Electric Motorcycles with Ryan F9

[@RevZilla]

It’s time to get your bike on the road, Motul has what you need! rvz.la/3Yg20Hn Have you signed up for our Rider Plus Membership yet? rvz.la/3XXzaex Don’t miss out on the latest Moto news on Common Tread rvz.la/3DkBYcj

[@cademckinleynascar4592]

It aint rowdy enough for me, I like it a bit more rowdy.

[@quincyfry6569]

How to get a guaranteed video watch... have Ryan F9 join you.

[@Cj-xl3jv]

@@JimCamel37 **stares at Niken** Yeah… I feel that

[@victoriazero8869]

> cricket noises at ABR Festival channel. Nah. Algorithm still king, and Revzilla is hardly small creator either, I'd argue they're even bigger than Ryan in terms of pure reach.

[@quincyfry6569]

@victoriazero8869 Thanks for pointing me to the new channel! Never heard of that adventure fest before and understand your message better now! But F9 does have the greater volume of subscribers

[@soumikpal8631]

True true

[@XtianApi]

Yeah his channel is stellar

[@Codex_0613]

The crossover we need! Now we just need Zack, Ari and Ryan to do an adventure episode together. It'd be the best motorcycle related content on youtube.

[@DiDUFeeLThiS]

The community needs this.

[@SergeantBowls]

That would be awesome!

[@victoriazero8869]

New generation Top Gear, uniquely different yet still awesome.

[@georgesherpa]

@@victoriazero8869 OH MY GOD YES!

[@alexeypetukhov6197]

YES, YES, YES, ABSOLUTELY!

[@BassOutcast]

The whole "marketing to non motorcyclists" is exactly how Honda became the largest motorcycle manufacturer in the world. Their "You meet the nicest people on a Honda" campaign that featured people from all walks of life riding the clean and non-intimidating Cub literally made them sell more than any other motor vehicle in history. Such an approach from an electric motorcycle company can really change the game.

[@electric_boogaloo496]

Frankly, the Vespa and all the automatic scooters have that market cornered now. I visited Paris, Rome, Sicily, Tuscany recently. Using a scooter to get around is just a way of life. North America is different because are traffic moves much faster and distances are quite large, and we have ample parking for cars. Trying to find parking spot in European cities for a car is such a hassle.

[@twrcrew8852]

Except Energicas are far from casual motorcycles. Every time something like this comes up, Ryan always references the most DINKY electric bikes out there and says "see?? they suck". and while they make a tiny mention of energica on this podcast, I highly doubt they've ever ridden one. He needs to shut up and actually do that if he ever wants to talk about one.

[@steveblackwood1202]

@@twrcrew8852 did you actually watch/listen to the pod cast? Ryan made specific mention to the Energica and that he has not been able to ride one because they are not available in Canada. he goes on to question Zack and Spurgeon as to whether or not they have had the opportunity to ride one... obviously he is trying within his ability to get all the relevant information on the subject. I think the solution here is not for Ryan-or anyone else-to "shut up", it"s for you to either listen to the podcast so you can comment intelligently, or not listen, and keep your un-productive comments to yourself.

[@ADobbin1]

It would help more to not be selling them for more than my car costs for a quarter of the materials.

[@GregLanz]

Yes it was, but now e motorbikes are targeted to people who want to pretend to be cyclists so they can cruise the local bike paths at 50 KM/h and those that want to pretend they're riding a Harley but also want to ride on what used to be bike paths. If you want electric motorcycles or motorcycles in general to be adopted then you have to make using a bike of any kind safe and usable on public roads

[@alifeoncechris]

Ryan is my favorite guest. He flows so well you guys. Fits right into the crew.

[@LilSaint001100]

Its the 2nd time too i believe

[@waltermh111]

​@@LilSaint001100it is, it was 2 years ago before.

[@seffievondionysus3198]

It's funny you say that because the vibe feels so off in this podcast to me that I had to turn it off lol nobody seems like they really want to be there or are enjoying themselves and I watch tons of podcasts

[@JessePerryAndCoffee]

"Where's my eGrom?" - RF9 From your mouth to the House of Soichiro's ears, good sir.

[@vsnyder8622]

It's awesome this came out when it did because I'm vacationing in Taiwan and just got to see swappable battery stations. A guy pulled his scooter up, popped his seat, yoinked his battery, held a card up to a reader and swapped his dead one for a fully charged one, tossed in the bike and took off. The whole exchange took him well under a minute.

[@bumstead1383]

Now that’s city /urban perfection. I imagine all Europe, Asia countries have been more acclimated to electric vehicles? Does that sound right?

[@vsnyder8622]

​@@bumstead1383 I would think so. The US and probably Canada are way harder markets just due to the distances we would like to be able to go and our horrible lack of efficient public transport. For instance, today I'm going to go about 120 miles on a high speed train in a couple hours for ~$20 usd. Since I don't need a car to do that, the electric scooter for my city commute would be an economical option that makes a lot of sense.

[@bumstead1383]

@@vsnyder8622 I understand your situation but idk that it’s the same thing as most Americans or Canadian people. I live in a rural environment so there’s no way it works for me, the big cities with the big population is where I see the biggest problem.

[@sammerry7706]

Such a straightforward solution

[@pprasser]

In Taipei last year I timed one with dual batteries do the swop from getting off the bike/scooter to driving off to 35 seconds. Very efficient setup.

[@PreppyBiker]

My e-bike was the gateway-drug into motorcycles for me. Wanted more speed, more torque (to get my fat-behind up hills), and more versatility. So at 47yrs old I find myself a late-motorcycle enthusiast all a result of a drop-shipped e-bike.

[@joekavalauskas8767]

Same. Converted an my old single speed with a 1000w hub and a 48v 20ah battery. Lasts about 30 miles or 3 hours of non-stop riding and hit 30mph. Took at everywhere! I knew 2 wheel life was for me and got full armored gear and motorcycle license. Now own a Ninja 250r. If I’m not on one, I’m on the other.

[@tstartrekdude]

Same, started with ebikes. I was looking at spending a 5 something thousand on making a somewhat usable e-motorcycle and just got a 50cc scooter instead (way more capable in every way) and the rest was history. Was car free for 5 years just with ebikes, but am loving motorcycles now.

[@SoulTouchMusic93]

you clicked an ad??

[@LoneWanderer905]

Almost that. 2 Stroke Engine kits were much cheaper than e-bikes so I bought one and set it up when I had an knee accident and the doctor told me to not pedal on a bike for at least a year. Rode it for a year. Bought an 1989 CB450 DX.

[@DeathsheepFSF]

45:17 I completely agree with this point. I started out on an e-bike and moved up into a motorcycle. The e-bike was something like $500 USD and showed me how much fun and how practical it was to get around on 2 wheels. They are so easy (close enough to regular bicycles in handling and operation), cheap (china makes hella e-bikes that are good enough, not great, but very cheap), low maintenance (just plug it into the wall overnight, and maybe get a new battery every 5 years), and requires no license or registration. They really are the gateway for REGUALR people to get into motorcycling. Marketing to motorcyclists is definitely NOT the way to go, until battery tech gets better. Additionally, I was driving around an SUV for a while with absolute trash MPG, and when I heard motorcycles could get 100+ MPG, I was completely blown away. It's way more fuel efficient than even the most expert of Prius drivers.

[@DavidCandelaMartinez]

Hey guys I wanted to give you the perspective on this topic on my city, Barcelona (Spain). We've seen an increase of more than 47% on electric bike sales on the last year compared to the previous one. Most of the sale are from moto sharing companies (sort of a subscription service on renting a vehicle), there's more than 7 different, and competing, companies on the same city. More numbers: we have at least 10 companies building electric motorcycles in Spain and over 75.000 of these vehicles driving right now in the whole country. Here the electric motorcycle is marketed as a cheap, easy to use, no eco friendly restrictions, go around town type of vehicle, and it works.

[@keithrobinson5752]

The irony is in your situation if the environment is your real concern, then walking of cycling is a much better way.

[@DavidCandelaMartinez]

@@keithrobinson5752 Cycling is being pushed very hard on us but the humidity of the weather makes it difficult.

[@cyjanek7818]

@@keithrobinson5752 its obciously not about environment at all cost, its about best compromise for environment and comfort. Cycling is available for years and yet people sit in cars so its clear people wont chose bicycle for some reason. Electric help changes that

[@raycardy4843]

I agree, as I currently have a scooter that was built in Barcelona - a Silence S01+! (I'm in the UK!) - it can do 62/68mph, but most of the time I rarely take it out of 'Eco' mode and get 70-75 miles range..

[@georgepelton5645]

Only "Fifteen hundred kilowatts?" That sounds about right. F9 should do some more videos with his 2000 hp bike!😀

[@ravenragnar]

Ryan F9 nailed it at the 50min mark. Electric pedal bike is the way to go. No big ass mega helmets. You can lift it with ease. Easy to load in the car. No insurance. No lic. No headaches of where to park it. 200 watt solar panel is all you need to charge it. We can finally give the finger to the middle east. Goes 28mph. 30 down a hill. You will actually sneak around town faster then any car. You will also just be going out a lot more in general because you can decide to not put in any work and just chill and use the twist throttle. But you can put in the work and get a murder burn bike workout if you want. Save your money and get a $999 Lectric 3.0 e-bike with passenger package (small additional cost) and you got exactly what any motorcycle can do. Anything above that price point is just giving away money for free. Did I mention it folds in half? Just do it meme.

[@hby7768]

I have the lectric foldable bike, that is not anywhere near the experience of a motorcycle.

[@spitfiremac]

​@@hby7768 Your reading comprehension scores are low, aren't they?

[@RPRosen-ki2fk]

It blew my mind that Talaria or Sur-Ron weren't mentioned in this discussion. I'd say they're in the Sondor class of E-bikes and are HUGELY POPULAR. And like the Stark Varg another promising start up Rivid Anthem is supposedly coming to market right about now.

[@brianc277]

I was surprised as well. I recently got pissed during an oil change on my KTM and a week later picked up a Surron Ultra Bee. Yes, it's only good for about 40 to 50 miles with a 21/18 dirt bike wheel set up but not dealing with a clutch and brake on the feet combined with the predictable power and gobs of torque makes it great. I was able to get up some rough rocky spots without issue that my buddy use to hate going on with me cause I took forever cause I'm a perma-intermediate who'd get myself in trouble with the clutch/power delivery.

[@ricebowl3]

nice yeah i’m surprised they should have Sur Ronster on the show

[@ragetobe]

I’m just guessing but bikes built for off road only with very little distance don’t really factor as real bikes for the general biker.

[@waltermh111]

​@@ragetobeyeah, when people talk ebikes (and they seem interested in success in the general market), obviously an enduro/off road bike isn't what they are talking about. And for 6k, it's not something to even give your kid for the town.

[@Real_MisterSir]

Also if we look east towards India, China, etc the 2 wheeler ev market is booming like crazy, it's only a matter of time before their progress and influence starts trickling towards the west. Many chinese makers are already trying to enter the Euro market, after that the NA market is gonna be next.

[@M4Nathan007]

'23 Zero FXE owner here (1500miles ridden and only had my M1 license since May '23) For me with a Tundra and a permanently mounted FourWheelCamper, the Zero was my perfect daily. I have about a 50mile round trip daily commute with about 15miles on street (30-50mph) and 35 on highway (65-80pmh) and my FXE does it with 20% charge remaining. I ran the numbers and with the cost of financing and insurance, I'm saving almost $200 a month on gas. Just bought a rack, and top case and that ~$300 will pay for itself in less than a year now that I can use the bike to go surf, shopping, etc. without having to start my big honking 5.7L V8 for such short drives that the engine doesn't even warm up fully. Very happy currently.

[@alozborne]

Fair comment, but it still can't compete on a cost basis with a used motorcycle that gets over 70 mpg. I want EV motorcycles to be successful, but it's going to take better battery tech to make them truly superior from a cost standpoint.

[@victoriazero8869]

@@alozborne > 70 mpg Which eliminates pretty much ALL of the bikes most American consider small I'm sorry, if they cares about MPG all of them would ride a cub, that can bench 100 km a liter sometimes They want noises and smokes, and while subjectively nothing wrong with that...

[@alozborne]

@@victoriazero8869 My Honda CB500X gets 70 mpg all day long at any speed under 70 mph. It's not the only fuel efficient, yet still fun gas motorcycle to ride. Pretty much any motorcycle 500cc or less will get 70mpg or better

[@victoriazero8869]

@@alozborne And You're talking a bike that KZbin squids and ignoramus in the comment call fatty and outdated, mocked relentlessly and even now considered *worse* than CFMoto. I Love CB500, as an Asian I actually have similar bike, but in 400cc instead. But look at the closed bubble of US motorcycle fanatics right now. Once again, people who mocked EV do not CARE about MPG. And no, I'm not talking about people with actual range concern, but utter dismissal against all argument (like, there's 180 degrees of opposite appeal to EV vs ICE like lack of vibration and noise) and future market potential.

[@ferrumignis]

14:47 1500 kW (equivalently 1.5 Megawatts) is a little over 2000 bhp. Quite a lot for a TC90 😁

[@FortNine]

Yeah, it can be tough to keep the front wheel down on my daily commute to Mars. ~RF9

[@snorman1911]

😂

[@davidpawson7393]

Engage safety squints and angry pixies.

[@detansinn9882]

I own an HD Livewire and I am lucky to have some great twisty/hilly roads that start within two miles of my house, ie. I don't have to travel far for my adventure to begin. With regen, I am seeing over 125 miles range, even when I am beating on it. I love it and the bike is insanely great. Of course, when I get back home, I can park the bike in the garage and charge it back up. For longer trips, I have used DC fast chargers, but truth be told, my Livewire is largely used for local rides of 80-100 miles (round trip). The challenge with the urban environment, for all EVs really, is that these vehicles are far less convenient if you can't charge at your home. Public charging, even in our cities, is a real pain point. Ebikes are better suited for city dwellers, because you can take the battery up to your apartment to charge and often get the whole bicycle in the door. A full size electric motorcycle is not a great option if you're relying on public chargers.

[@bumstead1383]

Have the prices of LW come down ? I just remember the intro price turned me off.

[@magsteel9891]

Many apartment houses have banned e-bikes in apartments because of fires.

[@guitarmike4ever]

Ryan should be a regular segment! Well done. Thank you 🙏

[@AdventuresonZero]

I just completed the MABDR on my modified LiveWire One. I was accompanied by another electric motorcycle rider, Kevin Edwards on his 2021 Zero DSR. His wife, Amy Edwards, was with us on her WR250. We rode 1200 miles in 7 days, South to North. Video is currently being edited.

[@coronasquared]

Word up! Looking forward to seeing this!

[@JEP-Tech]

I just pre-ordered Fuell Fllow for $10,000. If it holds up to the specs they have on their website now and has the same build quality that older Buell bikes had, I think this will be the answer people wanted for the perfect mid range electric motorcycle that actually offers something better than traditional motorcycles for several key reasons. 1) The 0-60mph acceleration of a superbike (under 4 seconds). 2) Highway capable top speed (80mph sustained). 3) A price on par with a typical 500cc motorcycle (under $12,000). 4) Better built-in and secure storage space than a typical scooter (enough for a full face helmet with room to spare). 5) City range that is over 100 miles (will probably be about 75 miles on highway, which is all you need for a commuter motorcycle, this is not a touring bike and no EV motorcycle will be). 6) A host of premium features lacking in traditional bikes at this price range, reverse, GPS tracking, traction control and integrated ABS with regenerative breaking from rear, no real maintenance besides tires and front break (not even a gear that can break like is an issue in Zeros mid drive motors), and collision detection. 7) Modular design that allows you to upgrade the motor, battery pack, and charge port/inverter. So long as Fuell doesn't software lock these components and charge "subscription" fees to unlock these things, this could be a huge game changer if Fuell sells enough of these to make future upgrades and new models. Seeing as is this is designed by a team of engineers with a long history of designing innovate motorcycles for older OEMs I'm hoping this bike will not suffer from the issues Sondors and others have with creating motorcycles with cheap components and not even thinking about fine tuning things to optimize the ride experience.

[@user-pq4by2rq9y]

What we need is to have surrons legalized. These are the e-motos that people actually want.

[@waerlogauk]

I am just back from 2000 miles touring mostly in France on an Enerica. Typically 250 miles in a day with an overnight charge and two 20 minute stops during the day. One disappointment of France is that they haven't realized that charging stations should be near refreshment opportunities so some of my planned cafe stops ended up being a snack by the bike in the middle of an industrial estate.

[@shashanksaikumar]

India has a very optimistic electric 2 wheeler market building up. There are thousands of people in our big cities choosing electric scooters over regular gas vehicles and most major manufacturers have a presence in this segment doing decent sales.

[@sebastiangeorge7714]

It also improves the air and noise pollution

[@thecompanioncube4211]

​@@sebastiangeorge7714 unless they're banning the usage/installtion of horns, noise pollution in India is never gonna go down.

[@magnusrittersen4702]

I’ll start with I own a 2018 Zero FX modular and I’m 57. It was a huge decision between the Zero and a KTM EX350. Other than they both cost the same and are technically dual sports, they are as different as possible. Almost no maintenance vs very high maintenance. Good Chinese parts vs best in the business parts. Boring colour scheme vs orange (my favourite colour!). In British Columbia, ridiculously cheap insurance vs cheap insurance. Ergonomic piece of crap vs everything just where it’s supposed to be. No regrets!! The Zero is the most hooligan friendly town bike EVER! I’ve only been pulled over once doing 96kmph in a 50 zone and only got a warning from the motorcycle cop. It goes 0-60kmph across a 2 lane intersection. Nothing can touch it except a Tesla or Rivian. I can sneak down pathways and no one seems to be bothered as long as I’m slow and careful. Range sucks but the acceleration makes up for it.

[@bryanmiller2023]

The thing that stands out on the Long Way Up documentary was the pre-production Rivian support vehicles ended up stealing a portion of the charging infrastructure attention when they charged the motorcycles off the trucks. The motorcycle batteries were so small figuring out how to charge ended up a big part of the story. Rivian gained a lot of positive exposure in a show that was supposed to be motorcycle focused, ultimately making electric motorcycles look not ready for real world use outside of charging from your own garage.

[@ragetobe]

I watched that, Rivian were clever, once they found out the route the guys were taking they spent the best part of a year installing charging points along the route to make sure it was doable, Harley Davidson did not do this. Rivian pulled off a coo and the focus was bought to the car instead of the bikes just because of a clever move. Electric bikes just are not a thing for the general biker.

[@alanna6621]

Yay🎉 Ryan!

[@turbolaban]

Energica has come a long way since 2019. You need to try the later models. The Experia rocks :)

[@martinfoster5163]

I respect all the dudes in the video. However, not mentioning Surron is criminal. In most places in the world, including North America, Surron's dominate with their Light Bees. I'm an old fart, but I've gone totally electric with my Surron Ultra Bee and Surron Storm Bee. Also, I have an eMTB (electric mountain bike). All are Chinese and all are top quality but not crazy expensive. The price range is $3-6k of my e-bikes. I live off road in the mountains and don't need to commute but I certainly could on those bikes. I don't even have petrol stations near me but I do have cheap (grid) electricity and looking to go solar for all needs except heating in the near future. Commuter and fun off-road bikes ARE definitely the successful use cases for e-bikes. Adventure and touring is not really feasible for much of the world. That part you get right. Not mentioning Surron's success shows that you don't know much about the current state of e-bikes.

[@MrPansophy]

I'm ditching my car in favour of an electric Super Soco. My daily commute is only 20km and the little bike does that with ease. Running costs are minimal and it rides like a push bike. Love it and puts a smile on my face every time I pass a gas station. Best thing: I'm no longer stuck in traffic ...

[@elchefreedom5063]

Omg, mate? It’s mateine! My most fav dude ever now. Bienvenido a lo argentino F9!

[@cyjanek7818]

Energica seems to be more supportive of right to repair and also they refined their sport bike model in 2021 (from what I saw on website last time) to be lighter and have bigger battery so I think it would be really nice to see new reviews of those bikes

[@leonidfro8302]

What motorcycle you cannot repair? It's not like there're some electronically locked components. FUD.

[@cyjanek7818]

@@leonidfro8302 Zero is blocking (or at least was) repairs, you had to deliver your bike to dealer if you wanted to do anything and they would not sell you parts. There is guy from new zeland (I think) who had a problem because there were no Zero dealers around. He didnt have that problem with Energica Your lack of knowledge in that space doesnt mean everything is FUD

[@leonidfro8302]

@@cyjanek7818 Ah, blocking in sense not selling parts? Well, this is sort of possible, but they use common pads, rims, mirrors, tires, so what's left? Frame? Electronics? Leds? My guess is that you broke battery or engine you can just throw away the whole thing. But yes, blocking part sale is stupid. One more reason not to buy it.

[@BrianTRice77]

Zero also doesn’t let owners even decode onboard data. Dealers can’t even do it without having a live connection to Zero’s web services. But I have seen no evidence that insights into Energica’s onboard systems is any better. Yes, they offer service manuals and a parts catalog, but those are only for the mechanical elements.

[@leonidfro8302]

@@BrianTRice77 I’m sorry for my lack of knowledge, but why would I want to decode onboard data? Can I do it on my Honda? For Toyota? Now, let’s say you managed to decode it, now what? Here’s idea - stop buying overpriced toys.

[@michaelmarcus509]

Love Ryan!!!! First of these I’ve watched and I clicked only because I love and respect his content so much.

[@marsrover001]

I built my own electric motorcycle. 32,000mi later I still dont regret it. Unfortunately the ones being sold commercially just don't allow you to repair them while wildly overcharging for specs I did for a quarter the price. For now electric is still in it's DIY phase unless you have money. The riding feel is more fun. Ive ridden several gas bikes and every time I go back to mine and love it more. The one handed riding, the perfect cruse control, the balance between 650cc power in a grom sized bike while still pulling 150mi on a charge. It's all the fun of a gas bike with all the annoying bits removed. You feel more connected to your surroundings by doing 55 and still hearing the birds and crickets in the trees. I don't have to mirror check cause I can hear cars coming up behind me. By opening up your ears to your surroundings you engage another sense, and that feels better than hurrdurr loud exhaust.

[@MattRhodes_Music]

What motor did you go with?

[@joko-kc3wc]

RyanF9 needs to do a NC750x video!

[@Demdere]

20:41 - I'm sorry, but I have to disagree. Is the Nissan leaf a success or not? It objectively is, while in the early years people talked about it like you are now... Not enough people that ride BMWs/Ducatis/etc have gotten on a nice EV bike yet. The price will come down as it does with all things

[@Abhishek4893]

Great podcast guys! This is by far the longest podcast I've ever watched, obviously because of the brilliant minds on the show! Lovely to see Ryan! Just a feedback, if you could cover the motorcycle landscape in India for the next one it'd be great! Be it EV performance bikes or ICE! There's a dynamic shift in the motorcycle world being driven from India!

[@nigelmorris7413]

Excellent debate and discussion guys, well done. My last 3 bikes have all been electric (so I'm a convert) but i still love the 47 odd bikes i had before that. Here in Australia we had a 31% increase in all electric motorcycles last year (but a mere 6,561 two wheelers). I love my Livewire...... but 98% of sales are mini motos and scooters so far. I reckon recreational dual sport is the next big niche, maybe the sassy Del Mar as a premium entry?

[@basedury]

i think what ryan briefly touched on was on point. most of us who were attracted to motorcycles like the sound and feeling of riding something with a gasoline engine. i think the idea of bringing bicyclists into electric motorcycle ownership is interesting, and i wouldn’t be surprised if there’s some correlation there. but also, they’re too damn expensive.

[@philb479]

I'm agreeing with you - and things that were already covered in the video - but expounding a bit. A lot of riders got into motorcycles because of their heritage - which is arguably what makes them "cool" - or highway speed, or touring with the wind in their hair, the screaming engines, etc. Few people actually have a motorcycle as a purely practical mode of transportation; they are largely considered "recreational vehicles" for a reason. It's almost inherently an enthusiasts' market. Trying to sell an electric motorcycle to a, let's say "traditional" motorcyclist, is like trying to sell a Tesla to someone who asked about a Lotus Elise. I've heard good things about electric dirt bikes, and that may make more sense for early development; the power is instant - which should help coming out of sharp turns - and it wouldn't be difficult to set up a charging station at just about any track. Outside of that - kind of like they said - it would be easier to inspire the electric cyclist to upgrade to an electric motorcycle than to convince a traditional motorcyclist to make an arguably lateral transition to an often more expensive alternative.

[@philb479]

Longest comment I've ever left on a KZbin video. I need another hobby!

[@basedury]

@@philb479 i agree with you too. and areas outside the US and parts of europe that do rely heavily upon scooters and motorcycles for transportation don’t really have the infrastructure for any electric vehicles yet.

[@AlexOnABoat]

​@@philb479you're totally right about bringing people up through e-bikes to e-motos, I know of three new motorcyclists who were inspired to get into motorcycling having bought e-scooters during lockdown. Selling high powered e-motos to people is at the moment a no-hoper, it's too simple to find fault. Selling something a little bit more than an e-bike to pedestrians, public transport users for city use makes very good sense.

[@fs3994]

I have been riding motorcycles since age 8. In the last 50 years I've seen interest in motorcycling decline with our youth in the US considerably. The world of computer gaming can create a sense of adventure and reward for the young and not so young,at a lot less in expense vs the cost of motorcycle,plus training and license, insurance and safety gear. Not to mention their parents never influenced them because they never rode either. I'm quite the relic in my neighborhood, and I see motorcycles in the US coming to a end as we see it today. Look around your neighborhood and see how many kids you even see riding bicycles and let that sink in.

[@opichocal]

I couldn’t agree more. I was just telling my wife about the 25 year old kid behind us that just bought a Tesla. I can hear him yelling at his computer playing video games till 4 AM. I can picture him living with mommy and daddy until he inherits the house. Lol.

[@sunrisejak2709]

Yes, I'm in your camp having been an avid motorcyclist all my life (now 68). The younger generations certainly do not embrace the freedom of motorcycling as we saw it in our generation. However I suspect the description of the future motorcyclist will change. Actually the popularity of e-bicycles is booming. The future e-motorcycle riders will come from this beginner step. Traditional motorcyclists have a reputation that is not wholly embraced by general society. "Rebels or Hooligans". But the advent of e-bikes and e-motorcycles are embraced as being more "friendly". Quiet, non-threatening, not offensive with sound or smell and most folks look and just smile when I ride my electric motorcycle near them. It's somehow more acceptable. So the future might be folks who find that not offending your neighbor while being frugal and "clean" is a nice experience. Motorcycling will not die but the folks embracing it will not look like easy rider but rather someone from "leave it to beaver". Wholesome and environmentally aware and safety conscious.

[@opichocal]

@@sunrisejak2709 more like a hipster leave it to beaver with a man purse, Birkenstock’s and XS skinny jeans 🤪

[@sunrisejak2709]

@@opichocal 😂👍

[@kevinfox500]

Ryan is the coolest scientist I've seen on KZbin . He'd give Doc Brown a run for the title, I can assure you. Wish I'd had more teachers like him, growing up. Would have made for a better set of memories, and I would have enjoyed learning, more than I aleeady did, and still do today. A daily goal to learn between 1 and 3 things each day. He makes it fun, as do you guys. Thanks for doing what you do.

[@MDKellogg1836]

One of the most advantageous aspects of a new rider getting into two wheel transportation is there is practically zero maintenance. I can take any bike apart and rebuild anything on it, and all that I will need is some torque spec's and I can put it back together. You really don't need know how to turn a wrench to daily ride an electric. I love tinkering with mechanical things but a lot of people do not, they just want to ride.

[@chonkbadonk]

I love motorcycles and ride a 2023 BMW M1000R, but I think 50 years from now, there will be no motorcycles. All cars will be self driving, any agency will be taken from the occupants. Driving due to human error is too dangerous and causes too many deaths.

[@Angry-Lynx]

Sooner or late people will have to move to two wheels or something. Cities are already extremely overcrowded with cars. No matter petrol or electric. But just the amount of cars is huge problem. Also air pollution. Everyone like to bash ev for their nit being envio.friendly. But thats not the point. U emit zero toxic shit in city..... Thats what really matters and directly affects all of us

[@mastweiler22]

Marc Travels in KZbin is traveling from Germany to New Zealand on a Zero, so far he's loving it and would never go back to petrol... 🙂

[@sissonsk]

I own a 2022 Zero S 7.2 and I use it to commute 26 miles to work one way. At this point, my Zero is therapy for me. It has added fun to the commute through heavy, slow, and stupid traffic. I am heavy on the throttle but I stay off freeways. My 26 miles to work uses 60% of the 7.2 kW battery. It cost $14k to get it off the showroom floor and this is too much money for just a commuter bike. If you are looking for a motorcycle experience you will not get it riding an electric bike. I thought I might save money on gas but I would have been better off buying a used KLR 650 or something close to this. I enjoy riding my Zero but its uses are very narrow.

[@gtada]

Battery sharing has additional advantages. If you buy a Zero, you're stuck with that battery. Once it dies, what do you do? If there is a battery sharing system, battery recycling also becomes a much easier proposition.

[@kenjikenjikenj]

One of the reasons why people are excited for Energica is that they're prioritizing both level 2 (AC) and level 3 (dc fast charge) so they arent compromised when charging on either type. The livewire one is crippled when on level 1-2 charging (14 hours 0-100), but takes only 1:15 when on DC. Zero has never supported level 3, though they can charge fairly quickly on AC if the plug supports it (and you equip the correct option) The reason why this is so beneficial is that AC chargers are more common, but DC chargers are faster

[@canul3801]

i do actually thinking about collab revzilla with f9 last week when seeing f9 latest video. this 2 channel most informative motorcycle youtube channel i ever seen. while learning engineering with f9 and seeing mechanical side with shop manual. they showing no bs.

[@cpuuk]

E-bikes do one thing very well, they don't pollute. This makes them great for town work. I think we should view them (cost notwithstanding) as horses for courses and not general replacements.

[@AlexOnABoat]

I was pleased to see you guys mention companies like NIU. I was struck how during lockdown in the UK the traditional motorcycle companies basically shut down, but the Chinese manufacturers of 50cc equivalent scooters and motorcycles, companies like NIU, Super Soco etc took advantage of the fact that no one wanted to use public transport and advertised everywhere, as a result, London is buzzing with little electric scooters and to a lesser extent motorcycles.

[@PerJrgensen1969]

I have test ridden the Del Mar and am happy to confirm for you that, yes, it is in fact a very good motorcycle. Not "good for being electric". A great, enjoyable motorcycle. If, but only if, I'm ready to spring for a second bike to get naughty within 25 miles of my home, it's at the top of my list. There's still no getting around range and top speed limitations.

[@UnbeatenPath1]

For me I like the feeling of the gas engine, noise, and switching gears. Its the whole experience that electric misses

[@rrbasch]

I have been riding a BMW c-Evolution here in CT for the last 5 years , it has 110 miles of range, it’s my daily rider and never had an issue with speed or range anxiety

[@yevgeniykhakhaev9788]

The best IMS we had in Chicago was a couple years ago, where due to corona they decided to hold it in August outside on the farms, instead of in February at a convention center

[@garrettno2906]

I live in Philly and the point about making electric bikes lighter and cheaper really rings true here. I can often get to work faster on a standard pedal bike than my motorcycle just because I'm riding in bike lanes outside of traffic. Hypothetically speaking of course, a sondors is small enough and unique enough that I could probably get away with riding it in a bike lane in heavy traffic. Obviously this is flagrantly illegal in most places, but from my experience it's pretty much what every door dasher on a motor scooter is already doing. Having a small, light electric bike to get around town makes much more sense than a heavy machine cosplaying as an adventure bike.

[@alexwilsonpottery3733]

Just make it legal to lane-split/filter all across America to utilise the full efficiency of motorbikes.

[@El_Guap]

I know this is an old video, but I just wanna add as somebody coming from the electric bike side towards the electric motorcycle side (I’m 48. I’ve ridden motorcycles many times in the past, mostly off-road in Mexico) I’m really looking at the Ryvid Anthem or perhaps the Land. I don’t even plan to take it on the freeway. I just want to use it for city living. I live in Southern California and it would be nice to go on the freeway now and then if I have to, but I understand the range issues. I love the design that Dong put into the Ryvid. I love that it’s lighter than most motorcycles. I love that has got regen on the left-hand, right rear foot brake, and a left-handed front brake. Belt drive The design is smart. Electric motorcycles are just so much less maintenance if you’re not into that crap. And I get some of y’all are into getting greasy. I just want something to work. I’m too busy to deal with learning to be a mechanic too.

[@ciaravino20757]

Energica rides like my Ducati. Also, bikes like the Talaria and Surron fill the city commuter niche well for $4000.

[@fcb6288]

I have looked at Talaria and Surron, and I see them around quite a bit. Here in Oregon, they are in theory illegal on bike paths and not street legal at all. People ride them all over the place, but I am worried about local law enforcement tightening the grip on those, and me getting stuck with a 4k off road only toy.

[@chadc7808]

Combining a solar generator and an electric motorcycle or ebike would make a decent adventure bike. When you get home you can still use the battery as a backup power solution.

[@josefpoole]

Having ridden the BMW CE04, I can say that it is so very nearly exactly what I want in a bike. Storage, comfy, speedy, sick looking. The issues for me are lack of overall range and massive price.

[@the_Acaman]

that massive price is the only thing stopping me from getting one

[@exparrot9074]

1500 KWs/1.5 MW/2011 HP sounds quite exciting even with a motorcycle license

it's kW not KW

[@Be_like_water]

Right😂 must have meant 1500 W

[@exparrot9074]

@ great. Would you like a sticker?

[@momchilyordanov8190]

In my country people buy electric scooters for quite some time. I mean, the ones you sit on, not the ones you stand on. They are typically Chinese no-name scooters, that have range of 50-60 km. And capable of speeds of 60-65 km/h. As city transportation they are pretty good.

[@pacoh199]

I'm 56, old school. I will never buy an electric anything. My SV650 Is a soul moving machine. A 2 wheel golf cart is and will always be lame.

[@MacGoog0]

I am a motorcyclist who also used to be involved in stock car racing most of the tracks I used to go to are closed down due to urban sprawl and noise.

[@DJPTEXAS]

Probably more about real estate value than noise.....

[@slembever]

not a mention of sur ron or talaria, the ones that are nailing it, sad

[@k20nutz]

7:40 is when our Lord and savior joins the video.

[@fcb6288]

I was seriously looking at an electric motorcycle earlier this year. Primary use: commuting to work when nice. Used market for electric bikes, at least locally, is pretty much non existent and most people want waaaaaay too much money compared to the price of a new one. I do not have a place to charge it at home (apartment living). And I still like to take the occasional longish ride. I ended up buying a used Gladius with 9k miles for a third of the money.

[@tuxplorer]

As stated in the video batteries are the main problem for motorcycles. For non urban use, the batteries need to be at least one order of magnitude better than they are today. From my point of view to barely catch up to a normal street motorcycle the minimum requirements are: Triple the capacity in half the weight and volume for one fifth of the price. Which means the battery needs to be 30 fold better that what we have today. And as batteries have seen over 200 years of intensive development there most likely are no quick breakthroughs giving an order of magnitude progress anymore. With a good industrial improvement rate of 5% each year it takes 70 years to improve the batteries 30 fold.

[@sprezzatura8755]

Thank you for that clear explanation. Makes sense.

[@Angry-Lynx]

It needs to be around two and half times more energy dense than already is to compete with ice range. It's still a lot but your 30x number is completely out of as s

[@kicknight]

Every ebike / escooter marketer should watch this!!!

[@stewarts8597]

Great discussion on Electrics. Ryans brings so much to these conversations

[@mmistermusic]

I have an electric Zero DS motorcycle. I recommend it. And I know other electric motorcycle riders that are very happy with it. It is easy to ride, no noise, low maintenance. I charge it with free solar energy. No earplugs at low speeds. I can do 260km on regular roads and 180km on combined roads with highway. Which is better than announced on the zero website. I can ride for 2 to 4 hourse depending on the speed. And I can charge everywhere. There are chargers every 5km. For me this is perfect. I don't want to ride for more than 2 hours without a break. And mine is still a bit basic basic: 14kwh battery and 6kw charging speed. The energica's are +21kwh battery and 20kw charging speeds. An Energica must be fantastic. I don't believe the limited range is really a problem. Charging for 20-30min after 2h is not a problem. And that is on the highway. On normal roads you can ride for half a day. I think the main reason they are not more popular is that they are still quite expensive for the 'hobby-motorist' that want to ride on Sundays. The price is find for a commuter that uses the bike 5x per week. For me it is very cheap, but I do 15000 km per year. If you only do 2000km, and it is a hobby it is too expensive. And of course a bit of conservatism. Some people just don't like change. If it was noisy before and you needed to shift gears, it needs to stay noise and it needs to still have gears. Although both aren't a real advantage.

[@justindavis1546]

My city has a large fleet of electric police motorcycles. One of the riders I talked to said he loved it and the charge runs him for a days work.

[@jimh1021]

I have a friend who owns an Energica (don't know model) it is heavy but he loves it. I worked on a broken luggage part on the bike and it appears to be well made. I own BMWs, and comparatively they're pretty good.

[@saintofall3653]

I think you guys should look up the Ultraviollete F77. It's an amazing bike, has good speed and range. It's only available in India rn, but it might probably be really good in North America.

[@414moto]

Ride a Sur Ron LBX and you'll begin to understand the simplicity and pure joy an electric machine can provide.

[@-dirk-65]

I took pics & plan on msg'n my children. Built a half-pipe in their backyard. New windshield this month on 14th bike. fronk superfast? +memories of my uncle & my State of birth! Bravo & two fat thumbs up.

[@OldManHistory]

It’s not about being green; it’s convenience. I purchased an electric lawn mower because my gas mower leaked gas on my yard, which killed the grass. I was tired of storing a dedicated can of gas and oil in my garage AND the gas smell lingering in my car after getting a refill took days to remove. I’m looking for my first bike and the thought of dealing with changing gears while remembering that the breaks are both one peddle and one handle is a pain. Bring on the electric bikes!

[@MarcSherwood]

I think more more thing that is stopping people from buying electric bikes is many riders buy for what they WANT to do, not what they do for rides. I know so many guys with bikes that don't even put on enough miles in a season to need to change the oil, but they think they need 400 mile rage for their dream rides. This is also why everyone needs many, many bikes.

[@emc4TW]

You might want to refer back to all the emcs you mentioned in your Feb video, "The best electric motorcycles on the market in 2023", and discuss those in this video too... CSC RX1E is delivering now. Kolter RS1 is listed as "in stock" at dealer in Costa Mesa, CA. Ryvid Anthem to be delivered late August. Also, Erik Buell's startup, Fuell, just took in $2m in sales in the first 24 hrs of opening orders for his Fuell Fllow "e-commuter", deliveries planned for late 2024.

[@MotoRideswJohn]

If the price point on electrics ever becomes *truly* competitive, then the world will flip. I recently purchased a Zero SR/S and it has quickly become my favorite motorcycle of all time, and it's competition varies from multiple Gold Wings, Africa Twin, FJR, Tracer, Burgman... And yes, the frunk is bloody awesome. Yes, to tour you need a charging infrastructure, but what most people forget is that if you run out of gas on an ICE, and there are no fueling stations close by, then you're absolutely dead in the water. There's an electrical outlet close by, I promise you.

[@electric_boogaloo496]

A liter of petrol/gasoline in a soda bottle is what used to be the range extender for our motorcycles when I was a teenager. Way easier to hitchhike to the nearest gas station and fill up a bottle, or a proper gasoline container, hitchhike back than it is to bring charging infrastructure back. If you call roadside assistance, it is going to be a diesel powered generator. To access the electrical outlet "close by", you are looking at pushing the 400lbs+ motorcycle, easier said than done.

[@Kevin-hp5fk]

I had a NIU NQi-GT for about a year. It was the best city bike I've ever owned. It'd hit 70kph, easily do 100km and could carry me and my partner at speed. Ended up getting rid of it as my work commute suddenly jumped to about 70km each way and it no longer worked so I went back a Vstrom, but for city use I wish I could've afforded to keep it. EV bikes and mopeds are brilliant.

[@ISLEOVUE]

The big set apart or setback is the engine sound. I love all the fluidless operation of an electric vehicle. Safety is so important for motorcycles as is the need for sound on any electric vehicle. I will buy a E-Moto at some point soon and fit it with electric deer alert (chirps) and LED wheel lights.

[@bikebudha01]

Own a 2019 Zero SR. It's the perfect "city bike". In that "in the city" it does everything perfectly. The only downside is the range/charging means you CAN'T take it out of the city. At 70mph, you get about 70 miles of range. Then, with level 2 charging, it's a 4 hour charge. So you'd ride for 1 freeway hour, stop and charge for 4, then repeat. So, like I said, in town only. In town, I can do 2 weeks of commuting on a single charge (i have a short commute). In my city, there are 'free' charging stations sprinklered around town. I have not paid a dime since i got the bike. I should note I bought the bike used, and essentially paid half price (It was a $19k bike, I got it for $10k - with 1,900 miles on it). - For electric motorcycle to 'truly' be viable, they will need the following 3 things: 1) Range of 250 freeway miles. (More would be better, but 200-250 miles on the freeway means 3-ish hours on the bike. Leg stretching and bathroom break every 3hr works) 2) Charging times need to drop to less than 30 minutes (for 10% to 90%). Given that the range is short anyway, the bike needs to be able to charge to 90%/100% quickly. 3) Cost. An electric bike has so few moving parts. $10k-$15k for a base model needs to be the mark.

[@Angry-Lynx]

U people way exaggerating range issue. My AT which is ADVENTURE bike have barely 300km range. I say everything over 120-150km range for electric bike is fantastic. Nobody will take ⚡ bike for serious road trips anyway, even if u have 300km range . Even cars still struggle with range between cities. It's just EVs are good for different things. Doesn't mean they worse

[@bikebudha01]

@@Angry-Lynx yeah, but you can fill up your adventure bike in 10 minutes and be back on the road. The best ev bikes take 2+ hours to charge (or more)...

[@Tasselhoff88]

No word of Verge motorcycles? Finnish company that made that 1000 Newton hubless torque monster. I thought they were out because you didn't even mention it, but no they're still around. They're apparently coming to NA this year -ish.

[@carpentergirl08]

Finally .. welcome back Ryan!

[@FranFirman]

I have an electric motorcycle and a petrol one. The electric one is a Super Soco Tc Max which has the equiv power of a 125. So top speed 95kph and a range of around 70km with a 3kWh battery and a 4kw motor. My petrol bike is a Honda NC750X. I have also test road an Evoke electric motorcycle, which is closer to around the 400cc sorta power and it was interesting, but had 3 things that put me off. Hub motor, so I felt the extra un-sprung weight, that is uses a J1772 port for charging where here in NZ at least Type 2 is a better option, though that is minor, but the one that really is a pain is that to take the rear off to put on a new tyre or fix a puncture, the power cable to the hub motor has to be disconnected somewhere up the front of the bike and un-threaded from the fairing.

[@p.0-npcg.248]

A swapable and outlet chargeable battery on electric transport is a must! If you are living outside of Canada and worried about it being stolen, then design a few Li-pols located near a fancy internal lock and add a label "Explodes outwards"

[@asharak84]

As someone riding a light small electric motorbike on a ~20 minute commute for the last few years... I'd agree they're perfect for that setting. Still pretty hesitant on bigger EV motorbikes. (Am tempted by a second-hand Zero FX. New they're just too expensive for effectively the same use-case for me) Edit: One thing I think is missing from the discussion you three had is that batteries as range is important, but so is charging. A Zero has not amazing range, but crucially when it exhausts that range it takes a very long time to charge. A Tesla has much more range, but also charges so fast that using all of the range is no big deal - stop for 20-30 minutes when nearly empty and you're hundreds of miles of range back up. That's one area where I hear good things about Energica - while they may not blow away a Zero on initial range, they support DC fast charging using the established CCS standard (here in the UK) which means you can realistically travel well beyond your single charge range in a day. Not ridden one though :( Edit2: Ryan you're wrong about hydrogen :D physics might make it seem ok but engineering and economics are horrific for it, and small size vehicles is hydrogen at it's very worst. Though I look forward to seeing if you turn out to be right :)

[@jaysnyder67]

I have an electric-converted vintage Vespa. It has about 5kwh wroth of battery, and a 4kw "rated" motor, though, I'm putting up to 14kw through it the way the controller is configured. My use case for this bike is it is my "around town" bike for all my local errands. It has quick enough acceleration to be fun (way quicker than the 125cc 2T motor that was in it), and range of about 45-50 miles the way I ride it. It will do 62 MPH, and keeps up with the 45-50 MPH rural traffic that I ride in quite well. I've got about $5k into it. Something like the Sonders with a top case or other cargo capacity added would be ideal for this use-case. Post-covid, I only go into the office twice a week now. If I was still commuting every day, I'd have an electric motorcycle for that use case now. My commute + extra range to run out for lunch is just beyond the range of my E-Vespa. I still enjoy my petrol-powered bike, and use them for my two-day-a-week commute, in addition to recreational riding.

[@MantasJurkuvenas]

I got Chinese 125cc motorbike for 2000 GBP. That's the same price as ebike, but so much better

[@raulsalanaranjo6565]

I think costs will make electric bikes more appealing in the long run. Their simplicity makes maintaining them much, much easier, especially in certain cases like motocross or enduro

[@ms-jl6dl]

They're 30% more expensive than their IC counterparts. They need to get 30% cheaper to get accepted.

[@mmistermusic]

@@ms-jl6dl It all depends on how much you ride. I ride with free solar energy and I have low maintenance costs. If I would only 2000 km per year the electric motorcycle would be more expensive. But if I do +15000 km per year it is much cheaper than a legacy bike. I easily save 1500 euro per year. So for me it is fine that it is 5000 euro more expensive to buy. People need to count the TCO, not only the purchasing price. But I agree with you, price is still the biggest problem. But the good thing is that it can easily become cheaper when there will be more suppliers. A 15kwh battery only costs about 4000 euro/dollar.

[@asterix908]

All the advantages mentioned of not needing gear, clutch and it being easier for new riders are present today on DCT already at half the price.

[@holisticaustralia]

Thankyou for being the voice of reason Zach when Spurgen splits hairs between 1st and 3rd of May, what a Maroon...

[@TinyPaperClip]

saw fortnine and clicked on reflex

[@BagerGman]

NIU, at least in China, had a removable battery. I had a NIU scooter from 2018-2022 living in Beijing and it was great to pull my battery and take it to my room or workplace and charge. The replacement battery thing for scooter is you mentioned is primarily Gogoro scooters. You see the battery changing stations that look like lockers around Taipei and other areas of Taiwan. As far as scooters go, I never saw battery changing stations in China, minus the electric taxis.

[@bleufingerrider376]

Great show! I agree, good to have different viewpoints on any topic. The prediction that (electric) motorcycles will get extinct may be applicable for the great open landmass of the US and Canada, but here in Europe (and other dense populated areas, India and the like) I think there will be a future for them.

[@knobby4]

I own and ride an Energica Experia now, in Australia....I've had it since February and it's a damn good motorcycle...powerful, quick and handles very well for it's 260kg weight. I ride it to work and back each day, which is a round trip of over 100km...and I can easily do this twice and still have over 20% SOC left. Electric motorcycling is getting better all the time, it's not quite there yet...but not too far away. The "away from home" fast charging infrastructure isn't great where I live but time will hopullfy get it sorted.

[@richmountainrendezvous9472]

We got to use Zero FXEs for Discover the Ride at IMS a few years ago. Even though they were governed for our never-rode-before guests, they were super fun! Looking forward to getting one some day soon, hopefully. Great discussion!

[@soyebaswat5382]

I've ridden Zero's and Energica's and my opinion is the Zero's are very competent bikes, especially the smaller capacity bikes. Of the two Energica's I have ridden, the Eva Ribelle was spectacularly fast, but the real star was the Experia which was fantastic to ride. I only had one criticism of the Experia, I felt it needed a little more power, but even as it is I would be very happy to buy one.

[@robertstimmel1100]

Is there any chance of bringing Lemmy on as a guest? I miss the big man Edit: or Anthony. So we can watch, decide, and ride with him one last time

[@ronladuke7235]

Excellent guys always love hearing from Ryan!

[@RedlineVulpine]

My room mate has a fairly new Zero SR/F - their flagship sport bike with the biggest battery and longest range - and it is decently potent, but even going 50mph down twisty roads leads to a range of just over 60 miles. It takes 30-60 minutes on a parking lot fast charger to get it back to full charge, and about six hours on a regular house plug. For the price of $20,000+ they could have had a Streetfighter V4 even. My MT-10 was almost half the price and it consummately outperforms the SR/F in every way except gas mileage, obviously... though if I am being honest, the MT-10 really doesn't outperform anything in gas mileage! I think if you are using the SR/F exclusively for commuting a short distance it can make sense, but even though it is a flagship bike that should really be able to open up and stretch its legs, it is relegated to the garage or charger while your friends go off and enjoy their full day of riding. I will say that It is a very cool experience riding it though!

[@TheAnnoyingBoss]

The problem is the cost is way too high for a bike that is merely capable if going to walmart and back and not really even if you live far away. You ride it to run errands and now your huge expense has to charge and you havent even had fun riding. You can buy used motorcycles for 1500-6000 bucks all day long that will go farther and gas station in every town. I paid 4k and got a 1600cc kawasaki with floorboards it had like 2860 miles and was 12 years old. It had like a 5 gallon tank you could probably get about 200 miles on it. Going 80mph all day long. I jist think we need ti asmit at this point these things really are kinda a scam imo. Theres a lot of really good 10k bikes that are more capable than the best zero that is the most expensive. Or at least thats what it feels like. You can get an mt09sp. You got indian scouts. Way better

[@SpottedCreeper]

It depends on what you're looking for. Both of you make very valid points, especially about the price. They are too expensive. However, as a commuter my Zero SR/F has been the best bike I've ever had by miles - I've had a lot of bikes in my 20 years of riding, and nothing has come close to the convenience of my Zero. My commute is 26 miles one-way (mix of freeway and town riding). So no matter how hard I hit it, I can get to work and back on a single charge. I charge it overnight, so the charge time is irrelevant to me - if it takes 2,3, 4 6 hours.. doesn't matter. Each morning I have a full 'tank'. As a weekend fun bike to ride with others - forget it. As a track day fun bike - forget it. As a long ranger tourer - pretty much forget it - I mean, it's possible but you'll need a lot of time on your hands, cos you're gonna be charging a lot. For info, i get about 110 miles in the summer and about 100 miles in winter if I ride sensibly (ie. not hammering it away from lights, and sticking to the speed limits). If I don't ride sensibly, I'm looking at about 70 miles. Maintenance is pretty much zero. Tyres are the only thing I need to replace. It's belt drive so after the initial tighten after 1000 miles it doesn't really need a check again until it's annual service. Have been riding my SR/F for 5 years now, it's unlikely I'll go back to an ICE bike. I really enjoy the quiteness of it - something that surprised me as I thought I'd miss the gear changes, and the pops and growls from my previous ICE bikes but i don't. I also really appreciate being able to glide through villages and they don't even know I'm there (yes, I'm getting old :D ) I know my use case is not everyone's use case, but I'm just pointing out that they do work for some people :)

[@larsmenken2679]

It really comes down to why people have their bikes and what they are actually using it for. Look at the BMW GS, the people that really ride them for adventure will not ever buy an electric bike. The people that ride them 10 miles to working back ride them as a status symbol, and they might be in a market for a new toy. It's the in town SUV on 2 wheels. It comes down to what we believe the ratio of those who ride big bikes for bike bike sake versus those who ride them 'as they are intended'

[@victoriazero8869]

@@TheAnnoyingBoss "The problem is the cost is way too high for a bike that is merely capable if going to walmart and back and not really even if you live far away." Tell that to 1250GS and Moto Guzzi rider...