Reworking Kingdom Rush's Towers Because Ironhide Won't

[@therealmorganofficial]

Dude this sounds awesome. Well done!

[@sethanpayne6324]

I did the math. Let’s say we only did 4 different types (Archer, Barracks, Mage, and Artillery) and Archer Mage Archer, and Mage Archer Archer, were the same tower, that leaves us with… 4 lvl one towers, 10 lvl two towers, 20 lvl three towers, and 35 lvl four towers. This leads towards 69 different towers. This is less than Vengeances 84 towers, but way way more than the previous 20 towers But, 35 lvl 4 towers is WAY more customization than 21 lvl 4 towers in Vengeance. I feel like this idea has a ton of potential

[@tamas9554]

Yeah, most of those towers in Vengeance aren't really different towers. Its like saying the mage and adept tower are "different", but really one is just a slightly better version of the other. DJ's idea however leaves even more room for balance issues. The problem which many concepts end up having, is not working that well in practice. Most of these routes could end up being unused even for levels where they'd be especially useful, simply because there is a better general option like bonus damage. It requires tons of planning and looking into other games to nail a system like this. But I think its interesting to think about :D

[@HighLanderPonyYT]

Not having enough options is bad, but having too many is also bad. Cool stuff!

[@Cozyn3z]

This is a great idea, too bad I wouldn't trust Ironhide with the balance of all those combinations (Or anyone for that matter) My proposal would have be to combine the two systems. The 4 tower type system and 2 specialization is the same, but you pick between different specializations in the tower menu. Looks like we won't see any of this for the time being, Ironhide is sticking with the Vengeance system for kr5, I only hope they have improved it drastically this time around.

[@user-Issa4less]

I've honestly thought the same thing before, & one thing you could add on top of it would be to choose abilities for the tower specializations out a few options beforehand, akin to how legends allowed you to switch between abilities before combat. Say for example, you could choose to let the ranger's hideout have the poison arrows & wrath of the forest abilities, or you mix & match by having the poison arrows alongside having a chance to ricochet between a few enemies, or have wrath of the forest alongside being able to summon a couple of ent wolfs like from legends. Something like this would allow for multiple options, but in a digestible way that's unique and easy to implement.

[@alyasVictorio]

That's what we've talking about, and you hit the nail in our head with these

[@rudyh721]

The concept is really cool but I think it would be better with 4 types, since they could have less towers (only 35 level four towers) which means that they could focus more on balancing and giving personality/artwork to each tower combination. Or hell, maybe you can only combine two types. Imagine if it was a barracks, you put as many barracks upgrades as you want, and you have freedom to choose a hybrid upgrade for awhile. Now since you could have 5 tiers, you could make it a 4-1 or a 2-3 or a 3-2 or whatever. This would take away a bit of the player freedom, but it reminds me of how in Bloons, you have 3 upgrade paths and it locks you to just using 2, which forces you to make long-term decisions for your tower. One thing I really did appreciate about the classic kingdom rush upgrade paths is that each tier 4 tower was unique and had so much personality because of the sfx, voice lines, artwork, upgrades etc. I do wanna emphasize though, as a kingdom rush fan for over a decade, this concept is really unique and I’d love if they used it.

[@EnragedPilgrim]

They need to make a barracks that sends troops coming down from the path to the spawn point of the enemy

[@namanagupt]

They did that in junkworld and everybody shit talked it cuz it was bad

[@namanagupt]

But the lack the macro is bed

[@EnragedPilgrim]

@@namanagupt Such a shame 😔

[@stressbanana6821]

So the Necromancer or the skeleton guy from vengeance

[@EnragedPilgrim]

@@stressbanana6821 Yes 😎😎😎😎

[@qqncpsp]

Great idea! It's true, strategy games are about choices BUT choices also mean bad choices! Few placement options for towers should prevent you from building every tower wherever you need it. You have to decide which tower makes sense in which place. In the first KR, the level 4 towers are not that specialized. The Abilities take care of that. Archer, for example: Poison is the Mage upgrade. Vines are the barrack upgrade. Sniper is Archer and Shrapnel is Artillery. An jack of all trades would be the answer to everything and prevent bad choices. What do you mean by Tech and Nature? (Archer are fast, Mage is strong, Barracks block and Artillery does area damage.)

[@chibsta7171]

jack of all trades wouldnt exactly solve everything, with these situations i personally go for an insane dmg strat. As of now on vengance i aim to get the smelting furnace buff on every level even if the tower itself isnt that great in its position. Perhaps a full dps/speed archer would be the key to some levels.

[@MilkmanCR]

3:27 I HATE this mechanic from Junkworld and dont want it in the next kingdom rush. Not having restriction on tower placement just makes every round spamming a bunch of towers at a choke point instead of having to choose what can go at such chokepoint and building around it

[@isyhamsamvr1362]

As an upcoming game dev, i would like to maybe try some of these out. Might make something out of them if they turn out to be fun changes

[@gta-carmodz9039]

So there is... 5 Level 1 Towers, 15 Level 2 Towers, 35 Level 3 Towers, 70 Level 4 Towers, 126 Level 5 Towers. That would make 251 different Towers. Would love many towers and a wide range to select from but that seems a little to much...

[@itsamine4840]

A combo of engineering and ranger could be archers that shoot explosive rockets. Barracks and engineering could a be a metal walk that blocks all enemies and with another upgrade in engineering you could put barbed wire on it and make enemies attacking it take damage.

[@Sailorboon-ez8sj]

If iron hide watches this video and implements what this dude says I will never play a kingdom rush game again.

[@Derpyisdead]

Why? It’s interesting idea

[@Sailorboon-ez8sj]

@@Derpyisdead No if you add too many tower combos there becomes a meta

[@Derpyisdead]

@@Sailorboon-ez8sj yeah which I love,the community will love it

[@Derpyisdead]

The mods also does that and it’s saving the games

[@pardusmk2595]

​@@Derpyisdead Any meta game will came to 2 things: meta dominators and crybaby comunity ALL THE TIME

[@willfur3328]

My original idea would’ve been something like letting players choose the 2 upgrade options in the menu for those 5 tower types. I still would prefer tower spots, just with maybe maybe more spots. What I think the problem with multi-classing will cause is causing specific towers combinations to be underutilized. Because of weird combinations that’s not really optimal or whatnot. When designing 1 tower, the devs can keep in mind the whole direction of that one tower which I like, when you mish-map like that it causes a lot of work for the designs and assets, and also balancing problems. Additionally since I know IronHide wants to monetize on this, they can add new tower options, without needing to add a new set of combinations and also only design that one specific spec. I do think aspects of your idea is cool like charms and a bigger map is cool, but there are certain parts of it that doesn’t really blend well with Kingdom Rush’s style and strategy. Having tower spots for example is a unique take without being able to place anywhere and leads to more strategy. I do think having a bit more micromanaging options is cool like a tower that targets anywhere on the map or the targeting like you said. But that also sounds like BTD6. I think what would fit KR more is if the tower’s innate abilities do this instead. And also to fit this with the lore, maybe denas and Vez’nan teamed up to unite their troops and created 5 base towers, and whatever the player chooses, with the power of both sides’s tech and brawn, they can use whatever units they want to. And every DLC they can add new towers to this.

[@deadlydelusion.]

I feel like the look of the tower should only change for the first two upgrades, every other upgrade or charm would add a little indicator, maybe a thing flying around the tower or the color pallete of it would just change. But. If the tower was upgraded for example five times in one direction like 5 times barracks, there could be a little bonus to it like one more soldier, or the soldiers having a unlockable passive. I love the idea although it's not gonna happen in kr5, I think if they added it to kr6 if it ever happens would make it the best tower defense game out there. Love your content man, keep cooking!!

[@danielplocica8766]

My idea was to use the vengence loadout system, but for level 4 choices. So you can choose which 2 L4 tiers you can spec your tower to. The player choice is given back with the original 8 choices, and the towers at the beginning of the game aren't op since it's just the 4 main types. But with the sense of choice and combination the vengeance DOES more or less contain. It will also make the towers not feel so weirdly similiar, 3 mages but slightly different will feel right as they're all level 4 wizard towers. As for your idea, you are still underestimating the amount of balancing, stat changes, and making cool ideas for how the tower works each tower would need. Even the less detailed tower visuals are harder to make, since unless you will workaround it and just use the first tower type and then add particles, some copypasted trees on the left for nature, some copypasted crystals on the walls for magic, you will either have very bland towers that are hard to tell what is what, also what does tech do? Is it artilery? Is so, what about nature? Just some stunning vines and healing?

[@Zoodude254]

1. I actually think the Junk-world world "place anywhere" method would work really well in this case. Surprised they haven't done it yet (at least it hasn't been announced as such) 2. Love the concept of the Charms, def tying them to achievements (like Wildfrost) would alter game play and actually make me want the Achievements beyond just "100% Completion." 3. The only tweak I would make to your system would be to say: Instead of every level, only the final level gets a different Multiclass, using a system of Tags. For example, an archer for 3 levels and then the 4th level you choose one of the other Types/Tags. Using Archer as an example, we get: 4th Level Ranger (Tag): The Longbow Tower; massive range and killing power. 4th level Magic (Tag): The Arcane Archer Tower, faster shooting with magic reisteance eroding arrows. 4th level Tech (Tag): The Musketeer, Insane range and 1 shot, 1 kill potential. 4th Level Nature (Tag): The Rangers: Tangle enimies, difficult terrian, posion, you know 'em lol. 4th level Barracks: Elvish Archers: trained with scimitars and bows, they are the most versitle on the field. With regards to this, each tower you select instead gets 1 of 5 different upgrade paths, so if you work your way up a tree, you'll end up with a different result if you go Barracks -> Magic, than Magic-> Barracks. Barracks(Magic) would give you tough Magic resistant Paladins, but Magic(Barracks) would give you Sorcerer Elementalists and their earth golem. Basically instead of two choices every tower gets 5, but then have MORE tower types like Vengence. A Magic Zombie Barracks looks and acts different than a Tech Orc Barracks, or a Nature Human Barracks looks different to a Nature Elven Archer. the possibilties are endless. I'm gonna go work through this.

[@Uutalo]

As much as this sounds cool I think it’s just setting up for disappointment. I know they have already confirmed that they are going back to the original engine that they used for the first three games but I’m pretty sure in the discord they also confirmed that they are still doing tower selection similar to how Vengeance was. If they gave us 5 towers to select and also gave them multiple upgrade paths that would be perfect and I think would do great. But I also won’t be surprised if it’s just like vengeance where you pick a tower and it only has the one upgrade path even though this is something I REALLY don’t want. Idk I just want them to really knock this game out of the park but I’m worried our expectations will get the better of us.

[@Zoodude254]

@@UutaloYeah I'm not pitching what 5 will be, just what a perfect world might look like.

[@Uutalo]

@@Zoodude254 that’s fair. I really hope they learn from the critiques of Vengeance and just make this game amazing. I want it to be the most customizable and grand in scale I guess. Pipe dreams for sure but we can hope lol. I just want a release date so I can manage my excitement lol

[@mxkkaraoke]

Oriental Dynasty Silk Road has using "charms" in their game and it not so broken. I think Ironhide should consider about that and target prioritization is something i hope for.

[@ArchHood]

İronHide should hire this guy

[@drfreeman3908]

Ah yeah, the idea guy, the most important part of any project.

[@Lolo_Renzo]

so kingdom rush 5 towers system will be like 4 or is there a twist

[@piewar3076]

I like where this is going. I just hope that if something like this happens, the game gives the player reasons to specialize each of their towers’ upgrades for certain things instead of just making every tower do everything. I still want to have reasons to somewhat specialize one tower as a barracks tower and another tower as a mage tower even if I have the option for some overlap.

[@phillipbutler7591]

I do not agree with the grid/junkworld system for towers. Some of the uniqueness, fun and challenge of kingdom rush is in those limited spots. And multiple exits makes you think. Unless there’s more than 3 exits, it isn’t that hard to do. But on the other hand, have multiclass towers and having so many means somebody finds out the 5 best ones and that all anyone uses. Sure, Tesla was good in the first game. But it had no way of slowing enemies, and overcharge was the only good upgrade it had, plus it had bad to ok range. This also doesn’t feel like kingdom rush. It almost feels like BTD. No grid or select placements, cross pathing. Plus charms don’t feel like ironhide. Part of the charisma of the ironhide games is they are fun, not that complex, player can do pretty much whatever they want, and they can be creative in their own challenges. It feels like this would be like those game where people either have 3,000 hours and are sweaty neckbeards or 30 minutes because it’s too complex and they dropped it. If any big point in this video is in KR5, I don’t think I would enjoy it.

[@jammingend3781]

So, I think it's important that you have a base tower, aka the first tower type you place is the baseline. Why? That would streamline the effects of further upgrade (placing a barrack type and giving it a hunter upgrade increases the unit attack speed). This way you still have to strategize the tower placement. This also makes it easier to base abilities off with the different types. In addition, I'm a game developer and I could definitely make a proof of concept for you :)

[@luckymanx2978]

The only problem with this is that the towers will look homogeneous. Creating 126 different sprites all with animations is to much. I think something in middle would be great. For me the look of the tower is a lot of the fun. I love bladesinger's hall, and golden longbows because they look sick and have sick voice lines which can't be done with that many towers

[@JCho133]

You should get the sides of your head shaved even closer and leave the top a bit longer so that way your hair doesn’t do the weird grow out + sideburns thing on the sides as quickly

[@kiksphenx3210]

Imadgen like barracks that are kind of miks of barbarians and mages that can shoot enemies form a distance but when enemies come close do them they like tp behind them (BCS Thay are good at magic) and first attack does like 100-200 damage and then they just fight with there magic wands and stall enemies and when enemies are far they can also freeze groups of enemies

[@prahant]

This Sounds Very Good, Would be Great if ironhide Implements it 🤩!

[@zephyrjmilnes]

The chimp in focus while your face isn’t 😂

[@ChristosGoulios]

holy shit, this vid was randomly given upon me but i love it :).

[@robica4193]

Ironhide: but we can t make money from towers like this

[@griffincrump5077]

I do think sticking to specific upgrade spots would be better, the freedom of grid or BTD tower placement actually ends up limiting what you can do with the game design of a level and I think the way iron hide has handled tower placement spots up to this point has been a major boon for the overall strategic nuance of the first 3 kingdom rush games (haven’t played enough vengeance to have a strong opinion there)

[@Sr_Illuminati]

This would give me a headache trying to strategise.

[@DanTheSpearton]

this is really cool man subbed also hear me out but how cool would a KR mmorpg be with some elements of tower defense also implemented

[@deadlock_problem]

tldr nondev designers makes the most complex confusing set of towers that would take too much time to make

[@richardkapantow1]

do you guys know the game that simillar toh kingdom rush but the towers are toy and you have to protect the baby from monster

[@CisnePelado]

The premise reminds me to Toys vs Nightmares, although the mechanics are rather similar to PvZ than KR

[@richardkapantow1]

@@CisnePelado Not that sadly, i cant not found this game sad :(

[@eastender2048]

It's very interesting though it does remind me of an old game that actually does the same thing that it allows the player to mix the towers though there's actually just 3 types magic, melee, and archer and you can kix and match them and it even uaves sandbox mode but unfortunately google apps has removed it

[@Hunor02]

Could you rerank the vengeance towers and heros because of the balance cjange

[@michal4284]

I really like this speech

[@Ikako32]

they should also add an engine type thing where players can create and design levels and upload them so that others can download and play it

[@andrefasching1332]

I watched the vid because kingdom rush was what i played back then on on these flash game sites with my lil cousin next to me. good times. Now my two cents. -multiple combinations will only lead to either balancing until it does not matter or players using 3-5 main towers as they are objectivly op. Did you use all 8 towers in the OG game? I did not. Its called "meta" and is a problem of any complex strategy game. -a lot of the stuff you describe is already in bloons. You wanna play bloons? play bloons. Dont turn a game with its own identity into a bloons ripoff. My biggest point: Tower defense is...how do i put it? Its the lowest form of strategy. Does not mean its bad. It just means the concept is not made for great complexity. Maybe its simply time for you to outgrow the small universe of TD games and start playing some medium size strategy games. Maybe you even wanna look into the vast abyss of grand strategy games. EDIT: I like the passion you put into the vid. Those games are indeed worthy of attention.

[@smangy5442]

I'd prefer when you go to build a tower you have 4 choices of each class type, magic, ranged, artillery, barracks. that way in a level you don't have 8 choices like in the first 3 games, you don't have 5 pre-selected choices like in vengeance, but you have 16 choices. 4 of each class.

[@penyu1913]

so im planning to make like hololive kingdom rush fan game. and is kind of open for ideas (but not that much i think this is enough. what the video proposing is that make kingdom rush more like bloons like "cross path" have "have stronger tier" etc etc and personally i have absolutely 0 problem with the artilery,archer,mages,barrack i think its a neat balanced system already. so in my hololive KR game it will be like = hero are mandatory and each hero would provide different reincforcement and rain of fire type effect. (in addition all hero would be balancley op so that player have a comfort hero that they can personally choose without sacrificing other option). hero can be upgraded by specific tower. like lets say i have magnus spell bane as a hero. there will be an option to upgrade magnus if you're using arcane wizard tower. (this is in order to encourage late game potential that are always unique to each game) stages specific tower. so because of the story mode that will have in my game each stage will limit to certain tower (like iron challange) its kind of like vengance rule where sometimes you play as the enemy sometimes you play as the ally. but also there are tower that will be unavailable if that tower betray the main character in the story.

[@awesomekraken]

i love ur ideas but i dont think ironhide will be arsed to put in this much effort

[@euler2117]

Great Tower idea. Curious on the main theme of nature? I assume tech is more of support and utility. Will nature be similar?

[@valakivalaki5798]

2 barracks 2 tech 1 marksman = dwarves running around with guns :)

[@MeNtAlMonkey293]

A good all a round combo would be: 1 Magic upgrades 2 Ranger upgrades 2 Barrack upgrades This would be good because it would have (I think it would have) 4 ground troops (due to the barracks upgrades) it would have an average fire rate, and good range (due to the ranger upgrades) and it would do around 20 damage per hit (due to the magic upgrade)

[@HighLanderPonyYT]

Funny, the upcoming game claims to do just this.

[@principleshipcoleoid8095]

Maybe 3 lvls with 5 types could be more managable

[@Tighnari]

Normal 4 categories but 4 specializations

[@JCho133]

The 126 different combinations statistic is faulty because as you stated, a ranger + mage lvl 2 is identical to a mage + ranger lvl 2 and so on. I think an easy solution to this would be to only allow crossbreeding every 2 levels (so upgrade 3 and upgrade 5) meaning you could do stuff like this: xxyyz xxxxz xxyyy xxyyx And so on (Not able to do xyzzy though XD)

[@pedropaco9890]

Placing the towers wherever you want wouldn't work we need restrictions everything in this game revolves around strategizing

[@Finzombie]

Incredible

[@leon--osseusii4664]

Good luck trying to balance every level or enemy comp with those 134+ different tower combinations on litterarly any grid in the map without pre established tower spot dingus...

[@josephc8440]

Genius bro

[@thunderred5263]

maybe three options for kr5

[@MeNtAlMonkey293]

Do kingdom rush origins with only one tower

[@lollocane2317]

All pretty cool but it's Just anotuer game. Cool but not Kingdom rush in my opinion.

[@riolu477]

Hey DJ i doubt you'll see this but, i have been searching for a game for a long time, i remember it being kingdom rush but i cant find any information about it, it used to be in facebook, and played and had roughly the same graphics as kingdom rush, the main core difference is that it had a story mode, its hub had both the levels but also a small like city upgrader with quests and everything, however, facebook has removed a LOT of its old games, i really hoped that this was rush kingdom legends or vengence but it wasn't, so im kinda at a loss here, i continue watching your videos and playing kingdom rush but still miss that game, its unlikely you played it, but if you did, and if you hapoen tonbe reading this, i hope i can at least get the name of the game, even if its become unplyable for one reason or another

[@DJ-yp9xn]

Low key sounds familiar, but idk. Maybe ask the KR reddit? Those gamers are pretty smart...

[@MeNtAlMonkey293]

Great video, also I need an opinion, who do you think is better in Kingdom Rush Vengeance should I use isfet or Jack’o’latern

[@mike007ro3]

I really like this idea but the problem to me is the fact that it whouldn't be kingdom rush anymore The idea is great and would make an awesome game but it just ain't kr...

[@notafamousguy462]

I like the idea of five tower types but you kinda lost me at multiclassing

[@Marse913]

Ultimate jelly go tower defense simulator

[@pardusmk2595]

Best TD have choises BEFORE LEVEL PvZ and KR So FUCK NO ,we dont need more reaction and timing choises ,but instead keeping same choises as before Point Oh wait you are a mobile player ,you didnt even have right to say, i allmost forgot shis And if be serious ,you dont want to upgarde or "fix" KR ,you want a new game ,totally(like sacrisife LOOK ,like most important in game thing ,to gameplay ,lol) its not bad, its okay for that much time spended in game Just be honest with yourself

[@smn7844]

Why are you so damn happy

[@aabadiyfirmaanfaizal2190]

:D

[@El_firoz]

Bro just play in casual mode

[@fatihfatih4519]

krv has the best system out of the 4

[@Derpyisdead]

Yes