Review: HORRIBLE German Piano Concertos by Reger and Pfitzner

[@nigelsimeone9966]

Hmm. As I wrote the booklet notes for both these Hyperion discs, I got to know both pieces pretty well and have to say they grew on me - I've always had a softer spot for the Reger but my only experience of the Pfitzner until a few years ago was a live performance in Vienna which I didn't enjoy. But immersion in it proved far more rewarding (and even enjoyable) than I was expecting.

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

Well, I've known the Reger for decades and heard just about every version of it--the Pfitzner not so much--but I am happy to hear that there's hope for the persistent. Excellent notes, by the way--informative and sympathetic, as such things ought to be.

[@nigelsimeone9966]

Thanks - and of the other pieces on those discs, the Strauss Burleske is much the most appealing. But I rather like the Braunfels piece too - what did you make of it? (I otherwise only know his opera Die Vögel which is charming).

[@kingconcerto5860]

You probably don't hear this often, but I love your work 🤣

[@AlbrechtGaub]

In 2004, Peter Serkin played the Reger concerto in Hamburg with the NDR Symphony. I am no longer sure who conducted. I wrote the program notes. I found it difficult to say anything positive about the concerto. Reger himself had doubts about the work from the beginning. He wrote to a friend who planned to attend the premiere, "Sehen Sie sich das Werk vorher an, damit Sie gewappnet sind" ("Take a look at the score in advance so that you are armored.") I mean, even then, which listener would seriously consider studying the score of a concerto beforehand because otherwise the music would remain unintelligible? Reger himself dropped the concerto from his repertory (as a conductor) after a handful performances, all of them unsuccessful. I contrasted the concerto in detail with Rachmaninoff's Third, which has all the attributes essential to the "extrovert, even exhibitionist genre of the concerto", and I did so even though the Rachmaninoff concerto "is not considered great music either by everybody."

[@andreashelling3076]

Reger second movement is a gem...

[@bomcabedal]

But then it's only barely a concertante movement - virtually all of it is piano solo. I like it the most of the entire piece, but that doesn't reflect well on the rest of it.

[@kingconcerto5860]

@@bomcabedal You say "virtually all of it is piano solo" as if that is a bad thing.

[@bomcabedal]

@@kingconcerto5860 In a concert, yes. The whole idea is to have the soloist and orchestra battle it out. If you eliminate one of them, it becomes something else. Can be beautiful as well, but that is beside the point.

[@alwa6954]

Oh man, David, please reconsider on the Reger. I love that concerto and no, I'm not pretending and I'm not being a snob. I love it. I have 4 recordings of it. It's a masterful work. The first movement so dramatic and full of angst (and yes, I love the allusions and echos of Brahms.) The second movement is so moving and wistful. Even the third movement "dance of the elephants" is sublime in its quirky jocularity. I enjoy this work and I am moved by it. You could be too if you give it a chance.

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

I have given it many chances, and I like Serkin's recording very much. He makes lemonade out of lemons, for sure, but the work itself is a mess. I'm glad you enjoy it more than I do.

[@ohadnativ]

It is difficult to take this review seriously - Reger is among the greatest formalists of all time. He pushed the motivicism and harmony of the post romantic era to its absolute limit. His music is dense. Requires several listens to parse the orchestration, forms, and harmonies. I play this concerto, and the piano writing is rewarding and idiomatic. The Melodies are complex, but unique. This music takes several listens by design - a lack of investment or musical skills on the listener’s end is not a fault of Reger’s magnificent concerto. Your points in Reger’s sonata form being dysfunctional don’t make sense - extended chromatic tonality does not negate the key center. This is music by and for a connoisseur.

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

Or, it's junk for snobs who pretend to find mastery in turgid scoring, poverty of melodic invention, and gratuitous complexity. I don't dispute that Reger wrote some excellent pieces. This is not one of them. You may not take my review seriously, but I don't find much to take seriously about your comments either--other than the fact that I accept your assessment of how idiomatic the piano writing may be. That's not a recommendation, however. There's plenty of idiomatic solo writing that's still musical garbage.

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

@@jasonclark901 In short, he's mediocre.

[@teeker2012]

The title of this episode killed a small slice of my soul

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

You're welcome. You can thank me later.

[@teeker2012]

@@DavesClassicalGuide perhaps the new recording by Markus Becker will improve your opinion on the Reger Piano Concerto?? Played with the NDR and Weilerstein... It's a damn good sounding recording. Clarity. But I doubt it will

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

@@teeker2012 I never speculate. You never know.

[@AA-vj5tj]

Reger is a composer of excellent miniatures and some good larger scale piano/organ/vocal works remembered quite unfairly for his almost universally overwrought orchestral music and his most antisocial organ works. Reger was a composer that worked best under constraint. Tell him you want a piano suite of pieces no more than 5 minutes, or a set of theme and variations, and his penchant for creating engaging harmonies shines through. Let him do anything larger scale and suddenly it's endless noodling and modulating every other bar. That's why Reger has a violin concerto that's 53 minutes long and a "sinfonietta" almost an hour long. It's almost like he knows what he wants to do but doesn't know how to get anywhere to do it, take the violin concerto, it opens with an absolutely beautiful theme from the orchestra, and when the violin comes in it has a gorgeous theme as well, but in between the start of the concerto and the violins entrance absolutely nothing of interest happens for almost 3 minutes. I will say he was capable of orchestrating though, he has one good orchestral work at least in his romantic suite, he just chooses not to most of the time. If anyone in the comments tried to listen to Reger and got stuck on his orchestral work or his organ works, try his piano works. I recommend Traume am kamin, the 7 silhouetten, or the Bach theme and variations.

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

I agree with all of this--a very intelligent and sympathetic assessment. When I first began listening to the piano works, in particular, I was very pleasantly surprised, especially after slogging through the orchestral stuff. Just another reason, I would say, to "keep on listening!" Thank you for sharing this.

[@pandude53]

You might want to examine Reger's 6 Intermezzi which are quite charming and uncharacteristically virtuosic with strong hints of the Brahmsian

[@alanbroadbent4551]

Mahler was enjoying a coffee with friends when Reger and his disciples walked into the coffee shop. "Here come the contrapuntalists," he snickered.

[@Cesar_SM]

Curious anecdote!

[@martinhaub2602]

Well, count be among people who like dysfunctional piano concertos, but I enjoy both. Far more than any concerto by Mozart, Haydn, Mendelssohn...Pfitzner's Kleine Symphonie is a delight - far from what you will expect.

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

I didn't suggest that everything he wrote was bad--as i said, I enjoy some of his songs and a few other things, but in general with that crowd the more ambitious and "deep" he tried to be, the worse he got. It was a similar situation with Victorian sacred oratorios--the words guaranteed a level of sanctimonious, pseudo-profundity even if the musical setting was irredeemably bad.

[@tedpiano]

"Parsifal without the laughs" 🤣🤣🤣

[@davidecarlassara8525]

I like a few Reger pieces: the Telemann variations, the clarinet quintet, the Hiller variations, but with a lot of Reger I have a few problems...

[@AlexMadorsky]

I think Serkin’s performance makes the Reger greater than the sum of its parts, adding a bit of passion to the austerity you mention. That said, the Reger was a “once is enough” listen for me.

[@maniak1768]

When I started studying music, I used to dislike Reger. Now, even if I don't like all of his pieces and even though I see his short-comings (e.g. the observed 'all of the instruments play all the time' problem or even more so his weird habit of ending phrases in diminished chords, a friend of mine noted, after looking at manuscripts of Reger that Reger apparently designed most of his miniatures in this lazy variation form that he could finish a piece spontaneously right when he ran out of sketching paper), I can respect Reger as a musical genius. He could actually be raw and inhibited. But considering Pfitzner, I agree, I HATE his music and I always will.

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

I like a lot of Reger too, just not that work.

[@maniak1768]

@@DavesClassicalGuide Thank you for clarifying that, but I think your observations were nuanced and careful enough to carry that. Perhaps it was myself who sounded somewhat too negative in general. It is actually Reger's piano and organ music that I find the most enjoyable. But even thinking about Pfitzner made me a little grumpy... May I add that I just recently discovered your channel and enjoy it a great deal.

[@davidhickey1182]

I asked for your view of Reger and his piano concerto, and I really got it with Pfitzner included that beautifully fills out one of my favorite of your broadcasts. Thanks!

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

My pleasure, sort of!

[@MagnanimousDominion]

Interesting review. Whilst I am a big fan of Reger in general, including most of his orchestral works - especially his brilliant Variations and fugue on a theme by Mozart, which is amazing, and I also love his choral works, particularly Psalm 100, Gesang der Verklarten, and his orchestral songs “An die Hoffnung” and “Hymnus der Liebe”, and quite a few of his works in general, I agree with you that his Piano Concerto - in fact all of his concertos - have serious issues, especially with interpretation. With Pfitzner, I am definitely not the biggest fan, but for some reason I really enjoy his symphony in C sharp minor and in fact this concerto when played by Christian Thielemann. To me it’s all about whether the conductor can embody that drama inherent in the notes, without the conservatism that, as you correctly say, holds the music back and makes it sound bitter and even a bit dull. Pfitzner has some amazing moments, but Richard Strauss he was not!

[@Zezahn]

Dodgy, quite heavy, difficult to memorize, not immediately appealing? Yes. Horrible? No, I don't think so. For example Pfitzner's secondo movement is to my ears not bad at all nor dead in the water, quite lively instead. The art music repertoire is full of pieces that are not instantly memorizable and tend to meander, Reger and Pfitzner's concertos are not the only nor the worst offenders. Unless, of course, one particularly dislikes their musical (and, at least for one of them ethical) style. I understand the time investment argument since time badly spent will not come back to us. Unfortunately, being a curious music lover, that is a risk that one has to be willing to take.

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

Of course! And having taken the risk, one is then free to share the results with others, and perhaps save them from an unnecessary waste of time when there's so much else from which to choose.

[@Zezahn]

@@DavesClassicalGuide I guess so.

[@cpeters6494]

Tardy to the party, but I'd still like to add something to the discussion, based on my personal experience with Reger (Pfitzner I don't know at all, maybe I should try some of his music, but life's too short...) To us organists, Reger is something like a monument, a landmark in the line of Bach, Mendelssohn, Franck, Rheinberger, Widor, Reger and Messiaen. And more than Mendelssohn he's credited for integrating the baroque spirit of Bach into the late-romantic style. And you know what? I dislike his organ music with a passion. Not because the music is bad, but because - in my view - he doesn't understand the organ. Just like he doesn't really understand the orchestra. He disregards the true essentials of the instrument, which is terrace dynamics and contrasting manuals ("works") and tries to turn it into a massive single unit crescendo-machine. It's a kind of treatment that's completely unidiomatic. Of course, the resulting music can be impressive, even overwhelming in the right hands, but I will always prefer romantic music that respects the limitations and true quality of the organ. Like Rheinberger. Call me weird. Seen in that light, I agree with Dave's view of Reger being a composer who wasn't really at home writing orchestral music - but not because he couldn't orchestrate (he could if he wanted, see below) but because he applied the same composition methods in every genre he got his hands on, and tried to shape the medium so it fitted his needs - instead of respecting the characteristics of the medium and using them of it as a source of inspiration, as most other, more versatile composers tended to do. Of course this is a big generalization, because as others have pointed out, Reger did write some successful orchestral music. It's just that his piano concerto is not a great example. It has Reger applying his trademark keyboard writing to the whole of the orchestral score, so you get the orchestra kind of doubling down on the chromatism and dense counterpoint of the piano part, instead of offering textural contrast. In that sense it's indeed kind of a failure in his oeuvre. I find the violin concerto, with its more "open" sound much more satisfying - maybe because the violin part is a single line of music, and the orchestra doesn't just function as a stylistic duplication of the soloist's music, but provides meaningful contrast on its own. It has been said here that Reger's most successful works are those where he use themes by other composers, most significantly in his variation works, for orchestra or piano. I can agree with that (Reger's own themes are indeed not very remarkable - probably not because he couldn't write good themes, but because it didn't interest him. He wanted material to work with that suited his needs as a contrapuntist, and those weren't necessarily catchy tunes). But there's one orchestral work that's virtually unknown and that came as a shock to me when I first heard it: the "Symphonischer Prolog zu einer Tragödie", op. 108. An absolute masterpiece, dramatic and gripping, basically a one-movement symphony, written in a huge expanded sonata form which is much more formally succesful than that of the piano concerto. I'd call this piece worthy to be compared to the works of Strauss and Mahler. It even has melodies! And yet, we do have only one (1) complete recording of it, and another one that's cut. It just beggars belief. If there's one piece that could "convert" people to Reger's cause, it's this "Prolog".

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

Thanks for bringing you personal experience to the discussion.

[@cpeters6494]

Thanks Dave, great to see you monitoring the comments of even your old videos! I mentioned Rheinberger, who's in my view a still misunderstood genius. Any chance of including his music in one of your chats or reviews? His organ music is famous (yet still controversial), but there's so much more - for instance his piano works, which have been collected in a big box, and which amaze everyone who hears them. It's not bargain basement Brahms, Rheinberger has a distinctive personal style that's as easily recognizable as that of, say, Franck. Something in the way he crafts his melodies and the textures of his accompaniments. I sometimes play his 2nd and 3rd piano sonata, such great music. There's his orchestral music too, only a handful of pieces, the piano concerto and the two organ concertos have been recorded a couple of times. And the first symphony "Wallenstein", at least 3 times, fun piece that is. But I think his best orchestral piece is the 2nd symphony "Florentiner", one of those unjustly neglected 19th century masterpieces. It's sunny and uplifting and unlike Reger, Rheinberger knew how to write catchy tunes. That beginning of the symphony alone, with the timpani hammering down the rhythm, makes you want to jump up and dance! And still we have only one single recording, which is pretty mediocre (by Alun Francis, I usually respect him for his pioneering work but here he's just stuffy, slow and dull).

[@artoflatraille]

Yes, there is dull music by these two composers and the review is insightful and witty, but I keep thinking from experience, Reger's "A Romantic Suite" for orchestra is luminous, melodious and delicately scored, a surprisingly poetic work, and Pfitzner's "Symphony in C" is only 15 minutes long, in three movements, and really quite memorable and dramatic. Of course, don't take my word for it, please give both a listening. You might still dislike the late romantic style, but the music in these works is imaginative.

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

I never said that either composer didn't write some good music, but that is not the subject of this video.

[@nikolaynadirashvili3907]

Thank you, David! I have two thoughts on what you've just said. Concerning Reger, I think the key (no pun intended) to understanding his work is reading Freud's "Beyond pleasure principle". Secondly, you have just proven, that there is no such thing as bad publicity: I am definitely going to check out Pfitzner's concerto! 😂😂

[@Scriabin_fan]

I guarantee you I can write a worse piano concerto than these.

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

I believe you.

[@michaelhartman8724]

For the Pfitzner Pfan club (like me), don't forget there are quite a number of Pfitzner songs on CPO label (5 disks) and others with some outstanding artists. Dave: how about some presentations about lieder and art song in general?

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

Possibly. Thanks for the suggestion.

[@jlaurson]

Where do I get a membership card? The Eichendorff Cantata is a piece I absolutely love. I admit that the piano concerto sounds like Arno Breker turned into music, but there's so much in the chamber music that is worth listening. And Palestrina, well... it's greater than it's good. I think Thielmann could bring it to life; sadly my only live experience has been with Simone Young and that was manifest tedium. ionarts.blogspot.com/2009/01/ionarts-at-large-pfitzners-palestrina.html ("One of the problems of “Palestrina” is that there is too much text for the music and too little action for the text. The first act, 100 minutes, is overlong and its drama moves tediously. The next act sounds and reads like a secular second coming of Die Meistersinger...") Petrenko, thankfully, does it very well in his Frankfurt performance, captured on Oehms. ionarts.blogspot.com/2012/12/best-recordings-of-2012-7.html

[@michaelhartman8724]

@@jlaurson I have a hi-def bluray of "Palestrina" sitting on my shelf of a video Simone Young did in some god-awful Eurotrash production. looking forward to having a look after listening to a flock of Hurwitz recommendations To me this is proof that there is some interest in the opera.

[@jrgptr935]

​@@michaelhartman8724Der Palestrina (Gedda, FiDi, Donath, Faßbaender, Weikl usw) läuft bei mir ziemlich oft und bereitet mir viel Freude. I play Palestrina (Gedda, Fischer-Dieskau, Donath, Faßbaender, Weikl etc.) quite often and I enjoy it very much.

[@barrygray8903]

I enjoyed this discussion very much even though I have never heard the works you mention (probably for the best). I'm thankful to know I can avoid these concerti with confidence.My sole Reger recording is a CD with the Hiller Variations and the Bocklin Suite, performed by the Royal Concertgebouw under Neeme Jarvi, on Chandos Purchased out of curiosity, the disc presents decent performances of music that I don't find terribly interesting (for some of the reasons you discuss). I have nothing by Pfitzner.

[@bomcabedal]

The Pfitzner is quite interesting to listen to (and I like it way more than Reger's) even if it's not the summit of entertainment. Braunfels is fantastic, though, and the neglect his piano concerto (the "real" one) has received is borderline criminal. Now that's a glorious piece!

[@allthisuselessbeauty-kr7]

With respect, surely the only way to know if you like a piece, and form an opinion on it, is actually to hear it?

[@jrgptr935]

Nichts vom Pfitzner? Nichtmal die Drei Vorspiele aus Palestrina? Da ist Dir schwer was entgangen, kann ich Dir sagen! Nothing from Pfitzner? Not even the Three Preludes from Palestrina? You've really missed something, I can tell you!

[@williamsmith5549]

I'm a clarinetist, so I've played both Reger sonatas, and they are certainly....um....exhausting...???....I guess....??? I do find it intriguing that a whole powerful cult of Bruckner exists, while Reger is basically an oddity, and Pfitzner is totally ignored -- for my tastes, all three of them belong to the same school of gloopy stew for the ears. I do think a really bold and creative opea company could turn Palestrina into something seriously hilarious...anyway, thanks as always for another great video

[@vaclavmiller8032]

To all those in the comments offended by David's rather amusing invective: the world would be a much more boring place if critics weren't to criticise works that any one of us should happen like - it shouldn't do the works themselves any harm, nor should it prevent you from enjoying them (unless you are convinced of their lack of artistic merit and end up refining your taste). There's no need to be so perpetually earnest and self-righteous.

[@vaclavmiller8032]

@@thomasroth4533 I'm not suggesting we take David remotely seriously.

[@patrickcrowley9523]

Vaclav Miller - Amen brother!

[@megabugginout]

I have a love hate/live view of David. He stirs the pot and he is sooo funny!

[@kristianwinther]

The issue is not in opinion, but in the possibility that people listen to someone’s moronic concept which results in further ignorance and neglect.

[@pianomaly9]

I've said this on an earlier one of your posts, but long ago I pegged the Reger and Pfitzner as the worst piano concertos I've ever heard. I may have to eat the broccoli and listen again someday. And I listened to Pfitzner's opera Palestrina once and had no desire to hear it again.

[@jrgptr935]

Der Palestrina ist ein wundervolles Werk, so richtig was für die Seele (sieht man von den vielen Baßstimmen ab). The Palestrina is a wonderful work, really something for the soul (apart from the many bass parts).

[@waverly2468]

Yes, you're right, those concerti are hard to listen to. I was hoping for them to be as good as the Rubinstein Piano Concerto #4. BTW I highly recommend the documentary "All Things Must Pass" on you-tube, which is a documentary about Tower Records. I went to my local Tower every week during the 80's when the entire repertoire was being re-recorded in digital.

[@BorjaVarona_at_YT]

I think that they are excepcional and marvelous works ... compared to Furtwängler's monstruosity ... I guess I agree with you

[@wardropper]

Many years ago I studied in Munich with Erik Then-Bergh, who recorded the Reger with Hans Rosbaud and the SWF Symphony Orchestra Baden-Baden. I think that early stereo recording probably did as much justice to the work as is humanly possible. Then-Bergh even tried to persuade me to learn it, but I was saved by an offer to play Brahms No.1 that same year - otherwise I would have found myself in the uncomfortable position of having to reject a suggestion from my marvellous, but strict, piano professor… Dave, you feel there are no melodies in the work, and I would agree. But we do actually get something else instead: Motifs. In this case, promising bits and pieces of musical phrases that go nowhere...

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

Lucky us!

[@feskoegaffney9177]

Dave. Off topic but if you haven't already done so would you do a comparison of the recordings of the Bartok concerto for orchestra? Thanks.

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

I have done it a while ago. Check out the Bartok playlist.

[@mgconlan]

I'm afraid we're going to have to agree to disagree about Reger. I know him mainly as an organ composer, and as a writer for orchestra he tended to treat the orchestra as if it were a giant organ (a criticism often made of Franck, too), but I just came to this page after hearing two incredible performances of the Reger concerto and found myself thinking, "Why does he think this great music is terrible?" While I wouldn't want all. music to sound like this, I like the overall massiveness of the piece (I've often joked that if there were such a thing as "heavy-metal classical," Reger would be it) and the nice bit of ragtime that opens the third movement and gives the piece some badly needed lightness. I haven't heard the Pfitzner concerto, but I have heard Furtwängler's "Symphonic Concerto" (a piece you dissed in this post) ini his own performance from the Berlin Philharmonic wartime broadcasts box, and as with the Reger I quite liked it even though it's hardly a masterpiece and it's easy to hear why ht hasn't made it into the standard repertoire.

[@vaclavmiller8032]

I agree that Pfitzner's piano concerto is pretty unsuccessful (indeed almost unlistenable), but his violin concerto is rather lovely. Also, there is a lot of wonderful Reger: the cello suites, the Telemann and Bach variations for piano and the Mozart and Beethoven variations for orchestra are very good examples (though Reger is best when restrained either by a certain sort of 'neoclassicism' or another composer's material).

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

I agree with this view of Reger; makes great sense to me.

[@ftumschk]

I just listened to the previews of the Pfitzner concerto on Hyperion's site and compared them to the Braunfels Nachtstücke. Even from the snippets I heard, it became immediately apparent that Braunfels seems to have had far better ideas. Hardly surprising, as I like Braunfels' opera _Die Vögel,_ and listen to my one-and-only recording occasionally, but I've got two versions of Pfitzner's _Palestrina,_ neither of which I've revisited after my first listen.

[@providence51]

Frankly I’m glad because I am trying to catch up with all the new composers you have brought to my attention lol!

[@organist2012]

Reger's best works are for organ. Works for instance opus 57, 73, 127, 135b are his most personal en belong to the most heartbraking ever written.

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

That's a good thing?

[@pandude53]

Ruthlessly and VEHEMENTLY disagree about BOTH PIECES!! I have never played the Pfitzner but I HAVE played the Reger and though it isn't his best piece it certainly isn't his worst. The second movement is the best of the three movements with the chorale quotations but there are moments of greatness in the last movement and very Brahmsian piano writing. Reger can best be described as a South German Brahms and was considered by Hindemith to be the last great giant and considered by Schoenberg to ne the greatest contrapuntist since JS Bach

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

And yet, the concerto still sucks.

[@hyseo1121]

Reger is the greatest composer without good melody. I know his many works are very challenging. Anyway I have many cds of his works and have listened to them with pain. I like him though.

[@wolfgangknuth104]

Such bullshit!

[@timotheuspeter734]

Do you dislike e.g. Palestrina overall? I like the preludes to act I and act III, the finale to Act I and I think Pfitzner at times achieves an ‚archaic’ sound that I really like - do you consider this music badly written?

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

No. A joke is a joke.

[@timotheuspeter734]

@@DavesClassicalGuide Haha, but with (more than) a grain of truth in it.. while listening, I often ask myself whether what I am listening to is "good" or "right" (in the cases of Wagner, Pfitzner etc. especially), so maybe, not taking things too seriously, like you do, is the right approach. Thanks.

[@parsa.noroozian.counselling]

Out of curiousity do you hold any of Reger's works in high regard? All of them Ive listened to thus far were super dense in texture

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

Yes, several actually. Maybe I'll do a talk about the good ones at some point.

[@howardmcclellan2022]

You mentioned the Furtwangler concerto. You will know that the work is just over an hour long and with a 32 minute slow movement (marked "Schwer, Pesante"!) to get it it off to a flying start (or not!). I like WF's Symphonies but the Piano concerto is hard-going.

[@jrgptr935]

Die Symphonien WFs gehören ja auch nicht gerade zu den kürzesten... WF's symphonies are not exactly among the shortest...

[@carlosshosta9040]

On the other hand, Pfitzner´s Violin Concerto is marvelous.

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

Don't kid yourself.

[@imanuelgarayar]

Cello concerto in A minor is awesome!

[@bertranddaldy9748]

Very entertaining video. As you say, there are lots of unfairly neglected pieces out there and you have already highlighted some in your previous talks but it’s good to be reminded that not everything designated “classical music” is always wonderful. How about a video on a much better composer such as Atterberg?

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

There are many much better composers, and I look forward to talking about a lot more of them!

[@bertranddaldy9748]

I look forward to them! I

[@jrgptr935]

😮Atterberg! Er mag ein beachtlicher Komponist gewesen sein (tatsächlich war er ein solcher), aber ein Blick auf seine Persönlichkeit ist nicht weniger unerfreulich als bei Pfitzner und zwar - soll mans glauben? - aus genau demselben Grund und genau wie bei Sven Hedin und Knut Hamsun und Kirsten Flagstad. Atterberg! He may have been a remarkable composer (indeed he was), but a look at his personality is no less unpleasant than Pfitzner's, and for - would you believe it? - for exactly the same reason and in exactly the same way as with Sven Hedin and Knut Hamsun and Kirsten Flagstad.

[@johnandrewwindham6084]

This may predate you slightly, but I remember in Hi Fi/Stereo Review a segment called "Ten Composers I Hate." After all the years I still remember Flanigan: "That absurd, sterile, neo-baroque contrapuntal virtuosity." I'm sure if the composer had had access to the review before him, it soon would have been behind him.

[@TenorCantusFirmus]

I admit I have some taste for the horrid, I use to like talking about the chaff even more I do for the wheat...

[@SaintSaens0]

This is amazing content!

[@guitarsupport]

Hmmmm, yes.....still being a reger fan (Choral Phantasies for organ, some piano music) I absolutely agree with what you are saying about the f- minor concerto. Reger wanted to do too much in that piece.

[@apointofinterest8574]

Can we add the Busoni concerto to a the list, re-titling it: "Horrible European Early 20th Century Piano Concertos"?

[@kingconcerto5860]

Interesting that you mention the Busoni concerto. I started a thread on a classical forum a few years ago called "Disappointing pieces with incredible introductions" or something like that, and the Busoni and Reger piano concerti are the two pieces I named. I think the introductions to both pieces are spectacular- the entrance of the piano in the Reger 1st movement being one of the most powerful moments in the entire repertoire IMO... I don't listen to the Busoni as often, but again just like the Reger- it begins with that fantastic, powerful orchestral introduction with an absolutely epic piano entrance; but it gets off track pretty quickly after those first few bars of C major chords. I have grown to love much about the Reger concerto though, but I'll admit it has it's problems and I *usually* only recreationally listen to the 1st movement as a standalone piece.

[@pianomaly9]

I like the Busoni Concerto, but it seems to me that he just might be parodying the romantic piano concerto style in at least the first movement. Busoni was a genius, but as a creator took his cues from J.S. Bach, W.A. Mozart, Liszt, and Italian modernism. Admittedly he's not that inviting, though I do appreciate much of what I've heard. The Fantasia Cantrappuntistica is a tough listen. Raymond Lewenthal described his music as "bizarre, polyglot".

[@murraylow4523]

Do you like Reger’s Serenade for orchestra? I dislike both this and his violin concerto but that’s a delightful surprise. As for Pfitzner, well, sometimes (and I am very reluctant to do this) no-platforming is the way to go. Because I know Thielemann is a fan and has tried to revive, I just have never bothered to listen to or purchase any of his recordings as a result. Not that I have the sense that Thielemann is all that anyway but he is all a bit redolent of a small part of the moneyed German elite that is resistant to confronting some important things.

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

I enjoy a lot of Reger's orchestral music, actually. It's just problematic and I don't feel like listening to it very often.

[@samlaser1975]

To paraphrase Mark Twain " (the piece) is better than it sounds..."

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

No, they aren't.

[@maxreger91]

I admire your reviews and sense of humor! I disagree about your complaints about the handling of sonata form and chromaticism, though. There is more to sonata form than tonal drama - Reger's music easily satisfies the demands of sonata form. I agree with your criticisms of the orchestration, but the Reger concerto has merits: a beautiful and profound slow movement, and a highly dramatic first movement (the last movement is indeed a letdown). But we need more Reger reviews from you! Do you know the excellent recording of the complete quartets by the Drolc Quartet?

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

Of course there is more, but without tonal drama there is nothing but a formal shell.

[@leslieackerman4189]

Reger is definitely an acquired taste. Very Germanic.

[@jrgptr935]

Bitte nicht germanisch - deutsch genügt: lebensfroh + lebensvoll + großzügig, aber dennoch präzise. Please not Germanic - German (=deutsch) will do: cheerful + full of life + generous, but still precise.

[@jonathanadkins5738]

The Djabadary is beginning to sound tempting.....

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

At least it's fun...once...

[@hbicht5051]

Reger was unable to write a good melody but some of his organ music is pretty cool. I like his chorale fantasias for the organ, which have the big advantage that they're based on tunes not by Reger.

[@MorganHayes_Composer.Pianist]

and the Bach Variations (solo piano) are another jewel in Reger's output. The trick seems to be, to not approach it with excessive reverence. I remember a pulverising performance by Jonathan Powell which gripped me.

[@wolfgangknuth104]

Another bullshit about „Reger wasn‘t able to write a good melody“…

[@JoelAWeiss]

"Parsifal without the laughs" is fabulous.

[@megabugginout]

I do think Reger can be chromatically excessive at times, but I would not call this piece horrible, but rather the chromatic density tends to make it a difficult listen. It is not a piece I am rushing to listen to, but I love the fact that Reger was trying to exhaust all possibilities within traditional harmony. I consider him the chromatic martyr. 😁😁😁

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

In other words, it's horrible.

[@megabugginout]

@@DavesClassicalGuide God, you are brutal....🤣🤣🤣🤣😂🤣....

[@jlaurson]

The Pfitzner PC recording to get, if that's the phrase one wishes to use, is that of Tzimon Barto and Christian Thielemann. That musical odd couple makes the absolute very most of what's there.

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

Alas, it's simple math: 2X0=0, nevertheless.

[@davesmusictank1]

THANKS FOR THE LAUGHS!!!!

[@bomcabedal]

For Pfitzner, his PC is on the (relatively) jollier end of the spectrum, and I admit to enjoying it sometimes despite the fact that it rather suffers from expectations unmet (after that grand opening). Overall, even the nazis weren't conservative, embittered and miserable _enough_ to play Pfitzner's music most of the time. Still, I greatly prefer either the Reger or the Pfitzner to the Marx PC. Talk about dense.

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

I hear ya.

[@kingconcerto5860]

This is unfathomable for my feeble brain... The Pfitzner doesn't do much for me, I really like the Reger, and the Marx is a very strong contender for my single "desert island opus"... If you haven't given the Marx a proper chance, don't give up on it- if you're a connoisseur of piano concerti I promise it will become one of your favorite works with a bit of repeated listening.

[@bomcabedal]

@@kingconcerto5860 I've given Marx' Romantisches Klavierkonzert a number of chances, but it's just too laborious and dense for me. Castelli Romani, on the other hand, now there's a fun piece!

[@johnsimon8438]

Pfitzner's Piano Concerto is truly appalling, like his grotesque moustache.

[@WolfGratz]

I must admit to owning Palestrina but have never plucked up the courage to actually listen to it.

[@pianomaly9]

It took me a while to dutifully hear it, but have no desire to do so again.

[@haldentoyorganist3896]

As someone who adores Reger, I would agree that his orchestrations are usually quite, dreary. Even though I love the Piano Concerto, it definitely is a dud...

[@griselidis1]

Umm...I get the impression you're not keen on these concertos. I'm not a fan of Reger's either but I think you're very hard on the Pfitzner. Have you heard Volker Banfeld's recording? His is a volatile and exciting performance which makes the best of a concerto which can seem rather turgid. The only drawback is he makes a couple of short cuts. Nobody plays the big cadenza quite like he does!

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

No, I am not keen on them, and I have tried, multiple times. I stand by what I said. Yech!

[@griselidis1]

@@DavesClassicalGuide Right! Thanks for your astonishingly rapid response! I do quite like Pfitzner's concerto though it is not a match for his splendid violin concerto.

[@griselidis1]

By the way, do you know Fritz Brun's piano concerto? If you do and think it's horrible, this time I'd have to agree!

[@adrianosbrandao]

Helloooo! Yesterday I commented on how much I love Schmidt’s Second. Today I have to say something about his Left Hand Concerto: it’s the most obnoxious thing ever written. It surely ranks alongside Reger and Pfitzner. He’s not German, though. But who cares?

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

As I said...

[@jjgeoffphhcinkkllee]

Reger is one of those that, for me, with a couple exceptions, is only interesting when reading the score. Several Lizst pieces are that way for me too, but NOT Liszt as a whole.

[@henrygingercat]

I've just listened to as much as I could stand of the Reger. Dreadful and probably what being embalmed whilst still alive feels like. However, one has to be impressed by the amount he wrote given that he was perpetually hammered.

[@james.t.herman]

That’s awfully harsh. I’d rather have these pieces than no music. It takes courage to create music and offer it up to public scrutiny. It comes at a price for the musician, emotionally and spiritually, where berating their work doesn’t cost you anything. Maybe next time you’ll name two people you find physically unattractive.

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

Saying that you'd rather have these pieces than "no music" is far more damning than anything I said. There are some works that I agree cost the artist deeply--Suk's Asrael Symphony for example, but Reger's or Pfitzner's piano concertos? Please be serious. That you seem not to recognize the difference says all that we need to know, I think.

[@james.t.herman]

I am a composer myself. Hearing your invective is terribly discouraging.

[@james.t.herman]

The world is a better place for having these compositions. Why would Hamelin have recorded them if they’re as worthless as you say?

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

@@james.t.herman First, if you're discouraged by this little chat then perhaps you're in the wrong line of work. As you suggest, you are offering yourself to the public--and that public owes you nothing. You seem to feel that the onus is on the public to grant you a hearing, when in truth you are asking listeners to give you their most precious commodity--their time--time that can never be retrieved--and it is up to you and composers generally to prove themselves worthy. The world is certainly NOT a "better place" for having this music. That is an utterly meaningless concept. How would it be worse for its absence? In what measurable way? That is exactly my point. All I have done is suggest that a listener's time might best be spent elsewhere. There is no lack of choice. You ought to be happy about that. Someone might instead spend their time listening to you instead of to Reger or Pfitzner. We all have to choose, and if I can help listeners make those choices, I consider that a job well done.

[@james.t.herman]

In what measurable way? I’ll give you one. Two weeks before my 21st birthday I was paralyzed in a car crash. I spent a very long, very dark time afterwards trying to come up with a reason why I should think it was a good thing that they took my mangled body to the hospital and kept me alive, so that I could sit in a wheelchair for the next 50 or 60 years and watch life pass by me, physically incapable of even trying to live a life that I would want. I was either going to find a reason to think that it was good that I was still alive, or kill myself. In the end I decided it was worth staying alive, because even though my life was ruined, there was beauty in the world (for me primarily in the form of music), so it was worth sticking around to focus on that. Had I not learned to perceive beauty in classical music during my teenage years, it’s all but a certainty that I would have killed myself after I was crippled. Music saved my life. It is much, much more than entertainment to me, and its practitioners are much more than entertainers. And that is just my experience; music has a comparable value to many other people. It is something people live for. It makes the pain and tragedy of life bearable, even worthwhile. As for your charge that I think people owe me their time, you are wrong. But I do believe that people owe each other kindness, and your criticism is remarkably unkind. I’ve seen you make the ad hominem error in your criticism of musicians’ work over and over, and today you’ve even done it to me. It’s not enough for you to say that Gardiner’s Beethoven isn’t to your taste; you have to call him an arrogant ass. It’s not enough to simply disagree with me about the value of music; you have to accuse me of thinking that people owe me their time and attention. That is why I find your vitriol discouraging.

[@flexusmaximus4701]

I remember trying to explore Max through the naxos series of his orchestral and organ music. I think I listened once or twice, and decided life is too short. Paul G.

[@Cesar_SM]

The several variations for orchestra and the Tone Poems after Böcklin are really good pieces.

[@charvakaelysium2414]

I agree with what you say about Reger but what about his Op.95 Serenade? Perhaps it's just me but I just love this piece. There was a Bamberg Symphony/Horst Stein recording many years ago - perhaps the only recording - and it just won me over. Pity about the rest of his stuff though.

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

Exactly.

[@joncheskin]

Did not know these pieces, but your devastating review made me immediately curious, so checked out the youtubes. I wish I could disagree with you, but alas these pieces are a snooze. There is more drama in your review than in either work.

[@ThreadBomb]

This video reminds me of the composers I have wasted a lot of time and money on, particularly Taneyev in this case. His music has some nice moments (the slow movement of the piano quintet), but most of it seems to have congealed into what you called "sludge". Spohr is another who I resent for failing to reward my investment. Not as pointlessly dense, but certainly note-spinning to no good end.

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

Spohr is without doubt classical music's biggest disappointment on the whole.

[@VoceCorale]

I've listened to some Spohr and I'll admit, it did nothing for me. Ad for Taneyev: I listened to his piano quintet and I found it a rewarding composition on the whole, not just the slow movement (it certainly requires some effort, though). I'll listen to some other chamber music of his and I hope he does not disappoint.

[@markzacek237]

Gee. I thought this was just good fun. Nothing I’ve heard of Reger tempts me beyond Maria’s Wiegenlied and the Hermit scene from the Bocklin pictures. But that’s more than Pfitzner. Beyond Palestrina, there’s Christelflein - and those kill my interest in looking further.

[@jrgptr935]

Das Christelflein ist besser als sein Ruf, der vom Tod des Kindes in zumindest der Erstfassung herrührt, was Mahler schon bemängelt hat, und was für ein Kinderstück ja wirklich eine etwas grausige Idee und theologisch schwer begründbar war. Aber sonst ist es kurzweilig und nichts dagegen einzuwenden. Das Christelflein is better than its reputation, which stems from the death of the child - in the first version at least - which Mahler already criticised, and which really was a somewhat gruesome idea for a children's piece and difficult to justify theologically. But otherwise it is entertaining and nothing to object to.

[@mikakangasaho1236]

Thank you so much, David for all these great, utmost informative, entertaining and funny videos - all positive superlatives in the same package! Now, how about some great CDs from that wonderfully uplifting section of "CDs from Hell" ?

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

Glad you enjoyed it. The CDs from Hell are ClassicsToday Insider special features, so there they will remain!

[@zorb12336]

Palestrina...Parsifal without loughs LOL

[@littlejohnuk]

had a listen to the Reger - was indeed `chromatic sludge`. I didn't mind the Pfitzner!

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

He'll be happy to know that, I'm sure!

[@hiphurrah1]

Critic Norman Lebrecht wrote about the Pfitzner: I have seldom heard a piece that is so utterly all-over-the-place, so directionless and devoid of purpose that the eye strays to the wristwatch (only 40 more minutes to go) and the ear prays for an armistice.

[@johnwright7749]

I attempted to listen all the way through Serkin’s highly regarded Reger Concerto recording, but life is too short! Glad I haven’t even thought of Pfitzner’s. Thank you for your confirmation!

[@plpmanden]

I completely agree with David Hurwitz on this one. Reger does the exact opposite of the great masters and could learn a lot from Brahms and Mozart. The latter two wrote beautiful, memorable melodies, they never got carried away with the possibilities of a big orchestra , i.e. they used few instruments but to maximum effect. Mozart, in particular,also used chromatism, but in all the right ways... I understand Reger has its fair share of fans, and I must admit that I occasionally liked some parts of his lengthy concerto. Pfitzner on the other hand has no redeeming qualities. I have probably never heard a worse piano concerto (and I have heard a lot). I respect Hyperion a lot and I enjoy many of their recordings in the Romantic Piano Concerto Series, but why it bothered with Pfitzner is beyond me.

[@neilcameronable]

Oh! so glad its not just me.I have tried to like the Reger Concerto.I have the Serkin/Ormandy recording.But i just dont get this work.Your so right Mr Hurwitz theres no melody there.

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

And Serkin's is the best one by a mile.

[@kingconcerto5860]

I've listened to the Serkin recording about 15 times, I've tried to make it my favorite but the Hamelin recording on Hyperion is the one I keep coming back to year after year, for whatever reason. I've said it before and I'll say it again- that orchestral introduction with that absolutely EPIC piano entrance is one of the most powerful moments in any piano concerto ever written, IMO. The Hamelin recording plays the introduction the best IMO and that is the strongest part of the entire work, although the 2nd movement is rather wonderful too. I really do think it's unfair to call the Reger concerto "horrible", and I usually agree with Dave's harshest critiques.

[@kingconcerto5860]

Also I know I'm 3 years late to this conversation LOL but I only discovered this channel relatively recently.

[@spqr369]

There could be a market for these pieces. Don''t forget RAP sells; however with classical music the crap never rises to the top.

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

Sure, I'll bet momma and papa Webersinke bought at least one copy of their son playing Reger.

[@MichaSchlechtriem]

@@DavesClassicalGuide You know that Amadeus Webersinke was a very much respected Organist and Pianist and a very respected Professor at Dresden's Carl Maria von Weber Conservatoire?I find his Reger to be too slow also and don't like this recording much since 45 years.I begun to listen to the Reger and Pfitzner very early and it took its time for sure.But even if I don't like Webersinkes recording it is NOT bad at all and it should be clear that you are listening to a great musician.How long do you know this works?

[@RepertoireSharer]

Thank you for having the courage to say these things about some frankly disappointing music.

[@edwinbaumgartner5045]

Both works are in my opinion hopeless. But both composers could do much better. Reger wrote nice Mozart-Variations and the wonderful Böcklin-Suite. And Pfitzner‘s longest work is „Palestrina“, of course, but his best works are the C-Major-Symphony op 46 (just 18 minutes!) and the ouverture „Das Käthchen von Heilbronn“. In both works, he has real good themes and sometimes even real tunes. I think that neither he nor Reger have been composers with a talent for concertos, because both had no interest in virtuosity for its own sake, but both tried to write in this vein in contrary of their talent.

[@chadweirick67]

As an organ student i was tortured with Reger..thank God to see someone else thinks so to!

[@neiltheblaze]

I've always found Reger's music to be an utter snooze. I assumed it was a "me" problem - and I still think it might be, though I'll thank you for the validation. Any time I try to listen to any of his music, my mind won't focus. I start thinking about anything at all rather than concentrate on the music. I've had to start pieces over because I'll realize I've zoned out with two minutes left and realize nothing in the last five minutes has made any impression at all - only to re-listen and realize, "Heh, there's nothing there! I didn't miss anything!". He's dry, uninteresting, banal in a very sophisticated way - but let's just say If you had synesthesia, he'd be beige. Some of the most unengaging wallpaper music I've run across in my travels.

[@hiphurrah1]

Hearing you say the german tempo indications makes this video another classic. It's dreary music indeed, and seems to go on forever, it makes me long for some fresh air, it's suffocating. The joyless face of Pfitzner matches his concerto completely.

[@hiphurrah1]

The proofs of Acht Geistliche Gesänge including "Der Mensch lebt und bestehet nur eine kleine Zeit", were found next to his bed (when Reger died). Good title to remember while listening to music that's too long and mediocre 😉

[@johnmontanari6857]

Reger's music, like his name, is a palindrome. It sounds just as bad forwards and backwards. Sometime I'll get into my long-time on-and-off friendship with a local musical luminary who recorded every bleeping thing Reger ever wrote for violin or viola -- a dozen albums or so. Once in a while, in weak moments, I'd take one down and try it anew. And each time, I'd writhe in discomfort, like I'd just developed an itchy rash. But for the Concerto, only Webersinke will do. If I'm going to not listen to a piece, I'm going to not listen to the longest, slowest, most dreary performance of it.

[@francoisjoubert6867]

The word which comes up when you describe Reger's orchestral works is "constipated". Great fun discussion.

[@coreylapinas1000]

Reger has no sense of musical gesture.