The 1958 Pattern Pack and Why it is a Terrible Design

A discussion of the British 1958 Pattern pack and it's major failings.
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[@CharlesPepper]

Tabbing with that thing was agony. Going prone with it was a joke. Packing it was a b*stard. Got bergans at battalion thankfully.

[@66kbm]

I remember BAOR well in the mid 1980's and trying to pack useless gear into that thing as required by Supreme Allied Command Europe, SACEUR, in the event that the Russians/NVA invaded and the thing was pre-packed and ready to go instantly, Active Edge. I remember sitting on mates packs so we could get the fastening straps to...fasten. Rarely did the strap pass beyond the metal tip in the buckle, thats how full of useless crap these things were loaded with. Yes, i am about to hear countless...We binned them for bergans etc...Unfortunately there were many thousands of troops in BAOR that could not or were not allowed to swap them out.

[@mickhall88]

Love the way it was called a 'large pack', yet you couldn't fit anything in it. Fondly remember having your face pushed into the mud when lying prone, with the sleeping bag on top pressing into the back of your helmet. The first item of private purchase kit after basic was a decent bergen (A DPM Arktis one if I remember correctly)

[@RiflemanMoore]

To be fair 'large pack' is a slang term, I believe carried over from the preceding 1937 Pattern, it is officially referred to as 'field pack'. I can definitely understand it being a priority to replace as soon as you could!

[@davidbrennan660]

I’m surprised Simon is bigging up this piece of kit so much .....🤪

[@njmaxton4530]

Agreed. Sleeping bag on top, assume the prone position with your face in the mud.

[@timparker5953]

I had to use these blessed things in the field. Dumped of course in the section wardrobe once in a harbour. Once the worn out see through paper thin reissue sleeping bag was added to the top, taking up a fire position with the turtle helmet was virtually impossible. We never used the side buckles, the idea being that it could be swung over the head to quickly dump it if the need arose. Consequently the weight would shift constantly from side to side. The crap we were required to fit in them was nobody’s business and not a shred of it ever came out of the polythene bags it had been rammed into.

[@davidroutley7619]

It still baffles me how I managed to fit all the items required to be carried on the kit list into these bloody awful things. About half way through our training (87-88) we were allowed to use private purchase Bergen’s, but that was a lottery depending on how rich you and your parents were. It was all private purchase in my corps up until issue of PLCE mid nineties.

[@jjddgrw]

This was a complete and utter POS. I’ve been waiting 46 years to vent my spleen about the idiots who designed this and how utterly useless it was. Unbelievable. Thanks for finally exposing this and allowing me to get this off my chest.

[@rexbarron4873]

Well to be fair it was introduced when the army was occupied with what was happening in the far east. As a young Kiwi soldier landing in Malaya going straight from the '36 pack to '58 was a good thing. A bit of plywood taped in the back, extend the straps with a rivet or two and no need to carry sleeping kit. We could adjust the height on the back by taping field dressings onto the shoulder straps. No complaints actually.

[@Chiller01]

Interesting perspective.

[@rorybrown9750]

I was a Guardsman in the late 1970's and I had the misfortune to have to use this POS. I don't know who designed it but it certainly wasn't a serving soldier. Having said that, I suppose it wasn't any worse than the rest of the crap equipment we were issued with. No wet-proof clothing except a bloody poncho, woolen gloves that got wet and froze your fingers in the winter, DMS boots that soaked up water and crippled you for six weeks after issue for example. As soon as I got away from a BS rifle company and into the Recce/COP platoon I got myself off to Silvermans on the Mile End Road and bought a Bergen, a decent DP pattern wet proof jacket and trousers, ski gloves and Gore-tex boots. Hopefully things are a bit better now.

[@jamesbarnett120]

remember Silverman's, sadly in the 1970's and 80's this was where a lot of or money went on replacing some of the rubbish issue kit. Always supprised me how better some of the older kit was as well. only thing good about 58 was the water bottle and sleeping bag.

[@dewiowen4538]

Crap with a Capital C, however an old Cpl of mine wouldn't use a Bergen only his large pack his logic was if you had a bigger bag you inevitably fill it with useless crap.

[@dulls8475]

We had a full screw who used it all the time so he could avoid carrying radio battery, spare ammo etc. I could see his logic. He had the issue kit and would watch us with a grin on his face as all the stuff got distributed to the Bergen boys.

[@keithorbell8946]

Considering the rest of the ‘58 pattern was so good for its time (late’50’s into the ‘60’s) it’s very strange how the large pack was so rubbish!

[@philiprufus4427]

Rubbish ? The whole thing looks a b- - - - - nightmare, whosoever foisted that on the lads should have been fitted with a caliper, - on his b - - - - - head..

[@peepresc8002]

Great video, brought back memories to 1983 as a 16yr old junior soldier being issued this kit, the large pack was useless, always had to put a bin bag inside to keep your kit dry. As soon as i went to my battalion i bought a Bergaus rock Bergan.

[@flatmoon6359]

Usual MOD procurement, nobody tested it in cold weather, carrying it for 20+ miles,and living out of it for weeks.We used to rub in wax into the cloth,and heat it with hot air gun,to try and waterproof it.Other units SOP was Bergen.

[@davidsayer3325]

Thanks Simon for a spot on video review on the terrible 58 pack. Apart from basic training in 85 I never used the pack again. One of the first private purchases I made after training was to buy a Berghaus Roc Bergen which I still own today . It served me very well from BAOR to Northern Ireland, Canada and Operation Granby (Desert Shield),

[@samibures9152]

Issued in training in ‘86. A mechanism of torture but it ensured you learned important personal field admin quickly.

[@johnnunn8688]

I was instructed that, when coming under effective enemy fire, dashdowncrawl, then unclip the lower clips, throw the pack forward over your head, (to provide some cover) then unhook from the d-rings, leaving you pack free 🤷‍♂️.

[@chriserskine585]

I bought a second hand Cyclops Roc after basic training and still have it 33yrs later, time flies, good memories

[@carrisasteveinnes1596]

They were still issuing this kit in Australia as late as 1985. SLR and 1958 pattern webbing. Good times. My well spent teens and early adult years.

[@paulthompson3190]

I remember hooking the pack onto the D rings and swinging it over my head. That was fine until I was carrying an ammo box one day which smashed into my back because I'd not packed it carefully.

[@Tonad1978]

Arrived at Queens DIV depot for basic in 1994 and remember looking at the how to wear photographs on the walls of the accommodation block; guys from the previous training platoon geared up in all the various kit: PT, CEMO/CEFO, 2'S, barrack dress etc. They were using 58 and I had been expecting to receive the same. I had used it as a cadet and remember thinking how faaarkin nails soldiers must be to train in and use it for real as it was uncomfortable and looked prehistoric compared to the ALICE stuff we saw in Platoon/FMJ etc. Imagine my delight when returning from initial kit issue to find a full set of gleaming OD PLCE. The non-infantry folks in training from RE/RSigs looked at us with pure hate.....we felt like kings. That was until it was all filled up and we realised how much it all weighed. A tip from the training screw was to stuff your maggot into the bergen and use the compression sack for spare clothes as the "bouncing bomb" had the size to weight ratio of a neuton star when compressed. I absolutely adored my PLCE bergen, not perfect but at least not an out and out torture device. PTI still did every TAB in a para bergen though.....because Staff B###e really was NAILS!

[@24934637]

I was issued the '58 pattern webbing when I joined the Royal Artillery in 1995. The worst aspects of it are: It's NOT designed for the modern weaponry or equipment that are being carried. It's very heavy when wet as it absorbs any water. It's 'shrink to fit'....The water bottle won't come out of the pouch IF it's been wet! Plus it's uncomfortable! I still quite liked it. Better than the 37 pattern that I never used!

[@michaelstephanides1854]

With a sleeping bag strapped on the top it was very difficult (almost impossible) to aim and fire a rifle in the prone position while wearing a helmet. The sleeping bag would be waterproofed with a shiny black bin liner which was a personal purchase Great fun. On initial issue we were unaware of how subpar it was until we used it, then it came as somewhat of a shock and a joke. We all dreamt of SAS/Para or RM Berghaus Bergans. Now looking back strangely , I remember it with fondness.

[@richthompson1234]

Used this in training (1977) and for a couple years after until the GS/SAS Bergen was issued, along with the rest of the '58 pattern webbing! We used to use it independently of the '58 pattern when on sick parade or othe non-military activities! We used to fasten the 'bottom clips' to the 'top hooks' thereby creating straps and carried it on the back as per a regular rucksack. The clips were very tight though and a bugger to unfasten! One thing I forgot to mention was that in 1979 when we were deployed to Cyprus there was a local Cypriot tailor who sold cotton, DPM, camouflage, elasticated large pack covers for a few quid. It served me until we deployed to BAOR when a waterproof version was issued! Are you aware of the various locally produced/issued large pack and rucksack covers?

[@AdventureswithTrains]

My Grandfather was issued the infamous 58 pattern webbing, he had nothing positive to say about it. Even then, MOD penny pitching meant that corners had been cut with pouches on the webbing being just a few mm too narrow. He never bothered with the big pack as he was carrying his platoons radio. He adjusted his kit so it could all be carried in his webbing pouches, anything he couldnt carry, he felt he didnt need and left it on the wagons.

[@badgertheskinnycow]

1958 Pattern Webbing was almost certainly the most expensive PLCE issued to any army in the world at the time it was introduced. There was no 'MOD penny pitching' with this kit.

[@Roger_Stenning]

A LOT of us replaced those damn things with the Beghaus Cyclops, and similar. Expensive, but WELL worth the money.

[@PatrickKniesler]

Did you lower the web belt to use the kidney belt on the bergen, or use both, or skip the kidney belt?

[@rule3036]

Kidney pouches were supposed to replace the old sidepack and removable for fighting from vehicles, put back on for non mechanised roles.

[@nickmiller21]

Remember being issued this in basic training. Binned this and bought Bergen from shop in Catterick soon as I had the readies.

[@Quaker521]

One of the first things I bought after training was a Berghaus Vulcan bergan. Well worth the money and sooo much better than having to carry a '58 large pack. Still had to have one packed to show for active edge and inspections. Fortunately I had spare kit so it remained packed but never used.

[@Limabelasun]

3 weeks in a welsh summer living out of 58. 1987 it never dried. went out and got a millets Burghus cyclops roc DPM 80 ltr burgan with two 10 ltr rocket pouches 80 notes back then.. forerunner of the plce burgan. later for short excursions I had a warrior pack with all round double zip. roll mat inside, green maggot and kit shoved in side that.

[@chriserskine585]

Trying to get your locker layout in a 58 large pack for exercise in basic was a nightmare 😁

[@genwoolfe]

Cold (Arctic) fingers cannot fasten or undo those straps; and ALL 58 pattern webbing would shrink when wet. The whole setup was useless and caused injuries (shoulders, back and hips) simply by prolonged use of it.

[@rippersix293]

I have a 58 pattern bag that I mounted onto a Vietnam era U.S. issue P68 rucksack frame. I use it as a “portable first aid station” loaded with enough Med equipment for a large group.

[@badgertheskinnycow]

Sounds truly awful. Combat medicine has improved greatly in the last 20 years or so and there are now some well-designed medical packs available. These can often be purchased as surplus at a fraction of the original cost and would make much more suitable alternatives.

[@rippersix293]

@@badgertheskinnycow not when I can buy the contents of those medical bags wholesale, organize them by category into small packs/rolls in my 58 bag to suit my group’s needs and not pay for the overpriced “Gucci Gear” bag and the marked up price of it’s contents.

[@badgertheskinnycow]

@@rippersix293 I guess if it works for you then that's good news buddy.

[@Andy-walkaboutnutty]

The person that designed the large pack would of been shot by every British soldier in the 1980s, it was a bloody disgrace, before joining up I used a berghaus cyclops rock DPM, hiking the hills and mountains, after was that thing and I had no choice. I was definitely sold a lie in that recruiting office. It shrunk when wet, you had to violently talk to it when trying to get just the metal end of the strap to go through just to fasten it,. There is no way it was tested by the crap at the top before bringing it into survice. They must of been the stupidest people on the planet in the1950s to bring this into survice.

[@johnsharp6618]

Used these in basic, and between that pack and the webbing we could carry everything bar no 2 dress and Barack dress which weren't required. But everything else issued for in the field or on the kit list fit in or on it. Steel helmet dms boots and putties and an slr , happy days .

[@johnnydiamondsmusic1673]

Only ever used it in Basic. Everyone bought their own Bergan. The rest of the webbing wasn’t too bad and again a lot of us modified it to fit better and custom pouches etc.

[@AnOldYoungPerson]

The 58 pack always reminds me of the design, that that British army used during the napoleon era, as that was just a blackened leather cover for the man's, kit and some leather straps/belts to wear on the chest. But they aren't molded or shaped to be proper straps to wear on the body. But granted, it's leather it must be a bugger when it start to dig in to the body! Rob (BritishMuzzleLoaders) covered it in his kit series.

[@robmcbride1664]

Good to hear analysis of the kit. More of this please.

[@DaveDave65]

Good & accurate review. It was a dreadful bit of kit & only ever really used it when there was no option due to courses kit list, crappy SOP's or an over-obstinate Sgt Maj. Any other time, I woud do my utmost to source a GS Bergen (uncomfortable but practical & easy to doff) or bought my own Berghaus. At the time, even Sgt Maj's realised how bad the kit was so they let us get away with this for obvious reasons. I know many weren't so lucky & were stuck with them though, so I felt for them. Whenever I see those old 70's & 80's promotional pictures showing "Standard Soldier's Loadout", how on earth did we manage to get as much as we did into our 58 Patt CEFO & Large Pack? We must have had shares in black bin liners back in the day. Webbing was largely fine but the Large Pack, a nightmare. Thank God they're gone & modern kit seems significantly improved.

[@tomsoki5738]

I'd be interested to see you do a video on the DPM 'Assault Vest' or it's proper name 'Waistcoat, mans, general purpose ops' as it was used quite a lot by light infantry operating from land rovers in the Gulf wars and was used extensively by the SAS in the Gulf. A lesser known but very widely issued piece of kit, and quite good in my opinion.

[@medic7698]

We used to use them in the medics for DZ covers.

[@tomsoki5738]

@@medic7698 What is a DZ cover?

[@medic7698]

@@tomsoki5738 we used to do med cover for the paras when they were doing training jumps so we were deployed to the drop zone.

[@tomsoki5738]

@@medic7698 oh I see, thanks

[@Roger_Stenning]

We had DPM Chest webbing (the so called "Chinese pouches") in the PRI shop, and the razzman only authorised them for vehicle drivers. Go figure! 🤣

[@Frogboxer]

It was deliberately designed to be small so as to limit what a soldier could carry....ie not be overloaded. All large packs are designed for marching order between base areas or LUPs...not for fighting...so not sure why that premise is a bad one for this pack. It did work...could carry all your winter kit...NBC [suit, gloves and boots] went into a poncho roll and sleeping bag and mat on the outside. Main problem was of course it had no separate shoulder-strap system or quick release. Obviously much better options available but it wasn't as bad as people say....perhaps they should have issued the old WW2 mountain ruck...carries 70lb comfortably....off the shelf design, tried and tested.....and allows air to back for jungle esp....the GS pack and SAS/Para bergen were presumably an attempt to improve on that....but weren't as comfortable. A lot used to use the Karrimor Jaguar....simple bucket with side pouches and no back padding...but had its own straps.

[@paddy864]

Yes, you're right of course, and I remember being told that was designed for easy stowage in the internal cart-bays of the FV432. The problem with that course is that there were only 13 mechanised Infantry battalions in the Army, out of 55! It truly was the most badly designed and effectively useless piece of kit I ever saw during my 24years service. I was actually appalled by it on the day I drew my first one, I could tell even then that it was a crock of shit.

[@badgertheskinnycow]

@@paddy864 nearly all non-mechanised British infantry battalions had B vehicle transport. That is how the pack was primarily intended to be transported. The use as CEMO was very much intended as a non-tactical expedient when field movement required it - in rare circumstances.

[@njmaxton4530]

Great little video. Keep them coming. Gives oldies a chance to chunter again.

[@PatrickKniesler]

I am thoroughly enjoying the rants

[@hughsmith9401]

our bum role had the NBC suit rolled up in side as well as poncho crap kit GOOD WEE CHANNEL

[@philipcave4303]

Totally agree with you, the actual webbing I liked, but the back pack was trash, not fit for purpose.

[@cujimmy1366]

Every time I see one it reminds me of a motor bike pannier bags.

[@paladinmaid2334]

Got one of these when I got my full Pattern 58 set of webbing for a Falklands impression, and yeah, these are awful. Cannot imagine having to use one in the field.

[@KTM-xz9qj]

Basic training ... Here's a pack the size of a shoe box. Here a list of kit including your sleeping bag that you have to get into it. Even more fun with a digging in shovel stuck to it and trying to get in the prone position.

[@badgertheskinnycow]

Sleeping bag fitted outside the pack and the pack was designed for that.

[@berendaleroorda6337]

Still looks better than the backpack (pukkel) that was issues to me in 86

[@neilk943]

Arghhh this video has given me a horrible flashback - this thing made my basic training an absolute nightmare! Worst bit of kit the British Army ever issued.

[@Grayman58]

Hi mate it would be interesting to see some S A S kit I know the reg have a mixed bag of gear but in general the belt kit would be interesting

[@snowflakemelter1172]

A common practice was to carry your doss bags in a bin liner strapped to the top.

[@IntersexGamer]

Couldnt they just rig some straps for it and add some extras to make up for it? I admit I dont know much at all about military rules but ive got quite a few packs ive just had to rig straps for and add some capacity where I could not with something like the molle system but really rigging up ways to add capacity where I could. I dont understand why they couldnt do the same

[@Retired-Tom]

We binned it and used the 44 patt small pack in its place, still useless but better

[@Iolis]

The two straps at the top of the large pack were designed to hold the sleeping blankets. Sleepingt bags were not issue until many years later. Indeed you would be hard pushed to secure a 'Green Maggot' to the pack without two short extension straps. The loop above the entrenching tool holder is not a carrying handle. It is designed for the front lip of the steel helmet to slide beneath since without it, the helmet will slide sideways and out of the cross straps. The Cross straps pass below the back of the helmet push it upwards against the loop. Finally, the complete issues is not 'Combat Equipment Fighting Order'. It is 'Complete Equipment Fighting Order' (CEFO).

[@badgertheskinnycow]

you are wrong - the correct acronym is Combat Equipment Fighting/Marching Order as indicated in numerous issue Army pamphlets and documents of the era. Even common sense should suggest the incorrectness of having two forms of equipment, of different components, both termed 'Complete'.

[@Iolis]

@@badgertheskinnycow To which pamphlets do you refer? I refer to Dress Regulations. It was an era in which I served for over two decades in various units. There is nothing inconsisent with CEFO AND CEMO and the term 'complete' since that is the designation attached to them.

[@badgertheskinnycow]

​@@Iolis I was an RP in the 1980s so I am quite familiar with Dress Regs. Can you please confirm the version, page and paragraph you refer to? The official MOD guide to acronyms and abbreviations - uses 'Combat' in both CEFO & CEMO.

[@Rokaize]

I’d like to see you review more poorly designed pieces of gear. You being so critical of it is entertaining

[@chrissheppard5068]

I went through Royal marine training in 74 75. I now cannot comprehend how we all carried so much in this garbage (ignorance is bliss.) The sleeping bag had to be strapped to the top in a black bin liner. Putting the pack on could result in injury to those behind you as the pick or shovel could batter that person should you or they get careless and be closely behind you. This item of equipment was designed so it could fit in the rack of an APC not for load carrying. We never used APCs but our feet. In a unit personal purchase Bergan's were the order of the day along with personalising the webbing. The yoke belt water bottle pouch and ammo pouches were usable but the rear pouches and the cape carrier were awful. 44 pattern water bottle pouches were considered Gucci kit and two or three of these to replace the rear pouches made you the dogs bollocks way back then. The poncho was your bivi so binned into your bergan ready to go for that purpose, basically we had no water proofs but I found you got wet regardless so suck it up and learn to be wet and cold.

[@chrissheppard5068]

I should add the icing on the cake was it made you look a complete cnut when worn as did that terrible steel helmet....that got well binned.

[@GavTatu]

oh dear..... oh dear. it would just about fit a GS sleeping bag ! i used to roll my doss bag up really tight, and instead of packing it in the hood, i'd wrap a bungee round it, really reduced the volume. left me with a tiny bit more space. edit: faff.... great military term.

[@mnguy98]

"In the sixth decade, the Army Ordnance Research Group in collaboration with the Devil himself summoned the Pattern 58 Large Pack from the underworld, and all who saw it said: "The Army seems to have taken leave of their senses."" -Varusteleka describing British pack development

[@davehopkin9502]

I struggle to decide which was the worst bit of kit issued, the despised "large pack" or the "DPM crisp packet waterproofs"...... watching the video I am inclined to go with the large pack, as i cant think of a single redeeming feature of it..... the swinging the bloody thing over your head was a design feature that should have lead to the public execution of its inventor... years later I can still get angry at the bloody thing!!!!

[@Yandarval]

Boots, D.M.S. by far. Designed. Muppets. Surely or Doesn't. Matter. Soldier or Department (of). Military. Sadism. At least the Large pack and Walker's waterproofs, sort of did their job.

[@andrewhammond1949]

Another good one. Thank you.

[@thegeordiestory]

Used to set the straps with duct tape. Most uncomfortable crap ever made. Was in ACF In 73 and WW2 stuff was better

[@jsog6]

But wait! The blokes said build me a 58’ pattern backpack, but the DPM can only afford 12 quin per pack

[@badgertheskinnycow]

£12 in 1955 is equivalent to £249.31 today - with inflation.

[@rule3036]

CEMO ; that stupid useless pack and a steel helmet with a spike in the middle to brain you if anyone hit you on the head with it. Whoever approved them for service use was a bloody joker.....or cretin. These large packs make good motorcycle panniers with a bit of plywood to stiffen the back up though.

[@martinbrown4479]

Thankfully my unit issued Bergans and we did not use this rubbish, though we did use 58 pattern belt equipment

[@Grayman58]

Para?

[@martinbrown4479]

@@Grayman58 attached arms (Signals)

[@pierevojzola9737]

@@Grayman58 Hi Steve, did you really have to ask? You must have known! Thanks for the laugh. Thank God we could use our own gear. You should have seen some of the useless gear I got issued when I joined RNZIR, there was even BD (44 pattern) that stank of the old WW2 smell and had a little pocket on the right. I at least had all my ex Para issued 58 equipment plus burgen etc and No. 2 dress to wear. Every army I have been with has had some useless gear, at least the Kiwi’s were the best scroungers I ever came across. Cheers mate. Harera

[@pierevojzola9737]

@@martinbrown4479 Just as well it was the Sigs doing their dots and dashes. The thought that it could have been amputees was a shocking thought!

[@georgeatkinson759]

Ex RA surveyor...1980s....only ever put it in the back of the landrover, not much good...

[@relaxedhorsebookreading286]

Isn’t the carrying handle actually for the pickaxe?

[@RiflemanMoore]

The pickaxe head is carried in the cape carrier (poncho roll).

[@relaxedhorsebookreading286]

@@RiflemanMoore That is true but I heard the carry handle on the pack is also for such a function for the lightweight pick

[@norman6595]

God how I hated this - and all the pointless shit we had to pack in it!

[@outsideedgebushcraft3017]

Horrible ruddy thing, I don't remember using it for any thing ever. Or those stupid kidney pouches that came open as soon as you started running, scattering their contents. I don't know who designed that pattern but it certainly wasn't an infantry soldier

[@medic7698]

Horrible piece of kit. Had to use in my first two units. Bought a Berghaus Crusader in 1984. Still got it.

[@SafetyProMalta]

Teeth arms always swapped them out when first bergans came out. Useless except as a pillow.

[@schreckpmc]

97

[@steveforster9764]

Oh the joys of trying to fit everything in that COs SOP. demand

[@Dave-cw9ie]

An absolute howling bit of kit you were better off packing your kit in a couple of carrier bags .one it would be waterproof and you would get it all in 😂😂

[@davidbrennan660]

Hail Larry Large pack, you nasty thing.. Designed by someone who never had to use the darn thing.

[@badgertheskinnycow]

It was designed by Army Load Carriage design committee - most of whom were either military or ex-military and then subjected to the most extensive trials programme of any newly introduced British Army equipment.

[@473specop]

No one ever said, 'I hope we can wear our large packs on this exercise!' I feel bad about ticking the Like button for this useless piece of ---- [fill in the blanks]

[@tombrydson781]

Yes rubbish kit