Review: Thielemann's Atrocious Bruckner Box

Bruckner: 11 Symphonies. Vienna Philharmonic, Christian Thielemann (cond.) Sony Classical

[@peterkelley7160]

I suspect by the end of the year you'll be revisiting this set , complete with a colorful scarf .

[@MrMazzada]

You are not wasting time Dave, by listening and commenting on these records. You are giving us lots of fun and saving our time and money. Thanks.

[@markgifford6291]

Thielemann is a truly great conductor of Wagner. And, as Dave said, his Bruckner 8 on Profil with the Staatskapelle is excellent. Friends, let's not all become Thielemann haters.

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

People become haters because he has no ability to project his strengths rather than indulging his weaknesses.

[@williamsu5552]

Dave is never a fan of Thielemann. Long-time subscribers knew what he had to say before clicking open the video. I personally disagree with Dave that Thielemann is no good and should be avoided.

[@barryguerrero6480]

@@williamsu5552 Be that as it may be, I do think this particular Bruckner set is a real 'bow-wow' and a huge disappointment.

[@grafplaten]

Thielemann has finally left Dresden, where his contract was *not* renewed. I am sure many members of the Staatskapelle had a going away party, to which Thielemann himself was *not* invited.

[@davidaiken1061]

We need a moratorium on Bruckner symphony cycles. And while we're at it, let's call for a Mahler moratorium as well.

[@barryguerrero6480]

You know, as the world's biggest Mahler groupie, and a collector of too many things Mahler, I'll actually sign that treaty. Enough is enough. It's at the point where it's just not doing Mahler any further service. It's also, however, that I just find so much other music far less interesting, but there are many, many pockets of excellence out there too. It does no good to ignore those things at the expense of more Mahler.

[@ftumschk]

14:47 Aversion therapy? Since it's Bruckner, there's the HaasVersion, NowakVersion and CarraganVersion therapies, too.

[@SarahLeizer-fc1jq]

If Thielemann is that bad, then his rise to stardom is even more puzzling than Mäkelä's or Dudamel's. These two triumphed being young, good-looking, mediatic, extroverted... They have exciting gestures when conducting and are fun to watch. They seem to hit it off great with their orchestras, which are apparently delighted to be under their command. The musical outcome may be debatible, of course, that 's another issue. But in Thielemann's case, few or none of the aforementioned traits apply. Extramusical features do not play in his favour. A real puzzle.

[@vjekop932]

Politics maybe, the conservative crowd in Germany and Austria like the repetoire he does, he was also Karajan's protege when he was young (he obviously learned little)...

[@djquinn4212]

Resubmitting the request for the new(ish) Concertgebouw Bruckner box with all different conductors. Jochum, Tennstedt, Haitink, Chailly, Sanderling, Jansons. All live performances. All conductors who know how to Bruckner and not Brrrrrrruckner. Orchestra sounds glorious, great playing, we'll want these to remember how the Concertgebouw sounded before they get neutered by the Ken-Doll Makela.

[@horrortackleharry]

I bought this box-set as an antidote to today's culture of poor quality box-sets... and fell into the abyss.

[@b286guy]

I’m especially surprised at how dull and thin sounding the sonics are because you have the Vienna Philharmonic in the Musikverein which should be as rich and resonant as can be.

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

It's an achievement, that's for sure.

[@eisenaechery7591]

I heard the 8th live and it was so much more rich and resonant than this recording... really bizarre.

[@drymice500]

Were they all recorded at the Musikverein? I thought they did it in part in churches, and then gave up on that idea after a few symphonies?

[@barryguerrero6480]

Right, go figure! I've collected a few of the Y. Sado/Vienna Tonkunstler Orchestra recordings of Mahler that were recorded 'live' in the Musikverein. In contrast to these Thielemann Bruckner horror shows, those are the best sounding recordings I've heard emanate from the shoebox known as the Musikverein, live or otherwise. Again, go figure! They sound terrific, and some of them aren't bad Mahler performances either, in my opinion. I rather like them. Essential? . . . of course not. But they make the point that good sounding recordings CAN be made in the Musikverein. Just steer clear of major labels, apparently. Again, how the mighty have fallen.

[@Italonino]

I took a date to a live performance of Bruckner's 7th, there were no horses in the hall. She tried to catch up on her sleep but the brass blasts kept waking her up.

[@rodrigosanchez4007]

This is probably Dave's most Krausian Review so far - it has it all: raw and relentless truth, calling out Viennese hypocrisy, citing the editorial madness of the music-industrial complex and thereby turning their own arms against them (you got to love the witty ending). Karl Kraus would be proud!

[@dsammut8831]

Brilliantly entertaining!

[@lukestables708]

Great review and as usual very funny (the stuff about the abyss honestly I was nearly in tears over). Totally off the top of my head I feel there's perhaps something here regarding a difference in philosophy between American 'pragmatism' and German 'abyss-staringism' but I totally agree with you that music just shouldn't be used in this way (e.g. as therapy) which is surely at the very least a way the composer never intended.

[@PhillipYewTree]

Thanks for saving me the ££££, as I’ll avoid a purchase 👍🏻

[@bbailey7818]

It sounds as if Frau Blucher's neighing horses are going to have to be augmented by a pack of evervated, snuffling basset hounds.

[@JackBurttrumpetstuff]

Totally agree! He tamps down everything in the desire to be in control.. I heard the 9 th w Dresden and was so bored… and I love the 9th. His 8 th w Berlin in their set isn’t bad… “except when he has ideas…” Well said, Dave!

[@eloysherlockmusic]

Wow…..that was brutal.

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

Not nearly as brutal as listening to the thing.

[@MisterPathetique]

Brutal... but terribly entertaining!

[@MidwestArt]

Here’s a chuckle. Thelemann was one of the names in consideration to replace Muti as principal conductor of the CSO. Last year, he guest conducted a concert and got praised by some classical media outlets, one of which headlined their review with “CSO, Snap Him Up Now,” lol.

[@KCTsangKen]

Seems like Thielemann can only do the 8, but he (or someone else) somehow pushed him to do a complete cycle and recorded music in which he really wasn't interested, just for the sake of making a complete cycle. I think that's not only Thielemann's problem but the cycle phenomenon in general.

[@barryguerrero6480]

Good point.

[@respighi3]

On the "abyss" @ 15:28: Dave...Stop sugarcoating and tell us what you really think! (Love it...)

[@janektreiber9457]

Now the final question: Which one is worse? Gergiev's Bruckner cycle 🤢 or Thielemann's?

[@roberthanff4354]

Gergiev, to me - and after seeing him conduct a dreadful Ring Cycle at the ROH - is the worst conductor around. So I will always prefer T, even if he doesn't drive me crazy.

[@jacquesracine9571]

I never wrote a negative message here or anywhere on any online forum. Thielemann makes make me cringe. And the way he is perched over the orchestras he conducts makes me uncomfortable. The musical results are never interesting or satisfying. I guess we are just not compatible.

[@WMAlbers1]

Luckily just bought the Jochum box 😁

[@stepanio_banderas]

Finally Dave did it. Thanks.

[@LuoTheMusicologist]

Out of the two recent Bruckner Cycles, which one do you think is the worst? - Thielemann or Nelsons?

[@heatherharrison264]

It is always fun to hear about BRUCKNER . It sounds like this box is a nice mix of lackluster performances, poor technical quality, and the occasional disfavored version, so it qualifies for the horsey sounds. I'm surprised Dave didn't have his scarf handy. I guess I should be happy that I haven't heard anything from it yet. I would prefer the sort of BRUCKNER that has better performances and recording quality but with as many disfavored and outdated versions as possible and a messy completion of the 9th to top it off. At least something like that can be fun.

[@nedbates]

Thanks, Dave!! Instead of all the 'casual-ity' you describe, I gather that you mean 'casualty!'' 🙂

[@edwinbaumgartner5045]

Well, Dave, if Thielemann's the worst Bruckner-cycle so far, then, I guess, you missed that Remy Ballot, too, has finished his cycle.

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

That's not even music.

[@roberthanff4354]

@@DavesClassicalGuide😂😂

[@Mooseman327]

"Perfunctory" might be the word you're looking for, Dave.

[@caiofabiomachadomaiadasilv4190]

Yay!! I was waiting for this review, and I couldn’t agree more. Boy, the 7th makes me think “why this people spend their precious money and time recording like that?”. But being honestly, I enjoy the 8th…

[@victormanteca7395]

One has to love those performer quotations that actually say that Bruckner *MUST* be slow, uneventful and boring. And they do it to try and hype (?) their performances.

[@ahartify]

An 'antidote' to life implies that life is some kind of poison!

[@andreysimeonov8356]

I have been patiently waiting for Mr. Klaus Makala's rendition of the entire Bruckner Symphony cycle...

[@gt-lv3zo]

Really ? Why ?

[@andreysimeonov8356]

@@gt-lv3zo Listen to some of his interpretations of the Romantic repertiore and you'll find out why.

[@gt-lv3zo]

@@andreysimeonov8356 i have, .....but i'll try again

[@petterw5318]

Thielemann finally got the Berliner Staatsoper, so he will probably conduct mostly opera from now on. We'll see how it goes.

[@angelosclassics05]

Well if you have read their new season, Thielemann isn't doing much opera. In fact, he is only doing one opera with the Berlin Staatsoper, which is Die Schweigsame Frau. The rest of the season with Thielemann is just orchestral concerts with the Staatskapelle Berlin

[@eddihaskell]

He has some very big shoes to fill if he is going to replace Daniel Barenboim in that role.

[@johnbailey2933]

Poor Bruckner. Reboot your video from a few years ago: "Music Chat: Why So Much Bad Bruckner?"

[@barryguerrero6480]

My, how the mighty have fallen - it's a wonderful and easy box to hate! It's sad that the V.P.O. actually permitted their official seal on the front cover, although it kind of looks as they were also trying to hide it under a gloss. David, I couldn't possibly agree more with your distinction between the character of Bruckner's earlier symphonies - and hence, what they require from a performance to make them work - and the more developed character of his later symphonies (and how you can go about executing those in contrast). I think that's a very astute observation. Anyway, what a failed attempt at something that really should have amounted to something. One of those Linz orchestras on an average day actually sound better. For the V.P.O. the cheaply priced Decca box with tons of different conductors is still the way to go (even though it includes, SHOOOOLTI! [to the sound of your neighing horses]). I'd take the Nelsons/Gewandhaus box over this one. As a final turn of the knife, I can well imagine Rolex handing out unsold copies of these boxes as Christmas bonuses to their employees who are obviously not blind, but might also be deaf . . . . or soon wish they were. Door stops! Paper weights for really windy days. Use them as car wheel blocks.

[@robertjamesstove]

A shame. I have admired Thielemann's Wagner, Pfitzner, and Strauss recordings (I don't know his Bruckner at all).

[@knutanderswik7562]

A symphony as a spa day, maybe. It is an approach, I suppose. Well that is disappointing, I was going to get this for a modern take with a great orchestra but, if the sound is bad, why bother?

[@1e9n4i7gma]

Christian Thielemann joins Simon Rattle on conductors I hate.I have only seen Thielemann with the Philharmonia Orchestra once and that was enough.I can't even bothered to look up the programme.He gave a pre concert interview and he was as dead at ditchwater and his conducting was the same.I have not intention of seeing him again and fortunately I am probably too old.I have not and will never have any of his recordings

[@eddihaskell]

Honestly, I have to rank Simon Rattle a better artist than Thielemann. Rattle does have wonderful abilities as a conducting technician and an artist, I heard him many times when I lived in London and once heard him conduct a very good performance of Parsifal at the Netherlands National Opera. He really turned the CBSO into one of the best orchestras in all of Europe. He is not boring. Thielemann is a schnooze. The few times I have heard him I live I paid more attention to his bad haircuts than to his conducting abilities. I thought it was me, but then everyone seems to have the same opinion of him.

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

I agree. Rattle is much better than Thielemann.

[@JamesNix-xs7bq]

finally the truth about Thielemann

[@LyleFrancisDelp]

Thielemann lost me with his very first recording (I think)...Schumann 2nd. Absolutely hideous. Twisting and pulling the phrases as though he was trying to channel Mengelberg. But in Mengelberg's hands, that approach always seems organic. In Thielemann's hands, it just seemed arbitrary. His following Beethoven 5th was just as bad. I've avoided him ever since.

[@steveevans6241]

Primal Scream therapy! LOL! I have the 8th which like his Dresden version isn't that bad but I tried out his 3rd & it turned out to be disappointing & sounded like the musical equivalent of processed cheese. So glad Dave has tortured himself with the others so we don't have to! Apart from the limp interpretations, the poor recording quality of these Vienna versions & the Nelsons Leipzig ones are just inexcusable today. No doubt the horrors of other misconceived Bruckner await us this anniversary year, but whilst it's a travesty of the music, the advice & comedy value is pure gold!

[@thescientificmusician3531]

Hi Dave! I enjoyed the review. Thielemann is truly overrated. His Schumann is dreadful, but his Wagner is decent, though. I've only heard his Parsifal with the Vienna State Opera, which is reasonably good but nothing compared to the recent Phillip Jordan performance from Vienna. with a superior cast. The contrast is night and day. The production photos represent the worst of Regietheater (It takes place in a prison.). But the audio recording is terrific with the fabulous Kundry of Elina Garanca.

[@timyork6150]

This is vintage Dave at its best. Knowing some of his views on performers, I was expecting him to pan this Thielemann box, but it was done in an entertaining way which exceeded those expectations. This has the perverse effect of making me far more keen to hear some of these performances than do, for example, the Diapason d'Or award and warm words from Diapason's reviewer and from some others as well. I have similar feelings about, say, Mäkelä. I don't have a lot of Thielemann in my collection, just some Beethoven and Schumann with the Philharmonia, which are not especially good, but I like his Wagner a lot and would expect him to have an affinity with Bruckner. That said, there are rumours about some political views and racist remarks, which he denies. These don't predispose me in his favour but they are perhaps irrelevant to his music making.

[@lucaleksandrov4797]

I tried listening to this Bruckner cycle and it's so unfortunate. The music itself will always be great but it's diminished by the conducting. It feels out of proportion, you expect certain moments and textures and souns and it never quite comes. Frustrating listen. After trying to listen to his 7th and 9th and it felt overall wrong, I listened to Giulini's and the difference was, of course, brutal. It's impressive how much a conductor can make something almost divine, as is Bruckner's music, into something hard to listen to.

[@phamthanh4785]

I saw Thielemann do Strauss Alpine Symphony with the Dresden Staatskapelle. And wow, he managed to make a top class orchestra less interesting than the third rate orchestra in my third world hometown. The quiet part is way too loud, the loud part is way too quiet, the fast part is way too slow and the slow part is way too fast. And somehow the 8 horns, 4 trumpets and 4 trombones are dominated by the woodwinds and string! And sometimes he would do these weird thing where things suddenly get slowed down and than get fast again, or suddenly the trumpet becomes bizarrely loud in 2 or 3 notes and then back to not being audible again. A despicable man. I can tell that the Dresden Staatskapelle is a wonderful orchestra just from the notes they play, but that damnation of a creature keep stepping in the way and prevent the orchestra from delivering a climax!

[@mancal5829]

Why do not very good musicians get very good projects with major labels?

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

Money and politics.

[@mancal5829]

@@DavesClassicalGuide The very thing from which I seek refuge in Classical music. Alas, nothing is sacred.

[@packer812]

I've heard them all and I have to say the second is the worst. I love this symphony, but I managed to fall asleep twice during the first listen. Just completely boring and the orchestra sounds completely uinterested. It should never have been released. I think even Gramophone gave it a bad review, and they usually love everything Thielemann does.

[@gregt2022]

My doorstop is much nicer looking.

[@itsagasgasgas]

Worse than Venzago on cpo?

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

After a certain point, does it matter?

[@itsagasgasgas]

Well, apart from both being very bad, one could still be more “interesting” (in their own respective perverse way or as party records) than the other 😂. By the way, did you know that the French magazine Classica gave this (Thielemann’s) set their highest rating? Go figure…

[@artistinbeziers7916]

I haven't much of Thielemann's recorded output, but what I have heard - eg. R Strauss was awful - even though the BBC seem to think he's wonderful!!! So - little surprise that his Bruckner gets hammered.

[@leestamm3187]

This sounds deserving for inclusion in your next ALDA fest.

[@xavierotazu5805]

Thielemann uses to be atrocious ... including Wagner. He has serious issues with horizontal structure.

[@alpaslanertungealp9563]

The guy (tielemann) is an unbearable “musician”. (If I’d call him a conductor that would be disrespectful to the true conductors of the past century and some of our contemporaries as well). It is sad to see that he is part of the mediocrity machinery running the “music industry”. The “musical world of conductors” is running amok and their output is falling further away from being art. We see clowns, dilettantes, amateurs. Rarely do we find true artists among the bunch. Either this is the end -end of a golden era- or the end of a big slice of the western classical tradition of music as part of music history, or (hopefully) there will be a renaissance of orchestra conducting if the world can get rid of “classical music business” (including the managements and agencies) as corporate money mongering and discard the clowns.