Why Don't We Have More Double-Decker Buses?

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[@andrewwoodgate3769]

In places with double-deckers, the public learns how to use them effectively; as you say, riders start moving towards the exit before their stop, thus minimising dwell times. However, using London as an example, I think by far the bigger impact on dwell times has been the introduction of contactless payment.

[@davidty2006]

Hmmm. On the Decently new NB4L Routemasters they got stairs up front and at back with contactless payment on all 3 doors. And other busses have been retrofitted to also have contactless on their front and middle doors.

[@Sean-D78]

@@davidty2006 no they got rid of the contactless payments from the middle and rear doors of the NB4L because of fare evasion and no other buses have had it retrofitted.

[@AlRoderick]

You can solve that problem by making public transit free at the point of use.

[@chungonion]

@@AlRoderick Or the other way round is to have a proof-of-payment system, where fare collections are done off the bus

[@Zveebo]

Contactless is a huge benefit. Though it does mean that American tourists become a huge pain with their antiquated banking functionality - can delay the bus quite significantly each time.

[@Fan652w]

Sweden (which I often visit) tried double-decks in Stockholm from 1967 to 1974. They failed because short distance passengers would not go upstairs. However, the Swedes in the last 20 years have discovered that double-decks are excellent for longer distance express bus routes. Eg Stockholm to Norrtalje, Gothenburg to Borås, Malmö to Kristianstad and Uppsala to Västerås. In the north they work the marathon Umeå-Luleå-Haparanda route.

[@FindecanorNotGmail]

I hate those. Crowded entrance/exit when they have to serve two exits. Low ceiling. Crarmped and dark inside. Wobbly in curves/ramps because of high centre of gravity. I have sometimes taken a longer route with "regular" busses just to avoid having to take a double-decker.

[@wai-shinglam4447]

Does Sweden use Volvo Double Deckers like those in UK?

[@Fan652w]

@@wai-shinglam4447 The Swedish DDs are built by either Volvo or Scania. Usually 14-15 meters long. Two doors and two staircases.

[@pqrstsma2011]

i agree

[@michaeloreilly657]

Double Deckers take up a lot less road space per passenger, particularly useful in crowded city centres.

[@gravemind6536]

Its the only way to transport significant numbers of people on routes that have tight sections that longer single deckers are simply incapable of dealing with also. I have driven some through tight little villages where a single decker would be borderline impossible to use and take 10 people less and its a busy route too so every bit of capacity matters.

[@MrMarinus18]

The problem though is that if you have very high ridership, high population density and extremely high land value it's often far better to build a tram or metro instead. Double deckers are less a double bus and more so a intercity bus and a city bus combined. The intercity travelers can sit on the upper level as they won't get off for at least half an hour, likely more while the city travelers sit on the lower level as they get off pretty soon. This means that in the top deck you can add seats with elbow rests. They normally don't have these in busses cause they slow movement but they could add it to the upper level. Maybe they could put 2 scanners in the bus. One for the lower level and one for the higher level that costs slightly more. If you only have to travel around 15 minutes or so you likely are fine sitting in a hard basic seat to save a few cents. But if you have to travel for over 40 minutes you could pay more for a better seat.

[@charthepirate]

My hometown of Davis CA had a student run bus system. They used to buy the old busses from London. They don’t do it as much now but they keep a few that the engineering school converted them to natural gas or biodiesel. Kind of became a symbol of the system and was beloved. Actually informal or student run transit like UNITRANS might be a good video idea.

[@nmpls]

Unitrans also has 2 modern double deckers too. Worth noting that Unitrans often has a conductor that helps people with whether they should go up to the top of the bus.

[@Twittler1]

They’re still there. It’s bizarre seeing really old (70-90 year old) AEC Regents running around with modern 2 stroke diesel or 4 stroke LNG engines, and automatic transmissions. And power steering and air brakes. Unitrans spent/spends a lot of money on keeping these old girls running.

[@tylergerlach1999]

I’d love to see a video on Unitrans specifically. I graduated from Davis this year and being able to bike around campus easily and the Unitrans system definitely kickstarted my interest in public transportation. I remember being totally in awe seeing those double decker buses the first time I visited the school, and I’m sure plenty of other students are introduced to public transportation in that way too.

[@middletransport]

UniTrans has a few modern double decker buses now these days in addition to the old London ones

[@charthepirate]

@@tylergerlach1999 growing up in Davis, riding my bike everywhere I did not realize how good I had it! So much freedom as a kid compared to the backseat generation.

[@katbryce]

The thing is, in London, it is the high frequency routes that have double decker buses, and the low frequency routes, the ones where the route number begins with a letter, that have single decker buses. It is the same idea in most parts of the UK, except that the really low frequency routes will often be mini-buses. If you have lots of people on a route, the cheapest and easiest way to increase capacity is to swap out the single decker for a double decker. You don't need to employ any more drivers. The vehicle costs a bit more and uses a bit more fuel, but still less than two single deckers. Alexander Dennis is the biggest supplier of buses in the UK as well. They used to be owned by the same person who owns Stagecoach, the largest bus operator in the country. The Boris Buses you showed in the video are made by Wright Omnibus, the other large bus manufacturer in the country, but they are being phased out in favour of electric buses from Alexander Dennis.

[@davidty2006]

Frequency doesn't matter with bus type sometimes. my town has every 10 minute frequency yet zero double deckers. yet the every 30 minute intercity busses do get the odd double decker now i say odd since theres a chance it's a DD or a Single decker.

[@rhodrage]

Where I live they just chuck buses on whatever route and hope for the best. Even the ones liveried for other routes.

[@haltendehand1]

@@davidty2006 Bear in mind that in London a bus with a 10-minute frequency IS a low frequency route... the most frequent routes run every 3-4 minutes

[@toranshaw4029]

That's not always the case, with lettered routes, as the E2, E3 and E8 routes in Ealing are double deckers... though they are quite a frequent services!

[@katbryce]

@@haltendehand1 In Central London, yes, but then you have the likes of the U10 bus (Uxbridge to Ruislip) which is every 90 minutes.

[@jonathanma2741]

Talking about buses in Hong Kong, i was surprised to find that the "point to point" model of bus service isn't common around the world. In Hong Kong, many buses has 5-10 stops (or less) in a residential neighborhood, then half an hour on motorway, and 10-20 stops in downtown, with around 5min frequency in the morning peak. Perfect examples are like 307, 960, 681(Used to be every 2 min). Many other popular bus routes are also following this principle such as 58x, 87d, 74x, 270a, 788. That makes travelling on buses compeatable with rail transport.

[@ulysseslee9541]

also the 8p, 78*, 72* series at the Island side

[@SKAOG21]

That seems similar to what Singapore does (a few stops in the neighbourhood, journey on the expressway, then stops at the Central Business District) I have forgotten the service numbers since I don't live in Singapore anymore, but feel free to contribute some bus service numbers!

[@jonathanma2741]

@@SKAOG21 havent been to Singapore for 10+ years, but i heard buses in Singapore mainly serve short distance, connecting residential neighborhood to the nearest MRT station

[@TheShortStory]

Part of the reason for that is Hong Kong’s construction, with its “new towns”. When there’s not much in between, the busses serve a long haul function. There, it really neatly complements rail service because busses can take people closer to their homes. But there are plenty of routes in dense and spread-out Kowloon that work like regular busses in any other city.

[@gohsoonheng9598]

There are pt to pt service in Singapore, serving few stops in one area before a long smooth journey nonstop till final destination area. But such services are few.

[@ryanscott6578]

This is a video topic that's always interested me. Here in Scotland they're everywhere too. I was surprised to find out they're uncommon outside of the UK

[@katbryce]

The only countries where you will find double deckers in regular use in city routes are UK, Ireland, Hong Kong, and Singapore. The UK influence is strong in all those places.

[@jamescoulson7729]

They are also common in cities like Victoria Canada, but not as much in other major Canadian cities

[@Zveebo]

The ones in Edinburgh are HUGE and very fancy - definitely better than the London ones. Though both have good services overall. It’s always amusing that the UK has no bi-level trains, but double decker buses all over the place.

[@davidty2006]

@@Zveebo Yeah our trains were never meant to be Bi level. but the streets and roads with trams and busses were double decker since they were mainstream.

[@offichannelnurnberg5894]

But why don't you have double-decker trains then?

[@chungonion]

I live in Hong Kong, maybe I would supplement some more information about the double decker buses 1. In Hong Kong, roads are mostly constructed with the clearance of no less than 4.3m on all tunnels or overpasses, so that double decker could pass through. 2. Double decker buses required to pass the tilt test (around 30 degress), and during the test it has to simulate the situation of full load on the upper deck, hence its generally safe to travel with double decker in Hong Kong. 3. I think there are only around 4 bus manufacturers in Hong Kong, that have double decker bus models supplied and currently in use (ADL, Volvo, Man and Scania), and they are all European manufacturers (Despite KMB, the largest double decker bus operator in the world, consistently collaborate with those manufacturers for new bus models, say Enviro 500 MMC /Volvo B8L) . So, that's not that much competitors too. 4. Also one of the reason it is everywhere in HK is that vehicle longer than 13m is consider as long vehicle and require separate license. Hence, you only see bus model having a length of 12.8m but not any bus longer than that.

[@PrograError]

on point 4, is that a colonial pass down? (as much as _Central_ says otherwise) cos here in SG it's basically similar except, from what I know, longer buses have to have the reflective chevron strips similar to those EU/UK ambulance's back's red-white warning chevrons

[@chungonion]

@@PrograError In HK, those long vehicles (i.e. ≥13m length) have to affix a "LONG VEHICLE" indication. That's usually seen on a container truck but otherwise uncommon. i guess HK is similar to SG on someway that land space are precious and vehicle length restrictions help save some of the precious land.

[@blackman-bp4tq]

Hk still have single deckers

[@CaptainM792]

It would be great to see 13m double decker buses in service on the streets of Hong Kong in the future.

[@rail0015]

Caetano and wright as well

[@kieranstravels]

I’m in a smaller part of the UK, Essentially in the countryside, and we have a regular double decker service up to every 7 minutes on a particular route here. Double deckers are definitely a useful asset for routes where capacity is needed. The UK also has for the most part got rid of any bendy buses we had, so double deckers are probably the next best thing.

[@davidty2006]

Hmmm Bendy busses are little to non existant. So the double deckers litterally took the entire nation over to the point it's impossible to not see one.

[@toranshaw4029]

I'm in a rural part of the UK too where they're mostly singles... there is, however, one double decker route going through the nearby town, which serves to connect it to the county town in one direction and the main seaside towns in the other.

[@kieranstravels]

@@toranshaw4029 Yeah. Much of a similar case here.

[@jasonleahy5543]

There are ex-London bendy buses in Brighton which will be replaced by double decker buses as the pandemic has resulted in more people working from home and too few passengers for bendy buses. Transport for London boss Andy Byford said a couple of months ago that TfL might buy electric bendy buses for a few straightish routes in London.@@davidty2006

[@kieranstravels]

@@jasonleahy5543 London getting bendy buses again? lol no

[@marsgal42]

I remember when Victoria BC introduced double-decker buses. They were practical, more capacity and a better fit for the small city blocks downtown than articulated buses. They also appealed to Victoria's "more British than the British" schtick.

[@allanlindskoog]

We continually to use a lot of double deckers here is Victoria, particularly on certain routes. Routes from downtown to the ferry collect passengers, and then disgorge them all at the end. Since there isn't necessarily a crowd ready to get onboard yet, the unloading time isn't an issue. Some other routes aren't as concentrated, so loading and unloading aren't an issue either. And kids love them!

[@InflatableBuddha]

@@allanlindskoog Yep - rode the double decker routes to the ferry when I was in Victoria for school. It works well for express routes such as that with few stops, which also explains why we use them on highway express routes in Metro Vancouver (555 from Carvolth/Langley to Lougheed Station)

[@teddymacrae]

Vic was the first city in North America to introduce double deckers. Im fairly certain just because of the tourist factor. That said I think they suit the city well, its a small scale place and I think they allow BC transit to have pretty high capacity routes on streets that maybe dont have the curb space for articulated busses

[@cordcorcese2448]

@@teddymacrae Nah it wasn't for tourism. The big reason Victoria doesn't have articulated buses is because the blocks downtown are tiny. Only 2 articulated buses could fit in a block downtown, which is a massive problem when Douglas street has so many routes bundled on it. You can already buses spilling into intersections at peak, and longer buses would make this worse and make it happen more off peak

[@UrbanRail]

@@cordcorcese2448 although they did become a tourist hit with visitors

[@Aphfaneire]

In Ireland, Dublin Bus use's almost exclusively a double decker fleet. Bus Eireann the national bus company (under the same semi-state) also use's a lot of double deckers of varying models for regional transport and intercity. Bus Eireann also runs services in other cities and towns, such as Cork and Galway. Here the models can vary even more wildly with cast-offs and older models filtering through. But new buses bought by the National Transport Agency (NTA) are begining to replace each companies fleet and combine the livery nationwide. One delay to Dublin's bus connects programme has been that there are very few fully electric double deckers. So in combination with a driver shortage it has been a slow process to roll out our upgraded bus services.

[@ArchOfWinter]

Trains/tram and buses complement each other, they don't replaces each other. Hong Kong has a well designed metro system, but buses plays a major role in transporting people to the stations. Practically every MTR station that has a bus terminal nearby has a circular bus route that takes people to/from nearby neighborhoods. Direct bus routes are more convenient than needing to change train lines. The convenient of direct bus route also leads to comfort as commuters can nap on the upper deck of a bus without the usual noisy crowd of the train. While there's a dedicated airport express train line in Hong Kong, there are still plenty of airport express bus routes that directly services major districts, negating the needs to change to a different trainline while hauling a bunch of luggage.

[@davidty2006]

Trams are good for them routes that are really high capacity and busses struggle to deal with them. And busses well deal with the other lesser busy routes. Then all link up with the trains or a downtown high street.

[@isaaclao2380]

Tbh AEL is just too expensive and that its really just for HK island, LWB is way cheaper and even Cityflyer is less than half the price of AEL which gets affected by Western Harbour tunnel's expensive toll fee

[@josir1994]

Minibus is closer to the last mile solution you're describing

[@kaihang4685]

Yep I agree - the minibuses are the feeder services for the MTR while bigger double decker buses in HK are more point-to-point to take pressure off the train lines. It’s nice to take a bus from Wong Tai Sun to Sha Tin instead of being crushed by people between Kowloon Tong and Tai Wai…at least this was before the Tuen Ma Line.

[@Mgameing123]

Good job! The actual truth of why the UK loves its DD's is the fact that its much cheaper to maintain than bendy buses as DD's use less complicated parts!

[@davidty2006]

Majority of the busses come from the same company as well. And tend to be linked with other busses like the Enviro 400's are basically double decker Enviro 200's. And even despite their age they are well maintained and look reasonably modern. Also tradition is a factor since us brits had double decker busses and trams pretty much everywhere. Leading to some designs like the Balloon tram and the AEC Routemaster. And that continued with a ton of Leylands and now Alexander Dennis and Wrightbus. Despite the trams falling out of favor.

[@Zveebo]

Also bendy buses often aren’t great on tight UK streets. Double deckers take up a lot less room.

[@davidty2006]

@@Zveebo Hmmm their turning circle is the exact same. And theres no pesky trailer.

[@Mgameing123]

@@Zveebo yes

[@hairyairey]

They require no more storage space than a single decker and that's important

[@paulmccarthy5713]

In London the double deckers are more of a direct route usually while the single one go around residential areas and use smaller tighter roads

[@aMMa1726]

‘In short, the imperative of competitive transit has a hard side and a soft side. The hard side is all about not wasting people time and the soft side is about making them happy’.

[@RMTransit]

That’s a good way of explaining it!

[@LilBoyHexley]

Your point about making transit fun is one I've been thinking about a lot. I always feel like cities undersell the degree with which really good transit can become a true *feature* of the city. And not just a conveyance like another highway. Something that makes people want to live and work there, and a something cool and convenient that tourists flock to.

[@andrewburnett4931]

Ah, the double decker! Only two places to be, top deck at the front and top deck at the rear, one for an exciting ride and the rear for exciting things of a different nature, I miss my youth lol.

[@khidorahian]

Ahh, you did a little hanky panky with the ladies? Can’t do that now, you’ll be on tape!

[@crossleydd42]

@@khidorahian Spoilsports!

[@nathanw9770]

The top deck at the rear is a nightmare in London. Usually filled with loud secondary school kids or roadmen lol.

[@newfelo]

I'd love to see more double decker buses, but here in Santiago it would be complicated because of electrical and fiber optic cables that cross the city. Maybe in bus corridors would be a good idea

[@mixi171]

I wonder whether any of the transit agencies have considered that DDs need half the parking space in bus bays and OMF and can handle tighter turns. Btw in coffee centric Seattle we call them "double tall"

[@TheNewGreenIsBlue]

How low are these electrical cables? They're probably high enough to give clearance. Vancouver has trolley wires all over and double deckers fit no problem. Remember, a double-decker bus is not DOUBLE the height. They're 33-40% taller @ 4-4.5m. A standard articulated bus is ~3.1m. The upper deck is mostly for sitting so in some cases doesn't require as high a clearance for standees. Berlin uses shorter double decker buses than London, for example.

[@jasonleahy5543]

@@TheNewGreenIsBlue Alexander Dennis Limited double decker buses Envior500 North American model 4.1 m Envior500 SuperLo North American model 3.9 m.

[@hairyairey]

@@TheNewGreenIsBlue There should be no "standees" on the upper deck, it raises the centre of gravity of the bus and makes it easier to topple. They are only ever tested for tipping with simulated seated passengers. There's a great London Transport video on KZbin about it.

[@hairyairey]

@@TheNewGreenIsBlue Also, Middlesborough used to have 12 foot 8 inch double decker buses to fit under the 13 foot 6 inch Middlesborough station bridge. If you were sat on a coach you'd be above the upstairs passengers, which is weird.

[@camberweller]

“…obsessed with making it uninteresting”. THIS! One of the things I remember best about pro-transit folks in Toronto up until about 2002 (when I moved) was that too many of them weren’t pro-transit per se, they were anti-car. There was also far too often a strong streak of PENANCE about them: they wanted you taken out of the sin of the car but they didn’t care if you were miserable once you were Saved. [Churches don’t care if pews are comfortable as long as your arse is in them, after all. ;) ] A big part problem was that “how do we make this good and sell it to people?” is a private sector mindset, whereas most of the pro transit people were of the political left, and had a public sector, *dirigiste* mindset. Private businesses have to be pleasant so that people want to come back and choose to come back. Government services don’t have to be or do any of that, because people have to come back and are made to come back. The latter mindset translates poorly into making public transit something that people actually choose.

[@drdewott9154]

Meanwhile the problem around my neck of the woods is largely the right now wanting anything to do with transit for the most part. Heck they wouldn't ever want to improve the quality of the transit vehicles, or stops, because that would cost money, when they're all about spending as little tax payer money as possible! They'd see improved and more comfortable buses and stops as a waste, uneccesary expenses.

[@ayindestevens6152]

Honestly I see that even today. It’s often why I don’t actively participate in the larger discourse because it’s more anti- this than pro- that and save for the true believers it’s hard to get people who have a baseline understanding to help sustain any changes. I hope that changes but I’m not entirely convinced.

[@purpleicewitch6349]

That is a good point about "how to sell it to people" feeling like a private sector / business mindset, which can indeed seem distasteful to those of us on the political left especially in countries like the US. However, it doesn't have to be a private sector thing. It's not hard to find images online of the extremely ornate and artistic subway stations the USSR had. I would say that making public spaces, and especially transit in the face of climate change, attractive, artful, and comfortable should very much be something that the political left calls for. It's not even a particularly radical thing to call for either.

[@philroberts7238]

@@ayindestevens6152 But being "anti-car" could easily, and correctly, be translated as being "pro-planet" or "pro-humanity". (I was about to say "pro-life", until I realised that in North America that would mean something entirely different and quite contradictory!)

[@danteshydratshirt2360]

TBH I dont think people care too much about the look of public transport they are more concerned with cost, frequency and reliability. Outside of London its poor. Concentrate on cost frequency and reliability first

[@brianbell4937]

One thing we do in UK with double deckers that I doubt you see in many other countries, especially America, is to use them down incredibly narrow country lanes, often with tree branches scraping the roof. Generally the reason is that the capacity is needed for school time journeys, and the same bus just stays on the route all day. Or sometimes the double decker is the only spare bus between schools that can be used to run a shoppers bus during the daytime. Would send photos, but unable to so so on here.

[@jasonlescalleet5611]

That us actually interesting. I wonder how much of the capacity of buses and other public transportation is taken up by students going to or from school. It makes sense that it would be a lot, because kids too young to drive (or old enough to drive but without a job that pays enough to buy a car) need some other form of transportation. Here in the US we have special buses just for this purpose (the yellow school buses that are as iconic here as the red Routemasters in London) and those are everywhere-even places with no regular buses. Thus that part of the bus-riding public is already catered to and regular buses don’t need to handle it. It might be part of the reason that Americans freak out at the idea of kids riding public transportation on their own-we’re used to having a special form of transportation just for those kids, so there is less need for them to ride the adult-oriented kind.

[@jasonleahy5543]

@@jasonlescalleet5611 In London there are routes with double decker buses that run around school hours to carry kids to and from schools and other passengers.

[@smadaoeht]

@@jasonlescalleet5611 There's a couple of factors here which differentiate from the US - the driving age in the UK is 17. so most kids can't drive at all until their second last or last year of schooling. And then also, buses that only serve schools are pretty much non-existent - but I think this is probably due to schools tending to be very close to students (the UK is a dense country, and most communities pre-date the car), and public transport already covering a lot.

[@beladx]

@@jasonlescalleet5611 The answer generally is: a lot. Of course, it depends on where you are specifically, but students tend to be among the largest transit-riding demographic here. Where I grew up (a city of ca. 190,000 people), bus lines usually come every 15 or 30 minutes and you are able to get a seat outside the city centre (and even there it is not too terribly crowded most of the time). There are special busses running alongside the regular routes only once or twice a day in the morning and afternoon when the students travel to and from school, and even then, busses are overtly crowded. Pre-pandemic, it was common on some routes to have bendybusses filled to the brim from the very front by the driver to the very back, and I am sure it is not much different now. And keep in mind that I am talking of a well-functioning public transit system which gets a decent number of riders off-peak in a place that does not separate students from regular transit users. If your local system is built to serve relatively few transit riders, then all of the students taking transit in the morning and afternoon would probably take up even more of the capacity. In my city, there would usually be several schools along the same transit route, one would not generally go to the closest secondary school to one's place of residents and the whole system had transfers in mind, so that might differ in a US city which got rid of yellow schoolbusses in favour of sending students to regular busses too - the system would need to allow students to travel from wherever in the city they live to wherever their school might be.

[@stevemorrey6401]

I used to drive for a company where we used double deckers on very narrow roads and low trees. The main reason we kept them on during the day and weekend was because the local council was useless at clearing obstructing foliage so a constant barrage of upper decks kept it in check instead.

[@TamAidan]

In Hong Kong, we have so many double deckers and bus companies are trying to pack more seats in a bus, 12metre bus capacity from 124-126 in 2007 increased to 136-138 since 2015. And yes, again, Alexander Dennis and Volvo. But we have bus routes using double deckers with time intervals of every 2-5 minutes and still in need of more extra buses for capacity. And we have single deckers serving some places where countryside can't accommodate tall buses or the routes are actually in low demand. The argument of only 2 doors for such big capacity is an issue, that is just some bs. Getting on and off the bus is a quick movement and when commuting everybody is in a hurry. If it's a big crowd getting off, some drivers will open the front door for alighting as well, serving as extra path. Likewise, if so many getting on the bus at interchanges, bus companies can arrange octopus card machines at the exit doors so passenger can get on from both doors. Singapore already starting to add the 3rd door at the back of the bus with extra connecting staircase for crowd control, like the London's NBfL. In Hong Kong we don't have articulated buses as the extended part is not doable in some narrower streets and HK don't have wide lanes in general. Double deckers enter HK market long long time ago, back in 1940s. So we are very much used to double decker operations. So do Singapore and London. North America generally uses double deckers for long travel journeys, as far as I know. And you guys have longer lengths of buses. Buses in HK currently ranges from 10.4 to 12.8m. London ones are usually around 10.1-10.9m. Berlin ones are 13.8m and Edinburgh has 13.4m. North American usually have Enviro500 in 12.8m. So the capacity vary a lot.

[@hobog]

For tight corners (maybe), long routes, with local stops which don't need high passenger throughput. Hong Kong is an example against idea that double-deckers don't work with hills

[@chungonion]

Once someone in ADL has said that, if you could sell a double decker bus to Hong Kong, then you could sell that double decker bus anywhere in the world. This is because Hong Kong has quite a number of challenging factors to keep the bus running in good condition (e.g. humid, hot, hilly and the bus also have to accommodate freeway and urban road settings)

[@darthwiizius]

@@chungonion Dunno about now but in the 80s DDs were not uncommon in HK.

[@Ethan-vj5mt]

There used to be double deckers in Macau, which proves that double deckers should be able to sell to anywhere in the world

[@hairyairey]

@@darthwiizius HK was at one point the only country to run DDs with triple rear axles that could seat over 100 people. Not sure that's still true.

[@darthwiizius]

@@hairyairey A double double decker, it'd be cool if they still make those. I would think it's possible because HK is very densely populated I believe so I imagine extra per vehicle capacity would be useful. Also in Police Story there is the double decker scene where Jackie Chan almost killed his stuntmen involving a double decker. In the scene Jacky forces the bus to a sudden stop and the 2 stuntmen went through the window, they were supposed to break their falls on a car but the stunt went wrong and they landed flat out on the tarmac. In the film when you see the guys writhing in pain it is 100% not acting.

[@MrLukealbanese]

Excellent video Reece. There's a lot to this subject worth further discussion. In fact in London the very most frequent routes do use DDs (like the 38 etc.) often as frequent as every 2 minutes in the peak. We did try 500 articulated buses for a while but they didn't have as many seats and weren't as comfortable and cyclists in particular felt that they were disadvantaged by artics poor visibility and wide turning radii. Thing is, DDs have a big advantage on congested streets, and that is that you get good capacity for no extra roadspace. Our trams used to be double decked in the old days as well. Some of them were very large.

[@70sVRsignalman]

Hello there, the other problem with articulated/bendy buses is higher maintenance costs, especially if on windy or stop start routes, hence the reason for articulated buses usually being restricted to long highway type routes.

[@anthonywong7004]

Living in Hong Kong I find the general public is in favour of buses, despite having MTR as a proper metro system as it's often too crowded and requires standing the whole time for some hour-long journeys, the system with its scale is somewhat limited considering the population density of HK With the "railway as a backbone" policy the HK government has always been trying to kill off bus routes and frequencies as much as possible, but with MTR's increasing reliability issues (search SelTrac CBTC) and partial ownership from the disliked government buses really show itself as the transit alternative for citizens, at least you can mostly have a (really) comfortable seat for your ride

[@davidty2006]

I think Hong Kong Uses Alexander Dennis busses... I guess no one can escape the wrath of Dennis...

[@user-wx6mi5xh7w]

Another benefit to the buses in HK is the avoidance of transfers. You can go from, say, Sheung Wan Rumsay Street exit to Tin Shui Wai on the Tsuen Wan or Island Line, transfer to the Tung Chung Line, then to the Tuen Ma Line; or you can just take, say, 969 with no need to transfer.

[@anthonywong7004]

@@davidty2006 There are other double decker models, mainly Volvo but also including MAN and some Chinese manufacturer so it's definitely not a monopoly

[@PrograError]

@@anthonywong7004 i wonder if that could slowly change in the coming years... then again ADL does have a manufacturing plant in qing hai over the bay (in fact the bay bridge shuttles uses those IIRC.)

[@hairyairey]

Has the MTR replaced its trains yet? Because by now they would be over 40 years old.

[@jarodh-m6099]

As someone with mobility issues, I worry about accessibility with double decker busses. I have been on them in Las Vegas and found getting to the second level challenging, and that was before my knee injury. The stairs can make navigating the lower level more awkward, an additional challenge for wheelchair or other mobility device users.

[@user-ed7et3pb4o]

Everybody always leaves space for the disabled on the lower deck (or gets pointedly told to move by other passengers if they don’t give way when they should). The lower deck is mostly used by the disabled, elderly, and (at night) women. There’s still plenty of space down there, especially because anyone who can goes to the top level and isn’t likely to take up space at the bottom.

[@rhodrage]

Everyone in Britain knows the best seats on a DD bus are the front at the top. The worst are the ones at the back at the top....

[@joshuawilson7464]

Back and at the top is where you go to be verbally abused by a 16 year old

[@rhodrage]

@@joshuawilson7464 for me it's 14 year olds

[@toranshaw4029]

@@rhodrage they normally sit in the back, in my experience.

[@toranshaw4029]

Yup, I'd always try and grab a seat as close to the front as I can! 🙂

[@RMTransit]

The front seat is basically like driving, but better!

[@AnthonyBrusca]

Your comment about passengers going to the first deck of buses before their stop is the reason why NJ transit multi level cars are fine. The middle level at the ends are really the way of keeping dwell times low.

[@PrograError]

I would say we need all three; - *Bendies* for routes with high capacity needs but for short distance; - *Doubles* for routes with high capacity and long distance; - *Rigids* for routes needing quick turn around or starting out or low occupancy rate (that said, mini bus is better for the last ) Cos on doubles, as people are lazy, everyone stays on 1st floor if they are on short distance travel (i.e. 5-8 stops) but bendies are space hogs on road and depots (serious issue in Singapore, apparently.)

[@anindrapratama]

weird that space hgoging is a issue since SG’s roads are mostly wide

[@PrograError]

@@anindrapratama sure the road is wide but the bus is also long... Which that space could have hold like 3-5 cars but the bendy hogged the space. Not that it should be a reason not to have bendys... In some route, it's just better use bendys, others DDs

[@OntarioTrafficMan]

Yep that's pretty much the answers.

[@danteshydratshirt2360]

I think Reece has successfully argued that train metro/services need to be more frequent and with smaller vehicles...not seeing why this does not apply to buses

[@OntarioTrafficMan]

@@danteshydratshirt2360 because below about 5 minutes headways it becomes impossible to run a reliable bus service in mixed traffic, or below about 4 minutes with a dedicated ROW, but still with traffic signals. On frequent routes, a late bus' extra dwell time at a stop is a function of how late it is. If your route is scheduled every 2 minutes with small buses and you are 1 minute late, there will be have 50% more passengers waiting at downstream stops, than for an average bus. That's a lot of extra time at the stop, which makes the bus even later. If instead the service is every 4 minutes with really big buses, a 1 minute delay only results in 25% more passengers than average, which is more easy to recover from. Unless you have a grade separated busway, larger buses provide a better (more reliable) service for very busy routes than spamming smaller buses which will just get bunched together.

[@marksinthehouse1968]

I’m a former London bus driver and dwell times have never been too much of an issue ok when I drove routemaster the got on the back and the conductor rang the bell,one person operation wasn’t too bad most people had change ,but now with oyster it’s just touch on ,in London we are use to them and if we are going far upstairs short hop stay down if it’s not too full ,we had some buses in the mid ninties we had done double deckers with just the front door like we have in the sticks not successful soon went back to duel door ,the bendi bus was good in my opinion as for the Boris master they are in need of refurbishment ,I drove mainly routemaster ,metrobuses and Olympians plus single decker darts ,later low floor Volvos and Dennis ,the scania was too a good bus ther are a great people mover 100 on some if full ,check out tracline 65 from 1984 it was an experimental guided busway in the Birmingham area of the U.K. ,enjoyed the video Reece 👍🏻😊

[@ethandanielburg6356]

I was recently in Mexico City and I took Metrobus line 7, which uses double-decker buses. These buses didn’t seem to get as crowded as the single-decker buses or the metro, and it was really cool to be able to sit on the top deck and enjoy the views of the Paseo de la Reforma. The buses also come very frequently (often around a bus every 2 minutes or so). I was honestly very impressed by Mexico City’s BRT network, and line 7 was probably the nicest line due to the double-decker buses.

[@Fan652w]

Thanks Reece for an excellent video. In Britain OUTSIDE LONDON double-deck buses have two drawbacks. Firstly, passengers with short journeys (say no more than 15 minutes) are reluctant to go upstairs. Secondly, the buses usually have only one door, and that means very long stop dwell times - two minutes is typical at city centre stops in my home city of Nottingham.

[@Zveebo]

In Edinburgh almost all the double-deckers have two doors. There’s definitely a preference for staying on the lower floor for shorter journeys, which is understandable. But tourists and kids love the upper decks, so it mostly balances out.

[@acfbrown1]

I live in Edinburgh and only the Enviro400XLB buses have two doors. Although I would say they are used on the correct routes like the 11 and 16 as traffic is so slow through Morningside etc plus other high capacity routes which rum out of the central garage.

[@erikharaldsson2416]

@@Zveebo when I was there in 2016 it seemed that most double decker busus only had a front doror, and a single stair to the upstairs floor. That plus the short stopping space made them seem pretty slow. But hopefully it has improved since then.

[@davidjones332]

Just about every operator in the UK now uses contactless payment, so boarding is pretty much as fast as people can walk through the door. All buses are going to have long dwell times in a city centre where large numbers of people are boarding or alighting, but in most places that doesn't apply to 90% of stops on a route or outside peak times.

[@danteshydratshirt2360]

@@davidjones332 I posted this above. Why even have payment on the bus? I used to live in Switzerland where you buy tickets at stops or online. The bus driver is there to drive the vehicle not deal with someones weird ticket or payment problem

[@greghuang2314]

Personally, I think that articulated buses make more sense on inner-city routes and bus rapid transit, while double deckers make more sense for longer, suburban/commuter routes. For example, I think double deckers would make a lot of sense on many of NYC's express bus routes, NJ Transit's routes into Manhattan. However, the issue is again-clearance. Even the lowest double decker bus available in North America (the Enviro500 SuperLo at 12 feet 10 inches) is too tall to fit in almost every major bridge/tunnel in the NYC area except the Lincoln Tunnel, and most overpasses in NYC are no more than about 12 feet 6 inches tall. Unfortunately, unless we decide to drastically rebuild every bridge and tunnel in NYC I doubt we will see double decker buses here anytime soon. That being said, in May 2018 the MTA piloted a single double-decker bus on the X17J express route between Manhattan and Staten Island via the Lincoln Tunnel, which is one of the very few NYC bus routes that a double decker bus can clear. However, the MTA decided against ordering more double deckers for regular service, since they cannot be used anywhere else in the NYC bus system, and it's not worth it to maintain a special fleet of double deckers for 3-4 routes that operate weekdays only.

[@snowman4008]

Be nice if nj transit can test them out the issue with nj transit like nyc transit is most bus garages and depot weren't built for buses like that, nj transit another is the port authority bus terminal.

[@jasonleahy5543]

I think the trial was with two electric Alexander Dennis Envior500 SuperLo double decker buses. British built double decker buses were used in NYC 1976-78 but early UK made rear engines buses were unreliable due to the lack of airflow to the rear radiators causing the engines to overheat and automatic doors breaking down and were replaced, the engineers had only designed front engines buses before. US made double decker buses did operate in NYC 1938-60.

[@middletransport]

"Not worth it to maintain a special fleet of double deckers for 3-4 routes that operate weekdays only" lmao tell that to AC Transit, who does just that. (only 4 weekday rush hour Transbay routes out of San Francisco uses a fleet of 15 of them... for some reason)

[@baerlauchstal]

Nice, as a Londoner, to see the city through the eyes of a friendly and knowledgeable visitor. We’re a complaining bunch sometimes, and these aren’t the best times for the UK, so it’s a shot in the arm to be reminded of things we do well. Thank you It’s worth noting that double deckers aren’t confined to London. Larger cities throughout Britain and Ireland tend to use them, and I’ve certainly ridden on them on the island of Jersey as well. Hong Kong, which uses them on hill roads with pretty sheer drops, is the most thrilling/disconcerting double decker experience I’ve had. Try Stanley to Central!

[@eattherich9215]

I once did the Bath 'skyline' bus tour. It was not an enjoyable ride.

[@marcelwiszowaty1751]

Indeed! Double-deckers are pretty much standard in the UK, not just in cities. Single-deckers are commonplace too.

[@Bucklesman2]

On the foliage question: where I'm from, lots of the newer double-deckers have guard rails at the front of the upper decks like the bus at 1m 55s in this video. The local bus company also has an ex-service double-decker with the roof taken off that goes around in summer with a work crew pruning roadside trees at bus height. It's really quite funny to see it going down the road with the top deck completely full of pruned branches!

[@mchmchminecraft1637]

I think Hong Kong has a very decent history on double decker bus. We had many different companies that built them for us on demand tackling different needs. From British Leyland, Mercedes Benz, Daimler from the pass to Alexander Dennis, Volvo, Scania recently. From tight hill twist to flat out motorway and streets full of illegal parking. Specially when many routes are serving similar customer base with the MTR and yet some bus company still find ways to keep their competitiveness when the public policy is lean toward the MTR. Looking forward to see that episode.

[@jeanphilippeardrone5135]

In Lyon, it would be really impossible to use them in the city center. We have way too many trolleybus and tram powerline. They could be used on the busses connecting outer suburbs with the outermost metro station. For this we use a lot articlated busses currently but the sitting layout of a double decker bus would be more appropriate for this use (more sitting, less standing)

[@Fan652w]

If necessary, you raise the height of the tram/trolleybus wires. There are numerous cities where trams and double-deck buses co-exist. I live in one - Nottingham (England). In Lausanne and St Gallen (both Switzerland) double deck buses co-exist with trolleybuses.

[@jeanphilippeardrone5135]

@@Fan652w In Lausanne I know that double decker busses never cross trolley or M1 power lines and that they mostly run outside of the city. I will do some reaserch about Nottingham though, seems interresting...

[@jeanphilippeardrone5135]

So I did some reaserch about Nottingham and seems like : - There are no more trolleybuses or trams in Nottingham - When there were trollybusses, these were double decker trollybusses, therefore no problem having super high power lines So to me seems like no one in the world was able to make double decker busses go below power lines for single decker trams or trollybuses Of course correct me if anything wrong or if someone can find a conter example.

[@jeanphilippeardrone5135]

I don't have formal proof but this might indeed be possible in sankt gallen as their power lines seem really high up in the sky. I can't find evidence that they run double decker in the city though (I even read the german wikipedia pages about that, no mention of double decker busses on the network)

[@Fan652w]

@@jeanphilippeardrone5135 I am sorry Jeanphillipe, but you are wrong. In Nottingham where I live there have been modern 'second generation' trams since 2004. And there are streets used by both trams and double-deck buses. The double-deck buses in St Gallen Switzerland run along streets which also have trolleybuses - LOW WiRES ARE NOT a problem there. Other cities where trams and double-deck buses co-exist include Berlin, Gothenburg and Edinburgh. I repeat 'There are numerous cities where trams and double-deck buses co-exist'. (eg Reece's Toronto).

[@yester9037]

I love the top deck of a bus, nobody standing and making you assess whether you should give up your seat.

[@sshhii]

Parts of Oahu have a double-deck bus service. It's mostly for moving tourists around, and it's pretty expensive, but they probably keep a lot of rental cars and rideshares out of Waikiki. I can't imagine them being as successful without the fun-factor of the open-air second floor.

[@Desnorteado021]

Here in Brazil we have interstate double-deckers (since we basically don't have intercity trains, people only travel by bus or plane). Usually, the lower floor is what we call "bed-seat" (like a sleeper) and the upper floor is the regular seat. Kinda fun, actually. We like to travel on the upper floor in a day trip (to see the landscape better) and in the lower floor on night trips to sleep hahaha

[@piervail]

You're right Reece about competition. We should open it worldwide. And we should stop this horrendous "lower bid" tag. The biddings should also be evaluate for the quality of the product as well as the price. And on many more aspects. Of course it will take much more 'precious' time to our deputies than just picking up the 'lower' one. Sorry. Excuse my 'French' I'm tired. Have a nice day!

[@RMTransit]

No I agree, the lowest bid often does create a lot of problems. We need to assess if there are meaningful other benefits to more expensive bids, especially when the difference is small

[@MrMarinus18]

That won't happen easily but I think there should be a third player which is a government institution. With companies that rely heavily on government contracts I think there should also be a government option that private companies have to compete with.

[@eldrago19]

It's actually a requirement on US interstates that there is enough clearance to drive an ICBM down them. I think a double decker bus will be fine.

[@randomguy-tg7ok]

How, exactly, does one drive a missile down a road? Asking for a friend.

[@williamchamberlain2263]

@@randomguy-tg7ok either very, very carefully or very, very fast depending on whether you've lit the blue touchpaper.

[@BlairdBlaird]

@@randomguy-tg7ok On a big truck. While truck-mounted ICBM launch platform are not part of the US military doctrine (unlike the USSR), ICBMs still need to be moved around from fab to silo or shipyard, and the Peacekeepers were chonky boys. They also had to be moved back to "defab" for START compliance. For that purpose they're put in an armored oversize rig (the "Payload Transporter III, for Minuteman III missiles).

[@davidty2006]

@@randomguy-tg7ok heavy haulage truck.

[@the_retag]

@@BlairdBlaird *not currently part of doctrine/fleet They were used, for example pershing 2

[@peterg1978]

You recently did a video about the evils of double decker trains. The same applies with buses. There is little room on the ground level as stairs take up a lot of space and it is not practical to take luggage up stairs, so there needs to be a space for luggage storage and a vestibule at the front for fair-paying or tap on. If you are only going a short distance it is silly to climb the stairs up and then climb down again. They are useful in Melbourne, Australia where they travel a long distance point to point with no stops between the airport and the central train station.

[@hesterclapp9717]

What I find with double decker buses is you get more than twice the seats. On the bottom, there's the cab, the doorways, the wheelchair accessible areas, etc. but on the top it's just seats with the stairs down.

[@harrycchambers]

Super interesting video, thanks for it! I will add one thing re: comfort on double-decker busses, which is that although you face forward the bus tends to sway more at the top and is even fairly dangerous if you try to traverse the stairs in motion. This isn’t to disparage the double-deckers, I still prefer them overall, but it felt like a really core part of the experience that wasn’t mentioned.

[@arahman56]

Yeah, the stair part is definitely true for GO Buses. No way am I going to use those stairs if the bus isn't stopped. Problem is, the safer GO Train-style stairs also mean less passenger space.

[@davidjones332]

It's still safer than having large numbers of standing passengers herded like cattle into a single-decker. I spent years in the industry and staircase accidents are very rare as long as the bus has a forward-ascending straight staircase, which most modern designs do.

[@harrycchambers]

to be clear: I'm speaking to my experience on London city buses more than Toronto GO buses. London buses swaying more at the top was an uncomfortable experience.

[@eddie8606]

I’d say about 70% or London busses and maybe 40% of uk busses are double decker and 0% of trains are here (low rail bridges tunnels). And As you probably experienced double deckers are constantly thwacked with branches and the such, the views of the city you get up there are amazing. A lot of people find issue getting down the stairs especially when it’s moving but I grew up using them so haven’t

[@patrickmcneill150]

What great timing for this video to drop. I'm currently sitting in the king seat on my double decker in Victoria BC. This bus really does make my commute more enjoyable especially on days like today where I get a great view of the sunrise over the ocean.

[@pureessenceofgaming1745]

The companies making transit buses in North America is New Flyer, Giling, ElDorado bus company, BYD, Alexander Denis, Nova bus, and Proterra.

[@synthiandrakon]

I don't know how far NA is behind in this regard still but one thing that really made buses feel more convenient for me was the advent of contactless payments. In the UK every card machine now has NFC payment options, this has resulted in almost every card having NFC payments, and it also means you can pay using phone payment solutions pretty much everywhere. with the technology being so widespread, it means that when it comes to busses when they added those payment options it meant almost instantly a large portion of the population had an easy way to pay. personally I would often not get the bus because going out of my way to get cash and then having to carry the change around for the rest of the day was kind of inconvenient. now I feel much freer to just hop onto a bus because there is just so much less friction involves

[@ArchOfWinter]

I had technology shock when I visited the US in the late 90s. I came from Hong Kong where the contactless Octopus Card was adopted pretty much instantly as soon as they were introduced. I visited San Francisco and it baffled me people were counting out coins for the bus. In my little kid mind, I couldn't comprehend how a country that put people on the moon are still counting change on the buses or needing to by tickets every time they use the metro. The US is getting better, especially with smartphone apps now. But most cities are playing catch up.

[@synthiandrakon]

@@ArchOfWinter it's not just that it's also card payment systems for like credit and debit cards. Until alarmingly recent times the standard practice to authenticate a card payment in America was still signing a reciept and having the cashier check it against the signature on the card

[@ArchOfWinter]

@@synthiandrakon "Check" the signature is a very generous term. I've never seen any cashier, aside from a bank, actually checking the signature. As long as that line isn't blank, they'll take it.

[@synthiandrakon]

@@ArchOfWinter I was just completely baffled that during the same period of time I was seeing mass adoption of NFC credit cards, which by extension meant the ability to use phone payments. I was reading articles about how American banks were experiencing pushback trying to introduce chip and pin technology, (a technology so old in the UK that basically no one under 30 really remembers a time without it)

[@Zveebo]

Great to see you doing some bus content, Reece - would love to see you do a video looking at a city which has a bus focused transit network that works, and the pluses and minuses of that.

[@Whitbypoppers]

My first time on a double-decker bus in London was a disappointment. Having just landed at Heathrow in 1976 on my first trip to Europe, I discovered that, in those days, the upper floor was the smoking section! It was a different time.

[@kevinmarshall5431]

There is a bus route operated by transdev, numbered the X43 between Manchester and the Lancashire town of Burnley, having its own fleet of double decker buses. The fleet is packed full of features. With announcements, usb ports, tables, drink holders and even book lights! Plus it travels on the M66 motorway for a true commuter feel

[@alanmon2690]

And I thought the seats were incredibly comfortable (several years ago) and a good view of countryside. Edit: KZbinr "Eurasia Transport Explorer" has some videos on the X43 showing the interior - plenty of space upstairs.

[@RJE48]

Some great points you brought up. Having lived in London for the first 30 years of my life, the London Bus network is fantastic compared with the rest of the UK and this shows London has done things right. Small Single Deckers are used mainly in the suburbs of London. These are generally shorter routes that "go around the houses" ie small residential streets. This enables connections between lots of smaller districts to a single major town within London. Large Single Deckers generally are between two major towns via large to medium sided roads. They generally have more standing space rather than additional seats to accommodate more people in the rush hour. Double Deckers are used on the hub to hub routes which tend to be longer routes in the outskirts of London. They are also used in the centre of London because of the volume of people. You were saying about loading times, if you look at the design of a double decker bus in London, you walk in. Between the front and the rear doors you have the driver, stairs and disabled/pushchair space. On the bottom floor you have a seating area both behind the rear door and on the top floor upstairs. Because most people are seated in one of those two areas it means that it is quick and easy to get on and off the bus at your stop. You also are not allowed to stand on the top deck (did you notice the ceiling is higher on the bottom floor Vs the top floor?!) This makes it very uncomfortable to stand on the top deck. In London when buses excepted cash it took ages to board at each stop if someone was sifting through their change. The Oyster Card we use in London (either that or contactless bank cards) speeds up boarding as people do not need to stop walking as they board. Couple that with the exit door where people can get off at the same time... Now you know I said about the area between the front and rear doors, this area is full just before the doors open, by the time everyone has got off it is filling up with people who have just got on which also means that the access to the two seating areas are clear. If you couple this with bus times on the main routes of every 6-10 mins or sooner then it becomes a very attractive alternative to the motor car. Some of the single decker routes would have bus times between every 10-20mins. Some of the express bus routes in London may be once every 30mins however these are limited stop and travel very long distances on their routes.

[@MrMarinus18]

I also think a reason why the US struggles with it is national pride. In Japan the high speed rail is fantastic because the Japanese have a lot of pride in it. In the Netherlands the bike infrastructure is fantastic because the Dutch have a lot of pride in it. In Britain the bus system is fantastic because the British have a lot of pride in it. The US has a lot of pride in it's car infrastructure so changing that attitude is not easy cause an attack on cars is kind of an attack on the US itself. The Dutch and the Japanese also get very defensive if you talk badly about bikes or trains.

[@callumrsb]

All over the uk we have double decker. In the countryside, suburbs and cities. They are very efficient.

[@davidty2006]

They are good for pretty much all bus roles. and provide more accesible boarding than good chunk of coaches even if the ramps still need to be manually deployed by drivers.

[@stopsallmelb]

Sydney has one connecting the north shore with the cbd, really nice and frequent, made getting a bus pleasant 😂 and Melbourne has one too but only as the private airport connection, great for luggage at the bottom and a few seats for those who can't climb stairs then the rest sit up the top. I believe gold Coast airport bus is similar too.

[@kierannelson2581]

CDC in Wyndham has double deck buses for a route or two and the 777 route in the Gold Coast is also a DD bus. I haven't noticed any perceivable increase in riders due to it being double deck though. That was more aligned to frequency IMO.

[@stopsallmelb]

@@kierannelson2581 yeah I think the 777 is the airport one I got

[@kierannelson2581]

@@stopsallmelb yep. That's the one!

[@MrSuperleobros]

Sydney used to have a huge double decker network but sadly, like with Sydney's trams were removed. Double decker buses in Sydney serve a few rapid routes around the Sydney and are so much more pleasant than the bendy buses they replaced.

[@Dan-Athema]

There might be a reason why Hong Kong and Singapore have Double Decker buses considering how popular they are in the UK. The UK built both of those cities and still ran them whilst buses were a thing(not getting into the ethics of the British Empire here). And a lot of the buses in HK used to be built in the UK and shipped there (Alexander Dennis and Leyland for example)

[@user-ed7et3pb4o]

The irony is that Hong Kong and Singapore are both now far more successful and functional than the U.K. is, economically speaking.

[@Dan-Athema]

@@user-ed7et3pb4o Not really. London is still the financial centre of Europe. It's lost some importance after Brexit but is still the centre. Meanwhile companies are queuing up to get out of HK asap due to the CCP locking down on the reason why it was a beachhead into China without it being under the CCP. And Singapore is largely taking dominance from HK due to the above reasons. Asian and European markets are fairly independent compared to Europe and America for example

[@chrisd6719]

Alexander Dennis still exports buses to both of those cities. Built in Scarborough, North Yorkshire among other places in the UK.

[@stickynorth]

On a related Bus-rant topic, I would also love your take on the arrival of Arrival to the bus scene with its concept of micro factories around the world. The bus seems perfect as a product to me with large class walls, roofs, etc. They claim they've tested from -40c to +40c and specially call out Canada as the reason why along with the Nordics to test their equipment at those temps... I know from last year alone we saw both of those within 6 months here Alberta! ;-)

[@PrograError]

i wonder if they might come to SG... we could use some of those here IMO....

[@jasonleahy5543]

Arrival plans to build the buses in the UK and the USA but I have read recently that the firm is in financial difficulty.

[@darrenward9321]

I live in Hamilton, Canada and to see Double Deckers is always a great site as I'm originally from London, UK. But to touch on the topic of manufacturers, we do have the possibility of a build battle between Vanhool and Alexander Dennis seeing as Vanhool at the moment are the only other North American company that could supply Double Deckers

[@gregderise9969]

You’ve sold me! As well as all the commenters. I never thought bosses could be such an interesting topic, but what did I know? 🤷🏼‍♂️ I’ve always thought it would be fun to rode a double decker upstairs. They look more attractive from the outside and the photos you took on the inside top deck give a great impression. Buses in North America are so unchanging and unattractive. Just think if the nose of the bus was as imaginative as some of the newest metros, but in a road vehicle way. They could be inviting people who never rode a bus to try them if they looked futuristic and were equally reimagined on the inside for a pleasant experience of comfort and design. Well thought out video. Could be a launching point for more about better bus systems around our transit planet. Great work on this video. Keep taking the “upper deck” on your videos. The quality is a cut above and you’ve definitely lifted the channel with some of your touches. Can we hope some transit officials watch and get good ideas? It’s really great you have so many my fans spread around the planet who have great reports about transit Annette they live. The fact that you’ve inspired that makes the comments an interesting aspect of your videos. 👍

[@rockym9981]

The double deckers in Las Vegas are really nice

[@purpleicewitch6349]

One thing that comes to mind with double-decker buses is accessibility. Getting up the stairs to the second level may be difficult or impossible for disabled people, elderly people, people with strollers, suitcases, bags of groceries, etc. One might say "well they can just sit on the first level" which may sound good until the bus is mostly full and no one wants to let them sit (noting that some disabilities are not immediately apparent and some people will get aggressive or just ignore if a person asks to sit). There are surely ways to solve this, but only after thinking and talking about it a lot first.

[@neolithictransitrevolution427]

I suppose the question becomes "is there more room for disabled people on a 1 floor bus?", because in my experience this is already an existing problem, and I would think adding capacity and moving the people you can up stairs should free up room.

[@LouisOnAir]

The thing about the dwell time issue is that it's already been solved. Modern Routemasters have two staircases and three sets of doors, which is the same as a typical articulated bus.

[@LeeSmith-cf1vo]

Some fun facts not covered in the video:. 1. The capacity of a double decker is less than you might expect. There are a few reasons for this but mainly its because the stairs take a lot of space, and there is no standing on the upper deck (I presume it's considered too dangerous? Or maybe it's just because of the next thing... ) 2. The upper deck has a lower ceiling. Some taller people literally cannot stand upright on the top deck. 3. Some double deckers have an even lower ceiling on the top deck - presumably to fit under some of those pesky bridges (actually I'm not sure how many of these are in use today, possibly none, but they certainly used to exist).

[@Zveebo]

I wouldn’t expect there to be standing on the top floor of a double decker tbh! Wouldn’t be very practical.

[@OntarioTrafficMan]

The Ontario regional bus at 1:53 is an "ultra low" bus, with a ceiling height of only 1.7 m on the upper deck. Many people need to crouch down to move around upstairs.

[@hesterclapp9717]

As a brit, I used to think double decker buses were commonplace and I didn't know why London was so famous for them, but thought double decker trains were just an American thing.

[@martin.brandt]

In Germany, the small town of Aalen has had double decker service for decades. It probably works so well because quite some suburbs are a bit distant, so average travel distance is longer than what you would expect in a small town and makes climbing worthwile. Also, it saves space in the short central terminal at the rail station, allowing more routes to interchange simultaneously. Plus, the operator OVA simply is a fan of double deckers. Have used them myself decades ago when I lived there in a suburb. Upstairs seating is excellent.

[@SpaceboyYT]

I have been to Davis California. I have seen them use Double Decker Buses for the G route, and sometimes, they usually don’t allow you to go on the 2nd floor unless you ask them.

[@dav_8356]

I love how even though KZbin broke videoplayback, the ads still run just fine.

[@RMTransit]

[@joshuatk59]

One of the largest factors of dwell times (on busses in the UK) has been the method of payment. When people started to use Oyster/Contactless in London, it would sometimes reduce a 60s wait down to 20s, as people didn’t need to ‘buy a ticket’.

[@VEC7ORlt]

Lithuania here - just checked local regulations - max height for vehicles is 4.00m - most double deckers 4.4m, womp womp. Pretty sure most places have at least 4.2m guaranteed if not more, but still...

[@nicolasblume1046]

I always love to ride the double decker buses in Berlin, can't wait to try the new model!

[@TheFlyingBusman]

This is where the Routemasters, as used in London, made so much sense. Open rear platform making entry and egress very easy and a conductor collecting fares. They worked exceptionally well. The ultimate double deck bus you could say.

[@grahamc5531]

Watching this while sitting on the top deck of a bus here in North East England, enjoying the warm evening sunshine and the views across the countryside...

[@chrisschack9716]

The issue you were talking about for single-decker busses, Mississauga Transit is a perfect example! Many busses have LOTS of sideways seats, but only a few facing forward, and if the seat is around a wheel well, good luck with that! There are seats I literally cannot sit in, and others where I'm scrunched up. And of course, people move back until they reach the back doors where they STOP and make a human roadblock...

[@sarthsingh3271]

petition to bring back dancing Reece in the intro

[@RMTransit]

I need something to get excited about!

[@ArchOfWinter]

While on the topic of double decker buses, I would love to hear your take on different designs (internal and external) of various bus brands, models, and regional/company variations. As well as design evolutions. The Volvo and Alexander Dennis use in Hong Kong are very well designed.

[@davidty2006]

Yeah Alexander Dennis is well basically one of the kings of busses.... Although in britain theres also Wrightbus that is the main competition against Dennis. And before them it was Leyland.

[@charlesmadre5568]

@@davidty2006 I remember growing up when most of Hong Kong's bus fleet were Leylands. Running up to the front row on the top deck and then looking down the periscope to peek at the driver was always a highlight.

[@sunnyguan716]

My local transit agency, Foothill Transit, got double deckers recently and people who are just casual riders were enthusiastic on the new buses unlike on the artics usually used. They are really comfortable!

[@toranshaw4029]

Nice to see the 607, as used to ride that to and from work in the upper deck... sitting as close to the front as I could! 🙂

[@anindrapratama]

double decker intercity coaches are trending here in Indonesia meanwhile transit use has ended around the 90’s.

[@lillywho]

In Berlin they're kind of dying out as the BVG are starting to decommission their MAN custom made DL busses en masse. Though we've been getting a few more specimen of the new model built by Dennis.

[@CaptainM792]

I wonder why BVG didn’t invest in the newer MAN A95 DD bus instead of models built by Dennis?🧐

[@yosolo5797]

I've been born and raised with double deckers all over the UK, yet I still get a kick out of sitting up stairs and watching the world go by every once in a while

[@adamcourtenay]

also in London, school aged kids can travel for free so it's not uncommon to see 3-4 double deckers being completely full at the end of a school day, but these routes will be far less busy at other times. you also have to use an oyster/contactless which saves a ton of time. double decker's are just more efficient for traffic so makes the most sense in densely populated cities - plus bus only lanes really speeds up some routes that are full of car traffic

[@SkeledroMan]

There should be more double decker trolley buses. It would put the power wire higher off the ground so more power can be used.

[@RRW359]

Apparently the UK did that until they decided to go irrationally anti-trollybus. There were a couple others around the world but I think there haven't been any in the world for a few decades. Also I don't think it's been done before but remember that one advantage of trolleybus wires is essentially unlimited power without the need to worry about battery/engine weight or fuel/charge. Therefore I have a proposal: ARTICULATED DD trolleybusses.

[@davidty2006]

We did have them. Till the routemaster replace them. Heck theres atleast 1 preserved.

[@davidty2006]

@@RRW359 Better idea. Double decker 2 car tram.

[@SkeledroMan]

@@davidty2006 that is a good idea

[@AndrewLeo_]

As someone who works for a third-party transit-oriented agency with their city's local transit authority, there is one point that I feel you missed. That being the density of the line that would house double-decker buses. The reason that London has so many double-deckers is that there is a high level of density (appx 5,700 people per square kilometer). Most cities in NA don't meet this density level, but those cities that do already have another form of high-capacity transit like light rail or subway/metro. Granted, I can't speak for everyone, but I believe that this would be the only sensible reason as to why this is the case. Now just to make it clear, in no way am I saying that it wont happen, but more so time is a huge barrier as to determining when the green light can be given to start a project with this scale.

[@neolithictransitrevolution427]

That makes sense, but double decker buses generally make the most sense on express style routes with infrequent stops, particularly with a large group destination. So while double deckers don't work great in a neighborhood, I think going from hub to hub they still achieve the necessary denisty from users transfering. But this requires more than simply buying new vehicles you also have to design your system well.

[@joshuasteele3520]

I think this is the first vaguely positive video you've made on buses.

[@neolithictransitrevolution427]

He turned around (finally) on trolley buses the other day, and gave some praise to Brampton Ontario's system. But I also would like to see more positive cover, obviously trains are nicer but if we want to create real North American tranist in the next 20 years even we need to embrace busses

[@kidsea13]

Double-decker buses breed enthusiasm for public transport in people, especially kids; people like the view from the top deck

[@NezumiWorks]

As a fairly tall person (over 190 cm/close to 6'3"), I absolutely hate the double decker buses in Ottawa. There's lots of capacity on the top deck, but the ceiling is much lower, meaning I am forced to stoop significantly. Aside from that, the seats are closer together to add more capacity, meaning they are impossible for a tall individual to sit in comfortably. Leaving the bottom deck, which usually has much *less* seating than a standard bus (space is taken up by the stairs), and therefore it's hard to get a seat at all. It doesn't help that because people aren't allowed on the stairs while the bus is moving, they become a choke point when loading and unloading even aside from the doors. Meaning overall double deckers, at least by the design I've used, are much inferior to longer articulated buses.

[@Enoch916]

I guess it’s because the lower decks are designed mainly for standing with fewer seats as they are built for high capacity.

[@NezumiWorks]

@@Enoch916 The lower deck is very much designed for standing, although part of that is because the stairs to the upper deck take up a good deal of space that would be seating otherwise. It also takes out some of the window space, leaving the lower deck not only lower capacity, but darker as well. It's not a really optimal experience.

[@neolithictransitrevolution427]

I have the same issue, although I still like double decker buses because sitting at the top front is nice. But I can't say how many times I have had to crank my neck to awkwardly stand on the first floor when they are crowded. I regularly just stood in the stair case tbh, no one ever stopped me. One time an old woman made someone get out of thier seat for me lol, that was nice.

[@anthonywong7004]

KZbin is screwing things up yet again, not the first time the video got limited to 360p (and no audio for mobile) Guess they really can't fix their platform

[@RMTransit]

Should be good now!

[@fox2864]

Here in Mexico City we have new Chinese trolleybuses and the new metro trains just acquired are both Spanish and Chinese while the older rolling stock is Mexican made, and our Line 7 of the Metrobús has Low floor, double-deckers produced by Alexander Dennis (British company) and are of type Enviro500 MMC.

[@projectnightfall6882]

As a child that grew up in the UK getting to ride on the front top seats of a double decker was an adventure in itself. Made the journey part of the day out.

[@jn9475]

The comment: “There is no audio” Me: The video itself isn’t available

[@RMTransit]

Oh my, should be good now!

[@wasmic5z]

Copenhagen experimented with double-decker buses some years ago. The experiment lasted several years before they were withdrawn. The problem was that Copenhagen has many low bridges, so it was only a relatively small amount of routes where they were viable. Furthermore, people didn't want to go to the upper deck if they were only going a short distance - instead, they crowded the lower deck, which is smaller than in a regular bus. This meant that double decker buses could only be used for the express lines (the S-Bus network) - but many of those lines also pass low bridges. In the end, it was determined that double-decker buses only made sense for one or two lines, and it wouldn't be practical to go buy such a relatively small fleet of an entirely new bus type. So the remaining few double-deckers were sold off to Sweden. Later on, articulated buses made a comeback and are now in use on both line 2A (a high-frequency bus line, runs every 5 minutes or better) and on line 5C (same type of line as 2A, but with BRT branding despite not being a BRT). Other than those two, Copenhagen only has regular buses (though some are as long as 13.7 meters, which is longer than in most countries).

[@PrograError]

meanwhile in SG, the transport Agency, LTA, started culling all the last remaining bendies to switch to doubles and rigids only. Rumoured reason is due to space savings and interchange space allocation. (for additional context, LTA recently took on an active role similar to TfL in london with all the operator licenses changed to such. the "ownership" of the buses are changed to be under LTA with the buses "leased" to the operator-designate of the package to operate and service for a fee just like TfL. )

[@marcelwiszowaty1751]

On the infrastructure point (i.e. bridges too low) it isn't really a problem here in the UK. It's probably for historical reasons because we had double-decker (horse-drawn) buses *before* we had railways. So rail bridges over roads were originally built high enough anyway in most cases. It is worth noting btw that both NYC and Chicago had fleets of double-deckers back in the day, now long gone... notwithstanding the inevitable sightseeing companies' examples.

[@krob9145]

In the UK they prune the trees on tree lined streets/roads so that there's a 90* angle by the branches. That way the buses have a way cut out for them through the canopy. You know it's time for the trees to be done when you hear the branches scrape past the bus. Upstairs is great to learn the layout of the city. There have been a few accidents with new drivers forgetting the route and going the wrong way under some old low bridges instead of the high bridge routes. That's when the bus would lose it's roof. Thankfully that's rare.

[@chrisjohnson7929]

So that is the origin of those roofless buses they use for sightseeing...

[@reddwarfer999]

@@chrisjohnson7929 I laughed at this but who knows it could almost be true....

[@MrsBifflechips]

I hate this idea that beauty is "extra" and shouldn't be considered because saving money. More people are going to want to use the infrastructure if it's not ugly and uncomfortable, so there will be more respect and less wastage. This anti-beauty attitude is present in more than just public transit and has contributed to a lot of *very* ugly places. And if people have pleasant and beautiful surroundings, their mental health is likely to be better, which is good for everyone.

[@RMTransit]

Oh for sure, but it’s quite common! Even if it’s not helpful!

[@johnwilliams6944]

You haven't covered one basic difference between the UK and the US, the width of the average passenger. Both the seat width and the gangway width on a UK bus is slim even by our standards. Our levels of obesity is some way behind the US but passengers are already complaining about being unable to use the second seat of a pair and being jostled by large individuals moving about on the bus. Your permitted vehicle width may be greater than in the UK but narrow seats are becoming a serious matter. I witnessed a traveller on a crowded train who had been sitting on half a seat who fell when alighting due to the pressure of the seat frame on his muscles during the trip. The train and platform staff took it very seriously.

[@jasonleahy5543]

UK has the highest level of obesity in Europe, I believe that Mexico has the highest rate in the world.

[@nickc8656]

Love the videos. In Sydney Australia. We’ve got the B1 now from Wynyard to Mona vale. The buses (bright yellow double decker buses) run every 5 mins during peak or 15 when it’s slow. Generally speaking I think this is the governments way of putting in a high capacity route for the northern beaches as we don’t have trains for that area. The buses are high frequencies but run as express. Honestly I think it was a great idea and now it provides easy transport to a whole area of the northern suburbs. Plus being on the top deck going over the habour bridge is an amazing view u can’t get with anything else

[@mildlydispleased3221]

Nothing beats the view from the front of the top deck.

[@zaphod4245]

The issue with busses in london now, is that as cycling infrastructure is prioritised seemingly above all else, Bus lanes are being made into cycle lanes, meaning that busses are becoming incredibly slow. Busses in central london are already completely useless and therefore underused because they're so slow. And they are becoming painfully slow in the inner suburbs too. In Chiswick they've removed a bus lane in favour of a cycle lane, which slows busses ofc, but also means that several bus stops have been removed, as there's no way for pedestrians to access them with the cycle lane in the way. While cycling infrastructure isn't necessarily a bad thing, in a dense city like London which already has narrow streets and little space on the surface, building massive cycle lanes which are often massively underused, and in doing so removing bus lanes or even reducing pedestrian space is a big mistake imo. Most Central London journeys are Public transport + walk to the destination. Very few people cycle, so why are we sacrificing space for public transport (bus lanes) and walking to make way for cyclists??

[@AN456d]

It's not cyclists who should be losing space to buses, it's regular cars which should be barred from entering central roads save extreme necessity And remember, the more bikes, the less cars

[@davidty2006]

:/ God dang drivers.. I feel like Kahn should change the laws for bus lanes to allow commerical and emergancy vehicles down them. Then boom you don't need any regular lanes.

[@zaphod4245]

@@AN456d There already are very few private cars in central London. Traffic in the centre of the city is almost entirely busses, taxis and commerical vehicles. But in the suburbs, like chiswick, there just isn't the transport infrastructure to make all journeys by public transport. Going from Putney to Ealing, or from Highgate to Wembley is far easier by car. Buses cant compete because they're so painfully slow, see above, and there are no train lines between these. Yes we should encourage use of public transport, but cars are still necessary for many journeys in this city. Therefore, while we shouldn't be prioritising cars, we still need at least 1 lane each way on all but a few roads. And then we need bus lanes to allow busses to bypass traffic, there is space for this, the issue is we replace the bus lanes with a cycle lane which is never used, and in the process remove the ability of buses to bypass traffic Few people want to cycle up and down hills between highgate and wembley, this isn't amsterdam, the geography and culture here is different. We should focus on providing options people will use, like bus routes between these places which have bus lanes to use, rather than massive cycle lanes that no one uses. I'm not suggesting that we build more or bigger roads, but we shouldn't be destroying them and taking bus space away.

[@AN456d]

@@zaphod4245 I just don't get why you assume that having some roads dedicated entirely to bus traffic or cycling traffic would imply no cars It would just imply more space for those who use public transit or efficient vehicles rather than fossil fuel based private vehicles, who would still have their own lanes And in Amsterdam, the famous strategy of making cars go the long way around actually made car journeys faster as it discouraged people from using their cars and made more people use buses which use priority lanes in main roads It's also crucial to remember that the hill debate has no place in a century where e-bikes are commonplace, of course some might still need to use their car, but it's precisely to make their journeys faster that going the long way around for cars, making buses use priority lanes and giving bikes their own streets is crucial Just look at Hammersmith, taking away jammed infrastructure and making it accessible only to some can and will discourage those who do not really need to drive and provide faster alternatives to those who don't drive

[@RMTransit]

I think a balance is needed, when I was around central London bus congestion was bad, I think some more car space could be freed up

[@jameskerner7782]

Here in the New York, New Jersey metropolitan area as well in other transit cities, transit authorities did away with cushioned seats on the buses and subways because back in the sixties kids would either cut up the seats or throw them out the windows. Because of that, we now have to ride on the hard plastic seats. Only Commuter buses and trains have comfortable seats.

[@leodillon2110]

Great video as always. I am not a fan of double-decker buses within cities along routes with frequent stops (I'm based in Ireland where double-deckers seem to have become the default city bus type). Problem #1: As it's not possible to see what seating availability is like in the upper deck without going up to look, I find myself hanging around on the lower deck, probably standing and getting in the way of other users if I'm only travelling a relatively short number of stops. Going upstairs and scanning the upper deck for an empty seat is a very deliberate action and feels uncomfortable as not only are you looking for empty seats but you are also looking at the people and judging whether or not you would feel safe/comfortable sitting there. If you don't like what you see for whatever reason, you need to turn back and descend the stairs again. Oh look, there's two more people coming up the stairs behind me... On a single deck bus, you can discretely scan for a seat while you walk through the bus and choose where and whether to sit or stand. Problem #2: Lower level of 'social' safety on upper deck. The upper deck is relatively secluded compared to the lower deck and it's usually where you will find those incapable of behaving in a socially acceptable manner (ie: assholes). Some can just be loud and generally ignorant but others can be more threatening. This behaviour can be intimidating and make some passengers feel vulnerable/unsafe. At least on the lower deck there is the presence of the driver, other passengers, exit doors and even people at street level outside the bus to offer an increased perception of security. Problem #3: The stairs on double-deckers are not the most accessible, even for fully able-bodied people. Descending these stairs while carrying bags is not that easy and gets a lot worse if the bus brakes while you are doing so. I also find descending stairs when travelling with young children at best difficult and at worst, stressful and dangerous. Historically our transport systems have been biased towards the male commuter and the needs of those responsible for the day to day care of children (99% women) are not addressed. If cities stopped prioritising private motor vehicles over all other modes of transport within cities then it probably wouldn't be necessary to stack people on top of each other on buses.

[@PixelsInMySoup]

The vast majority of Dublin's bus fleet is double decker. The main reason is because many of the routes are so long that they provide more seating - as opposed to standing - than articulated buses.