Reading Homestuck for Charity with Imakuni Part 58 - Rev After Hours [Vinesauce]

[@TehSkullKid]

I see a lot of people claiming that Kankri is damaging to a lot of social progress movements' credibility by being a strawman of a SJW. You need to realize, back on tumblr in 2013-14 when this part of the comic was being written, his rants were not particularly far off from how a lot of people actually acted. Just miserable people clinging to social justice in lieu of any actual personality, turning every little thing into a political/social matter and generally being assholes and turning legitimate social discussion into an "I'm more progressive than YOU" identity politics slapfight that had more to do with the person's ego than actual issues. It's a textbook example of Poe's law; the people Kankri was meant to make fun of were even more insufferable than he was. Most of that kind of discussion has migrated to Twitter now.

[@sweetgirl070707]

In classic Dave fashion, Rev is now warming up to Karkat.

[@jhonycoolj8192]

h davekat davekat davekat davekath davekat davekat davekat davekat

[@oddballExtraordinaire]

You know it's going to be long if it takes three hours to go past a single page. One down, two to go.

[@Coolerx2x]

Ah, the day the PPM dies horribly

[@loregoblin3854]

the thing about Karkat is that like... he's an asshole, sure, but he is aware that there are limits. he grew up on Alternia, where everyone was sort of belligerent towards each other, almost as a rule. and the general rule of thumb seems to be that if you're an asshole at someone, and they push back with their own dickish behavior, y'all are cool. but if they seem discouraged or despondent, as though you're actually being a bully and it's getting to them? that's when you gotta pull back and reassess. and you can see Karkat skirting this line all the fucking time, like, he checks in with people and pays attention to how they're responding to him. but like, he's also not perfect at it... his approach seems to be to go into every interaction at maximum shouty asshole level, and then backtrack to apologize later if need be. but there's two things to note about that: one, his bickering actually creates a sense of instant familiarity... he's super blunt, but he's also an open book, like, for better or for worse, you pretty much honestly know everything that's on his mind all the time. and two, Karkat will apologize when he's done something wrong. like, especially when I think back to how he handled things with Jade... he apologizes more than once, and works to make it known that he's actually sincere. and sometimes he takes it too far... one of Karkat's major hangups is his tendency to beat himself up about his flaws. sometimes he doesn't seem very practiced at actually solving these issues, but he's trying to be self aware, and you can see him trying to manage it, all right out there in the open. everyone basically knows that Karkat is a good person, which is why he can shout as much as he wants, and people only really find him mildly annoying at worst. and especially during/after the trolls' session, Karkat was probably especially grumpy in reaction to how bad their situation was. he's tired, and worried, and a lot of his friends are treating their situation too flippantly, or they're making things worse, and he feels like he kind of has to be stressed on their behalf because they're not about to feel the weight of the situation themselves. I dunno, I just think it's endearing that Karkat ends up falling ass backwards into being friends with people, like, all the time? sometimes even in spite of his best efforts to hate them. Kankri on the other hand is an absolute tool. his rhetoric basically co-opts the language of sensitivity in order to make other people feel inferior to him. he's disingenuous about literally everything he puts forth, and it's hard to call him out on it, because he'll just turn around and tell you that you're being insensitive. he tries to turn every interaction into this stupid performative wokeness competition, with zero regard to how he actually makes people feel when he's talking to them. he mostly just seems to like hearing himself talk tbh... like he feels superior if he can overwhelm you with his side of the "conversation" and the only reason he's even speaking to you is so he can talk you into submission before you can get a word in edgewise. like, I would say that this actually is a form of trolling, and the only way to engage with someone who does this, is DON'T.

[@SpookyDeerArt]

god you've absolutely fucking nailed it tbh. i fell off reading just before this bit so i only ever experienced kankri through fandom which really didn't do his character justice? he's pretty appalling, but he's supposed to be. he's every bit the person who co-opts language to use it against others and make himself seem superior. literally as rev put it, virtue signalling except he's actually doing it and not in the internet rhetoric way as of recent. anyway thank you for putting it so well!!

[@johnman8398]

While Kankri is a tool and one of the worst alpha trolls, I find the history around him interesting especially when you compare and contrast with Karkat and his role post-scratch. He actually shares some similarities with Karkat in that they both ramble on and rant about stuff that probably aren't even important, in their group most of their members found them annoying or obnoxious to talk to. In both their sessions they set out to be a "leader" with the other trolls not really taking them seriously. Out of the 2 of them Karkat was the closest to filling the leader role as while the rest of the trolls found him annoying they still got shit done and while their session was doomed they were closest to actually succeeding. Karkat by the end of their session didn't even feel like he was a proper leader and felt like he wasn't ready for the responsibilities Kankri on the other hand, played little to no part in their session, no-one listened to him and despite all of that thinks he played a great role as spiritual leader. When you compare Kankri with his post-scratch self and how he was a great leader and tried to make positive change in Alternia and ultimately failed it really makes you think. Like can a person like Kankri only benefit as a person on a place like alternia? Maybe maybe not as Aranea when talking about him talks about how his post-scratch self represents the potential Kanri had but never found. Maybe if his session was like Karkat's he may have changed for the better. On the flipside would Karkat be a worse person if he was born on Beforus? or if his session went like Kankri's? *BONUS ZEBRUH COMPARISON* Kankri I feel like he's at least better by Zebruh by a bit as he at the very least has an understanding of the rubbish he's talking about and genuinely believes what he's talking about, Zebruh on the other hand is just a poser and doesn't care or even understand what he's spouting he's just pretending so that people will like him more.

[@loregoblin3854]

@@johnman8398 I'm in agreement with basically all of this... Kankri seems like, at his core, he is the kind of person who is very concerned with arguing and being in conflict. when there's something serious to have that conflict about, he ends up on the right side of it and can do some really effective good. but when the conflict is smaller in scale, or not as dire, he still bears down on it with similar intensity, and it's not always warranted. either way, I think one of the things Kankri would probably benefit from developing, is the ability to engage with people in non-combative ways. and I think the Sufferer probably was able to develop this as he grew into adulthood because allies were so rare and so valuable to him in his situation. when the conflict that you face is real, constant, and distressing, you're more likely to want to escape from it in times of leisure, rather than seeking it out as your passtime. that's the difference between Kankri's performative social justice, and the Sufferer's lifelong struggle. people actually needed, and stood to tangibly benefit from what the Sufferer was doing. but Kankri seems to have lived a pretty cushy life on Beforus, all things considered, and he still has this boatload of little jabs to belabor with every person he talks to. and it's interesting to note that Kankri actually seems to interact better with people who are blatantly like "yeah, I'm a total fucking shithead and proud of it, so whatever" because Kankri knows they won't ever care about his pointless nitpicking... it actually allows them to bypass that and talk about literally anything else. also, I think Porrim is a good example of a sort of middle ground. she seems to be concerned by mundane sexism, and she'll talk about issues that she's specifically observed, but people actually like her as a person because it's not the only thing she'll ever talk about, y'know? she's not exhausting. and she and Kankri actually butt heads the most, because Porrim does want to be a good person, and Kankri is kind of making a mockery of the concept. and like, I think the comparison/contrast with Karkat is interesting because like... the similarities you observed are definitely there, but come from different places for each of them. like, yeah, both groups of trolls think their Vantas can be kind of obnoxious to talk to. but for the Alternian group, it's just cuz Karkat keeps trying to rope them into plans that he hopes will help their group's situation, and nobody believes that they'll work. the "troll the humans" plan seems like it'd be really ineffectual, but Karkat is desperate for something to do, because otherwise it's just sit on a meteor in a dead session until your existence ends. and within the Alternian group, everyone is either totally nihilistic, trying to work a different solution, engaging with the humans but not in the way Karkat said to cuz they do what they want, or they really don't seem to grasp the gravity of their situation at all, and are just kind of waiting for the rest of the group to find a solution so that everything will turn out okay. the whole Alternian group is made up of loose canons, and Karkat is mostly the leader because he can talk to all of them. like, he doesn't have any weird conflicts or estrangements that make it impossible for him to engage with anyone. with the Beforus group, it seems like Kankri fundamentally misunderstood what being a leader meant. he basically considers himself to be a paragon that the rest of the group should aspire to be like... he has this incredibly picky moralizing stance, and he thinks it makes him the most morally correct, but he also presumes that others should be striving for his brand of moral purity, and most of them literally do not give a shit. they don't believe he's the paragon he says he is, and even if he was, they wouldn't strive to be like that. they find him unappealing anyway. he comes off as totally delusional because he doesn't seem to understand that it's not his job to save everyone from their immoral ways, like, he's basically the most judgemental, condescending person ever, and he thinks that he's coming off as kind and generous. so to compare Karkat and Kankri, they both are in a position where they're trying to rally a group toward something, and the group is largely not having it. and you can basically tell which is valid and which isn't because of how they react to people brushing them off. Karkat gets really angry because he's desperate for there to be something to do in order to save them, and all these assholes aren't necessarily presenting any better ideas, and they have to try something. Kankri is practically happy when people challenge him on his views because he gets to lay into them even more... his goal is just to talk them down even further. I don't think he even has a goal in mind. and what's even more interesting is how the Sufferer is characterized by righteous anger in his own mythos. it seems like that's the indicator that he'd found a worthy purpose in that life.

[@loregoblin3854]

@@SpookyDeerArt yeah, I think the fandom tended to dig really deep to try and find Kankri's most redeeming qualities, and then clung to that... Kankri's actual characterization is insufferable, but his character design is like... a softer version of Karkat? and some of the talking points that Kankri mentions are legit if you're being cool about them, like, you don't want to actually trigger someone to have a panic attack... that stance is valid. but some people didn't pick up on the fact that Kankri himself is absolutely not being cool about these topics, and was actually kind of shitting all over the concept of them, so they kind of took him at face value as the social justice troll, which is... I mean it makes sense that that era of tumblr would. unfortunately. so yeah, he was really rife with mischaracterization. ^^; (also, you're welcome!)

[@TheLordMagmar]

To offer a slight counterpoint, Kankri is absolutely a tool. But if you consider what his life was likely to involve it suddenly becomes a lot more clear why he's so bad. He's a mutantblood, and one who is known to be as such. On Beforus to be a mutantblood, or a lowblood, or otherwise deemed "lesser" is to be babied constantly, to be treated as a child and loved but never listened to because the Highblood knows best, the Highblood is wise and old and only does what you need to do. Notice how badly he freaks out whenever Porrim "mothers" him, or how he absolutely needs everyone to listen to him and his stances no matter what. He's used to his opinions not mattering, of being the child in a room full of "adults" who appreciate him the way someone appreciates a dog. Cute, to be looked after, but ultimately not your equal. It doesn't make what he does okay, he's absolutely an asshole in a way Karkat isn't. But I think it's worth considering why he's so bad. I also think that Porrim contextually is awkward, because whilst she is a lot better at talking about social issues, the social issue she focuses on is perhaps weird for Trolls in general. Because Troll's don't really do gender as a method of discrimination as far as the story portrays it. So her whole I'm being told to be this way because I'm female could easily be railing against the Beforan Hemospectrum expecting Jadebloods to be that way. It makes the difference between them more nuanced, because Kankri is absolutely the least privileged person in the Beforan Squad, he's likely experienced the worst of how to be different in Beforus is to be belittled and infantalised. So I'm not shocked he gets very frustrated with Porrim. Again, not saying he acts the right way, he's an asshole and he uses the legitimate discussion as a way to tear others down and feel superior as others have said. I just think it's not fair to say it's because he's just an asshole, especially when Meenah (who is just an asshole for no reason) and Cronus (who is by far the worst troll) are also in this segment of the story.

[@loregoblin3854]

okay, so, at 1:58:05 I just about lost it, like, he kept revealing progressively more information about the situation in this story, and my opinion of this guy kept dropping lower and lower, but then he said this and it was like, just absolutely too much. how did this guy have any friends...

[@fennecfoxfanatic]

the ppm dropped. STONKS DOWN

[@iveedoodle]

for the other vod squad people who are wondering when Rev and Ima are done with cowboy bebop rant, here's the time stamp: 1:01:20

[@M44Pumpkin]

Live your non vegan life lol. But because of what was said I would say soy/peanuts def isn't what we mainly survive on. It's just all the regular food minus meat/diary/eggooo. Fricking cool you got to open bound finally BTW. Hope you guys still enjoy it and congrats on moving! And also,Jade is Witch of Space. Dave was the beta kids time player(Knight).

[@yasmingomes09]

2:49:03 - Ima: Congratulations, you are now Kankri. Rev: Okay, so, can I like press space to jump off this? That made me laugh out loud, his reaction to Kankri was even better than I expected, lmao

[@friedchickenUSA]

maybe we should call it like, "pages per stream" instead

[@hpalpha7323]

I feel like the only person in the world that didn't interpret Kankri as actively malicious

[@oddmerit6530]

i'd say i felt the same way at the time, especially since around 2013-ish in my friendgroup i was the "sjw" friend. the thing is, 7 years later i *get* his character as someone who uses the language of social justice to be a bad person, and i think it rings true in some ways, but i didn't (and still don't lbr) trust hussie to have the range to *actually* be talking about that kind of thing. i feel like it's kind of a stopped clock situation, hussie was distorting the views of 2013-era social justice tumblr teens and just kinda happened to stumble into this genuine critique when he was really just kinda taking shots at people who anti-sj people thought were "too sensitive". kankri IS 100% an asshole, believe me, but mostly just because there WAS a large contingent of homestuck fans who thought every social-justice minded person was an asshole like him.

[@iveedoodle]

I also thought he was alright, mostly because i was around ??? 14 ??? and didnt read (or comprehend) most of his speeches.

[@loganbritton6737]

That's surprising to hear considering his response to Portim bringing up the problem of misogyny

[@Avery-Boi]

My first time reading Homestuck, I also pronounced Calliope as Cal-ee-oh-pee, however the Lets Read Homestuck series by Voxus says it as Cal-eye-uh-pee, and I like that pronunciation much better now. But, considering you pronounce Kanaya (kuh-nie-uh) as Kanye, I dont think it really matters at this point xD You could call the cherub "Cantaloupe" for all I care.

[@fault3k]

Rev: Gosh i sure hope kankri stops talking soon

[@toagradius8856]

Latula is the best I’m ready to die on this lonesome barren hill

[@sweetgirl070707]

"No one wants to fuck you, nerd" "This is why they crucified you, nerd!" Oh my god, I'm so glad I stuck around for that.

[@Nekonyahmicon]

I don't care if it makes me a boomer Cowboy Bebop is a fucking classic.

[@beatofromuminekorealnotcli4574]

Kankri would support Sia's movie

[@Tcj333]

PPM: buy low, sell high

[@fault3k]

Its amazing how often sexual words happen around imakuni but never in a sexy way. kind of like jabroni mike

[@ukyoize]

I unironically want full transcript of Kankri speech

[@Theqweensfool]

So a fuckin phone book?! 😂

[@clockworkspiral]

i know this comment is literally 3 entire years rate but i've generally seen the dancestors described more as "caricatures of how the fandom at large seemed to average out characters to" - karkat at the time often being seen by the fandom as "preachy", so his dancestor was made as preachy as could be

[@AntiTab.]

Local boomers try to prove that they're not boomers and fail miserably

[@theVoxvirus]

Wait, people don't know the phrase cold cocking?

[@Maro-gp3vf]

I think I know who he's talking about. is it noodle? cuz if it is, then I understand, noodle just does whatever, so it was just a matter of time before he did that

[@halowaffle25]

This is, in my opinion, the absolute worst part of Homestuck. Congrats on making it through, Rev! ...1/3 of the way through, that is. :)

[@sweetgirl070707]

I hate it too, but what about the trixter arc and the squared sprites? And do you count anything after act 7 Homestuck?