Rograkh Silas Renn CEDH deck tech

Grixis Rograkh and Silas Renn are considerd the fasted commander deck in the format. Well we have a lot of data from cEDH tournaments. So let's take a look at what people in thir decks and what winrate they get.
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[@csonidoful]

Please make this a regular series! Data-driven deck building vids are not only interesting but can benefit many players! Selfish plug for Kinnan and Magda cEDH decks next

[@cedhtv]

The plan is to keep making these. I really like the data we can look at and they are fun to make.

[@MrWader76]

Oh my god. Other math people. ❤️

[@DoubleBeast]

6:15 Bolas's Citadel isn't that good 'cause it costs more than Naus, but must be played at sorcery speed and does not immediately feed you 20+ cards. Very easy to get stuck on lands or instants you can't or don't want to play. Citadel pretty much requires you have Divining Top in play. Too cumbersome for such an expensive spell in your library. The Draft Weekend Bolas's Citadel promo looks really cool though. The effect _is_ very attractive because it sounds like it gives you so much control, but it isn't often super effective by itself for the aforementioned reasons.

[@MrWader76]

I found my new favorite channel on KZbin

[@cedhtv]

Then I have to say welcome to the channel!

[@godtiermtg]

Very helpful! I appreciate all of these videos, they put so much into perspective. And it’s so clear that you care about statistical integrity.

[@calebwilliams8822]

These statistics videos are great, I'd love to see one about the first sliver or Tiamat decks using the food chain combo

[@cedhtv]

Saddly the first sliver dosen't have much data on it. only 4 entrys. cEDH is small. So looking at data on smaller commanders don't give much saddly.

[@CommanderMastersOficial]

Being wantig to build this deck for a while. Thx for the info!

[@cedhtv]

Your welcome!

[@intention21]

Deadly rollick Talion, the kindly lord Are these high win rates for rog si?

[@korisak4339]

Didn't expect the rogsi deck have under average win rate

[@VictorEmnm]

This is a cool concept. A couple of thoughts: - I think you should normalize the +/-% of win rate in addition to showing a winrate. For example, a specific card that appear has a 30% winrate - that's 10% higher than the average deck at 20% WR. - I think you're on to something when comparing certain categories of cards (e.g., wincons vs wincons, tutors vs tutors). - Another concept is to compare the distribution of card types and comparing the win decks. For example, a deck that run 10 tutors over the average 8 are more likely to win and make top 16. - Are you collecting this data by hand?

[@cedhtv]

1) You mean showcase the difference? Like a plus minus diufference to the average? 2) ? 3) I think I kinda do that. I have a stable diagram thatshowcase howmany tutors decks play and the winrate from that potentially. Or something of the sort. I mostly use it to see if all the decks are different. 4) Yes. Copy past moxfield decklist more or less.

[@christopherwang7967]

Do you think it would be worth approaching eminence and Moxfield to automate this data collection process? From a programming perspective it would be trivial to do

[@cedhtv]

I have asked. Its complicated. But it works at its current state.

[@alanstern6930]

Would you please post the whole stats(aside from lands of course) list in the comments/description? I would like to go through and do a bunch of tweaks/experiments

[@cedhtv]

I saddly don't have the stats for this commander pair anymore. I have started doing this in future videos. Is theer anything you would like to see specifik? Like a card or so. I can revisit the stats or shall I say bring them back up again but not all of them.

[@iraingaming]

Great video ! Anyway is it possible to just copy and paste the statistics data and pin the comment ? Would be really great if can just look through one by one ourselves. You have explained clearly and really well !

[@cedhtv]

You mean the TEXT I showcased? Dockside Extortionist: 22.20% Polluted Delta: 22.20% Brain Freeze: 22.20% Expedition Map: 33.33% Jeweled Amulet: 33.33% Blood Crypt: 22.17% Morphic Pool: 17.69% Deflecting Swat: 22.20% Cursed Totem: 33.33% Mox Diamond: 22.40% Paradise Mantle: 22.42% Jeweled Lotus: 11.11% Cerebral Vortex: 0.00% Warrior's Oath: 21.68% Filter Out: 0.00% Echo of Eons: 0.00% Snap: 22.25% Culling the Weak: 22.20% Wooded Foothills: 22.24% Badlands: 22.62% Scheming Symmetry: 0.00% Lightning Bolt: 0.00% Demonic Bargain: 20.00% Necropotence: 21.92% Mana Drain: 34.81% Crystal Vein: 22.62% Ornithopter: 33.33% Volcanic Island: 22.62% Toxic Deluge: 20.00% Mox Opal: 22.20% Cyclonic Rift: 21.28% Retraction Helix: 0.00% Lotus Petal: 22.20% The One Ring: 27.90% Arid Mesa: 22.01% Dauthi Voidwalker: 22.14% Exotic Orchard: 17.48% Wishclaw Talisman: 22.20% Cephalid Coliseum: 28.57% Opposition Agent: 21.67% Misty Rainforest: 22.62% Marsh Flats: 22.01% Force of Will: 22.09% Spell Pierce: 18.21% Dress Down: 22.22% Deadly Rollick: 22.13% Defense Grid: 21.96% River of Tears: 0.00% March of Swirling Mist: 26.67% Grim Tutor: 22.87% Forbidden Orchard: 19.88% Flusterstorm: 22.20% Timetwister: 21.81% Rapid Hybridization: 33.33% Conqueror's Flail: 29.31% Simian Spirit Guide: 22.20% Mana Vault: 22.20% Orcish Bowmasters: 25.94% Arcane Signet: 22.20% Hydroblast: 24.58% Thran Quarry: 40.00% Brainstorm: 20.85% Guild Artisan: 17.14% Spell Snare: 42.86% Gilded Drake: 0.00% Red Elemental Blast: 21.99% Blue Elemental Blast: 0.00% Mount Doom: 28.78% Grim Monolith: 22.93% Phyrexian Tower: 22.22% Wheel of Fortune: 22.30% Gitaxian Probe: 20.87% Infernal Tutor: 14.29% Miscast: 13.97% Luxury Suite: 22.95% Pyroblast: 22.30% Ponder: 33.33% Borne Upon a Wind: 25.37% Fiery Islet: 0.00% Moonsnare Prototype: 21.30% Slaughter Pact: 22.67% Silas Renn, Seeker Adept: 22.20% Jeska's Will: 22.20% Emergence Zone: 25.00% Spire of Industry: 29.17% Steam Vents: 22.20% Fierce Guardianship: 22.20% Tarnished Citadel: 0.00% Misdirection: 20.00% Gemstone Caverns: 22.20% Entomb: 0.00% Talisman of Dominance: 22.05% Abrade: 33.75% Dark Ritual: 22.20% Demonic Tutor: 22.20% Diabolic Intent: 22.20% Command Tower: 22.20% Boseiju, Who Shelters All: 33.33% Phantasmal Image: 21.67% Rain of Filth: 36.11% Blackcleave Cliffs: 19.84% Dispel: 21.43% Lion's Eye Diamond: 22.40% Cabal Ritual: 22.20% Gamble: 22.20% Ancient Tomb: 22.05% Watery Grave: 22.20% An Offer You Can't Refuse: 23.14% Pongify: 33.33% City of Brass: 21.91% Day's Undoing: 11.33% Talisman of Indulgence: 21.95% Rite of Flame: 22.20% Chrome Mox: 22.20% Faithless Looting: 40.00% Imperial Seal: 22.40% Chain of Vapor: 22.20% Narset, Parter of Veils: 24.32% Birgi, God of Storytelling: 22.82% Beseech the Mirror: 0.00% Sunken Ruins: 28.57% Mystical Tutor: 22.20% Mana Crypt: 22.20% Notion Thief: 20.91% Mountain: 0.00% Pact of Negation: 22.20% Fellwar Stone: 17.78% Verdant Catacombs: 22.22% Bolas's Citadel: 17.96% Mana Confluence: 22.51% Swan Song: 22.20% Repeal: 21.43% Strike It Rich: 23.81% Mental Misstep: 22.20% Rhystic Study: 22.09% Praetor's Grasp: 22.51% Mindbreak Trap: 22.15% Bloodstained Mire: 22.03% The Mycosynth Gardens: 0.00% Peer into the Abyss: 15.71% Grinding Station: 32.22% Underworld Breach: 22.20% Training Center: 25.82% Lim-Dûl's Vault: 20.83% Ad Nauseam: 22.20% Darkslick Shores: 19.84% Daze: 20.83% Reflecting Pool: 40.00% Thassa's Oracle: 22.20% Concerted Defense: 25.14% Dragon's Rage Channeler: 33.33% Island: 22.40% Ragavan, Nimble Pilferer: 22.40% Alchemist's Retrieval: 33.33% Underground River: 20.00% Scalding Tarn: 22.20% Tainted Pact: 22.20% Swamp: 21.43% Rushing River: 30.20% Force of Negation: 22.14% Sol Ring: 22.20% Last Chance: 21.38% Preordain: 33.33% Counterspell: 28.57% Massacre: 20.00% Mystic Remora: 22.09% Blood Pet: 33.33% Faerie Mastermind: 19.84% Transmute Artifact: 17.59% Void Snare: 20.00% Infernal Plunge: 25.49% Dark Petition: 12.50% Final Fortune: 22.43% Gemstone Mine: 20.68% Springleaf Drum: 22.20% Otawara, Soaring City: 22.22% City of Traitors: 23.71% Vampiric Tutor: 22.20% Mnemonic Betrayal: 22.32% Urza's Saga: 0.00% Wheel of Misfortune: 22.27% Yawgmoth's Will: 22.21% Rograkh, Son of Rohgahh: 22.20% Mox Amber: 22.20% Demonic Consultation: 22.20% Windfall: 22.09% Dramatic Reversal: 34.35% Flooded Strand: 22.62% Talisman of Creativity: 22.11% Winds of Rebuke: 30.00% Jace, the Perfected Mind: 0.00% Underground Sea: 22.62% Narset's Reversal: 0.00%

[@iraingaming]

Thanks !! Really appreciate it ! 💯

[@MasterDecoy1W]

I feel like you have too many caveats in these videos. Maybe make a playlist for them and start it with an overview video that puts all the disclaimers on the table so you can cut that fat and focus on pure information in the deck videos. The same goes for the explanations of each graph type. Also maybe put the date you made the video in the title, so someone searching can easily determine if the data is too old to be useful to them (or in the case that you revisit a specific deck, which one is newer).

[@cedhtv]

Yeah I have been thinking about an introduction that is fast that answers all the "What you see on screen stuff"

[@KingSkinny-ww2pl]

I noticed the % increase for Mox Diamond and the true duals were very minimal, considering what they cost, but i couldnt see LED while you were scrolling at the end, could we get stats for Lion's Eye Diamond? I assume 22.40 as it would be in every breach brainfreeze deck

[@kennethmurray9003]

Is there a way to exclude the weaker players decks? Players that have never advanced or have a very low win rate? I wonder if this would have an impact on the stats

[@cedhtv]

It dose have an inpact. I have plans to look at some of the best players in the future. Like trying to see if I can find the player with the best average winrate.

[@justinw.anisman6154]

Question about the statistics. Aren't there cases where a card is good because it turns a loss into a win. So it might have a terrible win rate overall but has a huge effect when you are losing. Statistics focusing on win rate tend to diminish the value of such a card.

[@cedhtv]

Shoulden't that card have a good winrate in this case?

[@justinw.anisman6154]

@@cedhtv not necessarily. Let's say a deck has a win rate of 25% with the card, and 20% without the card. But when the card is played (because it's only played in a losing situation) it has only a 5% win rate.

[@tonyvr9375]

Love this kind of videos, can You make a yuriko video?

[@cedhtv]

That is the plan. I don't know when I will get there. I am doing them one at the time.

[@bobthor9647]

Awesome

[@albertovelasco8910]

Good video!

[@cedhtv]

Thank you!

[@albertovelasco8910]

I didnt understand what ritual manarocks means (chain of vapor explaination) (wishclaw?)

[@cedhtv]

Sol ring cost 1 mana. But generats 2 mana. So you gain mana from casting it. So Ritual mana rock. Mana crypt and mana vault the same.

[@albertovelasco8910]

@@cedhtv Thanks a lot, now i understand!

[@brenocampos8961]

Please Make a Krarkashima statistics video with Ken Bauman

[@cedhtv]

Oh like in invite would love it. Hummm. I think I will text him.

[@jamiecruz4421]

I'm curious about the statistics for Lim-Dûl's Vault.

[@cedhtv]

It was at 17 % so not recommended. Also when I look at Lim-Dûl's Vault in generall on other commanders it is also low. So don't do it.

[@danop7981]

How do you make these specific single card statistics? And do you have it for the following cards in RogSi: - Otawara, Soaring City - City of Traitors - Orcish Bowmasters - Ledger Shredder Thanks :)

[@cedhtv]

Excel and calculators more or less. Well I do collect all the decklist and cards manully from the EDH TOP 16 and moxfield. And yes I do have info on the cards your asking for. Otawara soring city: Played by 96% So close to an auto include. City of traitors: Played by 83 % of the decks and it has a 24% winrate so that is more then the awerage. So play it. Orchis bowmaster: Not played by everyone. It is only in 30% of the decks. But it is also a new card so. But it has a 26,7% winrate so it is doing a good job in the deck so fare. Ledger shredder: 0% of the decks played it. I actually have statistics for this card on other decks. Like Tivit. I don't remeber the details but the card is not that good according to statistics.

[@danop7981]

Thanks for making these statistics. Would be nice if edhtop16 would add a similar feature on their site

[@WolfLink64]

How easy is it to gather this kind of data yourself? The individual card inclusion rates and win percentage i mean. I wanna see if Yuriko is better as an Ad Naus deck or a high mana value deck.

[@cedhtv]

The plan is to look into Yuriko eventually. Could be the next one I think. Not that hard. I collect the data and set it into parameters. a lot is automated ... now. But there is still some work to it.

[@WolfLink64]

Oh, cool. Well, i think the video would be best divided into two parts. Inclusion rate/win rate of cards included with ad naus and the rates in of cards in decks without ad naus.

[@WolfLink64]

*rates of cards in decks without ad naus

[@Iamtidal]

Fast deck

[@TheFallenA]

Another thassa combo 😤

[@MrTiddles69]

Please do krrik again with a larger sample size?🎉

[@cedhtv]

Once it gets a lerger sample size. I do update kriik all the time. But not that many play it like najeela.

[@MrTiddles69]

Yes nothing will ever compare to najeela. I wonder if you could get some more stats for krrik off a diff site? 🤔