LS ROLLER ROCKER TEST-DO THEY WORK?

FULL RESULTS. LS ROLLER ROCKER TEST. WHAT IS A ROLLER ROCKER? HOW DO THEY WORK? IS THE POWER WORTH THE PRICE? DO YOU NEED MORE SPRING RATE? CHECK OUT THIS TEST ON A 4.8L WHERE WE COMPARE THE STOCK LS ROCKERS TO A SET OF COMP 1.72:1 ROLLER ROCKERS. SEE WHAT HAPPENS WHEN YOU DON'T HAVE ENOUGH VALVE SPRING.

[@Shane-Singleton]

Richard you're the hardest working guy in the auto performance industry! You're a machine!

[@timothybolden9955]

I stand by that too!

[@Inviting1word]

Hes off his rocker, and I glad.

[@smithjohn3080]

Richard you really need to get a good editor, and a lavalier Bluetooth mic so you don't have to yell at the camera and sound like Billy Mayes

[@garretth177]

Big facts

[@philofab]

These dyno videos are one of my favorite things on KZbin. Thanks for doing what you do.

[@lowkd5465]

philofab straight knowledge

[@miketavenermedia7853]

Richard, you are one of the best sources for information on engines on KZbin period!! This channel is like a non-commercialized version of Engine Masters! Thank you for doing what you are doing!!!! I am writing a bunch of this info down. I have a 4.8 in my Silverado, I am going to build another 4.8 and my 16 year old and I are going to start going to the local drag strip strictly off of the information I have learned here! Thank you!!!

[@animaltbss9439]

I would love to see 1.7 vs 1.8 rocker comparison on LS

[@bennyboyy7]

More lift so more power, just multiply the cam lift by the ratio and you'll get your lift.

[@dylanspencer3662]

@@bennyboyy7the power of more lift will only come if the heads can flow enough.

[@dennisrobinson8008]

Aftermarket and ported LS heads usually DO FLOW more after .500" and .600" lift.@@dylanspencer3662

[@Artoconnell]

I thought that was the video was about. somehow the 1.8 dropped off the back. unsure.

[@bryanleverett2830]

Holly cow. Someone just gave me a set of LS roller rockers lol. Your super right on time lol

[@justkp1]

I want to see the same test with a cam upgrade

[@anthonyborg5897]

please keep making these kinds of videos, you are doing the car community a great service!!!!

[@patlandymore7035]

A very thorough and honest test. Thanks very much for this one Richard!!

[@jeffdughman9741]

the data you give us is a gift to man kind,thank you for doing what we cant and showing us the way,iv learned more from you then i have anyone else/

[@congstrong221]

I would love to see a max effort cam shootout on stock or semi modified ls1/6.0. Would love to see how old cams like T-REX, Ms3/4,G5x. Compare to newer grinds like summit stage 4, or even Tick, Btr and Comp max effort cams. Also loving the high quality technical content.

[@tomcampbell4414]

Perfectly and thoroughly explained! Thanks!!

[@knucklestheechidna5718]

I work at the post office just starting out, it's pretty rough your first while till you make regular. When I watch these videos I think about the LS motor I'm going to build with all this overtime and it makes it feel more worth it plus I get to learn about them while I'm delivering the mail. Thanks dude.

[@DodgyBrothersEngineering]

Richard you missed talking about one of the greatest benefits to a roller rocker, and that is the decreased wear on the valve tip and valve stems / guide through reducing side load. Especially important on high lift cams.

[@Robert_Paulson1360]

And this is EXACTLY why guys eat valve guides and valve stems with aggressive cams. No one seems to understand this especially with the LS7 stuff.

[@richardholdener1727]

good point

[@originalscottfree]

I learned something new, good way to spend 12:11 of my day. Thanks to the OP!

[@HeyLiana1]

That was a great explanation of rocker arms I think I’ve owned every early variety of roller rocker

[@bdugle1]

I’ve heard that “full” roller rockers solve another issue, valve guide wear. The RPM guys are constantly fixing LS7s with head problems particularly associated with that design. Also, Trick Flow recommends roller rockers for their heads, I believe. Still, the addition of 1.72 rockers to the stock 4.8 adding 13hp was a surprise to me. Another super video, thanks!

[@brianwilson3076]

I have high lift slow ramp(ish) EPS lobes on my custom Geoff Skinner cam in my 6.2 ls3. Love the lobes. Very quiet and great with my vvt very easy on my valvetrain.

[@dennisrobinson8008]

Another video they showed stock rocker arm ratios are usually short and not consistent. So a Chevy 1.5 rocker arm might be 1.35 ratio and a 1.6 might be 1.45 or 1.50, so going to a true 1.6 or 1.7 or 1.8 ratio rocker arm gives you the increase over the factory ratio and also the increase in the ratio. So the 1.72 over the stock arms giving 13hp is not too suprising. That stock arm i believe ratio was 1.7 but the actual ratio may have been 1.55 or 1.60 due to quality control. So the true 1.72 gives a gain of almost .15 or .1 increase in rocker ratio.

[@stvmassacre]

I thank you for running this test. I'm currently building a 355 and the cam I have is Crane Energizer, .480/.480. I want to add a set of 1.6 roller rockers to get a little more cam. The heads are a L98 2.02/1.6 valves ported to the max. Springs will handle up to a .575 lift. 👍👍 and thanks again.

[@datasailor8132]

Once again a great video. There are upgraded trunion kits to replace the actual needle bearings which have been problematic with increased HP, spring pressure load, and higher RPMs. That's the route I would take and if that proves insufficient go all the way to rocker arms linked by a through bar to reduce flexing of the mount.

[@Wickhaven1]

Dam dude, slow down! You are rocking the videos out. I’m a Pontiac guy (yes I saw it) but I thoroughly enjoy every video. Such a wealth of knowledge and experience and expertise.

[@erenzoscroggins8056]

Thanks for the Great info as always... Didn't know about the lost of cam lift in between.... Great info

[@twiztid1fiddy]

Best channel on KZbin to date!! Not even kiddin

[@tom-mo2pd]

Another great informative video. I have been looking for this exact info ! Thanks

[@HioSSilver1999]

Good test. I ran roller rockers for years on a bolt on ls6. Every little bit counts.

[@ercost60]

Excellent video, narration and conclusion. TYVM!

[@frankirvine316]

Good explanation Richard, Happy New Years✅ Lot involved once you start changing what engineers have in place✅

[@Kevs442]

While I appreciate and like that you don't make recommendations, you could do a $/hp statement. That way guys like me know where to get the most bang for the buck. Thanks for all your videos! You are my favorite LS channel!

[@GIGABACHI]

Richard is a "YT Content Stallion" everyday pumping fresh content new content. 👌🏻😏🤣👍🏻

[@tiitsaul9036]

Excellently explained. Thanks.

[@rustysausage69]

Another thing an older engine with stamped rockers (gen 1-2 SBC, gen 1-2 SBF, gen 1-7 BBC, etc) benefits from with roller rockers is a more accurate ratio. The stamped steel rockers aren't wearproof and unlike LS rockers, they have 2 wear points, tip and the fulcrum because they're both sliding friction surfaces. I had a stock 100+K mile 327 impala a few years ago with 275/60 tires and it wouldn't do a burnout. I put roller rockers (same 1.5 ratio as stock mind you) on there and it was actually able to spin em.

[@jburr737]

Thank you for sharing your knowledge .

[@KreatorOfDeath1985]

It's like you are psychic. I just bought a 6.0 to rebuild from the bottom up. That day you released 6.0 head tests haha

[@victordahn2150]

Richard look into the GSR (Godbold Stiffness Rating) with the stock pushrods vs comp .080 Vs X-DA and a .600+ camshaft. I tested it this weekend but dont have back to back data. As always thanks for all you do one of my favorite KZbin channels!

[@lacboiatl]

Cool I had 1.9 rockers on my l67 3.8 series ii and it was great.

[@shaneshane1379]

Not the first engine I put roller rockers on , but the first stock engine was a 97 z28 LT1. I installed crane 1.6 gold self aligning rocker. The difference was noticable from 4 to 5500 rpm. The problem, factory rev limit was 5500. Durp Back then those were $300. I think they were worth it because horse power that doesn't consume more fuel is today's priority.

[@CampCatch]

I dont know how much youtube add revenue you bring in but I know its not enough for the amount of information you put out. THANK YOU!

[@crw3673]

I just asked you about a comparison of roller rockers yesterday! What the hell man. How did you get this video done so quickly?

[@Nicholas-im8bd]

He’s already done all these tests he makes videos from. He’s got 20++ years of dynoing combos

[@msgmonly]

Great test! Your awesome! Wish you would have tested a 1.8 ratio rocker also...

[@jordantrujillo293]

Thank you Richard again! Lots of info to learn even from modifications I didn't think of. When are we going to see your car and what all you have done to it on a video?

[@richardholdener1727]

My 02 Silverado is stock

[@mynameis63]

@@richardholdener1727 gonna pretend you never said that. :0 ;)

[@andyharman3022]

Pretty interesting test results. I wouldn't have expected just a .02 increase in rocker ratio to add 13 hp. Maybe most of the increase is due to total overall dynamic valve lift because of less deflection. I did expect the power to fall off at high rpm due to insufficient spring load. Once the higher load springs were installed, there was a slight loss in torque across the rev range, which I attribute to higher friction from the spring load. I've always been a fan of the GM investment cast steel roller fulcrum rocker arm. They are light and stiff, and because of the simple radius tip, put less mass at the valve. Aluminum rocker arms are basically forced to have the roller valve tip because Aluminum cannot stand up to the high contact stresses if they were machined with radius tips. The roller tip inevitably adds mass at the valve, and most of them are just a simple pin riding on the ID of the roller. If a full needle roller tip is desired, that adds even more mass.

[@johnramirez1699]

Great videos as always! Keep them coming... I am currently planning on keeping the factory rockers with a trunnion bearing upgrade and changing the cam and upgrading springs. If I use a 54-454-11 comp cams cam that has over .600 lift, will it require new length pushrods? 🤔

[@98integraGSR]

I wanna see this exact test ran, but with an aggressive cam in the motor and actually wringing it out. You skipped over some of the biggest reasons for going to roller rockers- the factory rocker nose geometry starts to "scrub" above about .586" lift, causing a big increase in friction and sideloading the valve stem, both coating power AND killing valve guides over time. Something like an MS4 from TSP would be a great example in a little 4.8, and would really illustrate an application where they fit nicely. I'd like to see the test with factory rockers, followed by a set of rollers bolted on "out of the box", and then again after taking the time setting proper wipe pattern. Something that would be GREAT to see after the last test mentioned above would be pushrods, and testing the extent to which pushrod deflection can hurt output. Test first with the ubiquitous 5/16", .080" wall pushrods that everyone uses, then test a set of Trend double-tapers... The MS4 has nice aggressive lobes and was designed around being a "high-effort" cam capable of taking advantage of stock cathedral heads; that grind coupled with the RPM that combo would want should make for a very interesting test! The only ancillary thing you might have to change would be to throw in a set of adequate lifters to eliminate that variable during testing, assuming they weren't already replaced while the heads were off. A set of CTSVR's, drop-in Morel or Johnson, or even genuine Delphi's or Eaton "LS7/LSA/LS-whatever people call 'em now" are cheap and up to the task, ran at .090-.110" preload. Please please pretty PWEEEAAAASE? I got a bone to pick regarding the subject. You could even make a series out of it- finding and extracting NA power out of a "junkyard" LS, one step at a time, including "free" stuff, tips and tricks, ect... You could also do stuff like: -test if an ATI dampener actually picks up -electric water pump (could even test if there's a difference between one with an idler pulley vs without) -crank scraper and windage tray -better factory intake/throttlebody -throttle body spacer- snake oil or free power? -removing casting flash from ports -gasket-matching intake and exhaust -Polishing the combustion chamber up using mag polish and a little wheel detail buffer- "old wives tale", or is there something to it? -Indexing spark plugs? -porting and radiusing oil pump housing/lapping side faces of gerotors, and "centering" during install- does less suction and discharge head and less friction make a difference? -comverting "PCV" over to exhaust venturies- does a lil' bit of vacuum in the bang box do anything noticeable? -Phenolic intske gaskets: Do they really do anything for IAT's, especially with a plastic intake? -all the other small things we've heard about over the years

[@GroovesAndLands]

Someday, it'd be cool to see gapless rings tested against traditional file-fit rings. Difficult test to perform, though.

[@jacksz28]

I would love to see a high rpm test with stock rockers, roller, and shaft (all the same ratio) I would think the higher rpm would emphasize the deflection.

[@FTsingos]

I had this very weird thing happen to me. When I decided to upgrade to trunnions, I noticed the wear pattern on one of the rockers was to the side instead of straight in the middle of the tip. I've had the engine since new and I have never had it apart before so it wasn't from some incorrect torquing down or reinstallation or whatever. Straight from the factory. I wonder if anyone else saw this. Anyways, while I wasn't thrilled about paying so much for roller rocker tips, the cool thing is that they came on a shaft that mounts two of them together. Stock ls rockers are individually. I'm guessing this will eliminate any tendency of rocker arms wanting to twist to the side or so. A little side benefit to the roller rocker tips I bought I guess.

[@thegdfp6447]

The crazy short pivot length on LS rockers, with the big lift, seems it would have a lot of sweep and thus guide/stem load and wear.

[@TurboJohnRacing]

That's a good jump of power. How much do the stock rocker arms deflect? Was the power increase from the deflection decrease or increase ratio? Or a combination of both? Solid test, thanks.

[@35057]

Well I was dismantling my stock LS6 rockers and found the tip wear was pushing the valves crooked. So for the service to true these and a trunnions upgrade, I mind as well get new rockers. Doing my winter rebuild heads cam and exhaust. 😎😎😎

[@johnjones928]

On 1st gen SBC a rocker upgrade is a must, I've seen too many broken stock rockers resulting from little more than a set of heads that received a valve job and had better springs installed. Not to forget the inconsistent pivot ratios of the stock pieces.

[@atf0013]

I had valve float with stock cam, stock springs on my LS2 with the Comp 1.8 rockers at 6000-6200rpms. Replace your springs at the same time guys save yourself the trouble later.

[@TaylorParks87]

correct, when you do a cam swap, do a spring swap!!!

[@Turbo_Todd]

@@TaylorParks87 apparently, even when only doing a rocker swap.

[@vengeanceizmine9878]

@@Turbo_Todd ESPECIALLY when doing a rocker swap.

[@vengeanceizmine9878]

@@TaylorParks87 Yes, IF you alter timing events beyond the capacity of the springs, which is mainly when you're swapping out a stock cam with stock springs. Not needed if they have already been replaced and can handle a bit more cam.

[@daveoneal5544]

@@Turbo_Todd putting a rocker with more mass, the spring cant support

[@LSXvoodoo]

Waiting for the 93 Pump Gas Big Bang. Keep them coming.

[@richardholdener1727]

there will never be a pump gas Big Bang-that's just detonation

[@allywilkeforsenate]

These vids are the best!

[@timothybayliss6680]

The biggest gains will come with a roller fulcrum. The biggest issue with ball pivot rockers is friction goes up proportionally to pushrod load. Big lift and bigger valve springs will burn a stock rockers and sometimes they will even push through. For stock cam guys, there isn't too much to be gained even with cheapo replacement rockers. A tiny bit of power way out at red line and maybe 2hp at 3000rpm. Nice test man, this is some good info.

[@paulf9459]

Nice Job

[@seanhayes1965]

Thanks Richard!

[@brandonpayne1207]

Ive heard to just upgraded the stock rocker trunnion, mainly the press on caps on each side that hold the bearings in place cause at high rpms the vibrations work the caps off and now you have little roller bearings inside your engine.

[@jjramirez5897]

Wow good stuff man! I’d love to see a video comparing different lifter preloads and how it effects power and stock vs short travel lifters.

[@richardholdener1727]

I did a pushrod length video-same thing

[@fasnuf]

Nice one Richard!

[@kevinbird6104]

You give guys like me hope thank you so much

[@manitoublack]

Toyota actually went away form a roller tip in their Nascar motors as they determined the reduction in weight and complecity of a slider vs roller asembly was better for thier application.

[@hotrodray6802]

5-600 miles life. Power is the 9nly consideration.

[@manitoublack]

@osp80 about 1-2 mm across the tip of the valve.

[@brianwilson3076]

Yes. Geometry say it has to.

[@baby-sharkgto4902]

@@manitoublack that is great information! But yeah their heads get rebuilt ever race. No roller tip on high lift cams puts more pressure on the valve guides and will possibly wear out valve guides sooner per every head manufacture.

[@darwinfridgeseals741]

Thanks brother, is there a chance you may be able to do an LS test on different positive displacement blowers, like the Magnuson??? Pretty Please with sugar on top.

[@daleanderson7629]

Is the power loss below 4600 @ 8:55 showing work to overcome inertia of heavy rocker vs friction improvements or is the port happier with less lift at lower revs. the stiffer valve springs @ 9:48 would act like even more mass for the cam to work against but it made higher torque at same Lift/RPM so results seem to show opposite outcomes. Thanks for the amazing info as always. video suggestion, have you done a test that shows results of switch to roller pivot / roller tip VS stock non roller in the same ratio. mass vs stability vs friction.

[@andrewwoitaszewski4961]

Hello Richard. Love your videos! Especially for us guys on a budget. I'm curious if you've ever done a 1.7 rocker vs 1.8 rocker on a stock 6.0l? Thanks! Andrew

[@richardholdener1727]

not on a 6.0L

[@joe-hp4nk]

I felt a big improvement on my bbc with comps 1.8 ratio stainless steel and 911-16 springs.

[@robertkeime4907]

Great video

[@totensiebush]

For a work van where swapping the cam is a total PITA, what're your thoughts on swapping rockers/springs (and a less awful intake) vs a very mild cam that'll still work well for towing etc?

[@bennyboyy7]

You gotta consider the deflection on top of the friction of the rockers. Just having friction or just deflection wouldn't be too bad but together they create a lot more resistance.

[@RAWRMotorsports]

Be Interesting to record oil temp on this same test with high spring pressures

[@davelewis2174]

I 'd love to see some spintron testing

[@Ravidshaw]

Love this dude Super Nerdy Gearhead Looks like he gets busted up from fighting, excellent.... I wonder how tall Rich is...wonder if he’s in my weight class! Sweet Engineering

[@brocksterification]

Excellent video however I wish you had used full roller rockers with standard ratio so we could see the reduction in losses.

[@LEGOCAMARO]

how about drysump help you rev it out longer keeping oil from foaming up

[@r.h.5052]

I recently went Comp roller on my LQ9 except I did the 1.8. Last year I did the Crane 210/218 on a 114 LSA.

[@r.h.5052]

@Tom Wetz little after 2,500. At 1,500 cruise it's a little choppy and a deep drone that wasn't there before. Running TBSS intake, TB, injectors, dynatech headers. Was tuned.

[@johnlowe4473]

Thank you for this video!!! I can now give a clearer response to my customer's. Maybe you don't understand this more coming from somebody else.

[@skymit5519]

Hi Richard. Can you please do a video on beehive valve springs versus normal valve springs. Please

[@janamo70]

I also installed roller rockers on my small block to make my valve guides live a little longer. The roller tip prevents the valves from being pushed side to side .

[@vengeanceizmine9878]

No, it doesn't. That would be a geometry issue. Roller tips just have less wear on valve tip.

[@TheJdizzle02]

Great video!!!

[@242bleek]

Would have liked to seen this done on an sbc where there is alot of gains to be had over the oem rockers. The LS has one of the best factory rockers already.

[@mattwillson8280]

It'd be fun to see a comparison on reverse hung pistons . Too bad I'm so far away , I'd bring a refreshed high mile 5.0 over for you run .

[@1cont]

great info and very well explained for a noob like me.

[@someguy2741]

Reminds me of a build where the guy removed the super trick LS9 rockers and replaced them with heavy ugly roller rockers. Rocker weight is super important. I doubt friction is much of an issue. Perhaps mocking up a head on the bench and try to measure the friction by using a load cell. I saw a video a long time ago where the guy measured the deflection difference between roller and stamped, especially with high spring pressures. If i remember right it was as much as 0.030 more lift.

[@MrStingray186]

great info roller only better with enough valve spring

[@Khumphries]

Hey Richard, can you tell us why an LS7 rocker won’t work on say an LS3/L92 Head? I thought maybe the exhaust rocker might fit since it’s not offset. like the LS1/6/2. Thanks. Love the videos!!!

[@jackkhol4251]

Richard I have a set of Johnson roller lifters and am planning on a roller cam upgrade for my 2001 LQ4 6 liter. Would you suggest re using the stock rockers with a spring upgrade or just get roller rockers?

[@ashersoderblom6499]

Perhaps you could answer here a further idea of running split ratios on the intake verse exhaust to enhance or exaggerate the cams duruation especially to improve cylinder evacuation on exhaust stroke to gain volumetric efficiency related to adiabatic function.

[@thetriode]

Video suggestion in a related subject:pushrod length and/or deflection

[@rhubarbpie2027]

If my understanding here is correct, while the valve is "floating" the camshaft is still turning, and the valve stem might get smacked by the cam's lobes while it is trying to re-seat.

[@BlindBatG34]

I seem to recall stock LS heads max out their flow numbers around .600” lift. I wonder how much power increase roller rockers would yield with a cam that already has .600+” of lift. I’m guessing you’d see minor gains from a couple extra degrees of duration but not much from the added lift.

[@ryanwilliams3369]

I put some comp 1.6s on my stock lg4 over the winter. it's a low mile stand alone with intake and exhaust. I wonder if it was a good idea? Or if it's just gonna waste gas. With the low 8.6:1 compression.

[@jefferywalpole6406]

I would say one of the best things of a roller tip under very high lift an high rpm it can help minimize valve guide wear.

[@richardholdener1727]

yes

[@pinchnloaf]

The factory rocker is also a progressive ratio. It starts around a 1.5 and finishes at a 1.7

[@benkrom2737]

Richard, doesn't the resistance simulate heavier rockers and cancel each other out ?

[@3800TURBO]

Some roller rockers are so heavy over the nose you run into valve float where before you didn't with the stock rocker. Edit: I shoulf have watched the video first lol. Richard you're the first person to honestly point this out. Most guys are on the sales side of things and will never mention the weight. Top marks! Have you done a Solid roller cam vs Hydraulic test with the LS? The hydraulic are pretty good these days so the test would have to be two very large cams with close valve events, one solid one Hydraulic etc. Done this before? I know someone with a 2500hp LS and he says the power isnt possible with a hydraulic roller.

[@ldnwholesale8552]

A roller rocker is a roller pivot and roller tip. Having used rollers for near 50 years. The main reason is a roller tip that gives true duration and lift. And uses less power to do so. And you can use a LOT less oil up top. I find 20 -30 thou more lift with standard ratio. More rocker ratio however loads up lifters and push rods exponentially. As well as rocker studs and or bosses.

[@dwarfgrumpy]

Can we get a comparison of different rocker ratios?

[@randallslocum5252]

3 to 5 hp gang may or may not be cost-effective for the price but they damn do look cool.. but I’m here still waiting to see the 4.7 L dodge one day I will see if it!! He will or other people will start asking and he well do it!!!!

[@broz1969]

Richard, I always like your stuff. I gain knowledge everytime.. Now, please go to the other side on this issue. If you use the recommended spring, retainer and lock for a given cam, and then I "over spring it" what does the curve look like? I got to know.... please show us a engines response with recommendations springs, the upgrade springs... my theory, over spring rate makes up for underscoring rate everytime..

[@richardholdener1727]

MORE SPRING IS BETTER, LESS IS BAD

[@cmdr_talikarni]

Then the other side of the question, is it worth a stage 1 cam+spring only upgrade?

[@EricErnst]

On an sbc, I've seen magazine articles say 1.6 roller rockers are worth 24hp over stock stamped steel 1.5s. I like running them in an sbc regardless, I like the lower friction. Ls, I've heard the stockers are good. For 13hp, I'd rather upgrade the springs and run rollers.

[@kellybaye9794]

My oil temp dropped 15° on sbc... less friction

[@josephanders6052]

Engine masters did a baunch of different rockers on sbc.

[@vengeanceizmine9878]

Gains are solely based on if the wngine needs the added valve events the bigger ratio offers. However, that is when you compare 2 different rockers of the same quality. Factory stamped steel 1.5 rockers, in all actuality, measure anywhere fro. 1.25 to 1.4. So even swapping to a newer rocker at same 1.5 ratio, would net a big difference. Magazine tests like that can be misleading. Always compare apples to other apples...

[@johnpublic168]

What is the increase or decrease in valve train weight with roller rocker.. What about the push rod friction.

[@abaracskai]

Can you get some Higgins Race heads to test?