Reviving Faith with Metamodern Spirituality and the Future of Christianity | Brendan Graham Dempsey

[@Neceros]

🎯 Key points for quick navigation: 00:00 *🎙️ Introduction to conversation with Brendan Graham Dempsey, discussing metamodern spirituality and Christianity* 00:55 *🔍 Main topics: metamodernism, new conception of God, metamodern Christianity, and understanding Jesus of Nazareth* 02:17 *🛣️ Brendan's spiritual journey: from conservative Christianity to crisis of faith through biblical studies* 03:40 *🔄 Metamodern spirituality as an integration of traditional, modern, and postmodern insights* 05:56 *📚 Overview of modern and postmodern critiques of the Bible, including historical accuracy and multivocality* 09:22 *🏫 Discussion of the gap between seminary education and congregational understanding of biblical critique* 13:56 *🗣️ Distinction between language of training (for spiritual practice) and language of explaining (for academic understanding)* 17:50 *📖 Example of Jesus and the woman caught in adultery: balancing moral lesson with historical textual analysis* 20:35 *🤝 Metamodern Christianity aims to integrate the value of both historical analysis and spiritual pedagogy* 21:17 *👥 Addressing the challenge of reconciling the "historical Jesus" with the "Christ of Faith"* 22:40 *🔄 Jesus extended his identity beyond historical existence, as evidenced by "where two or three are gathered in my name"* 23:34 *🔍 Distinction between historical reconstruction and reverse engineering in understanding religious figures* 24:44 *💡 The power of historical figures like Socrates comes through tradition, not just historical accuracy* 26:47 *📚 Gospel of John example: spiritual power transcends historical accuracy of Jesus' words* 28:50 *🌱 Christianity's truth unfolds and grows through time, not just confined to its original form* 30:27 *🖼️ Narrative identity: reading mature personality into earlier states, applicable to understanding religious figures* 33:25 *🎭 Shakespeare example: retroactive imbuing of greatness to early works, paralleling religious tradition interpretation* 37:04 *🧩 Complexity theory: emergent properties reveal themselves over time, not apparent in the original state* 38:38 *🧠 Reconstructive memory: constantly rewriting past experiences in light of present understanding* 40:16 *🔮 Christian tradition as teleological, orienting towards the future rather than just preserving the past* 42:07 *👥 Paul's concept of Christians as "body of Christ" aligns with idea of tradition evolving and embodying Christ's spirit* 44:00 *🌟 Faith redefined as imaginal orientation towards spiritual maturation, rather than just belief-holding* 45:52 *🧭 Faith provides orientation towards reality using non-propositional senses of realness* 46:34 *🔬 Faith must align with best available science and history while providing spiritual orientation* 47:56 *🌱 Maturation requires balancing objective reality with subjective orientation* 50:26 *🔄 Recognition of training and explanation languages emerges from spiritual tradition itself* 52:43 *🔍 Imaginal thinking allows for "recovery" of reality, enabling deeper understanding* 53:24 *🧠 Traditional theology bound to obsolete psychology; updating it can re-empower spiritual opening* 55:29 *✝️ Christ as symbol helps reconstruct path towards spiritual goal while maintaining continuity* 56:50 *👤 Internalizing moral exemplars crucial for genuine maturation* 58:24 *🔁 Ideal spiritual journey includes expected shifts in relationship to the Divine* [1:01:32] 😨 Acknowledging the terrifying dimension of the numinous in spirituality [1:02:29]⚖️ Religion's role in balancing protection from and confrontation with the numinous [1:04:20] 🌀 Complexity as hybrid of order and chaos, essential for optimal functioning and growth [1:06:26] 🧗‍♂️ Spiritual growth involves confronting chaos to achieve deeper relationship with reality [1:09:16] 🎨 Beauty as a marker of encountering the edge of spiritual growth and reality [1:10:42] 🔄 Religious language should bring people to the "crux of criticality" for spiritual growth [1:12:31] 🛡️ Standard forms of religiosity often keep people comfortable but may hinder spiritual challenge [1:14:35] 🏛️ Secularism as an attempt to tame the numinous and avoid religious conflicts [1:17:34] 🔓 Metamodern spirituality aims to "unlock" both secular and religious orthodoxies [1:20:33] 🔭 Metamodernism seeks to integrate multiple perspectives for a more comprehensive worldview [1:23:57] 📈 Spiritual growth as a developmental process building on previous stages [1:25:46] 🌀 Ongoing perspectival complexification as a way to better couple with reality's complexification [1:27:21] 🌱 Discussion of whether God itself is evolving along with human understanding [1:29:36] 🎯 Introduction to Schellenberg's concept of "thin description of strong transcendence" [1:30:44] 🔍 Non-theism as rejecting both thick description of theism and weak transcendence of atheism Made with HARPA AI

[@notloki3377]

i had two conversations with people in the last few months who were convinced i was posessed by demons... one rabbi and one baptist. the kicker was that each one of them believed the other guy was posessed by demons also! got me thinking in a loop about the ontology/phenomenology of the numinous, and what evolutionary/social advantages and disadvantages these beliefs afford. this video came just at the right time to help me conceptualize these issues. i appreciate it deeply.

[@matthewparlato5626]

Schindler's primacy of beauty , centrality of goodness and ultimacy of truth is such a homerun it made it to the white board of my mechanic shop

[@BrendanGrahamDempsey]

48:07 Just relistened to John's answer and found it super insightful.

[@alexvatoussis6001]

This is great work, and more of the like needs to be done if we’re to make sense of the place of Christ in our age, and I believe that we must make sense of Christ.

[@GMGMGMGMGMGMGMGMGMGM]

There's thousands of years of Orthodox Christian writings on this topic. E.g. for starters: St Athanasius - "On The Incarnation" St Maximus the Confessor - "On The Cosmic Mystery of Jesus Christ" Then all the way through to modern theologians like Schmemann, Losky, Meyendorf, Fr Thomas Hopko. There's a book called "The Law of God" which is comprehensive. The guys in this video start with the unjustified presupposition that Christianity is false, then try to explain the significance of Christ in light of that.

[@logoimotions]

29:48 - narratively seeing the potential for growth that manifested in a picture of your child from years ago. This is painfully true and gloriously true.Painfully true in that one can see all this in the mind when there is no photo. Gloriously true when you can see the imagined made real before you. I think this also ties in with why nostalgia is so prevalent today - the seeing of what could have been in contrast to the omnipresent meaning crisis that we live in.

[@PerfectHandProductions]

A brilliant discussion. Please keep these coming.

[@Michael-nt1me]

What greater integral philosophy of ...sense, science, and salience.... will become more ...meaningful, truthful and useful.... as our technological know how and technologically interconnecting advance ventures into what is ...true, truth and more truthful.... coming forth and going forward? Do the elites hoard more precious metals or do they go all out for wiser knowledge engineerings??? More importantly, do they further embrace and engage emerging forms of: ... •democracy •evolutionary thinking and •integral scientific visioneering .... with a greater conscience coming forth and going forward?

[@josephgagliano6145]

What a fantastic conversation. Thank you both.

[@whiteinge]

I really enjoyed this. Thank you. I'm looking forward to part 2.

[@transcendentphilosophy]

great convo, and excellent hook at the end, next episode lets go!

[@PresidentFoxman]

7:20 I think this is a great example of how an understanding of wisdom has been lost. Truth claims are very different from wisdom. Wisdom can contain paradox and not break from the pressure

[@Michael-nt1me]

Considering The Greater Scientific Logos of Truth The Higher Spiritual Mythos of Faith and The Truer Subtle Technos of Earth

[@oliverjamito9902]

Brendan thank you for attending unto our OWN!

[@oliverjamito9902]

Specially seeing a Seats beyond the eyes can see! Following Thee!

[@sketchesoharlem]

I always love when you have discussions that directly involve Christianity. One thing I would love to see is a series or deep dive on a specific work of Scripture itself. In my opinion, we often discuss the meaning crisis and its definitions, but I think it’s possible to introduce secularism into the tradition of Scripture through a historical-critical reading of the text. Two key insights have significantly helped me with my relationship to the Word: 1. Understanding that Paul’s writings were the first to appear. 2. Recognizing that Mark was the first Gospel written, in the context of the destruction of the Temple by the Romans, and was intended to guide the Jews who no longer had a physical place to be in the presence of God. Regarding Paul, Albert Schweitzer’s book "The Mysticism of Paul the Apostle" helped me contextualize Paul's writings by understanding him as a Jewish-Christian mystic. He may have been the first writer to internalize Jesus as his sage. As for Mark, I was greatly helped by Mark Tabor’s online course “Creating Jesus: Why Mark's Gospel Was Forgotten?” I believe that examining the texts directly in a historical-critical sense, as these two scholars have done, is the type of theological study you, John, have emphasized as crucial for the future of the Christian tradition. At 1:11:45 Brendan called this work of finding meaning "dangerous" and the "impasse" of religiosity, also that we need to be challenge and unsettled. In Mark, when the Spirit cast Jesus into the desert, the same greek word used for desert is the same greek word used for the desert that Jesus went into when he left the crowds for solitude and prayer. This is what I think about when Brendan says that we need to face the paradox that is the story of Jesus head on, and let it disorient us in order for us to find proper footing. Very much appreciate this discussion, can't wait to see more on your channel.

[@dylanfrasier4054]

I love this bless you...

[@missh1774]

That was beautiful 52:00. It is all like fresh stretchy pizza dough. Thanks John & Brendan 💛

[@SabriGazail]

Thanks for the episode sir.

[@springgingerla]

I just heard here first about a difference between language of training and explaining and found this to be instantly eye-opening. I worked posit that to make sense of some extremer Forms of crises, you need an explanation, as you mistrust your (trainable) experience and people might fail to deliver that, as all of that is not conceptually thought through. Thank you very much!

[@glen.alexander]

53:20 “This will be harsh, but I hope people will give me enough charity around it: I think the traditional theology is very much bound to an obsolete psychology, an obsolete cognitive science, but that revising the psychology and cognitive science doesn’t mean abandoning any of this, but it means a deep recovery of it, that gets reverse engineered to re-empower reciprocal opening, which is what I believe is the abundant life Christ was promising to people.”

[@oliverjamito9902]

Yes, even if ye in the wilderness by thyself! Remember my sincere conversations! Time for thee! Why ? So very SPECIAL!

[@EstebanMAndrade]

legendary, thank you.

[@sebastiaan_de_vries]

Thank you for sharing these rich and far reaching views! I got inspired

[@abableeah3070]

This is humanity coming into self-consciousness. We must bite the bullet, but we don't have to die.

[@alexvatoussis6001]

I also think that a new dialogue between John and Jonathan Pageau would be fruitful in discussing these topics because I think he feels the same way in many respects, most especially with prioritizing the imaginal Jesus over the historical one.

[@Matterful]

A three-way conversation with Brendan would be fantastic.

[@Joeonline26]

​@@Matterfulprioritising the imaginal over the historical seems to threaten the notion of incarnation altogether. God became man in the form of a Palestinian Jew 2000 years ago. That has to be the concrete starting point. Too much emphasis on the 'imaginal' in a Peterson/Barfield sense ends up mystifying Christ too much and risks undermining the whole of the concreteness of the incarnation

[@FLAYYMz]

I tend to agree with Joe. Still not ready to concede the modernism critiques, and want to see them clash with traditional apologetics rather than find alliances between symbolism and transcendental naturalism. Many people in this space aren’t well versed in apologetics, so the concessions begin early and quickly gather momentum. Many seminarians leave with robust faith after mastering the historico-critical method, and I’m not convinced that’s because they lack intellectual virtue.

[@Joeonline26]

@@FLAYYMz You have been able to articulate the point I was trying to make far better than I did. Thanks for the help

[@Magnulus76]

@@Joeonline26 Jesus as a Palestinian peasant rabbi isn't something that should be waived away. Modernity has given us important insights into understanding an aspect of Jesus that the "orthodox" Christian tradition suppressed in favor of what Whitehead called "the ruling Caesar". But personally, understanding Jesus first as a human being I believe helps me to realize there are aspects of Jesus as a peasant that are fundamentally relevant to the contemporary situation we are living in. Jesus sees God's kingdom "from below", not from above. It's much more of an immanent frame than traditional religion.

[@lukefreeperson]

55:23 Christ as encompassing beginning, the way, and the end. Brilliant, Brendan!

[@DeepTalksTheology]

Are either of you familiar with Kevin Vanhoozer’s work on hermeneutics? I don’t know if I’d go as far as to consider him a metamodern theologian but he is someone with some fascinating engagement with the modern and postmodern hermeneutic traditions that is seeking to acknowledge the contributions and blind spots of both.

[@oliverjamito9902]

Likewise fulfilled come here! Fulfilled explain to bring to remembrance and comfort!

[@oliverjamito9902]

Lord many exalted themselves above! As far forgotten thy time from thy grace! Sent forth!

[@lorilea3188]

I am happy to have found this channel and these teachers today. Someday I hope (pray?) to hear a discussion of the Nicene Creed, a political relic of old europe that I am unable to utter when I accompany my parents to my confirmed and estranged ELCA church. I take communion anyway, catholic in that way.

[@colorfulbookmark]

I respect and honor people in this video. The healing is supported by theory, it does faithful healing transduced to the person who take healing. I learn much from this video too ^^ I understand all of the cares academic pros do for the world and great influences how we know it ^^

[@whiteswanNo9]

You're either in the seminary or the pew! Love it

[@JCGriffith]

Curious if either you of you have engaged with Ken WIlber's work much? I know I saw John interact with him briefly in an interview with one of the founders of Extinction Rebellion awhile ago, but haven't seen anything since. His Integral Theory seems to be one of the most thorough frameworks to map out the developmental stages/perspectives and explore how they might be integrated. His latest book that came out last week "Finding Radical Wholeness" also takes a special focus applying that lens to Christianity. Really curious if you're already aware of that work and if so if you find it useful, or have any significant critiques of it. Anyway, great episode!

[@JCGriffith]

Welp - quick KZbin search and found that Brendan already did a video on exactly what I was looking for! 🙏 Metamodernism and the Legacy of Integral Theory (w/ Bruce Alderman) kzbin.info/www/bejne/jnXYgWWNoNWnj8U

[@PresidentFoxman]

16:34 I wouldn’t say it’s toggling between modes exactly, it needs to be more synthesized. Two things very different at once yet a complete whole

[@SpiritualEvolution14]

Can someone give a basic explanation of why people avoid rudolf steiner and anthroposophy in these discussions?

[@lukefreeperson]

31:07 “we are always reading back into…” This section was especially enlightening for me. Pointing to an evolving disclosure of the spirit of Jesus because he exists out of time in the imaginal (his ascension). Not that his essence necessarily changes, but the disclosure of that essence deepens as we come to understand him from different vantages. It also makes me wonder if the quest for the “historical Jesus” is simply an outgrowth of philosophical materialism.

[@Magnulus76]

Yes, of course, alot of assumptions behind Historical Jesus studies were based heavily on an implicit materialist metaphysics. Look at how easily stories of miracles are simply waved away, for instance, by 19th century critical scholars. That wouldn't be possible without an essentially naturalistic/materialistic metaphysics.

[@PresidentFoxman]

20:16 trust is the opposite of certainty

[@FlashTrance]

Thank you for the discussion. I do not see any solution in focusing on Christ as an imaginal figure, though. Perhaps for those who are not truly rooted in the tradition. After all, many people are coming to your same conclusions outside of Christianity, but none of them as far as I am aware are contending very well with the historical reality of the orthodox tradition. As a tiny example, we have extra-Biblical letters/writings from Church fathers who were disciples of the apostle John, like Polycarp. Then we have writings from others who were students of Polycarp, like Irenaeus. And so on and on to today. The teachings and martyrdom of these people, and even more importantly of the modern-day saints who have followed after them, isn't imaginal. It's very real (like in a solid, material sense) and can't be hand-waived away. The apostles and their students believed and taught the fleshly incarnation and resurrection of the Logos. Without this, theosis becomes impossible, and frankly being Christian is foolish. Christianity would become just another religion with moralistic claims competing with all the other religions to be the "best cope" of them all, and it would fail terribly against much better copes like Zen. Philosophy wins the day, because it transcends all of this by looking down on it with a scientific lens, pulling it apart to figure out how religion is helping people to cope. But I'm not here to "cope". Philosophy can't speak about true communion with the living God, because this is logically impossible without the paradox of the union of God and man (heavenly and earthly, symbolic and literal, etc.). Hence, there is no imaginal Christ without the historical Christ, nor vice versa; to think otherwise is to speak about something other than Christ and Christianity.

[@bonnittaroy]

"The traditions are designed around an obsolete psychology/cognitive science" -- not too harsh. We need spiritual practices designed for the kinds of body-minds we are today, and religoius ideas that can solve the kinds of problems we face today, both existential (perennial) as well as ecological (planetary).

[@Joeonline26]

"The traditions are designed around an obsolete psychology/cognitive science" - ridiculous statement.

[@oliverjamito9902]

Pop John hearing Noone can hear! Adopted SONS! Having sincere conversations unto one another! Concerning Who?

[@juanjvvictorjohnson]

Who bores with great patience the objects of his wrath? Who cuts a channel for the torrents of rain, and a path for the thunderstorm, to satisfy a desolate wasteland? “Even if the Terrestrial Morning and the Ocean Dawn were to stand before me...this Ark will leave on time. Put on your willful choice, pick up your petrified wood, unseal the thunder and don't miss a train called Hope.

[@oliverjamito9902]

Do not underestimate all my Meeks! With Delight and adventure! Who loves with patience, mercy, and grace? Gentle and lowly at Heart. Judgment and justice follows

[@oliverjamito9902]

Time come here! Lord how else? Will thy shared "i" AM ABLE in front of THEE? Time GRATITUDE AND HONOR!

[@andrewx3y8c]

Faith as “accurate memory” - every time I listen Dr. Vervaeke uses different ways of describing contemporary faith that are so helpful. Always think to myself that is right on the money

[@Magnulus76]

I don't think he's saying faith is accurate memory. I didn't get that at all. It's more like a disposition that helps you to be open to reality.

[@andrewx3y8c]

@@Magnulus76 Never said that it was. Hence, “contemporary” (my word) faith as distinguished from what faith more properly understood is. Helpful, because it helps to have the right language when discussing with other people, but especially with those who approach faith in that limiting way, as possessive and propositional.

[@Wizzard_only]

This is a great video! I just got my minor in philosophy and have been thinking of rereading the Bible through a more academic lens. Any suggestions on a Bible edition?

[@BrendanGrahamDempsey]

I'd recommend an NRSV study bible, such as the New Oxford Annotated Bible or the HarperCollins Study Bible.

[@Joeonline26]

@@BrendanGrahamDempsey NRSV? Come on...

[@BrendanGrahamDempsey]

@@Joeonline26The NRSV is the standard translation used by scholars. Do people have a problem with that one?

[@Joeonline26]

@@BrendanGrahamDempsey Apologies, I mistakenly read your comment as 'NIV' instead of NRSV. I had been talking to someone else about translations at the time of my comment and got them mixed up here. The NRSV is ok for mainliners, although it has made some translation choices that are culturally driven, like the whole inclusive language thing, which is rather frustrating (e.g., changing "brothers" to "brothers and sisters", translating the references to homosexuals in 1 Corinthians 6:9 as "male prostitutes and sodomites" (the NRSVUE has changed "sodomites" to "men who have illicit sex"), changing "mankind" to "humankind" etc etc.)...

[@BrendanGrahamDempsey]

@@Joeonline26 Ah, yes, agreed. I'm not a fan of the NIV, especially not their study bibles, which contain many errors/misrepresentations. As for the NRSV, I also agree. While I sympathize with the motivations for such changes for reading communities in a devotional context, such translations are unfortunate from a scholarly context as they obscure the worldview of the original texts.

[@Jacob011]

I kept wondering what this metamodern Christianity is about only to discover that I've had very similar ideas about spiritual growth ever since I was slowly realizing implications of what JBP opened up for me. Mark Vernon, however, was the one to take me further along.

[@brendantannam499]

All I can make of this is that they strain any philosophical elements into a spiritual cup and throw the rest away.

[@phoenixkennedy5927]

Bernadette Roberts said that God was like a magnet drawing us to Itself but careful to not get too close (for a while).

[@Rob1955B]

It is the question of whether you are living forward or backwards.

[@jgarciajr82]

On the next episode, is there any way to talk about how people think God is evil because of the religious wars. Also how this tied to ego because I know God is tired to ego?

[@intuitivesean443]

I’ve been wondering how my practice of Neigong aka Dragon gate daoist style would be supported by or slowed down by the application of becoming a Christian orthodoxy

[@eqapo]

6:23 yea this is a sick encapsulation... makes me curious about the drama course

[@dadsonworldwide3238]

My 1890s born great grandmother 8bwas blessed knowing was so admit about me understanding what living life privatly one way publicly another did once they learned humans can play musical chairs of super position to get the answers we wanted did to them. .learning bottom up oreintation and direction in nature shattered them and changed my family 4 ever. . What was passed down become something they could measure and live put. They was already theologically triality of self bottom up before king Henry or newton. This underground knowledge is what newton uses...it Truly inspired the reformation and enlightenment . Very similar to ancients knowledge like alphabetical exodus influence on helenistic enlightenment which was a battle of dualistic physical lawism vs mosaic commandments solomonaic triality of self. 1st temple lost out like Athens did to king Phillip. We don't have the amount of predictable luxury to build out our future discovery that they did forming English language and mechanics gave upfront . and yet still the winner specifically argued against code of life measure and all things phenotypical transfer of data. Lol They knew what we knew instantly! I'd keep in mind that the great debate ignored and went against the fact that By all accounts, all things statistical anylitical over time even spacetime itself gets eaten ,reduced ,merge,by computation ,see jwst inderectly now for an example of some of this. All things are subject to change without further notice whatever nature permits idealistic subjective and physical. If anything physicalism makes us lean into subjective & idealistic systems more and more into the future

[@oliverjamito9902]

My Host Brendan what is fear recognizing ye once born, to crawling, to walking, and till now. What is tip of time?

[@MoeGar-e6e]

“Now the story of Christ is simply a true myth: a myth working on us in the same way as the others, but with this tremendous difference that it really happened: and one must be content to accept it in the same way, remembering that it is God’s myth where the others are men’s myths: i.e. the Pagan stories are God expressing Himself through the minds of poets, using such images as He found there, while Christianity is God expressing Himself through what we call ‘real things’. Therefore it is true, not in the sense of being a ‘description’ of God (that no finite mind could take in) but in the sense of being the way in which God chooses to (or can) appear to our faculties. The ‘doctrines’ we get out of the true myth are of course less true: they are the translations into our concepts and ideas of that which God has already expressed in a language more adequate, namely the actual incarnation, crucifixion, and resurrection. Does this amount to a belief in Christianity? At any rate I am now certain (a) That this Christian story is to be approached, in a sense, as I approach other myths. (b) That it is the most important and full of meaning. I am also nearly certain that it really happened…" C. S. Lewis

[@seans2966]

Has Brendan talked to David Bentley Hart?

[@PresidentFoxman]

BGD!

[@matthewparlato5626]

Yesssss

[@phoenixkennedy5927]

No one did a better job at exploring and explaining the relationship between the historial Jesus and the Real Christ than Bernadette Roberts. She writes about her own struggles with this issue at age six in her autobiography called Contemplative.

[@hexagram531]

This is about the comment approx 19 minutes in, about the story of "he that is without sin, cast the first stone"; the suggestion was this story was a kind of late addition to John [whose language it is not consistent with], and that this made it less historically reliable, no matter how morally important it is. I appreciate this may be beside the point, where we are being concerned with meaning rather than with archeology or "evidence" or "just" "facts" - but what I read about this some years ago is that although it clearly wasn't written by the author of John's Gospel, it could easily have been written by the author of Luke's Gospel; and that some domineering and perhaps prudish male could have edited it out of Luke, as being too "dangerously" close to "approving" of the sins of this woman; but that recognizing its significance, another of the monks looking after the documents thought this story too valuable to lose, and therefore grafted it in when copying John's Gospel. Unproveable, I know, but it does sound and feel "authentically" Jesus, and that could take it back historically to the L source used by the writer of Luke, so it would not be a "late" addition, just a geographically relocated early source. Anyway, it's probably my favourite Jesus story, and I don't even go to church, so I'm moved to defend it! There was plenty of this over-riding of the influence and significance of the female in the early centuries by the dominating males of course - look at all that editing of St Paul trying to "put down" the voice and presence of women, who in fact were a large number of Jesus's original followers and clearly, from Paul's own letters, went out with the males to spread the word. Paul himself was unjustifiably regarded as somewhat misogynistic for centuries, just because of the editing by some of the original "male chauvinist pigs".

[@rsandy4077]

So if Jesus has developed through time and not just the Scriptures, how we know truth from deception? Is it possible to remove biases that distort our view of Him? Id there is no final word that settles it, what is the standard on which to distinguish truth from deception in the traditions through time?

[@SpiritualEvolution14]

My question is, how could you know based on history or timeliness of additions, if Jesus actually told the women to go forth and sin no more? Unless you yourself could access the akashic record, you can't say it didn't happen.

[@oliverjamito9902]

Document from a little child is born unto US!

[@Joeonline26]

The so-called 'postmodern critique' that John discusses was already made by Johann Georg Hamann - a Christian - in opposition to his friend Emmanuel Kant centuries ago...

[@oliverjamito9902]

Pop John How's my Documents?

[@CR3199]

59:19

[@colorfulbookmark]

I have conceptions about the Bible and its narrative orign are good, it is literature and historical stories about life, so is subject to be modified and human demand is in it, and diversity in this case is nominal but unified into one term made absolute or so, so I suggest with relativist sense, to see loosened absoluteness into universal and save people although it is already prevalent in inversive force. The origin of religion in Christainity is not guilty but human demand is so. The organizing features of reality goes with human demand, and modern use of the term "human" and "humanism" is otherwise, so is importance viewing this talk. The attempts in this demand is often with collaboration and expressed as if "community powers" it makes doubts on religion, but not these guys are so. I trust and honor these people's academic works and it is with true mind of humanism, which lacks in modern religions too. The metamodernism is what we need to focus on its wishes for human beings.

[@oliverjamito9902]

Imagine my Father!

[@xaviervelascosuarez]

1:03:29 "Churches were invented to protect people from having religious experiences..." Not sure of the meaning Jung was trying to convey, but it is certainly true and desirable to be protected from the merely subjective and to learn to distinguish it from whatever possibly objective elements in religious experiences... After all, homicidal derangement is neither unimaginable nor an unknown aftermath of certain "religious experiences."

[@royaebrahim2449]

❤

[@oliverjamito9902]

Pop John will say, how can ye mimic without sound?

[@TheCoyotemonster]

I struggle to grok philosophy and many of the points you make go over my head, but I see a convergence between the ideas in this podcast and an intuition I had that Jesus is powerful in direct proportion to all the people now and in history who worship(ed) him. Thanks for your KZbin output. I will continue my struggle to grok philosophy 😂

[@TheCoyotemonster]

I suppose that intuition is far too linear 😅

[@GreenManorite]

Brendan, Metamodern Christianity needs a scriptural defense in the language of fundamentalist Christianity. This is not because you believe that is the sacrosanct form to express Truth, but as a sincerely ironic demonstration of reading growth back into the tradition. Personally, I think this is fully appropriate as the whole of Scripture is about the emerging relationship with God both at the individual level but also at the societal level. I think John starts in on this with his scriptural references and it should be continued. By way of example, Christ himself reveals in the Hebrew scriptures continuity with Himself. So embedded in the Scripture itself is the notion that one builds new relational context between the Sacred text and emerging reality. Something like John 18:36-38 is just asking for a postmodern to metamodern reading.

[@BrendanGrahamDempsey]

Entirely agree. And that's just the sort of project I'm getting at around 41:33 when I talk about using the language of training to talk about explaining. That is, we need a scriptural exegesis of the meta-scriptural dynamics of religious development. I expect to get to this sort of project eventually.

[@GreenManorite]

@@BrendanGrahamDempsey Ah sorry, I hasn't properly recalled how explicit you were on that point. This project is central to integration in the current moment (integration of spiritual sojourners into existing Christian communities) alongside work that needs to be done around credal assent. In the other direction, you lead me to read the Phenomenon of Man and I found it to be a profoundly Christian text within the modernist voice (thank you Teilhard). It reads as a "Genesis" (foundational theological origin narrative) for this moment. I may take a stab at assembling a list of key passages for scriptural support for some of these themes that are sufficiently meaty and not out of context proof texts.

[@PresidentFoxman]

One critique I do have of this route of conversation is that there is an implicit assumption that the traditional view is flawed and that the modern critical view is good. IMO a proper way to understand this would be to see these pieces as all having roles just like the members of a body

[@BrendanGrahamDempsey]

I think you're right, and wouldn't want to give an impression to the contrary. All views are flawed, of course. There aren't "flawed" views and "good" views, only views further along the complexification and reflective axis. All play their necessary role.

[@Michael-nt1me]

@@BrendanGrahamDempsey thin and thick descriptions along with strong and weak trancendences

[@PresidentFoxman]

@@BrendanGrahamDempsey thanks for clarifying, I think this is the most common reason people seem to give for being ambivalent to the metamodern stuff in TLC

[@barbarabartels5449]

differences, not conflicts in the bible, ONE voice!

[@phoenixkennedy5927]

These guys should definately read the essay by Bernadette Roberts called The Spiritual Journey Recapitulates the History of Religion.

[@BrendanGrahamDempsey]

Thanks for the recommendation. Where can I find that essay?

[@phoenixkennedy5927]

@@BrendanGrahamDempsey You are most welcome. It is the first essay in her book called, Essays on the Christian Contemplative Journey. Enjoy!

[@BrendanGrahamDempsey]

@@phoenixkennedy5927 Thanks!

[@oliverjamito9902]

What is intent, based, foundation, and where your Treasures is (my precious little treasures SONS AND DAUGHTERS) there your hearts will be also! Who among will steal?

[@oliverjamito9902]

Time remind unto all the scientists, technologies, mathematicians, nor men molding iron nor elements. Likewise where all these came from? I'll wait right Here! Sitteth

[@athomson8949]

Jesus came to me in a dream while I was a Buddhist. It is possible to work with Jesus directly (in the Imaginal) in the same way that John is working with Socrates.

[@Joeonline26]

Unless you commune with Him directly from what He said in the scriptures, how can you know that the imaginal Christ of your dream isn't just a figment of your own imagination and ego and not the risen Lord Himself?

[@brooksroscoe2699]

The gap, as you call it, between the seminarian and the folks in the pews can be explained so simply: the pastor/priest has to "read the room" much as any communicator does. Read Thaler's book NUDGE. That's the give-and-take going on in a nutshell.

[@Michael-nt1me]

Pastors withhold secrets learned in seminary school.

[@Michael-nt1me]

Pastors withhold secrets learned in seminary school.

[@davidbr810]

At around 20 minutes Brendan uses the story of Jesus and the adulterer to show the potential conflict between what is now known as an addition to the Gospel of John and what might be perceived as 'The Truth'. It seems to me that a weakness in the overall solution that Brendan goes on to make is that for religion to have the longevity and appeal to the masses it needs to have the stamp of Divine authority. Without that, we are left with deep human wisdom which is fine for what it is but it remains relative. In Judaism the Rabbis attempted to get around this problem by arrogating Ruach HaKodesh (Holy Spirit) to their teachings to allow them the assumed avenue to the Truth. There are numerous places in the Talmud where the Rabbis will state that all their teachings originate from Sinai - “Scriptures, Mishnah, Talmud, Aggadah . . . any innovation of any salted student of Torah-all was given to Moses at Sinai.” It would seem that without this approach their teachings wouldn't hold gravitas, wouldn't demand allegiance and wouldn't have longevity. I'm wondering how Brendan might see this matter in reference to the anomaly in the Gospel of John?

[@Zelig_G]

If Jesus came to heal and he called us to go out and heal . . .

[@oliverjamito9902]

My pop John Singularity the I AM. Split in 2 yet 1. Shared "i" AM come forth! The "i" AM.

[@oliverjamito9902]

Lord these Fake casting Thy Judgment and Justice upon thy FOOTSTOOL! Results ye see! Made thy HOUSE a REBELLIOUS HOUSE resting upon thy FOOTSTOOL!

[@oliverjamito9902]

Hosts shared "i" AM will say the SON OF MAN. No bastard here! Adopted SONS!

[@oliverjamito9902]

State nor NATIONS if a little child "i" longing to LEARN from thee! Now bring my own. Who controls State nor NATIONS resting upon my FOOTSTOOL? A little child "i" AM. Likewise will not always be a little Child born unto US!

[@oliverjamito9902]

Some will say who is that liken unto a SON OF MAN sitteth upon the Clouds resting upon the NEW Permanent Foundation? Yet many wise and scribes will say, How? Yet, ye are Here! Thy feet resting upon thy FOOTSTOOL? How? My pop John and my Host remember Some will envy thee!

[@ejenkins4711]

My concern is how can these lads ever get over their love of Sophia and begin the love of nikeya 💚🦍💖

[@Neceros]

Read the Urantia Book to learn who Jesus really was. It has the full story as dictated by human and spirit knowledge.

[@Zirrad1]

People stringing words and concepts together until they feel good about their preconceptions. Waste of time compared to other videos in this channel.

[@justanotherjim]

Both of you were worried about reducing the historical Jesus into a sort of cosmic Christ. Let me propose that the language you are looking for is the Body of Christ. Jesus said and did certain things. He then said, "The Spirit will lead you into all truth." The telos of Jesus' teachings isn't found in Jesus, nor in the gospels as they have been received by the Church, but in the Body of Christ, where the Spirit resides and reveals. We discover the fullness of Jesus' teachings in where they went and how they developed in the Church, the Body of Christ. I believe the pattern of embedding the truly important insights and developments of Christ's teachings in the ancient hymnody is critical. We move beyond the historical Jesus in the specific context of worship, where we hear the expanded teaching of Jesus in the forms of the chanting of the church, which in the Orthodox liturgy goes on almost continually during all the services and provides a sort of commentary and illumination of what is going on. The foundation of all of this is scripture, but it doesn't rely on an inerrant or even absolutely historically accurate scripture. The Gospels, scripture more generally, and the hymnody of the church (the tradition in the Eastern Orthodox sense of the word) are Jesus' ongoing voice through his very real and substantial Body that continues to exist in the world. This is a fantastic video, btw.

[@oliverjamito9902]

My pop John will say, now sincere conversations can take place. How and why? Who can Singularity the I AM can have conversations? But the capital "I" became a little Child "i" AM. Liken unto my little NEW Minds! My Offsprings from thee all. Given to experience to be a FATHER unto a little Child "i". Now pop John. If the little child "i" to visit all FATHERS(AM). Pop as ye see! Many massacres nor to abort my little NEW Minds! Pop if these old minds forgotten! Can do to my little precious NEW minds. What will ye think can do unto thy....

[@oliverjamito9902]

Likewise Who among will say thy lives is worth more than a little precious minds? A baby ye all once came from HERE! Cowards will ye all say, unto these soon to be visited! Our lives is worth more than a baby! If these same minds can do unto a baby. What do ye all think can do to you? Wake up! Nevertheless will find thee sleeping!

[@wehsee912]

🌚☄️❤️💫

[@DaveSims1]

The 19th Century German higher critical project is something we must always repackage and restate with new language, lest it finally die under the weight of its own internal contradictions and total failure to provide a stable language for the Transcendent. Let's not assume that just because Schleiermacher, Bultmann, Tillich, Barth and...virtually every mainstream seminary dissertation in the last century have rehashed this exact same conversation ad nauseum, that we can abandon the project. We might find ourselves entertaining the scandalous specificity of something like dogma, or worse, religion. That's not an option, obviously.

[@sixtysecondphilosopher]

I am a set of a’ priori modes, not a body of limbs and organs. We need to move beyond the notion of “We” Human is a loose notion at best. In essence, the body conduit has no fixed predicate in the abstract lens so the premise is incorrect. What is it of us, that knows this? Until we know more, we are a set of a’ priori modes trying to stabilise our line in an ocean of dissipating variables. We should define ourselves in this manner. We are a set of modes that allow for systematic alignment. A set synthesised with realities structures and stresses. Understanding this is the next step. Everything else is tied up in a field of inverted axioms and that path is a dead end. If you want to understand the modes - KZbin - new paradigm fish by Yap. Stripping it right back. Alternatively- read my work for free on medium. New paradigm fish Yap.

[@oliverjamito9902]

Footstool the House will say, come here STATE NOR NATIONS in front! Remind!

[@turner373]

What if the idea of “leveling up” is just another curative fantasy that protects us from the real?

[@oliverjamito9902]

No repeat! From us but not of us! Hosts are ye bastard? Lord thy shared "i" AM adopted SONS!

[@oliverjamito9902]

Angels who persevere and heard the WORD will say, bring all Who am I? Puppets from these principalities who deceiveth and murderers sitting in high places don't belongs sitting! Wannabes! Casting HIS JUDGMENT AND JUSTICE!

[@AkraticElitist]

Unless you become as a child…

[@oliverjamito9902]

Angels who persevere and heard the WORD will say, ye all trying to blend from us but not of us! No repeat Here! Get off of HIM!

[@mellonglass]

Same old same old, colonizing the mind with spells, you could just unspell the names and look at the ingredients? The ingredients is just collective intelligence that doesn’t need spells and judgements, assumptions and ambiguity. More people can listen to themselves than ever before and stop judging others, but choosing and understanding conversation is better than not interrupting the lecture, linearity has no crosstalk, slow translation, ambiguity, confusion and forced labour, (bullying and bullshit jobs for endless waste) Plant trees and give them names, treat nature as the museum, not the museum as nature was. There is no wild, that is another spell put on us as is ‘warrior’ ‘Hunter’ ‘leader’ ‘growth’ and all the isms to remove the self of response in able. The dictionary controls thoughts, those with the power to change it, control our thoughts.

[@DisgruntledPeasant]

I think im somewhere on the same track as yourself. I think the difficult issue is: not everyone can comprehend this. What do we do for them? Spells, stories and religious traps seem to have been written for them, and there is certainly a moral dilemma there that i cant entirely resolve.

[@mellonglass]

@@DisgruntledPeasant well there are others who also notice, Nate Hagens had a worthy podcast released yesterday. The summary spoiler, we must verb the future and not objectify everything.

[@oliverjamito9902]

Adopted SONS hearing beyond ye can hear.

[@ejenkins4711]

Money sex power +???