, core rule book, etc). This gives me a ton of confidence and I am beyond excited to start playing with my daughters.

[@neilhewitson1617]

I agree! The Beginner's Box is by far the best product for teaching a TTRPG. I have run both it and the 5e Starter’s Box and PF2 comes away being better at the teaching angle. I had less explaining how things worked with it (the Action Economy being easier to understand). And even though I am an experienced GM, I saw how easy a new GM could run this adventure and learn the things a GM needs to know. Make no mistake, I think the Lost Mine of Phandelver is a wonderful adventure and recommend it to 5e DMs. I’ve even thought of reworking it for PF2. But the PF2 BB is a great starting point for any new group of players.

[@TheRulesLawyerRPG]

Yep, I kinda demonstrated it by showing, but the reference card and all the visual aids (symbols, color coding, etc.) are super helpful in the BB

[@RexCogitans]

I played my first roleplaying game when I was 8, in 1992, at my local after school program. The guy running it made, and soon after published, his own system, the first one in Norwegian I believe. He is still a full time game master, mostly for school kids, runs a summer camp and publishes new editions of his game. It' was a blessed start to my roleplaying life. I'm so happy to hear after-school pnp RPGs run or facilitated by adults are still around in our more digital age.

[@TheRulesLawyerRPG]

I see there's a lot of interest in my middle-school afterschool program! I'm moving my video about that up in the queue!

[@JonasSusara]

Great demo, thank you! Laughing at giant centipede getting caught "flat-footed" after being flanked 😂

[@tavaroevanis8744]

As I think back to my high school years in the 1980s, I would have been ecstatic about an RPG after school program.

[@jjbudinski8486]

I really want to find a 2e group- I've played a bit of 5e and maybe 20hrs of 2e and 2e has a lot more variety in what a PC can do each turn. Weapons can trip, grapple, etc. and those statuses matter. You can feint, intimidate, knowledge check an enemy. The number scaling is higher which is more fun IMO as it seems to balance better as you level up. Little things like different initiative roll types are cool. 5e is simple, but that simplicity becomes really obvious really quick after playing a few characters. Great video btw!

[@TheRulesLawyerRPG]

Join our Discord! We have a shared campaign where people can do pick-up games of PF2 in "The Endless Tale Tavern."

[@sherizaahd]

seems consistent with various RPG beginner boxes that I'm familiar with.

[@Eccelsed]

I constantly argue with people that lament the incredible difficulty of the system. Probably they are only intimidated by 600 pages phb since they display no knowledge of the system.

[@TheRulesLawyerRPG]

Yes, it's a visual obstacle for attracting new players. But an illusory one: Pathfinder's CRB combines the PHB and DMG - the CRB has magic items and guidelines for building treasure hoards, encounters, and adventures. A comparison of the # of pages explaining rules between the 2 systems shows they have about the same number of pages. Granted, Pathfinder's pages are denser. But I'd argue they're also clearer and "sleeker" in actual play. Woe betide players who still must deal with different action types, or 5e's "2 spells in a turn" rule! I hope this vid helps! I consider it a replacement of my 1st video to "teach Pathfinder" now.

[@MrX-ny3jv]

According to Archives of Nethys there are currently just shy of 600 1st level feats in 2e...

[@TheRulesLawyerRPG]

​@@MrX-ny3jv In the Beginner Box, at character creation you choose: -one of 3 ancestries -one of 7 backgrounds -one of 4 classes You don't pick any feats. When you level up, you make one of 3 choices for a feat. Saying there are 600 feats in full Pathfinder doesn't accurately convey what building a character is like. The feats are divided into buckets. If ones goes full Pathfinder 2e rules, the prevailing recommendation is to use the free Pathbuilder app, which organizes the feats and puts everything in organized drop down menus. You can limit yourself to the Core Rulebook (an easy thing to do in the app) and at Level 1 you choose: -one of 6 ancestries -one of 5 heritages -one of 35 backgrounds -one of 12 classes -one of 3-4 "subclasses" at 1st level (if any) -if you're a martial, one of ~5 class feats So the character building isn't that different from 5e, but you have two additional decision points (heritage and subclass), each of which is a manageable number of 5. And if you start your 5e campaign at 3rd level (as most do), you're picking a subclass anyway. Most importantly, in 2e there is almost zero incentive to scour the full list of everything published (which thankfully IS possible because all the rules are free), to look for the 2e equivalents of Sentinel or War Caster or Fey Touched, because the options in PF2e are generally balanced. You can pick based on flavor, and not sweat it. As long as your main stat is 18, you're NOT going to have a character who's sadly underpowered compared to others at the table.

[@MrX-ny3jv]

@@TheRulesLawyerRPG Thanks for the explanation. And yeah, I know I was being a bit cheeky with that comment. I just meant that I get why OPs friends might be intimidated by the system.

[@MatthewCenance]

Is 16 in the main stat enough? For example I migrate to using more official material and want to make a Druid with the Feral Child background that doesn't let you boost your Wisdom to 18.

[@patkelley8293]

I have watched quite a few of these reviews on Pathfinder Basic Box. Pretty good. I can't wait to get it!

[@tabletopbro]

I feel like an absolute donut for trying to Homebrew my first Pathfinder game and not using the BB. When my current Dark Suns game burns out, I'm DEFINITELY pitching this to my players. Great video Ronald! Kudos for the BRoll, it's a pain to shoot.

[@TheRulesLawyerRPG]

Oh yay! If you're doing this I think you should get Troubles in Otari for ideas, but use Abomination Vaults because it has a section that expands on the starting town. I can't think of a better AP for homebrewing around since it's a dungeon and a fleshed-out town.

[@GarredHATES]

Just got my Beginner Box in the mail, I’m excited to play with my nephew and his friends.

[@pergannfiersboise8985]

Cool review, I want to get it now !

[@tiredguy2753]

For the solo players out there , I think the beginner box is a good solo option if you are willing to play more than one character. It kind of reminds of a more in depth dungeon crawler board game. Difficulty wise , this is my first TTRPG so I don’t have anything to compare it to but I don’t think it is very difficult to learn. I never felt overwhelmed by the crunch. Yeah I do have to look up what x spell or ability does, etc… but it never took away from the enjoyability of the game.

[@ottohak]

Your Channel is awesome, thanks for the great content. :) Got my Core Rulebook on Tuesday and I'm in love. *.*

[@TheRulesLawyerRPG]

Yay!! I hope the vids played a part!

[@joel3921]

Solid vid. Currently playing 5e and OSR (Mork Borg). Used to play Pathfinder 1e and am debating about running Pf2e.

[@kryptonianguest1903]

Pathfinder 2e is great and this is a great introduction to it!

[@RobertOw83]

Inspired me to give this a try - thank you.

[@SuperEagle112]

I have been playing and DMing 5e for a cpue years now. And today, about 45 min ago actually, I just bought this box and I am currently going through the contents.

[@kain50144]

Big fan of 4e and this seems like a good replacement considering there isn't an easy way to play 4e on foundryvtt. Good stuff.

[@claudiaborges8406]

Another game that sounds a lot more complicated than it actually is is Lancer. It’s has tactical combat which could take a while and is impossible to do without map or other visual aids but it’s easier to keep track of things than in 5e, it has many rules that are really streamlined, just like the Pathfinder 2e buffs and conditions which were optimized for the same purpose

[@TheRulesLawyerRPG]

I plan to look into it! Tho the theme didn't interest me... should I just look at ICON instead?

[@Forge_n_Brush]

Excellent and well done. Thanks for posting. ~Fritz

[@Forge_n_Brush]

@chad hale Thanks, Chad. Pathfinder has such a great community. Thanks for the sub. ~Fritz

[@Artemisthemp]

I funny enough play the quest giver NPC during my first DM in DnD, granted I later concluded that placing the PC ad the entrence of the quest area and giving them that information as background stuff worked better.

[@pierre-simonhenri5067]

First time commenting. I like your style. Ahahaha! Keep up the good work.

[@snuzzlebumble]

Them centipedes really wanted the healer dead lol

[@TheRulesLawyerRPG]

LOL. It's funny because I needed 88 takes to get that 1st centipede to critically succeed on its save against Burning Hands. (Needed it to show a couple rules.) But the 20s to get those crits were all centipede and on the first try!

[@odinulveson9101]

I will HOPEFULLY convince two of my siblings to at least try a ttrp. I will get this P.F beginner box and the 5e Essential Kit which I have crammed in the Phandelver and Stormwreck Isle stuff into, its then on par with the huge chunk of content the Pathfinder box gives. So I will show em, explain shortly and let them decide on one. I will start with Stormwreck Island for 5e since its thr most welcoming, then IF they choose 5e and like it, bringe it to the Phandelver campaign ( they take a ship to Neverwinter for a good rest etc ) and then to Icespire Peak. If they wont even try either TTRPG 😥.. well I got 3 other groups to play with.

[@roll4stealth671]

for players watching this now, there is also a premium module for purchase which is great and well worth the money.

[@majorzipf8947]

I am about to start a TTRPG after school program for my local kids. We did one 8 week test program with 16 kids. They had a total blast and we learned a lot but I think we need to change things quite a bit for the next program. The proposed start for the next is March 13. Just wondering if you have any suggestions for materials to use or advice on how to create materials. I am barely dipping my toe into Pathfinder, much more experienced with D&D 5e so that's what we're going to have to use.

[@frons79]

Excellent video, btw which module do you use to keep track of players health in the initiative order? I have recently started playing PF 2e (Extinction Curse AP) coming from D&D (1, 2 and 5 ed.) and I was a little scared at the beginning by the apparently more complex ruleset. But by playing it, I have realized that there are a lot more thing to memorize, but less to understand. Probably if I played this Beginner adventure, things would have been a lot easier.

[@NiSE_Rafter]

It looks like the "Combat Enhancements" module (Author: Asacolips)

[@ThumbAndFingers]

Great tutorial! I plan to DM the beginner box adventure soon and just purchased Foundry and Humble bundle. Would you mind if I ask a question - where did you get the large picture of Tamily and how do you show it on top of the scene to your players? I think showing the picture of her would be a good starting point but can't figure out how to do that

[@TheRulesLawyerRPG]

I had a PDF viewer that lets me take out the picture. But you can google her name in Google Images and find it that way too. In Foundry, to show a picture to players, make a Journal Entry and have it be the image and Show it to Players.

[@ThumbAndFingers]

@@TheRulesLawyerRPG thanks a million!

[@ThumbAndFingers]

@@TheRulesLawyerRPG I've tried your advice, but what I don't like is that there's is still darker background around the image and close button. I like how you show it just on top and players cannot close it - do you use a special module for that?

[@TheRulesLawyerRPG]

@@ThumbAndFingers Unfortunately what you see here wasn't done in Foundry - it's the power of video editing!

[@Zakiel97]

poor Kyra can't catch a break

[@TheRulesLawyerRPG]

I know! She he had to be the tank in this one but she's no pushover lol

[@RoninRaconteur]

This is a great case. My question is how do you feel that it differs from the starting boxes for D&D? Since PF 2e has come out I've been very interested in it, but as you said in the beginning I thought may be too complicated for some due to how crunchy it seemed. I personal love the critical system and the three action economy and I actually like the thought of a little more detail and customizable character and the encounters seem to have more substance. I would like to know your thoughts on the difference between the to starters though.

[@TheRulesLawyerRPG]

I have seen (and run) the 5e D&D starter sets. For a brand new GM, they don't hold your hand as much as the PF2 Beginner Box. There aren't reference cards either. However, there is less of a feeling like you need to learn rules in 5e generally which could be less stressful to a new GM in that regard. However, I think it doesn't address the basic issue of asking players what to do, and running a group that the young GMs I usually am teaching are probably intimidated by. The perceived complexity of PF2 I think is kind of overblown - there is a learning curve, yes, but I find the rules more intuitive once you learn them than 5e's. And the Beginner Box gets you over that learning curve. The accumulation of abilities as PF2 characters level up is REAL, however. But your table is learning things gradually at that point. And you can always not go into higher levels if you like the low-level experience.

[@RRSunknown]

DND 5E Starter set have actually best adventure of all starter sets I have seen. It have good story and and quite a contect - so you can play it depending of speed 2 month or even more. You have enough time as a player or DM to get familiar with the game and then you can transition easier to real rules . This is because adventure is showing examples of NPC , quests, different dungeon designs, different role playing oportunities, different encounters - and you learn with examples. The other things in box are not so great - dices, premade characters, very short rule book/ more like notepad/. The other Starter Box - Essential Kit is far more superiours - including double the dices, DM screen, maps, card references for status, NPC /with art/ , quests, magic items, have better rulebook. It have bigger adventure book in volume but quality is questionable especially for beginners. And it again - not have miniatures. In this regard Pathfinder begginer box wins easly both with better rulebook , better expaining - especially in sheets, separate DM book and miniatures - which are great. because playing on Dnd starters set without miniatures is tediuous in every battle .

[@TJVargasS]

This content would be amazing for begginers, which rarely know english. I would like to translate e publish this begginer box in portuguese to achieve more children. Do you know if it's possible to acomplish this officially with Paizo? Or I can create a non-official version from scratch (infortunately reinventing the wheel); this would be possible with OGL?

[@simuno7]

What is this Foundry module to track active token with light circle?

[@cobra1060]

So obviously with whats going on in the TTRP community, I feel this video should get so many more views. So my group has been in 5E for about 5 years and I've been trying to sell them on PF2E for the last year but the arguments keep coming back that they see this as more complex, more rules than 5E and saying they see the PF community as elitest and put down new players especially if you play 5E. Is there a way that perhaps a new video could be done for new people trying to jump ship and convince the group that this is actually a very stable system?

[@TheRulesLawyerRPG]

I've had some ideas in the works! Also, fortunately I think the current migration this has both the qualities of a flash flood AND a river. (Very busy atm)

[@ancientvaults]

maybe the 2nd easiest game to run, or 3rd, but definitely up there. Tunnels and Trolls? Barbarians of Lemuria?

[@ravenshadowz2343]

You said @ 21:35 that the Critical Success was due to the AC, but on that player reference card, it shows DC. So which one is it?

[@TheRulesLawyerRPG]

Armor Class is one type of DC. The +10/-10 rule applies to everything in PF2, including skill checks

[@ravenshadowz2343]

@@TheRulesLawyerRPG , thank you very much for answering my question! I have been enjoying your videos, the way you explain Pathfinder 2e rules and how to play, are so much easier to understand than the book.

[@shanew6738]

Anyone know what mod adds that "uninjured" text above the tokens around 8:15 in the video?

[@TheRulesLawyerRPG]

It's called Token Health

[@laywithrain]

Question. Why is the cleric able to cast burning hands? I thought they could only cast divine spells. Is this a misprint?

[@skullyimp5032]

Comes from the Diety spell list.

[@laywithrain]

@@skullyimp5032 How did I miss that? Thank you.

[@alphajackal6648]

It might be useful to denote this as speaking about 2nd Edition in the title. There are still many players on 1e, so, speaking of them separately can help avoid confusion.

[@TheRulesLawyerRPG]

Thanks, made the change

[@adampender2482]

Greetings. I'm a 39 year veteran of dming 1st and 2nd edition AD&D. Nothing excites me about it now and I need a breath of fresh air. I'm really not interested in 5e bc I don't like WotC. I also love dungeon crawls and that's not the focus of 5e and WotC. Would you recommend pathfinder for someone like me that loves dark, realistic campaigns?

[@TheRulesLawyerRPG]

I think it's definitely worth a try, and my guess with you is that the answer's yes. I just watched a PF2e review by Rottenlead where he said his players who have done RPG for decades said that Pathfinder 2e's "Abomination Vaults" adventure path, Paizo's "megadungeon" adventure path, reminded them of what it felt like exploring an old-school dungeon. I'm not sure exactly what he meant, but that dungeon is location-based (as opposed to story-based) and the dungeon has factions to parley with. If you really like dungeon crawls it sounds like that's worth doing. He also contrasted it to Ravenloft in that Abomination Vaults had interesting locations and things to explore, whereas Ravenloft had lots of empty space. I'm not sure what you mean by "dark and realistic." Arguably, a GM can adapt any system to any tone they want. But it's true that some systems are more conductive to some tones than others. One thing that's been said about PF2e is that it can be pretty deadly and it requires cooperation and tactics among players, and because casters are toned down magic doesn't trivialize encounters past a certain level, and nor do character builds (which can happen in D&D 3.x/PF1 and D&D 5e. Combats stay tense and balanced from Level 1 to 20. Also, because the encounter balancing works, the GM can tune it however they want. Because Level is soooo impactful in PF2, it is not as conducive to a sandbox approach where you can walk into the lair of a monster much higher level than you and get away with it - UNLESS you incorporate more old-school expectations such as many monsters not willing to fight you to the death and allowing for creative solutions for survival. There is also an official "Proficiency WITHOUT Level" variant that is more conducive to sandbox design. However, it's strongly recommended that one try PF2e using the default rules first. Also, from what I've read, Abomination Vaults models making a "sandboxy" dungeon via the default rules, where the party is free to go down if they want more danger and reward. Lastly, PF2 like its predecessor really rewards "kill monsters, get their loot, level up" gameplay because you always have fun things to add to your character every level. Whereas in 5e what you really looked forward usually stopped at 3rd level, in PF2 leveling-up is exciting from 1 to 20.

[@Nick-zd5gf]

Ignore these plebs. 5e/PF1/PF2 won't give you what you're after. Consider anything in the OSR, my recommendations for you are: Dungeon Crawl Classics (This will reaffirm your love for old school rpgs in a more modern system, pretty much exactly what your after) Lamentations of the Flame Princess (BX Dnd that has been grim-darked and optimized, AMAZING adventures) Old School Essentials (Maybe not as necessary, restatement of the BX 1e rules with great adventures that hark the TSR days)

[@frons79]

@@Nick-zd5gf why one coming from the AD&D system and looking for something NEW to play, should get into a mere refurbished copy of the original? 🤔 BTW either D&D 5e and PF 2e would have no problem at all dealing with a dungeon crawling activity, they have the ruleset for that. The problem is not that, but the higher lethality of the older editions compared to the almost hero-like of these newer d20 systems...

[@MatthewCenance]

You're in luck. The OGL controversy last month has launched a new event of players moving from D&D 5e to other TTRPG games. You might be more easily able to get a fresh start now.

[@DaDunge]

I'd didn't think 20s were critical successes in pathfinder 2e?

[@TheRulesLawyerRPG]

They increase the degree of success by one. Generally a 20 at least gets you a success, so it's almost always a crit success.

[@MarsAnonymous]

Did you compare it to fantasy games that don't come directly from the D&D lineage, like Dungeon World or Numenera?

[@TheRulesLawyerRPG]

To be clear first of all, I would be comparing starter products. I confess I'm not familiar with as wide an array of RPGs as you are. I do have Dungeon World's main book and I actually thought it wasn't friendly to someone GMing for the first time. I've heard Numenera is one of the simplest fantasy TTRPGs out there. Generally tho I'm not aware of a beginner product that is as pedagogical as this one.

[@BaronBytes]

Dungeon World is simpler but eh.

[@SalihFCanpolat]

Please! There are many systems like Powered By Apocalypse Games (pick any), Knave, EzD6, OSR (pick any), Savage Worlds, so on and so forth! The only systems that are more complicated than Pathfinder is Rolemaster, Mythras, or Basic Roleplaying. Pathfinder is one of the most crunchy games of all not the easiest.

[@Fruitbat-tb3lg]

For myself, it’s not the size of the book, but the poor layout that I initially found off putting for Pathfinder 2e. At first the layout seems great, but then you begin to realise the amount of term searching that occurs. Over time you will obviously learn these terms, or you may even know them from other systems. Some terms can be an age to find and this gets worse when monster stat blocks are added to the new DMs confusion. I agree that in reality the system is not overly complex. I’ve played far more complex and convoluted systems in the last 30 or so years. It could however be expressed as a complex system when compared to others especially 5e. Being a ‘complex’ system is not always a negative, as sometimes more rules heavy systems can be easier for DMs as they learn. Once a DM gains experience, then the rules light systems can be better, as the DM learns the skill of making adjudication on the spot. For myself , the best two aspects of Pathfinder 2e is character choice and the tactical combat it encourages. D&D 4e is having a resurgence due to it being good with tactical combat.

[@TheRulesLawyerRPG]

Personally, I found the book not hard to navigate, but the fact that I'm a lawyer means that this doesn't necessarily it's easy to most people! Lol. I don't get the prevailing criticism by most people that the book "could be laid out better." I think the problem of relying on the physical book is inherent to the reliance on keywords, i.e., the unity of the system itself. I agree with much of what you say. I do think that the PF2 Beginner Box does a better job though than 5E's starter boxes in guiding a new GM. Oh and I started with PF1 (and was on that side of the "edition war" with 4E), but PF2 has made me interested in trying 4E one day. Interesting how that happens.

[@RRSunknown]

Only problem with this box is the lack of the real adventure book. The included one is extremly basic and short and after that is - go figure it yourself DM . But as new dm you have no experience and is not so easy , especially when you don't have bestiary to get some already balanced monsters.

[@curioustrout]

7 months late, but the Adventure Path "Abomination Vaults" is designed to follow the Beginner Box.

[@503sld]

You can like or dislike a system, but to say that PF2 is the easiest to learn is just absurd. PF2 is such a robust system, it`s not even comparable with 5th. But 5th is much more easier to learn for a newbies, it`s a simple fact.

[@shadowscall7758]

I disagree. For example, a 3 action system is much easier to understand then the action-bonus action of 5e. Most people think (because of the name) that a bonus action is another action, but it's not. It's its own thing. 3 actions is a lot easier to understand.

[@503sld]

@@shadowscall7758 that’s only one part of a very rule oriented system. It’s factual that 5th is easier to pick up and play then PF2e. Don’t get me wrong, PF2e is a much better system. But it’s not easily accessible for a newbie. Just look at character creation. It gives much more thing than 5th at first level. Newbie can easily be confused.

[@jeffjones4654]

I see your Pathfinder and raise you Castles and Crusades.

[@TheRulesLawyerRPG]

I've looked at that before! Is there a good beginner product for it?

[@briansmaller7443]

Simple? Try Barbarians of Lemuria.

[@dee_the_bee3772]

Pathfinder the Best Game ever. Why waste your Time on DnD? Fill your Adventure needs with a breathtaking easy to learn System of a Company that really cares about their playing Community :)

[@michaelmurphy748]

I disagree that it is the 'easiest' to learn. I have GM'ed for 35 years and I am struggling to figure out how magic items work (this is just an example). I will never GM using a pre-existing adventure path (AP) firmly believing the players make the story not the AP. I do agree it is a decent system but please do not try to convince people that it is the easiest. Doing so makes people who are just learning a false impression.

[@Lycaon1765]

The claim in the thumbnail must be a joke, cuz like. OD&D, Basic D&D, DCC, Blades in the Dark, and like millions of other rules-lite systems exist and they are all infinitely easier to learn than PF2 lmao.

[@lorgren4002]

As a game system pathfinder is more interesting than dnd but FR is more interesting than golarion

[@screenmonkey]

Yeah no, the level of complexity of PF is about mid to high complexity while I'd put runequest to low mid. For a true easy rpg to teach is Basic DnD. Don't teach it as THACO, teach it as how much did you miss it by, any DM would do the basic subtraction or just add the AC to the roll.

[@Jader7777]

PF2e core rules are awful to learn for new players and with more overwhelming fiddly rule specifics to learn compared to most TTRPGS. I would never have this be someones 'first' game. That said, the beginner box is so well presented and the rules are slightly more simplified with a great introduction, an experienced game master could run it for newer players with a far more fluid result.

[@simonfernandes6809]

Actually there are any number of D&D alike RPGs easier to learn than Pathfinder 2e - Swords and Wizardry Complete; Labyrinth Lord, Lamentations of the Flame Princess, Dungeon Crawl Classics etc. Etc. 5e is easier than PF2e as witnessed by the fact I had a PF2e refugee at my game who had never played 5e. By the end of the session they said clearly 5e was so much easier to learn than PF2E. So there's that. You can't claim PF2E is the easiest to learn unless you have also tried to introduce newbie's to other fantasy RPGs, including 5e. Are you sponsored by Paizo?

[@spekkiodeumion2491]

The title clearly says easiest to learn TO RUN. 5E is garbage for a new GM as the even the DMG focuses on world building rather than ACTUALLY RUNNING THE GAME. Even the Starter Sets have a "here are the rules, good luck running it!" attitude that kicks absolutely noob DMs up a creek with no paddle. Oh, and your anecdotal experience bringing you to categorically declare what the easiest game to learn is is hilarious. You and your "friend" do not constitute a quorum.

[@clockworkcthulhu8195]

Objection!!! while I'm just a humble not-lawyer which favorite Fantasy game is Pathfinder your premise is flawed sir it's not a binary system there is more than Dungeon & Dragons and Pathfinder and many of them is easier, fiasco which exists in many, fantasy settings, if you want pure role-playing, Roll for Shoes, if you want spontaneous role playing & Goblin Quest, if you want a Dungeon Crawler. if we shall take it as a binary I also think it's depending on the group in a group with a experienced game master and new player I would choose Dungeon & Dragons 5e/4e where the hard part is placed on the game master and I'm also right now playing in a group where there is a person who stalls every time there is a character building choice and I'm worried when they start playing Pathfinder with at least one choice every level. j'accuse Pathfinder is Hartley the simplest fantasy role-playing game.

[@TheRulesLawyerRPG]

Of course it's not a binary. But where is the starter set that is as effective at teaching as the Beginner Box? Much of the anxiety of running one's first RPG is as much about knowing what to say, anxiety about whether players are having fun, or fear of players surprising you. I know that nearly every student I encounter is ready to take on the rules, but are just learning how to handle people. The BB gives a positive first social experience GMing and enables someone to branch out to other systems from there. Plus I think it's easy to underestimate the role of fun tactical battle rules at the table, seeing one's friends having fun, and giving a young person confidence.

[@Eccelsed]

You are not wrong about the first part, there are roleplay "games" that are all about roleplay and takes a few minutes to grasp. On the second take I would argue, I mean are they even playing if everything is put on the Gm (DM)? Will they end up like many famous dms that "just wing it"? probably most of them are having fun, but have they learnt the system?

[@clockworkcthulhu8195]

@@Eccelsed can you play a video game without having the ability to code?

[@Eccelsed]

@@clockworkcthulhu8195 that's just a terrible analogy and I don't mean it to offend really. In a video game let's take divinity 2 for exemple the developer is not the Gm. The narrator is the Gm, the mechanics are the rules, while you the player is the character bound by the mechanics. In a videogame you can't go wrong but neither can you ever be the Gm or change the rules. To put it in a ttrpg prospective the Gm is not the developer of ttrpg (the one who codes)

[@clockworkcthulhu8195]

@@Eccelsed True it's terrible but I see no counter-argument even with what you say if we take the destiny 2 arguments I will still call it a game even if I cannot narrate? my argument is more you don't need to know everything about a game too play it as a game. and a good and experienced Gamemaster can notch you through it, if you don't know everything in your first game.

[@doomhippie6673]

sorry no. PF 2 is not easy. Only if you love number crunching. I literally fell asleep when I heard "because it is a dexterity based weapon the second attack is only -4 and not -5..." No, that is not an easy thing. When you have a character sheet that is has more color than an LSD trip, Skills that can be trained, expert and... I forgot the next level or was it the one before? + some little here and there and oh, don't forget the feats... oh, which you only can use if you have 3 other feats before that.... I was really looking forward to PF2 but it has been a complete turn-off to me (and yes, I have played Rolemaster and found it more intuitive). Rant over. Honestly, I wanted to like PF 2. It was honestly my biggest disappointment of the last years. But to each their own, I say. Do I find d&D 5e easier? Yes. But I am no D&D disciple. There are many, many wonderful games out there.

[@TheRulesLawyerRPG]

Well, at least you gave the video a chance. Everybody's different, but a lot of what you raise can be solved before a game - having your subsequent attack modifiers written out, not taking a feat when you don't qualify for it, etc (Also, I don't think there's anything in 2nd edition that has more than 2 requirements, very few have even 1, and none of them are a "feat chain" per se... you more accurately describe 1st edition). For most people, color aids processing information. You don't have to like PF2 of course if it doesn't click for you.

[@TheRulesLawyerRPG]

@chad hale Of course then you should know that different people will have different things they find difficult. For some, why try something a "thousand times" to access something, when something else serves their needs that they don't need do that for? Not everyone needs to like PF2, and that's ok.

[@DarkinQusitor]

Pathfinder 2edition is a mess, of a game. Lets make 848 feats, and then lets us See if the gamemaster Can Remember them all. The shield rules are a nightmare. When you look at pathfinder 1 st edition, it was good artwork. Not so in 2nd edition. The art sucks. My guess is that the combat wheelchair is on its way, and ITS Much Better Than full plate armor. WOKE culture has infiltraded pathfinder 2 nd edition

[@TheRulesLawyerRPG]

Your 1st edition GM is either a genius or someone is shielding you from the thousands of feats in 1st edition so as not to challenge your brain. 2e's traveler's chair has nothing to do with AC. Your prejudice is showing. If this keeps you away from 2nd edition, I have no regrets.

[@wesyoung9331]

@@TheRulesLawyerRPG brilliant response to the troll under the bridge.