Woof. Folks, God bless you. Please try a few John Behr videos and lectures on how the early church read scripture for all the relevant (and lifegiving and great fruit producing) that was left out of this. I used to listen to White and think “I don’t like it, but I don’t know if there’s a good rebuttal to it.” Now, I’m happy to say and see that going deeper and broader in the Christian tradition has led to that earlier thought being (though I still have compassion for it) laughable!
@lbamusic4 ай бұрын
Sovereign Eternal God means exactly that!! Creator God has never. been bound by man's definitions, rationaliations, hopes, fears, conceptions or wishes. Nothing about God has to makes sense to us. He is far beyond anything we can conceive of.
@stephengorman10253 ай бұрын
Then why are we commanded to worship him with our mind. God was incarnated in Christ so that we would know Him and clearly see His character. Jesus said 'if you have seen me you have seen the Father'
@gracearmor10 ай бұрын
What is the unbeliever rejecting? If Calvinism is true, then the unbeliever is rejecting a God who doesn't love or provide for them. They are rejecting a God who first rejected them and created them for wrath. Who wouldn't reject that? You must start with the biblical teaching of God's love and provision for all people to present an accurate view of the gospel. Otherwise, people may think they aren't really loved or provided for when in reality they are. If they reject the gospel, they are rejecting a God who genuinely loves and provides for them. They should know that.
@ReformedlyGuy8 ай бұрын
This Flowersian garbage completely doesn’t grant the Calvinist position like you imagine… the entire case from Romans 9 is that what God has decided would determine what that unbeliever does with Christ by their own wills. So your comment seems to try to grant Calvinism yet also view God from without it still. It’s like Calvinism is true but yet we can judge it like it wasn’t. Huge logical problem with this argument.
@DaveH89057 ай бұрын
@@ReformedlyGuymore logically ridiculous is the fundamental basis for his argument - that a person could reject God BASED on their definite knowledge of their own reprobation, which they would never have.
@cherylaguilar54215 ай бұрын
This is totally missing the point of other arguments.
@jalapeno.tabasco3 ай бұрын
emotional arguments are just terrible
@tomferguson49964 ай бұрын
Dr. White's hyperdramatization makes hyperbole look like flatline.
@roshankurien20310 ай бұрын
Need to show the other side of the coin you can’t read Romans 9 in isolation to Jerimiah 18, Ezekiel 18 Ezekiel 33 2 Timothy 2:20 etc
@shay-car4 ай бұрын
Romans 9 is Paul using the nation of Israel's own history to show why the Jews are rejecting Jesus as Messiah and how God's word is being fulfilled through the Church! In Romans 9:1-5 Paul’s grieves his people for being the best prepared. In verse 9:3, he compares his kinsmen, biological Israelites, to idolaters who deserve death by the sword. He does this by taking on the role of Moses when he requested God to blot him out too. Moses and Hebrew idolaters is the first Israelite story Paul flips on its head. Unbelieving Jews think of themselves like Moses, but Paul is saying their pride in their elect status is an idol. Romans 9:6, Paul distinguishes between Israel of the flesh and Spiritual Israel. What is Israel? God made promises to the northern 10 tribes that have been assimilated or blended with other nations. God fulfills His promises to the House of Israel by bringing in all nations into the Church, Spiritual Israel, and in doing so Israel will be saved (Romans 11:25). By bringing into Spiritual Israel all the peoples of the earth, the Lost Tribes are brought in too and thus the promise made to them is fulfilled. Then in Romans 9:7-9 he tells us that the Jews being unfaithful has not ruined God’s plan, because God chooses His people through faith in Christ, the Seed of Abraham (Galatians 3:16), not according to natural lineage. He illustrated this by comparing unbelieving Israel to Ishmael (a child of works) and the Church to Isaac (a child of faith). The unbelief of Jews did not hinder God’s promises to the prophetic entity Israel because God’s people, the Church or Spiritual Israel, are reckoned by the Spirit and not by the flesh. This is the second Israelite story Paul flips on its head. Paul did this same flipping of Israel's beloved narrative in Galatians 4:21-31. Therefore, we should be looking at the other stories in Romans 9 as possible inversions too. The first 18 verses of Romans 9 present 5 ancient Israelite narratives inverted. In Romans 9:9 Paul quotes from Genesis 18:10 and 14 because in this passage, Sarah is doubting God's promise like the Jews doubt Messiah and Paul's message. They think they are faithful like their father Abraham, but Paul says you are doubting God like Sarah! Doubting Sarah is the third Israelite story Paul flips on its head. Prideful Jews don't see themselves as doubting God's promise, but they mock Paul from synagogue to synagogue. Then in Romans 9:10-13 Paul says the Jews are acting like Esau selling their birthright for some porridge. Jacob is like the Church who became the greater of two peoples by a blessing that was not earned by works. The Older, Nation of Israel, has served the Younger, the Church, by both bringing forth Messiah to bless all families of the earth (Genesis 12:2-3) and by preserving the oracles of God. God's purpose according to election is to fulfill His promise which He spoke to Abraham. Jesus taught this same angry Older vs. Younger narrative in Luke 15:11-32 where the older brother was angry about the compassion shown his younger brother. Those who have worked longer are also angry in Matthew 20:1-16. Paul emphasized in Romans 9:10-13 that we are members of Spiritual Israel by the grace of God through faith in Christ, not by the works of the Law of Moses. Jacob and Esau is the fourth Israelite story Paul flips on its head. In Romans 9:14-18 he reiterates that becoming members of God’s people is by the sheer mercy of God alone, a mercy that is received through the easy yoke of faith, not the striving labor of the Law of Moses. Pharaoh was hardened by God like He is hardening Israel (Romans 11:7). Moses and Pharaoh is the fifth Israelite story Paul flips on its head. Romans 9:19 One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?” Israel has resisted God's will repeatedly. Like Paul, Stephen in Acts 7:51 equates the ancient resisting of God's will to his contemporary kinsmen, the Jews. Resisting His will is why God uses Potter/Clay in Jeremiah 18 and Isaiah. The imperfect Clay can spoil or submit in the perfect Potter's hand. Potter/Clay therefore solves the tension between God's sovereignty and man's free will. Experts Potters all agree Clay on the Potter's wheel acts like it has a mind of its own. The Clay is only locked in once it has been hardened. Romans 9:20-21 connects to Jeremiah 18 by the Potter and the Clay Analogy. By alluding to this passage in Jeremiah 18, Paul is telling the unbelieving nation of Israel, whom he is hypothetically debating with, that God has justly hardened Israel and used their sin to glorify His name just like He did with Pharaoh. Israel is guilty for their unbelief and also for their rebellion and persecution of God's elect people, the Body of Christ. The fact that God's plan is not harmed by them does nothing to lessen their guilt. In Romans 9:22-24 he points out that the unbelieving Jews, who make up the large part of the nation of Israel at that time, have been formed into vessels of wrath. And the remnant of Jewish believers along with the Gentile believers are vessels of mercy. This second group makes up the Church of Jesus Christ. Verse 9:22b is often mistranslated in a way that the sovereignty of God is twisted beyond how it is described in the Old Testament. There's a free online Harvard Theological Review article that uses the Septuagint to present a more correct translation of 9:22b, "Vessels of Wrath and God’s Pathos: Potter/Clay Imagery in Rom 9:20-23" Paul proves His point by referencing prophecies in 9:25-29. A remnant of believers out of Israel are saved. Paul has used beloved narratives of Genesis, Exodus, and the Prophets to prove his point. Unfortunately, many Calvinist exegesis stop at verse 24 because the beloved doctrine of Unconditional Election is harder to infer by Paul's quoting of the Prophets. Paul brings his whole argument of nation of Israel vs. nation of Spiritual Israel into focus in 9:30-10:4. The Church obtains righteousness by faith, but the Jews thought righteousness was by Works of the Law and their lineage. Paul has inverted 5 Israelite narratives and then proceeded to reinforce his argument through the prophets and brought everything into focus in 9:30-10:4.
@jalapeno.tabasco3 ай бұрын
you're kidding right?
@shay-car3 ай бұрын
@@jalapeno.tabasco this is approximately how Romans 9 is taught outside of the Reformed tradition. Old Testament context must be respected. Reading the chapter superficially without understanding the citations is a common Reformed mistake.
@jalapeno.tabasco3 ай бұрын
@@shay-car do you understand the citations(no, its not Jeremiah 18)? you do realize context is immediate passage first, then whole chapter, then whole book, then the new testament as a whole then the old testament right?
@shay-car3 ай бұрын
@@jalapeno.tabasco The context is the argument. Paul crystalizes his Romans 9 argument in 9:30-10:4. The Jew/Gentile comparison is clear. What modern readers struggle to understand is [1] the Jewish objections Paul is countering and [2] who is being slotted in for which characters in the 5 Israelites stories.
@jalapeno.tabasco3 ай бұрын
@@shay-car did u not read the end of Romans 8? the Spirit inspired Paul to write in the order that he did.. you're using backwards eisegesis
@cherylaguilar54215 ай бұрын
Do not rely on this man to explain alternate views. Joel Korytko offers a clearer explanation of the analogies involved. This is such a misrepresentation.
@shay-car4 ай бұрын
Hi Cheryl. This is Corbin Dallas on my wife's account. This morning, I sent you my google docs notes for Romans 9. It is funny that I see you on KZbin in a random comment section! I commented my Romans 9 analysis on this James White video.
@cherylaguilar54214 ай бұрын
@@shay-car hello from my husband and I to you both!
@jalapeno.tabasco3 ай бұрын
🤣🤣🤣 mr i ignore the immediate context and jump to the old testament
@shay-car3 ай бұрын
@@jalapeno.tabasco Romans 9-11 have the highest concentration of Old Testament citations in the entire corpus of Paul. 30% of all of his citations are in this section of Romans.
@lincwayne343513 күн бұрын
Well now - John Calvin would definitely be the ultimate calvinist! Let's see how his doctrines of damnation worked in his life: "Do not fail to rid the country of those scoundrels, who stir up the people to revolt against us. Such monsters should be exterminated... "...As I have exterminated Michael Servatus the Spaniard." - John Calvin to the Marquis Paet, High Chamberlain to the King of Navarre, 1561 Uh...no thanks... "Ye shall know them by their fruit." - the Lord Jesus Christ