ROGUE: D&D 5.24 Damage is MENTAL 2024 Player's Handbook

[@TreantmonksTemple]

Correction: (Note, this does not change the 2024 Rogue damage, just the assassin build damage at higher level) It has been pointed out that Great Weapon Master requires the attack action to do the extra damage, so it wouldn't work with the magic action to cast True Strike.

[@Gafizal1]

Did you run mubers using nick and vex dual wield?

[@flaviovasconcellos6009]

I think the way to go for the rogue is crossbow expert. Perma advantage from vex and steady aim, you don't have to dip (if we get to 20 having an auto crit per short rest makes that one nuke at the start even crazier) , can focus on dex from the start and since the extra attack adds dex to damage it's comparable to true strike. It's also flexible because you can either be at range or melee (shortsword + hand crossbow) and get defensive duelist for good AC and sentinel for sneaks out of you turn (good to have 2 solid options for your reaction). I'd go crossbow expert at 4, sharpshooter at 8 (for extra range and to ignore cover), defensive duelist at 10 and sentinel at 12.

[@sixtiesspiderman6268]

I'm actually really excited for the new True Strike, specifically on Clerics. I think it does a LOT toward making them a lot better in melee, especially since the Topple weapon mastery will cue off of their Wisdom when using True Strike (perhaps dip Ranger to grab weapon masteries and Ensnaring Strike to apply after they go prone from Topple). Bringing back Arcana cleric for 2024 rules probably benefits the most, because now it gets heavy armor and melee weapons, and with True Strike as a Cleric cantrip, you can have Potent Spellcasting benefits to True Strike to constantly regenerate THP in melee at high levels.

[@adriangoetz5108]

Just starting the video but... Talking about how Great Weapon Master and True Strike interplay on an Assassin feels like maybe we've gone too far.

[@jakewarman7277]

​@@sixtiesspiderman6268 I agree! The melee cleric really is an icon but the stats are hard to build for, why can't the cleric slap you with actual wisdom lol

[@TaylorHodgsonScott]

Gosh your excitement over lockstep DPR is so infectious! Thank you for this video, it fills my heart with roguish glee.

[@cascadianone]

I really wish we could see two base class builds (ranged and melee) without using True Strike, and then compare these optimized versions with it. Not because I think Chris is wrong about needing True Strike to be impressive, but just because I want to see what "stock" non-optimized rogues are capable of. Like I don't have enough of a baseline understanding of the new rogue yet. And if stock rogue really sucks, then I need to know exactly how bad so i can houserule it or steer new players away from it. Anyway, good stuff as always, thank you!

[@SortKaffe]

Rogue is much more fun and powerful than Barbarian and Fighter _outside of combat,_ so no reason to steer anyone away from it just because they do a little less DPR.

[@TreantmonksTemple]

Rogue without TS is basically the 2014 rogue for damage. Very close.

[@xolotltolox7626]

​@@TreantmonksTempleso they did nothing to fix it. Wonderful This company istg...

[@ryanrindler1715]

Even with things like nick and the dual wielder feet? You have the figure out how to be in melee without using cunning action all the time but that's three attacks with sneak attack

[@SavageGreywolf]

Rogue does not 'really suck' and never has.

[@TheWanderersWit]

While I get that this is an easyish optimization pathing, it not being a part of Rogues as an innate part of their class makes me mentally push back at True Strike as a justification for not finding them to be the weakest class. Especially because if you want to, for instance, play a Soul Knife and use the inherent subclass features then True Strike wouldn't apply. Stealing the lunch from other classes, regardless of how easy and apropos, I don't feel like changes the Rogue's standing as a whole. Especially not when it makes you counterintuitively not want to touch their primary stat until levels beyond which most campaigns go. It's really nice to see that there are opportunities for Rogue's to excel and be fairly strong in 5eR though, and I'm really glad you found solid ways to help them keep up.

[@markcronan]

it's not a meaningful boost to damage. I really don't get why he's going this route. There are better uses for that bonus action than this. It's just 1d6 more damage for half the levels - you can get that same boost so many different ways which make more sense.

[@TreantmonksTemple]

I mean, you could say of any class "I don't want to use the optimal option" and it will be weaker. That's not really what I'm exploring with these videos.

[@bobon123]

@@TreantmonksTemple I understand, but there are different degrees of optimal. If I was upset because a fighter with dagger and shield was doing less damage than with a long sword, your comment would be well deserved: your choice not to play optimally. But for a rogue to take True Strike cannot be the _only_ viable choice, without which you are unable to have the same impact on the game of other classes. Because it is a very strong limitation to the characterization of my rogue: not all rogues are casters, it is quite a niche kind of rogue. Your video showed that the additional d6s make it perfectly balanced. I am tempted to just add the additional d6 to the rogue sneak attack in my game, even with physical attacks if they were not using true strike. True strike would become useful only to change stat and damage type, similar to Shillelagh.

[@ComradeVenus]

Yeah it kinda stinks that you're forced to take a spell from another class and invest in intelligence instead of focusing solely on dexterity. It works well with arcane trickster but isn't great with any other subclass (and it's actively counter-intuitive with soul knife) This damage boost at level 5, 11, and 17 should have been apart of the base class

[@fortunatus1]

@@bobon123 Interesting. I think I'd rather accomplish that with a personalized magic item for the Rogue rather than a change to the rule set.

[@jasonlyddieth1231]

Thanks for the great video, Chris. I just had a play around with your True Strike / Rogue build. I compared it to my first 2024 Rogue build: Swashbuckler (with 2024 base Rogue), with a 1 Level Fighter dip for Two Weapon Fighting Style, the Charger Feat and short sword (vex) scimitar (nick) combo. I reckon up to level 11 it does better damage and probably beyond. You can reliably get a Charger attack on your Nick attack doing D6 + D8 + 5. Plus you can really optimize around Dex for AC. I also threw in Sentinel and Mage Slayer. Its a banger of a build. With Withdraw or Cunning Action you could pretty much do the Nick / Charger combo with any Rogue. I'm really thinking that people are still underestimating how good the 2024 Feats and Weapon Masteries work with the Rogue. Looking forward to seeing future builds.

[@Rubycule]

I feel like you should have included the calculation for a primary dex build without true strike. That's what the rogue is supposed to be for most people.

[@cmccbuilds8229]

What it’s “supposed to be” isn’t what it is anymore.

[@SeldonnHari]

I think this optimization requires the rogue to be a step away from the core fantasy of what rogue players are looking for. It's like if the base optimization build for a fighter required you to take a level in bard but nothing about your character concept involved music or bardic-ness. A build with true strike undermines the rogue fantasy.

[@kedraroth]

Exactly.

[@BinxyBrown]

​​@@SeldonnHariI actually don't think that's true, if true strike used the dex stat to attack with i think it would line up 100% almost. Rogues are all about doing 1 big fun attack and being good at skills and this rogue is still basically as good at both of those things. I disagree with the fighter dip because I actually agree with you that I don't want my rogue wearing half plate. The melee rogue can somewhat get around this by using booming blade instead

[@darklight9450]

@@BinxyBrown the problem with that is booming blade is dm dependent. As it is not a cantrip in dnd 2024. Even if they say sure we can allow booming blade ,they have to allow the wizard to learn the cantrip since it’s optional. As magic innate in 2024 only let’s you choice cleric,Druid,Wizard cantrip. Wizard is the only class that can learn booming blade out of those choices.

[@WorldOfAcala]

Hey Chris! I'd love to see the numbers for the 2024 Rogue without True Strike as I can see a lot of players not wanting to rely on it.

[@jelte3754]

I am curious about that too! Seeing I still need to convince my DM 5.24 is acceptable, and not too powergamey😄

[@elementzero3379]

​@@jelte3754 I've been seeing this mentality a lot among DM communities. It annoys me a bit, but I understand their concerns. I'm hoping the new MM will be packed with awesome creatures that assuage their concerns, not to mention a new paradigm that 3PP will use to create even better monsters.

[@plannedtuna8293]

@@jelte3754 I don’t think 5.24 is nearly as powergamey as 5e. No 1 level Cleric / Sorc / Warlock (hexblade) dips giving subclasses, no more broken conjure animals / animate objects / etc, no paladins dumping multiple smites into a boss in one turn, no human / custom lineage getting strong feats at level 1….the list goes on. It’s really just that martials got better in 5.24, which I consider a positive (and this is as someone who almost always gravitates towards casters). If your DM considers martials getting stronger to be powergamey then you’re probably out of luck.

[@Adurnis]

If you look at the 2014 rogue, it’s gonna be fairly close to that.

[@markcronan]

@@Adurnis naw. you can pretty easily make this same rogue damage without true strike. I mean, Chris did with 2014!

[@yannlimarodrigues]

I understand your points in this video, but I don't feel this can be considered a baseline rogue. To me it makes the discussion about baseline damage a bit clouded. You already said the warlock baseline sees no changes to 2024, and in this video it is compared to a niche rogue build focusing in Int and a cantrip. Even if it is fairly easy to take this cantrip, it still directs the build to only one of the subclasses of rogue, the only that deals with magic. As others have pointed out, it makes another subclass nonviable (soulknife). Interesting build, an optimized arcane trickster for me, but in a discussion of baseline damage and rogue status in 2024 I think it doesn't contribute that much.

[@darklight9450]

Yeah also having the rouge subclass build be multi-class with level 1 fighter dip is not fair for comparison with a pure rogue. Granted this video did show us that the bace rogue with the attack action needs a cantrip scaling in damage. With 1d6 at level 5 2d6 level 11 level 17 3d6.

[@markcronan]

I agree. This is, so far, the only base class video where I ardently disagree with the entire base assumption made. No cunning action? No cunning strike? No meaningful weapon mastery use? No anything rogue-like other than stand there and shoot a crossbow? That's not a baseline rogue.

[@darklight9450]

​@@markcronan Weapon mastery only happens on the attack action. meaning no true strike. Tm made the math assuming your bonus action is giving you advantage. Cunning strike only lowers your damage Baseline rogue as the level 5 takes one sneak attack dice for advantage next melee attack. Witch is equal damage since 1d6=1d6 for a better chance to do 1d6. if this not true such as magic weapons we can never assume that

[@darklight9450]

@@markcronan The TrueStrike build of rogue does more damage at higher tiers of play than rogue with nick. as you only add 1d6 if you hit so after level 1d6vs2d6. Then at level 17 1d6 vs 3d6. 1d6 is the nick property. Granted in reality your hit chance in higher with nick since you have 3 attack rolls to try to get sneak attack one of them being the attack with advantage.

[@cconnorss]

C’mon 100k subs!!! Your content should have you over a million, but we got to hit milestones as they come! Thank you for all these quality vids my man!

[@buraeen5735]

These videos have been great. Fascinating to see the classes lined up on these charts side by side for comparison.

[@Indigo1559]

Personally, I use two baselines: Sword and Board Champion Fighter, and EBAB+Hex on a Warlock. I don't know how much I need to beat those baselines by to be considered fully optimized, but as long as I can beat both of them then the build is worth me considering. Both are meant to be brain off ways to put out enough damage to carry your own weight. We'll also have to see what the DMs Guide says the standard adventuring day is, but i generally consider 2 combats per rest, 4 turns per combat, and 2 short rests per long rest. In other words, 8 turns of combat, short rest, 8 turns of combat, short rest, 8 turns of combat, long rest.

[@chrisramsay8795]

i feel like, since tashas the baseline of warlocks needs to include spirit shroud change at level 5 over hex, specially since its upcast scaling with your warlock slots at level 9

[@garion046]

What does the Champion add to your consideration as a baseline? Wouldn't the warlock outpace it at every level?

[@chrisramsay8795]

@@garion046 it's probably using it as baseline martial in the sense that it doesn't rely on any resource management while getting decent scaling from the fighter extra attacks and the extra feats to get noticeable damage bumps. Specially with how gwm works now been you don't have to do weird AC checks to compare optimized damage since no -5 to hit.

[@elementzero3379]

The particulars of this build couldn't me more timely for me. I've been a bit obsessed with Drakkenheim, of late, having recently discovered how awesome the setting is. One build I'd been weighing was an Intelligence-primary Arcane Trickster, using True Strike as a major tool. I hadn't done any math on it, yet, and now I don't have to rush. It's amazing how much True Strike has improved. It's gone from embarrassingly bad to really useful for a variety of characters.

[@kbeazy_3050]

About to start DMing Drakkenheim. obsessed as well

[@elementzero3379]

@@kbeazy_3050 That's awesome. I hope you and your players have a blast.

[@Miggy19779]

Dungeons of Drakkenheim is really awesome. Easily better designed and written than any official d&d adventure to date.

[@bunbunkitten]

I love how True Strike (and the other weapon cantrips) now enable a variety of Rogue builds (because Rogue only worrying about the one attack actually works for this). That said, I'm running a Drakkenheim game right now... Do note that as True Strike builds prioritize a stat other than Dex, their AC is a little worse than the standard Rogue's, and many monsters can cause status effects on a hit. Being at distance only does so much, and in actual play, your Rogue has to move sometimes (and only Assassin9 can move while Steady Aim-ing).

[@elementzero3379]

@@bunbunkitten The AC wouldn't be a problem because of a houserule we use combined with that level in Fighter. We have historical arms and armor enthusiasts, including me, at the table. Armor is usually more common and easier to access at our table. We use Constitution in lieu of Strength scores for armor requisites. This means that a Fighter/Rogue will end up in plate armor at our table. I sometimes have to remind myself about our houserules. We don't use lots of them, but there are a few. EDIT: I love the dangerous monsters of Drakkenheim. Contamination is not something you can ignore or easily shake, and even low-level monsters can contaminate.

[@arbarzh]

My boy Chris here, grinding for 100K subs. Hope you'll reach it soon. So much deserved !

[@pallen2645]

I just can't get behind True Strike as the rogue staple. Not when it locks out the use of the light weapon property, which requires the Attack action. With a vex weapon in one hand and a nick weapon in the other, you have both a source of advantage and you have another attack, all while keeping your bonus action available for cunning actions or whatever else. If we're going all-in, we get Crossbow Expert and we get Dual Wielder for a total of 3 attacks (2 hand crossbow attacks plus a thrown dagger) 2d6+2Dex+1d4 damage (19.5 avg) and 3 chances to land our sneak attack. All of which comes online by level 8, while True Strike is doing 1d10+Int+1d6 (14 avg) at the same level, with only one chance to sneak attack. True Strike will eventually get up to 1d10+Int+3d6 (21 avg) by level 17, pulling a bit ahead, but I suspect that applying the dual-wielder's superior chances of landing a sneak attack erase that benefit until level 18 where the Boon of Combat Prowess makes hit/miss calculations irrelevant. AND by focusing on Dex your AC and initiative bonus stays where it should be.

[@jonathanpickles2946]

So all a rogue needs is an extra D6 sneak attack per tier after the first that doesn't stack with True Strike. Hmm. The stand in one spot & shoot build is soul crushingly dull to play though. Aka why Sharpshooter is the worst (not least powerful) feat.

[@crossroads1112]

If you get a mount somehow the build could be more interesting to play

[@blakereid5785]

Ive been doing that for years. Gave my rogue players +1d6 at LVLs 5,11,17, and 20 rogue LVLs during traditional combat. Their damage never quite kept up with the deadliest martials, but it doesn’t need to, IMO. I’ll hold off on doing that for 2024, for now, but we’ll see. I don’t use regular monster HP for helpless targets either. Its more of a skill challenge, combat HP and skill challenges aren’t friends in D&D.

[@darklight9450]

Just make the 3d6 damage only trigger using the attack action and non the cantrips will stack and only for the first attack.

[@aimerw]

Another assumption that was made with the 2024 build that isn't mentioned and is pretty huge is that the Rogue is able to stand still for the entire combat for Steady Aim. Without Steady Aim the DPR drops significant, and is also very unreliable. This matters, because I would say an extra D6 per tier is not just the only thing Rogue needs in that case. Also, the Assassin build which was highlighted to keep up with a... Monk... is invalid, so consider that base class probably needs even more than that. All this without even considering dropping damage for Cunning Strike (probably the reason to play the class in the first place). Personally, I would just double Sneak Attack dice.

[@blakereid5785]

@@aimerw if sneak atk were 1/round, then 2x dice wouldn’t be crazy. It would bring them just shy of optimized builds but without any work. Me and my players don’t think being a combat monster is essential to the Rogues identity, though. I would have them excel more in an unfair fight. Surprise, incapacitation, blind, restrained, unconscious, things like that. I’d see Rogues excel in unfairness, and fall behind in a fair fight. When all players have to perform the same in most tasks, they lose their role and identity. Numerical balance is a trap in a coop game, IMO. One that WoTC has very much fallen for.

[@ogrejehosephatt37]

I sure dislike that True Strike is such a necessary choice for Rogue.

[@3558]

True Strike is absolutely not a necessary choice for Rogue, even in an optimized build. First of all Rogue can go in melee. They are around as tanky as monk (same hit point dice, around the same AC, evasion at level 7) and if needed you can make them tankier with the Tough origin feat or with some other way. If you play melee Rogue then True Strike is very much a bad idea since you will miss on both extra attack and weapon mastery. You could potentially dual wield a Shortsword (Vex) and a Scimitar (Nick) with the dual wielder feat for potentially 3 attack per turn (more consistent Sneak Attack). You could also take the Sentinel feat on a melee build for more sneak attack each round. A weakness of a True Strike build compared to a pure dex one is that it’s MADer. You alternate between raising dex (AC and core skills) and int (dmg). A Dex build will probably reach 20 earlier. That with the fact that True Strike is an increase of dpr of only around 3 at level 5, 6 at level 11 and 10 at level 17. The gap is really not that large (at least before level 17). And you could have invested in other interesting stats at character creation like 16 constitution or some charisma. You want an optimized Rogue that is not a True Trike Intelligence. Why not make the rogue the face of the party. Rogue as the potential to be one of the best face in the game (with Bard) at only 14 charisma. Take expertise in deception, intimidation, persuasion and stealth and with Reliable Talent you have one mean face character. You could play an charismatic assassin for the Masterful Mimicry and take the actor perk. (I just realised that if you play a high elf you can choose charisma as the spellcasting ability for True Strike so you could theatrically go all in on charisma). In my opinion the one build where True Strike make perfect sense for Rogue is Arcane Trickster with range weapon.

[@ogrejehosephatt37]

@@3558 But why would you go melee when True Strike ranged attacks make you so much more effective to your party?

[@3558]

@@ogrejehosephatt37 Because as I said the statement “when True Strike ranged attacks make you so much more effective to your party” is very much wrong (my opinion but here’s why). An advantage of melee is that you can for example proc more Sneack Attack per round with the Sentinel feat (possibly way more dpr). An other one is being more reliable in procking a Sneack Attack on your round. Also a Rogue doesn’t have to choose between being a melee or ranged one if you just go dex as it doesn’t have access to fighting style (at least with no multiclass). And for feats just take both Sentinel and Sharpshooter (the Rogue can afford it) and equip the best weapon in any situation. The only thing a True Strike build provide the Rogue is a little more dpr. Around a increase of 3 dpr at level 5, 6 at level 11 and 10 at level 17. It’s around a 15% increase dpr compared to a dex ranged build. The thing is, going True Strike is very much not free. You have to pay a big opportunity cost for this 15% dmg increase at range (investing so much on Intelligence). A non True Strike Rogue could : - reach dex 20 faster (more damage, AC, and better skills), it’s less MAD, - easily invest in constitution or even the Tough feat for more tankiness (16 constitution instead of 14 is around 13% more health for a Rogue), - taking others good feats (skilled, actor, piercer…), - investing more in charisma to make a face rogue or in wisdom to increase the most important saving throw. So no, going True Strike is far from being always better that just a dex one and in my opinion only make sense when going Arcane Trickster (a 20 int Suggestion with Magical Ambush is just nasty). Also Rogue being not as good in combat as a Monk is normal and ok considering that a Rogue absolutely destroy Monk in utility outside of combat. Same thing as Bard with Sorcerer and not everyone is saying that Bard is shitty. (I’m actually happy you replied because I thought my little rant would have been seen by strictly no one.)

[@ogrejehosephatt37]

@@3558 I appreciate your effort. What you say is interesting, but I'd need to see it on a graph for it to really click for me. Thanks. (I was on the fence about saying this, until I got to the but that you appreciated my response, haha)

[@jordanprice6457]

I LOVE these kinds of videos! I’m sure there are a lot of work, Chris, but no one else does this kind of stuff. The graphs are so helpful, and I really appreciate all of the work you put in to show us how things actually shake out.

[@Red13aron]

It might be minor, but you do sacrifice your Cunning Strike DC as well as your Initiative, AC, Stealth bonus by focusing Int. That being said you'll easily catch up by level 12 with 1 Mental Stat feat, and an initial stat distribution of 17 Int or Wis or Cha, and 16 Dex.

[@minivergur]

Very interesting! Opens a lot of doors flavor wise, but I suppose it also closes a lot of doors as well. It feels pretty weird being practically forced to do magic

[@Magnushamann]

"Come - let's make martials interesting... by making magic obligatory" :)

[@johnoliverforprimeminister8867]

A Thief Rogue, with a single level multiclass in a caster class with True Strike, can cheaply craft a cantrip Scroll of True Strike; using the scroll as a bonus action and using its Action to Ready an Attack or to cast True Strike again (better option) on another turn, it can easily Double Dip on Sneak Attack. In 2014 there where tactics and multiclass to do this, but now for a Thief it is extremely easy and it can do this with both a melee or ranged weapon.

[@johngleeman8347]

Would you have a way to have advantage on the off-turn attack? I suppose you would need an engaged ally allowing SA and your shot would just have less accuracy. Still well worth the cost for the scroll.

[@robf88]

Why do you have to multiclass? MI wizard? Be a high elf?

[@johnoliverforprimeminister8867]

@@johngleeman8347 With the Vex mastery. You could go with a ShortSword for melee or Hand Crossbow for ranged option.

[@johnoliverforprimeminister8867]

@@robf88 Its a bit stupid, but the rule states "A Spell Scroll (Cantrip) is a magic item that bears the words of a cantrip, determined by the scroll's creator. If the spell is on your class's spell list, you can read the scroll and cast the spell using its normal casting time and without providing any Material components." So you need to have True Strike on your class spell list, and with Thief Rogue you don't have one.

[@themorganrobertson]

@@johnoliverforprimeminister8867 You are correct...however you CAN still do this at 13th level, when they get Use Magic Device

[@shetoldmeto]

I created a Human Arcane Trickster for my upcoming campaign about a week or so ago. I saw True Strike looked so good for a rogue. I ended up designing him as a monster hunter style of character with both the Sage background for Wizard spells and the Magic Initiate Cleric for the human selection. I ended up with a ranged True Strike build that has 7 cantrips and 5 1st level spells - 2 of which I could cast once for free. All of this at level 3. He has so much versatility and the ability to do consistent damage. Im glad this video serves to support my decision.

[@urvidhnarula6362]

We just finished a 2.5 year long campaign with a 3 person party- tempest cleric, swashbuckler rogue and armorer artificer. Rogue used Booming Blade (similar to how you used True Strike). The entire party and especially me (armorer) was all about setting up one person to just damage the enemy to death. Mind Sharpener infusion to the tempest cleric to hold concentration and destroy crowds of minions, and enhanced defence and enhanced weapon AC boosts to the rogue for surviving and hitting harder, plus imposing disadvantage constantly for the boss to hit either of them. All of our boss fights, basically 90% of our DPR came from the rogue. I would concentrate on Haste and have my homunculus Vortex Warp him around using my Spell Storing item so he could get away from the enemy after doing his reaction attack, the cleric would heal bot him and get rid of conditions, get him advantage via Guiding Bolt. Our entire party was just about setting him up for success to do insane damage, so much so that our DM gave up on describing how injured the enemies looked and started referring to their health as "roughly x rogue turns away from death" Rogues have always had insane DPR if you build them for it in melee, but giving up survivability for it is really difficult unless your party sets you up this good. My entire character was basically just designed carefully to set up the rogue for whatever he needed, enemies hated attacking me and letting him run amok for longer, but attacking him was so difficult with me tanking and moving him around.

[@Jimmy-p9n]

I love these baselines. Really shows players how the classes are going against each other. Also, it enables players to see where along the lvl line things can be improved.

[@samuelnewnes8609]

I think warlock baseline still makes sense. It’s now just the floor rather than a middle line. Every martial build should be able to get higher than warlock EB using “basic attacks” and if they don’t, they should have a really good reason to be giving up that consistent damage.

[@chrisramsay8795]

i feel like the warlock baseline needs updating for tasha's spirit shroud damage over hex at level 5 (and 9 for the level 5 upcast).

[@samuelnewnes8609]

Yeah that makes sense to me. As long as we recognize that the Warlock baseline represents the best of the “basic attacking” mages.

[@jeffhall832]

True Strike is going to be a part of a lot of builds and I like it!

[@philosopherhobbs]

I really appreciate you starting with the weakest class from 2014 and then the supposed weakest class from 2024. That's a great way to get an idea of how things have changed going forward looking at other classes. I think I'm interested in taking a look at the luck point feat 1st and getting true strike through Arcane trickster or the next feat. True Strike doesn't do much until lvl5. That will boost my early level damage (unlike true strike), supply advantage when I can't get it the rest of my levels, and I get true strike anyway when it actually contributes damage. Plus, trickster is going to grant some better defenses. I'm excited now about the rogue.

[@carlcramer9269]

This indirectly boosts the Arcane Trickster - you can rely on Int to attack, which will improve your spells. Your AC suffers, but there are lots of defensive spells.

[@feltrix334]

For anyone not wanting to rely wholly on True Strike, I ran the numbers on a melee dual wielder build, which performed similarly to the true strike build. A fighter dip and slight feat optimization would potentially push it to even higher damage than the optimized build, although you lose out on some of the flexibility and survivability offered by range.

[@Zayphar]

Answering the "What is the Baseline?" question is what I am most interested in.

[@pw3829]

Great video! I’m so happy to see a heavy Xbow on a build. Love it

[@TheJourneyman03]

Great video as always. From reading the comments and seeing the numbers, the best take away is that there are good avenues to building a viable rogue for damage. Here’s hoping it keeps up with other martials too.

[@nikcantsnipe]

I feel like including the calculation, even if in your description for the attack with just dex (no true strike) would be helpful for the majority of people. Hope you get to a 100k. Do you think you'd either run or play in a one shot with Colby and a Dungeon Dudes for your 100k celebration after the DMG comes out?

[@TreantmonksTemple]

I haven't decided whether to do anything for 100k or not yet. I suspect it's still at least a couple months away

[@nikcantsnipe]

@@TreantmonksTemple I see. Would be nice to see you play again but have a good day! At your current rate, I'd suspect you'd get there by mid November.

[@vindex57]

Perfect timing, I was literally just looking into how to optimize a Rogue. Great video as always!

[@fotipitrakkos1193]

This is very interesting. Cheers for the vid. I reckon one part of rogues would be fixed by giving them something akin to Opportunist from 3.5 - high level feature, make an opportunity attack when an ally hits an enemy against that same enemy. It doesn't fix the early levels unfortunately, but it does give that major boost later

[@lucasramey6427]

I kinda wish you'd go over the thief rogue's damage potential damage at the very least with spell scrolls, because you could either multiclass into a caster and scribe your own scrolls for cheap or wait until 10th level where you can use all spell scrolls and source your scrolls by feeding gold to an ally spellcaster or go the slightly more expensive route and buy scrolls from general stores and be restricted to cantrip and 1st level at a set dc and attack bonus and rely on spells that don't worry about the save dc, really the power of this rogue is reliant on your allies to supply you with ammunition like maybe if you're going against undead you get your paladin ally to scribe a bunch of scrolls of divine smite because that's something they can do, the main reliable source to aid in the potency of this rogue is general stores and quests (you can also buy divine smite scrolls from general stores because it's a 1st level spell)

[@MrBrodiero]

Love your content, Chris! Cool to see what the Rogue can do with True Strike. I think this makes sense for theory-crafting especially when discussing a damage baseline. In play, however, I don't know if I'd want to sacrifice everything else the Rogue does with Dexterity for a mental stat, even though the damage boost is significant. Eventually you can still get to 20 DEX, as you covered in the video, but with the build you presented, they have a 16 DEX until level 10 and don't get to 20 DEX until level 16. Considering a lot of campaigns are lucky to get beyond level 10 (in my experience, anyway), this seems like a pretty steep cost, considering DEX boosts your AC (assuming you are wearing light armor), initiative (especially relevant for an Assassin), and all your DEX skills which you use a fair amount as a Rogue. I think I would still get True Strike but I would probably prefer to prioritize investing in DEX sooner as I level up, to be more well-rounded, even if it means sacrificing some damage. A Headband of Intellect sure would be nice for a 2024 Rogue!

[@marca8881]

Great video. I hadn't considered True strike for a rogue but i can happily incorporate it into any build with little to no cost

[@HaloFTW2408]

Not sure how much of an impact it would have, but a cool trick you can use (depending on how you interpret certain things, though I feel like my way will be the most common) is by taking a 1 level dip in Sorcerer. Take True Strike as a Sorcerer spell (which frees up your Origin feat for something else like Musician or Alert). Then, use Innate Sorcery, which gives you Adv. on the attack rolls of Sorcerer Spells for 1 minute (can be used 2/Long Rest). Since the weapon attack is part of casting True Strike, you should effectively have advantage on attack rolls for 1 minute without requiring your bonus action or setting your speed to 0. You also still get the Epic Boon (although you have to wait to 20th to get it) which is very useful.

[@luiz-mb7su]

If you get a sorcerer level, you can use "Level 1: Innate Sorcery" which gives you an advantage on all sorcerer spell attacks for one minute, and can be used twice per long rest, taking truestrike which is on the sorcerer spell list, there is a rogue that always has an advantage on attacks, so always do sneak attack damage.

[@KorhalKk]

Two considerations: 1 - You can also get the Magic Initiate with one or two backgrounds, I didn't hear you talk about that option but there it is. 2 - I'm a little worried about the wording of True Strike: "The attack uses your spellcasting ability for the attack and damage rolls instead of using Strength or Dexterity", right? Could it mean that its obligatory or can you still use Dex for attacks and damage? Because there's no "You can use your spellcasting ability", but "The attack uses". So would the Arcane Trickster focus on Int then? The Eldritch Knight also?

[@TreantmonksTemple]

I will go over all of this in the video

[@KorhalKk]

@@TreantmonksTemple I'll watch

[@adamguy1984]

Always great, insightful content from the god wizard himself. Does this mean cunning strike makes more sense to use now, considering the damage output ability? I would have loved to see that part discussed at least a bit since it’s the “big new feature” for rogue. (Edit) I rewatched and saw that ‘envenom weapons’ was discussed. I still would like to know what the god wizard thinks of cunning strike options now that we realize what the damage potential is with true strike and build options.

[@rupertbutcher612]

Hey Chris, question for ya. As being a patreon member we get access to these before their monetized. As a KZbin premium user I was wondering if you still get a %of that before monetizing. I hope that is the case cause I love your stuff!

[@TreantmonksTemple]

I'm not sure to be honest. Probably not, but you being a Patron pays me WAY more than watching a monetized vid.

[@emulationemperor8924]

Definitely building a Human Arcane Trickster Rogue now. Taking both the Magic Initiate Wizard and the Lucky feats. That way I get the feeling of that Arcane Trickster feeling right away at level 1, and the Lucky feat to give me on demand advantage for when I really need it.

[@countadvocate]

I feel like going into melee with a 2024 Rogue shouldn't be as bad anymore as it was before cause Defensive Duelist is a lot better and actually should give you a decent AC? Sadly that does take the chance of a reaction sneak attack. Ans Dual Wielder can give you a 3rd attack. Idk if it's enough to make it optimal but it feels like a solid option to me since then you can use Vex + Nick

[@Itomon]

Rogues already get a very powerful defensive reaction. We need something that does not require a Reaction to build up

[@darklight9450]

⁠​⁠@@Itomon We already have cunning strike withdrawal to get away from enemy’s without a opportunity attacks. What we need is just for cunning strike to have another resource to pay for them. Also reworking the feats to be only include one attack and scale that way. For example the charger feat in 2024 is 1d8 for every attack you make the attack action if you move 10 feat straight line. Instead it should progress. Like level 5 1d8, level 11 2d8 level and level 17 3d8 for only one attack.

[@teuflas]

Am I the only one who dislikes the new 'Ignore Loading' feature of Crossbow Expert? I know it’s a game with magic and dragons, but I don’t like the idea of loading a crossbow without needing a free hand. It reminds me of the Demon Hunter in Diablo 3, where it feels like the bolts just appear out of nowhere. To me, it feels cheap and gamey.

[@tetragono70]

Indeed, that’s a feature taken right out of videogames. Flavour-wise, Crossbow Expert has always been an awfully unrealistic feat, as it is evident to anybody who ever wielded a crossbow in real life

[@alexandersalskov8639]

Maybe you load it with your teeth! Or your tail! Or some kind of crazy one handed juggle? I kind of like coming up with ideas like this to explain funny mechanics.

[@theowraight3223]

Yeah, if they want this, they should add more references to repeating crossbows

[@anujofish]

rogues in my game, especially with sharpshooter have been my top damage performers in my games, even most then casters, the big problem is overkilling targets for them and wasting potential damage.

[@evansmith2832]

The cool thing about thief rogue is that you can use crafted spell scrolls to cast true strike as a bonus action, while your action is free to ready another true strike to double up on sneak attack.

[@brendan9161]

Hey! Question: high elf but no elven accuracy? Seems like that would be a natural fit for this build. Especially since GWM won't work with true strike.

[@Crowley101]

This is so cool! I am a warlock main and would love to see how much the new warlock manages to surpass the old one! Loving these videos

[@xsheikah]

I am happy for you to almost hit 100k these videos are good man

[@graethynne]

The video title bait and switched me! I was hoping for a soul knife video. Still a great take as always! That said, since the RAW doesn't allow true striking with Psychic Blades and the Soul Knife does have a built in bonus action attack, (and sort of perma advantage between steady aim and vex) I feel like the approach would be completely different. thoughts?

[@danielbelchamber3894]

I love the graph comparisons, and I'm looking forward to seeing all 12 baseline classes on the same graph!

[@chainclaw07]

For example, a charisma rogue is a great skill monkey with expertise and they still have great to hit and damage with sneak attack + true strike. Instead of a 1 lvl dip into warlock for charisma weapon strikes and 1 lvl spell slot - you can go sorcerers, and gain innate sorcery to twice per long rest get advantage on all spell roll(including true strike) for 1 minute , essentially a combat. Longbow weapon mastery for slow to keep enemies away from you ...

[@TKDB13]

The one awkward thing about this rogue "baseline" DPR progression compared to the 2014 warlock baseline is that it's not exactly as obvious. Warlock baseline is not just good by the numbers, it's a very straightforward, out-of-the-box kit any newbie could easily figure out looking only at that one class they want to play. It's not quite automatic, since you *could* opt out of any of the three core components of EB + Hex + AB, but it's something the vast majority of players interested in doing damage as a warlock will easily gravitate towards. Not nearly as straightforward as noticing the value to rogues of a cantrip they DON'T normally get access to out of the box and figuring out how to get it.

[@pascalb3404]

Woow just great your Videos. The comparison base dmg line is soooo useful🤩

[@joshsmith4886]

I need a video like this for Ranger! This was very great 🎉

[@jamesbrandtdasilva2297]

Great take, rogue used to be my favorite class after wizard. I don't think I'll make a true strike rogue, but I'll go now to my DPR spreadsheet see if I can make a melee Booming Blade dex rogue do somewhat close to this damage using sentinel. Your video made me exited about the rogue again. Thanks.

[@chrisramsay8795]

why sentinel, that seems counterintuitive with booming blade and moving. combine it with the new warlock invocations of repelling and agonizing blast applied to booming blade, now we are talking :)

[@alex2legit]

21:43 yes, it did take me watching this far into the video for Treantmonk to explain why the title is hilarious xD

[@TheRealGraylocke]

Currently playing a SwashBlade (Rogue/Swashbuckler Wizard/Bladesinger) using the playtest/5.24 rules with a bit of homebrew. Lvl 4 Rogue/Lvl 3 Wizard. Swashbuckler's Rakish Audacity gets me Sneak Attack nearly every round. Sometimes dual wield a Rapier/Daggerm sometimes Rapier/Shadowblade. I'm not min/maxed, 15 Int, 16 Dex. Use Booming Blade when I can, then use Fancy Footwork to move away. Have Shield as a Reaction if needed. Bladesong boosts AC by Int bonus. I have a lot of fun with this build. Working my way up to lvl 6 Wizard for Extra Attack w/Bladesinger, then going back to Rogue. Initially, I did not (and to a degree still don't) like how the Rogue's subclass abilities beyond the front load at level 3, are few and far between. I do get why that is; base class gets something at nearly every level.

[@Matanlimer]

Once youve finished this series, would you consider releasing an Excel doc with all the baselines and caclulations? I think being able to view the TL;DR of these in a focused format would be very helpful.

[@TreantmonksTemple]

I don't do excel docs, but sometimes a viewer will put everything together

[@limaTheNoob]

Sounds like good member / patreon content.

[@Grorl]

Build idea I wanted to throw out for y'all. 6 celestial lock and rest rogue with true strike as your go-to with agonizing to said true strike. Thoughts?

[@levimote]

Great analysis! Curious to see how the Fighter dip Assassin compares to a heavy Crossbow specialized fighter.

[@vorack5224]

these videos showing the damage scale of the 2024 classes are great. Although I wish you at least added a line on the graph to show how the rogue would do without true strike in 2024

[@Bortnm]

Right, I should just give my rogues +1d6 @ 5, 11, and 17 "when they deal bludgeoning piercing and slashnig damage" ;) Now they have more D6s for their strikes features.

[@zachswanson6643]

So what I'm hearing is that we should just house rule cantrip scaling onto regular sneak attack and call it a day

[@tomgymer7719]

Weird graphical glitch at points on the DPR calculation sheet, still readable, but check out 24:24 to see what I mean. Really cool video! Glad Rogues are doing ok damage, although I do hope there are some good builds available without true strike, but still nice to see.

[@Rajellen]

You can take the high elf. And choise thief at level 3. Make sure you have arcaba skill. Scribe true strike scrolls for 15gp each. Then when you need to you can bonus action true strike and instead and get an extra attack. Small buff in damage but kind of fun using your fast hands trait

[@codymatson6615]

Hi Chris, for the optimized version you don't need 13 strength. For multiclassing, Figher's primary abilities are Strength OR Dexterity, and the Heavy property of the heavy crossbow states that you have disadvantage on attacks with *melee* weapons if your strength isn't 13, and disadvantage on *ranged* attacks if your dexterity isn't 13. So you could pump some of those strength points back into constitution with no issue!

[@chrisramsay8795]

why hes wrong for including the 13 strgenth becouse gwm doesnt work with truestrike, the reason he took 13 strength is that its a requirement for the GWM feat, Yeah some feats have stat requirements now.

[@nizham12345]

Thanks for the video but two questions 1) for reaction attacks on the same turn - isn't sneak attack once per turn so if your already used it during your turn for a weapon attack how can you get it again during your reaction attack 2) for true strike you now use your spell casting ability so you do have to invest in two abilities to max out. I'm currently playing a melee based 2024 assassin and Im curious if this strategy would work ?

[@TreantmonksTemple]

Sneak attack is once per turn, so if you want to sneak attack 2 times in a round the reaction attack needs to be on a different turn in that round.

[@nizham12345]

@@TreantmonksTemple Thank you Sir !!

[@ElManReborn616]

14:30 yes, but if you landed sneak with the first attack and it's one of those rounds in which you assumed to have a free bonus action, you're better off using sharpshooter on the second attack. I don't think that would change the math significantly

[@RevocerGM]

That's a cool image of the intelligent assassin, who takes their time to set up their shot and uses decent armour and a powerful crossbow.

[@alexanderwyattberg]

As we start comparing multiple builds on the same graph, I wonder if another useful way to view these curves would be as a percentage of baseline. Baseline would turn into - by definition - a flat line at 100%, while other builds danced around it. Would perhaps avoid the muddling of the graphs at the early levels all hanging out in the small bottom left corner…

[@godricbarbarossa8001]

I was thinking of a High Elf Thief Rogue. I would want a custom background (I think this will be the norm) for Magic Initiate Cleric. Acolyte is tolerable if custom backgrounds' are not allowed. Even War Caster at level 4. Rogue's benefit from cooperative party design. A Protection Battlemaster helps with defenses. Fast Hands with Command scrolls, Commanding Strike from Battlemaster, Dissonant Whispers from a bard. Lots of opportunities to stake sneak attack damage.

[@neileddy6159]

The difficulty i have with this rogue or any ranged attacker is this, topple is juicy, and if you have a fighter using topple judiciously, you either need to split focus to another target or you lose advantage because the target is prone. This significantly impacts ranged playstyle, especially for the rogue, who is so dependent on advantage for sneak attacks.

[@Riketz_]

This is an interesting take on the rogue and definitely performs better than expected, but i do think advantage on 100% of turns is unrealistic. Steady aim taking away all movement and having to have something out of sight to hide behind are pretty big limitations.

[@TreantmonksTemple]

It's one or the other, you don't need to use steady aim if you have somewhere to hide and you don't need somewhere to hide if you use steady aim. The only real thing that prevents advantage is if there's some kind of disadvantage you're dealing with, like the enemy is invisible for example.

[@chrisramsay8795]

@Riketz_ another way to get advantage is by starting level 1 sorc as your source of TrueStrike and using it in tandem with innate sorcery before going straight rouge.

[@darklight9450]

Also with the lucky feat you gain advantage for free. Not to mention the only way as rogue to get sneak attack on their own is to assume they have advantage. Since if not then we can not factor sneak attack damage.This is why people that find dpr give the rogue a 5% more chance to hit then other class.

[@96samcosmo]

I imagine that the recommended build for a Champion Fighter in the 2024 PHB might be a bit higher than that of the Warlock. That could be a good baseline as it is extremely accessible for new players.

[@TreantmonksTemple]

As you will see in my next video, the math for Champion is very complicated now.

[@Adurnis]

It’s so nice to have that fighter dip for the Archery fighting style too. Be nice to crit with Stroke of Luck at 20 though.

[@TreantmonksTemple]

Yeah, though you have to miss with that attack to turn it into a crit.

[@Adurnis]

Oh right the epic boon…

[@Caesar_Salad_Man]

If I ever play a game in 5.5, I’m definitely playing a Thief Rogue multiclassed with either a Bladesinger or Valor Bard. Not only do you get an Extra Attack that lets you use True Strike/Booming Blade/Green Flame Blade, but you can cast a spell from a scroll as a bonus action on the same turn, making you a true gish character in a way no other build can replicate.

[@chrisramsay8795]

multiclass with a level 1 sorc dip for innate sorcery perma advantage for 1 minute twice a day.

[@spark3828]

Wow, didnt expect this from rogue! But have a quick question: Why are you using intelligence? Cant you change the casting stat with magic initiate, and so wouldnt it be more adventagous to go wisdom, or at least charisma?

[@PearseNation]

I was thinking along these same lines. It’s nice to see the math!

[@KnotSavage]

idk how good itd be but i have this idea in my head of a rogue using mirror image, true strike, sentinel and war caster. because the wording of mirror image is it makes the enemy target something other than you, so if the DM will allow it you can be melee and get reaction attacks yourself by having aggro on something.

[@garion046]

Its good the Rogue can keep up, but this kind of feels bad. The damage might be ok but your AC isn't going anywhere for ages (so much so you might even consider building to get medium armor). Also initiative, cunning strike, stealth and sleight of hand aren't improving either, key features of the class. Contrast this with monk that could fully lean into the theme of the class with the 2024 rules. I think other classes with perform like monk, not lean on a secondary or tertiary stat as a primary. So, like yeah, you caaaaan, and its optimal to get TS, but its pretty far from what the class fantasy is about. TS is great for trickster and ok for thief, but meh for assassin and bad for soulknife. Not the best demo of a baseline for the class imo.

[@3558]

In my opinion True Strike is an optimized build for range Rogue but is far from being the only optimized rogue build. I agree with you on TS is great for trickster and ok for thief, but meh for assassin and bad for soulknife. I also think in the video he did the levelling a the TS build wrong. In my opinion you first reach 20 dex to have a good all around build (dmg, ac, skills) and only then raise int. You only start using true strike at level 16 or maybe 12 (if you think 18 int is enough). Also for your comparison with monk, rogue absolutely destroy monk outside of combat so it’s ok for me if monk perform better in combat. It’s exactly the same as bard and sorcerer.

[@b0baf00t8]

I can't wait to see all the 2024 classes on a graph together. I would find that more insightful than each being compared to this baseline. But I love and appreciate your work. Thanks for the great content.

[@aimerw]

So, with the Assassin build seeming to rely on GWM which does not work (the graph has them pretty -awful- baseline before level 11, which is when it was took), my presumption is another build would be appropriate. Was thinking True Strike Arcane Assasin utilising Haste for the off-turn attack, however, I realised that you cannot Haste the Magic Action for True Strike, cannot Ready the Magic Action and retain Haste (Concentration conflict), and of course cannot Ready the Haste attack either. So, you couldn't use True Strike at all. Which basically puts a 2024 Haste Rogue as the 2014 Haste Rogue (possibly still superior to baseline 2024 Rogue with True Strike, but a more optimised 2024 Rogue using True Strike might beat it). Or, escew the whole attack line kind of DPR and just throw damage scrolls at the situation with Thief, but that is very dependent on down-time and/or GP - both of which are very DM fiat.

[@ryanstoyan8980]

I'd love to see your take on a assassin using crossbow expert ether using aim if they don't have advantage already, or attacking twice if they do. I crunched the numbers on that a little and it actually looks like it just trails like 2-5 damage per turn behind true strike rogue at most levels.

[@ZohMyFkinGod]

Might not work with all DMs, but if you take a 1 monk level it will allow you to use your dexterity to make attacks with certain weapons. A cool DM might count that as an attack with a finesse weapon ;) With this you could use a quarterstaff with polearm master and hit someone when they enter your range to get an easy sneak attack on the enemy's turn. With Crusher you could even push them. Since you are melee, you'd probably use Booming blade. So on your turn you do booming blade + sneak attack + push. Then they move and take booming blade damage, enter your range, get sneak attack and pushed again. With sentinel, they could even get stuck there :) I'm sure your DM will regret saying yes xD

[@andrewmcmillan229]

I think a barbarian dip is more attractive than ever for a Rogue. Still got the guaranteed sneak attacks with reckless, but now rage uses come back on a short rest so you can have more per day. Plus going three levels into barbarian used to cost you 2d6 sneak attack, but now, if you go into berserker you get that 2d6 damage back with frenzy.

[@the_ceeman]

I think a 1 level dip in sorcerer is pretty nice for rogues, since you get true strike and innate sorcery which can give you free advantage for two combats a day

[@MrSpectralfire]

I wanted to see the shadow monk and assassin next to each other on the graph. At the end of the series could you put all the optimized builds up at the same time?

[@zenith110]

So, I am truly thrilled to see this, it has to be said. However, I am now more and more anxious about the DMG and the MM as I play both roles as a PC and DM and I know some of the vanilla 2014 creatures won't stand up to this kind of damage - and I hope that the monsters have more tools or are generally a bit more resilient, particularly for well-known solo monsters. We'll just have to see.

[@overose9278]

I just want to point out to everyone that doesn't like the true strike rogue baseline is that the baseline warlock also requires Eldritch Blast and Hex. There are plenty of times you will chose one action over another. DnD is not in a bubble but rather is very context dependent.

[@limaTheNoob]

Apples to oranges. Casting a cantrip is clearly different from what rogues are intended to do. Warlocks incentive investing in charisma. That's natural for them, it's their primary ability score. For rogues, that's dex. The situation is so egregious here that true strike route just shuts down an entire rogue subclass. That comparison really doesn't make a lot of sense imo

[@cenauge]

I can’t be the only one who was hoping to see a graph of where the Assassin Rogue stacked up against the Shadow Monk. Alas! Great video though. I’m curious about how a Rogue without True Strike would look, but I’m afraid the answer is “much worse.”

[@pallen2645]

Chris, is there a reason you haven't updated the warlock baseline with an epic boon at 19? Does the boon of combat prowess not work on spell attacks?

[@chrisramsay8795]

boons were a standard part of 2014?

[@banan9377]

have you calced taking Sharpshooter instead of Dex at 8? Intuitively it feels like a bad thing since most of Rogue's damage comes from Sneak Attack and Sharpshooter makes it less likely for you to hit Sneak Attack but when I did a calc for my Rogue in Baldur's Gate 3 I was surprised that Sharpshooter actually outperformed +2 Dex for that specific build but I just chalked that up to BG3 being a video game where there's less variability in unknown factors and build specific things in Baldur's Gate that's not guaranteed in a tabletop campaig, curious how that applies to Rogues in general in a less specific circumstance.

[@Zertryx]

I think you should consider Melee rogues for 2024, due to the fact that with weapon mastery (and nick) you free up your bonus action to allow rogues to move in attack twice with advantage and sneak attack and dash as bonus action out or Dodge making them much more defensive than before as melee

[@ramshacklewizard]

Did you mean Fighting Initiate for level 12 from Tasha's by chance? I don't see another way to get the Archery style other than that!

[@TreantmonksTemple]

Yes. DId I say Martial Adept? I meant whatever feat gives the fighting style.

[@ggfrt96]

I'm not a huge fan of cunning strikes but i will admit. lv 14 using withdra and knock out with a short bow seems kinda fun. they go unconscious and you run away then hide again as a bonus action. removes sneak attack damage completely, but still interesting to me

[@josequiles7430]

I still can't believe true strike working with ranged weapons made it into the PHB

[@SilentSooYun]

When your headline shows the Rogue is mental, I fully expected a Soulknife build :P

[@jubalhester6799]

I think something about rogues that is difficult to calculate is their usefulness outside of combat or with less quantifiable situations. Rogues can be crucial in games with traps but that really depends on the dm/campaign. Also, a thief rogue with all kinds of adventuring gear, scrolls, wands, etc can pull off some impressive moves. This is even more situational though and dm dependent. They are so much more than DPR. With that being said, i feel like cunning strike shouldn't cost SA dice and eouldnt be game breaking.