Rome - Caesar is declared a public enemy of Rome.

A scene from the HBO's famous TV series 'Rome'. Roman Senate passed the motion that would declare Caesar a public enemy of SPQR,(the Senate and People of Rome) People's tribune (Mark Antony) failed to exercise his veto over the motion.

[@Lorgar64]

In case anyone's wondering, Pompey wanted to pass a motion in the senate that would declare Caesar an enemy of the state. It would show Caesar he had no support from them, but would of course give him no choice but war. That's why they planned on his friend and newly elected (thanks to Caesar) peoples' tribune Mark Anthony, to use his powers to veto the motion. Caesar understands he has no support, but not actually declared an enemy of the state. Only Anthony wasn't able to use his powers of veto, which concerned Cicero as he hadn't wanted to support the motion in the first place given it was meant to be vetoed, which was a taboo for him, and only supported it because Pompey convinced him Caesar was a threat.

[@halaambe]

Thanks. I was looking through the comments for an explanation to why he wanted it vetoed afterwards.

[@elyastoohey6621]

Brother I don’t think anyone was in doubt. Rome is a great show, but it isn’t very hard to follow. Everyone has their emotions worn on their faces that you know what they want.

[@AaronDarkus]

Thank you.

[@reinforcer9000]

They probably shouldn't have tried to play around like that. Precariously stoking the fires of civil war

[@MrDwarfpitcher]

@@reinforcer9000 It was Roman politics. And a lot had happened in those years that made it very difficult to grasp a semblance of what was "Worth risking" There are some great series on youtube, but just to give you an idea. Caesar was to protect Gaul, but German Allies wanted to fight for land in Gaul. Whatever he would do, he would create enemies in Rome. In Rome, some politicians were basically hiring hooligans to intimidate other politicians. Around Rome, the economical divide between rich and poor was getting broader by the day. The only answer Rome could come up with were the Marian Reforms but even then, the situation was going in a downward spiral. Rome's political situation was a bomb of which the fuse was lit years ago. So it was but a question of time.

[@TheVinster177]

I love how they start yelling if they disagree. Absolutely hilarious.

[@pjnlsn]

ik it's great

[@MrJakeypakey]

The British Parliament had to get it from somewhere.

[@Zamolxes77]

Its funny how they wear civility as a thin veneer, as soon as they dislike something, shouting and knives from under the togas.

[@starranger9410]

If you think our Parliament's bad for that you obviously haven't been to America. Their Congress is even worst!

[@partizanlegis]

+Tim Muttock well, you haven't witnessed our recent sessions at the Greek Parliament then

[@Nonaggress]

I love how the Parliamentarian is inflexibly committed to the rules, but is also happy to give his approval if someone's found a loophole. He's a hard-ass, but not an asshole.

[@SteamCraftStudios]

Loophole? LOOPHOLE!?!!! This is a religious matter! There are no loopholes in religion!

[@AnvilMAn603]

thats the princeps senatus, the first senator. hes literally the oldest member

[@Nonaggress]

@@AnvilMAn603 Well it seems like he's also the Senate Parliamentarian

[@EXstreemSky]

It's a very religious thing. Departure from the rules was the most terrible sacrilege. Oldman doesn't have long to live anyway, so why he should upset the gods?

[@AnvilMAn603]

@@EXstreemSkyTRICK YOU SAY, this is a religious matter, there are no tricks in religion

[@TheMeanConservative]

So this guy must be the "Yoda" of ancient Rome.

[@emperorbartu2414]

Who mark antony!?

[@MK-nd2ij]

@@emperorbartu2414 he is talking about the senile old fool

[@AnvilMAn603]

@@MK-nd2ij he is the princeps senatus the "first senator" theres more to it but for TLDR: the oldest senator.

[@thefootienut]

More like an aged John Bercow

[@MazeThePlaya]

@@thefootienut More like Father of the House.

[@N0TYALC]

“This is a religious matter.” Hmmm, seems reasonable. Perhaps we should let the Pontifex Maximus decide wether the motion passes.

[@teal_m_101]

Oh, this made me laugh.

[@SMAXZO]

@@teal_m_101 Because Caesar's the Pontifex Maximus at the time, correct?

[@teal_m_101]

@@SMAXZO Yeah

[@Moobeus]

Nice 😂😂😂

[@Olorin-wp9it]

Yes, let the guy who believed he was the son of a god and demanded worship from his subjects decide eveything.

[@jupiterrising887]

Cicero: "VETO THE MOTION!" Antony: *Surprised Pikachu face*

[@millaz26]

😂😂😂

[@unowno123]

its still funny how he wanted to show that caesar had no support, yet an entire mini civil war starts in the senate alone about it, clearly showing caesar has support a plenty

[@arifahmedkhan9999]

He bought them over, but ok nonetheless.

[@Cloudsouth]

Eesh. I wouldn't quite say support a plenty. It was more them voting against the consequences of what would be the reality of Ceaser becoming an enemy of Rome when he had the loyalty of most of the Legions and was loved by the people. The senate in particular, especially in his youth, thought Ceaser was a right royal pain in the arse.

[@niccolorichter1488]

Caesar had like 22 die hard senátors thats very low

[@foolslayer9416]

Cicero: *moves for the vote* *20 seconds later* Cicero: "Veto the motion!!"

[@simonrobillard]

He wanted to intimidate Caesar by showing that the senate was against him. He knew full well that Marc Antony, as a Tribune of the pleb, would veto the motion

[@jakechinn6561]

@@simonrobillard But Antony bullheaded as he was got involved in all the fighting and never bothered to veto the motion. Only after he calmed down did he go 'Oh shit'

[@reinforcer9000]

@@jakechinn6561 lol yeah they should've consulted beforehand

[@MrLolx2u]

@@jakechinn6561 He actually din't get involved but was trying to get out of it as the fight got to him till Cicero told him to veto it then as confused as he was, it suddenly woke him the fuck up then he declared it but was too late.

[@nocturnalrecluse1216]

That's because Pompey forced him into the act. Cicero initially declined because he feared civil conflict. This is all political games that Pompey started and Ceaser finished.

[@OceanHedgehog]

This is why (the show) version of Antony was a terrible choice for Tribune. He was a military man, not a politician. The optimates counted on him to veto the motion on his own, but he got so caught up in the conflict that he forgot the reason why he was there.

[@mostafaalnaserify]

I hope you know that all the story line here is not accurate 😕 , they declared Ceasar a traitor by an unvetobel act basically declaring a state of emergency 😉

[@efeghilmffdsee5216]

@@mostafaalnaserify that's not true. they attempted to declare him an enemy of the people, it was vetoed. Later on, they passed the Senatus Consultum Ultimum which gave Pompey (and the other consul) absolute power to defend the Republic, which he used to begin organising a military response.

[@niccolorichter1488]

@@efeghilmffdsee5216 pompeius actually wasnt consul at the time

[@JonatasAdoM]

@Mostafa Alnaser That's the irony. I read once that the BBC made the show like this rather than actually telling the wondrous original story because the British "knew Roman history, thus they'd tell the unknown bits" (or something of sorts).

[@JonatasAdoM]

I always hear it being said that Romans were expected to be as much martial men as shrewd politicians however. At the same time I hear of examples like this scene, of Romans that somehow were good on the field but not in the Senate and vice versa.

[@Wasabiithechoirgeek]

Pompey: “Antony must not be harmed!” Random Romans: “COWABUNGA IT IS”

[@scott6828]

Excellent writing and understanding of how the Romans viewed their Senate. Everything within the promerium was considered Holy ground and especially within the Senate building laws decreed and voted for was considered sacrosanct.

[@dorianphilotheates3769]

Scott - True; but, pomerium or pomoerium.

[@thegoodthebadthebeard2907]

and then they murdered someone in it

[@darkmagician2521]

@@thegoodthebadthebeard2907 They wouldn't have if he didn't have a child with Cleopatra. By doing that, he made his own grave. His assassins did what they had to do because of their ancestors who expelled Rome's kings.

[@barissaaydinn]

@@darkmagician2521 It has almost nothing to do with Cleopatra lol. Where did you get that? Maybe it could've been one of the thousand grievances, but not the main motivator. Heck, even Caesar sleeping with half of the conspirators' wives, sisters, or mothers probably played a bigger role than Cleopatra.

[@EvilRyuGuy]

Knowing this makes the Tifa porn incident much funnier.

[@Italianguy37]

Not much has changed in Italy lol. Pretty sure this happened last week lol.

[@itacool6457]

lol yep

[@alexanderm5674]

XD

[@atekin99]

lmao

[@Alopex1]

Yeah, I went to vote. Voted for Emma Bonino. Made no difference, Fascists and populists won big time. Not that it'll change much. No government in Italy ever managed to get anything done, and rarely lasts longer than a couple of years.

[@Dr.TJ_Eckleburg]

Europe needs fascism.

[@surreptitious5869]

I remember when this show came out in summer 2005, absolute masterpiece. Was odd to see Kenneth Cranham as Pompey when I'd seen him as Jimmy in Layer Cake the year before!

[@diogeneslantern18]

Oh I'm in the mood to watch layer cake now. What an excellent throwback

[@ucnguyencong6675]

What is the name of the show

[@jurgen9568]

So sad they rushed the ending of it. First season was amazing!

[@MaxwellAerialPhotography]

Yes! Not enough people know about that movie.

[@ikki6792]

Odd how Sirius Black used to be an emperor before teaching in Hogwarts

[@kumisz2]

1:19 that look Anthony gives to Cicero is priceless.

[@falconlord9981]

kumisz Anyway Cicero is most op charachter xD

[@madavarams268]

@@falconlord9981 Cicero was so OP, The second triumvirate nerfed him

[@jensibowable]

That old dude was awesome! His confident pouting! Incredible!

[@cdcdrr]

Pompey: We are doing the thing. Cicero: I support doing the thing. 'Speaker': We will do the thing. Cicero: No wait, stop! Don't do the thing! Anthony: I oppose the thing! 'Speaker': The thing shall be done! Cicero: Stop doing the thing! 'Speaker': Lalala I can't hear you lalala! Politicians haven't changed in two thousand years.

[@nahidbethehonoredone]

Politicians will always be politicians.

[@AuomAk]

Politic, Politic never changes.

[@anastasiosgkotzamanis5277]

I miss the old computer RPGs.

[@heinricho2886]

this part is untrue, they passed a law that cannot be vetoed so it was carried by 7/8ths of the senate

[@loonie5468]

Juno Inferna! Senile old fool! - I have to remember to use that.

[@Zamolxes77]

Yeah or "By Jupiter's cock !"

[@Serghey13]

Or Pluto's arsehole and Vulcan's dick. :P

[@cgavin1]

Hugely disprespectful. That old man was Publius Servilius Vatia Isauricus. He was hailed Imperator by his legions, in the field, just like Pompey. A great man does not disrespect a great man .. seems kinda unrealistic.

[@reximingan9420]

@@cgavin1 yeah but in a motion important that would decide the fate of Rome, only for he to mess it up big time would be bound to be called that. Can't blame Pompey for it.

[@deepdungeon8465]

@@reximingan9420 yeah, the old guy is a princeps founders and a full blooded noble.

[@bonkersmcgee4356]

There's a couple of scenes in this show that show pivotal history-changing and infamous moments in history, and it gives you a little lump in the throat. This scene, of course. When Vercingetorix kneels to Caesar. And especially when Antony takes the long walk into the palace, stops for a few seconds, and gives a greeting: "Cleopatra", and the credits roll. Just epic.

[@manfrombritain6816]

one thing i love in Rome is the repeating theme of accidents changing the course of history - like when Pompey tries to have the treasury gold taken from Rome and the men steal it then Pullo comes across it and gifts it to Caesar. then that other time when Mark Antony must make it to the senate house alive and the man in the crowd sees Pullo and attacks, and a brawl kicks off which prevents Mark Antony from making it just sheer brilliance. i think this sort of thing will have happened a lot in history and we have no idea. these moments are - as you say - PIVOTAL and they pivot so suddenly because of tiny details.

[@bonkersmcgee4356]

@Will Muny Yes we know, nothing happened before last Thursday. We get it. It's all a simulation.

[@bonkersmcgee4356]

@Will Muny lol

[@DogeickBateman]

@Will Muny Ok boomer

[@DogeickBateman]

@Will Muny Keep crying buddy I have a job to do

[@sethwoll6240]

When the Princeps says that its a religious matter he doesn't mean in terms of faith, the gods, ect. He means that if any action or motion that passes within the time of the Senate being in session it must be carried on with or without a veto or in regards to other matters and cannot be reversed within the same session if carried without opposition. So when things erupted into chaos just before Antony declared a veto it wouldn't technically be considered a legitimate motion due to the Senates ruling of religious matters and how Antony technically did not have the floor hearing. However, at the end, Cicero pointed out in a loophole that since the Senate wasn't adjourned or dismissed properly the motion to declare Ceaser an enemy of Rome was still on topic for the Senate regardless of the next day as it would be considered a resuming of the same session by the same religious ruling. Hence, it being a religious matter for the Senate. Also when Pompey calls the Princeps a 'senile old fool' its actually kinda comedic given how we perceive what senile means today, but in this time period 'Senile' was a word to describe a senator who had been in the Senate House for a great majority of his life :P

[@JustinCage56]

Neat!

[@danesovic7585]

Hm, I thought that they regarded the Roman Republic as divinely ordained and therefore decisions of the Senate were akin to religious law too.

[@khairiaris]

The word Religion comes from Latin which means to bind. So the process requires strict observance as it binds to the gods.

[@israeltovar3513]

It was a matter of religion because all ancient cities from Greece and several in Italy were religious organizations. The Senate is a sacred religious assembly, gathered in a temple, and each senator had to make a libation and a prayer on the altar upon entry. To speak was a sacred right and duty, and to vote was the highest of sacred duties, alongside combat. The motions and formalities of the voting were parts of a sacred ritual, sanctioned by the priests, the gods, and the customs of their forefathers, it was the mos majiorum. They had to go through it all to ensure the gods were fully sanctioning the decisions. Each step had been enshrined into religious law by their forefathers, who witnessed the good results of following these procedures to the letter. The old man is representative of the oldest kind of patrician existing in Rome, a member from a religious family, able to count his forefathers all the way back to the foundation of the city itself, and even further, until a mythical hero or even a god(like the gens Iulia, who traced their line back to Venus). He cannot understand anything outside of his religion, the religion of his fathers and the religion of the city. For him, religion takes precedence over politics, and will not bend the law just for the sake of it. Even finding workarounds was a long and tedious process, involving etymologies, twists of phrase, or exploitation of loopholes or unintended effects of the laws. Tht is why Cicero has to think like a religious lawyer, find the loophole in order to follow the law, and getting his result. Strictly speaking, since they didn't concluded the session with all the formalities required, the gods hadn't fully given their complete seal of approval. A religious ceremony must be opened, conducted, and concluded. To do otherwise would void the ceremony itself, since the closure is part of the ceremony in itself. To do otherwise is to , best case scenario, have no divine support; worst case scenario, to offend the gods and have them work against the decisions taken. A religious city would be deeply scared of a sacrilegious action, since it may put all the gods of the city against its inhabitants, opening it up to plague, famine, natural disasters, or conquest. Therefore, the decisions would be void, and a expiatory sacrifice would had been necessary. Cicero's solution made it that this was unnecessary, as they just needed to reconvene the assembly to finish the procedure, and then close the ceremony properly. Real time has no importance, religious time is what matters. Pompey was portrayed as a more pragmatical and less concerned politician, more concerned with his personal ambitions, and his agenda, which, may I say, was also a religious agenda, since he was a member of the conservatives, which wanted to make the Republic more old-fashioned patrician controlled aristocracy, which would have meant that the city's religion would had been even more powerful in the end. Caesar was interpreting the law and religion in a more liberal and flexible way, he was a popular leader, a liberal of sorts in his time....

[@LordVader1094]

It absolutely was a matter of the gods and faith, as in their view the Senate was supported by it.

[@anarchistatheist1917]

for a speaker of the senate house that older senator with the staff does not have a loud voice.

[@nicolasahumada8974]

Its based on the respect, he might not have a loud voice but in the roman society the elders were highly respected.

[@octaviancaesarhibernicus4447]

Nicolas Ahumada the word Senate actually came from Senex meaning old man.

[@Commievn]

It's still practiced today, some what. The US president pro tem for example, is chosen by seniority, as in who serve the longest in the senate.

[@nicolasahumada8974]

cursus honorum and stuff haha

[@DiabolicalAngel]

He still has presence by virtue of being a senior.

[@butterbelly3367]

Where's Dickus Biggus?

[@pioneercolonel]

If you mean Biggus Dickus, he is with incontinenta buttocks.

[@brucetucker4847]

He was in Wome, but he's gone to Judea to see his fwiend Pilate.

[@Stokie09123]

"BORIS, VETO THE MOTION! VETO THE MOTION!"

[@ay2dee]

I came here thinking the exact same thing!

[@markom7385]

vin 950 boris johnson, brexit

[@MM-vs2et]

Cicero screaming to Antony to veto wasn't out of regret, Cicero knew if he didn't agree to the motion, he would be seen as a reformist, or Caesar's supporters, and he didn't want to be seen like that, so he stood up, knowing his followers would do the same, so he used the chaos as an opportunity to yell at Antony to veto the motion

[@Godunow100]

He supported the motion because Pompey warned him that if it wont stand he would leave Rome unprotected. Then again he knew that according to Pompey's plan Marc Anthony had to veto the motion in order to avoid civil war.

[@MM-vs2et]

@@Godunow100 Everyone knows war was inevitable at that time. Both sides just wanted an upper hand. By declaring Caesar a public enemy, word would spread of Caesar's negativity, war propaganda of course, and his supporters would dwindle. Cicero just was on Pompey's side, but he kinda knew what Caesar is capable of, and he was seen back in those days, pretty 'neutral' and was a good mediator, so for his own sake, he didn't want to pick a side, but for Rome's sake, he picked Pompey.

[@somethindarker]

Now this is the kind of political process I can get behind.

[@Zajin13]

BlackDeathViral03 Didn't they also stab every emperor who didn't pay them well enough (or another person paid them more)? I remember that at one point the roman emperor actually bought a group of germanic warriors to ensure his safety, because a germanic slave warrior was bound to his master and would be killed from the plebs if they murdered the emperor.

[@Jbroglydecap]

Zajin13 Caligula

[@Jbroglydecap]

BlackDeathViral03 Caligula was seperated from his german guards when exiting a Circus-gladiator fight,.,he was not killed by them.

[@fl333r]

+BlackDeathViral03 well that sounds simple enough. Praetorians are ineffective, expensive bodyguards. Get new bodyguards. Problem solved. Yay!

[@Guitcad1]

Also known as "clusterfuckism."

[@Balt21Raven]

0:46 Cato ready to rock and roll.

[@Basta11]

Each Senator were essentially like a mini King. These men grew up as the most educated and riches men in society. As Senators, they would also be military governors, generals, priests in some cases. They also were heads of family corporations, owning businesses, lands, properties, cattle, slaves, ships, etc. Many had professions as lawyers and professors. Some were mobsters involved in the criminal underworld. All of them grew up around one another. They all know each other like a perpetual high school. When one person becomes very powerful, the others feel threatened that their roles, opportunities, and privileges might be taken away. Why they fought each other is more about jealousy than anything else.

[@ottokarl5427]

It wasn't just jealousy though, it was the implosion of their entire political system. The competition between the senators, their "Cursus Honorum" was viewed as a good thing for hundreds of years. It was expected from every senator to compete and try to reach the rang of Consul. It is a bit like the competition between political parties in democractic systems today: They are meant to compete with each other, win over each other. What made Marius, Sulla, Pompey and eventually Caesar different was the sheer amount of power they accumulated. They destroyed the competition. And eventually, that is exactly what happened. After Augustus, the position of Consul was usually appointed by the Imperator himself, often multiple per year, because the need of "Ex-Consul" was rather high (there were certain positions that could only be filled out by people who once hold a Consul title...doesn't matter how long they hold it though). The "Cursus Honorum" still existed, but it lost a good chunk of its meaning. Instead, a few hundred years later, there was a new competition: The competition between those Romans who hold military power, which would be a major contributor to the end of Rome. Instead of a political struggle that was mostly fought with words and intrigue in the senate, now the Roman Empire was in a constant state of civil war.

[@namename2215]

I always love that Pompey's whole careful plan began to fail because Antony just completely forgot to do his job as Tribune. Cicero, leader of the moderates, had to yell at him across the room to shake Antony out of his rant to some random. One of Cicero's better moments in the show TBH.

[@fishingislife9554]

1:42 when the cod lobby votes any map other than nuketown:

[@patriciagonzalez4820]

THAT'S the speaker of the Senate -- not a "senile old fool"!

[@madavarams268]

The Roman senate did not have a speaker. They did have a magistrate for a similar role but he did not have much power. He was just a guy who begins discussions

[@Jew_Gi_Oh]

Caesar: It's treason then....... I AM THE SENATE!!!

[@NguyenMinh-vs1vm]

@tacidian7573Caesar: *autistic screech*

[@Barryhick186]

'There are no tricks in religion' gets me every time

[@mesa9724]

A few episodes later they secretly release birds behind temple of Jupiter.

[@romaboo2293]

seconds later they find loophole lol

[@MarcusCato275]

He's referencing Cicero's work "on the nature of the gods" where Cicero distinguishes between religion Vs superstition. Religion to Cicero is a formal set of practices and observances that have clear results and consequential actions. Worshippers do X specific action and the gods will do Y in return. If disaster strikes the state then it's the result of a prescribed practice that has been neglected or it's observance has been carried out without care. Superstition to Cicero is belief without regulation or ritual and because of that, various practises were used to appease the gods which included human sacrifice. The Romans observed the practises of other cultures (notably the Gauls and Carthaginians) and found some observances as horrifying and wrote them off as people fearing the anger of their gods (Superstition means "great fear") and were willing to use any means to avoid the wrath of their gods. Religion was a civilizing aspect of Roman culture that prescribed specific of practices to keep the gods appeased and ban certain practices. It meant no one can innovate and invent new rites to get people into doing something to earn the favour of the gods or take advantage of people's fears during times of crisis. Such innovations could be to decieve people or make people do something horrible. By sticking to predefined religious practices the people could always be reassured that there was a specific way to appease the gods and people with ill intent can't take advantage of them.

[@ardreambystander6988]

This series is truly a masterpiece. The sound, the costumes, the acting, the script and dialogue are all top tier. I fucking love Rome! Especially season 1

[@bram_412]

"The motion is carried by clear numbers," the old parliamentarian said with a flourish of his arms. Strikes me he found the condemnation of Caesar was proper, and its passage pleased and relieved him. They had to drag the solution out of him almost bodily. Very Pycelle

[@PKP405]

If C-SPAN was this interesting I'd tune in every day!

[@qeter129]

how you feelin now?

[@PKP405]

@@qeter129 I spoke too soon! 😂

[@taroman7100]

We dont have the balls to act out because we're not like the Romans, we're civilized---wink wink

[@ashleyburns6752]

I love how some of the same actors have played different characters set in Rome in multiple production.

[@niccolorichter1488]

Who? I dint know

[@Omegasparta]

Elizabeth Swan: this is madness!? Jack Sparrow: this is politics

[@Whoami691]

Cicero was a great lawyer and statesman. In a crumling republic he tried to keep everything together when everyone else chose sides. He didn't deserve his fate...

[@masterplokoon8803]

@@C-eo1rt he didn't he was never involved in the plot.

[@lilpapalstate628]

@@masterplokoon8803 he knew about the plot

[@N0TYALC]

@@lilpapalstate628 You’re wrong. He didn’t know about the plot, the conspirators didn’t trust him enough. He did support it however, writing “How I could wish that you had invited me to that most glorious banquet on the Ides of March!". So while he didn’t know about the plot, he definitely supported it. Turns out that when you break an oath and betray your honor to kill a political opponent who you owe your life to, your political opponents are likely to seek revenge.

[@N0TYALC]

@@masterplokoon8803 You don’t have to know about something in advance to support it. He loved the assassination, and he applauded the assassins. You know what you get when you applaud the murder of a man who spared your life? You get what you fucking deserve.

[@panama2468]

Yes he did. As every centrist, he was a waffling wavering pos that couldn't pick a side. Serves him right

[@e21big]

For thousands of year, politics has not changed

[@MrLolx2u]

Basically, you have to remember that up to this point, Caesar was a well-loved men to the common Romans but a tyrant to the senators of Rome. Caesar has been called many times to return back to Rome as his original aim of just securing the borders of Rome against the Gauls just before the Rhine and that should be it but Caesar went on and knocked out every tributaries and even main Gaullic and Saxon clans out of existence and eventually took 90% of Gaul by then. Of course, in the eyes of the senate, Caesar had betrayed the motion, amassed an army that could rival 10 Legions combined, held enough power alone to form a small nation, defied senate's calls to end the war and return home as a "hero" and also sowing discord between the senate itself. Some of the top senators of Rome like Pompey and Cicero knew about this and had always planned to pin Caesar down and get him back to prevent chaos in the senate but they couldn't find the right ways to do it except to declare him enemy of the state but there's a catch.... Cicero himself doesn't have an army and Pompey does but at this point, Pompey's army was way smaller than Caesar and Caesar's Legionnaires are no way less battle hardened than Pompey's Legionnaires thus if war broke out, Pompey could not take the blow alone much less that Cicero himself din't have any Legions to help out with. Also, despite Cicero giving support to Pompey's notion, he actually did not alienate Caesar himself and shown much of a more neutral side which was rather conflicting half the time as Cicero was literally playing both sides at the same time. Nevertheless, Pompey did raise the notion and as Caesar was still tying up stuff in Gaul, he sent Marcus Antonius/Mark Anthony back to Rome to take his spot as a Tribune to hold Caesar's powers under MA's care. Pompey knew that if he was to raise it, war will be instantly declared and shit would definitely hit the fan and he will instantly lose if war did indeed break out. Thus in this scene, when Pompey raised the notion, he was actually scared shitless as the camp that supports Caesar was heckling him consistently and he himself knew war would definitely break out and that's bad business thus he was lobbying for Cicero's support. However, Cicero did not cast the vote but abstained and walked out. HOWEVER, that's a problem as now Cicero has abstained, the vote suddenly swung to Pompey's favour of declaring Caesar "enemy of the state" which both sides hoped Anthony would "abuse" his senetoral and Tribune powers to veto the notion but before he could even voice it out, Caesar's camp saw the notion as getting passed with Cicero's walkout started to assault Pompey's supporters which became a full brawl and amidst the chaos, both Cicero and Pompey panicked and shouted at Anthony to quickly declare his veto but it was too late as the brawl became too wild to control that even with Anthony shouting at the top of his voice, it was muffled by the chaos.

[@donnymoney4222]

Sending this to My father.. very well said to a layman's perspective

[@taroman7100]

I love all your addtional detail. It's too bad they couldnt stay more to the history but that bores most Americans. The incredible twists and turns at this point are pivotal to the West. I get frustrated when there's a heavy use of sexual situations that did not exist such as Antony and the mother of Octavian, Atia. OMG Octavian would be turning over to see the writers have turned his mother into an upper class whore.

[@couragedy89]

It's a good detail that Antony lacks abilities in politics that he didn't immediately stand up and vetoed the motion until Cicero told him to. I mean, that is exactly why Caesar paid 500,000 to buy votes for Antony to be elected tribune.

[@jakechinn6561]

In one version of events Antony, being the hotheaded soldier he was, charged headlong into the fight and got stuck in. Nobody could get him to veto the motion until the fight was over which I find hilarious and very fitting with Antony's character.

[@cheeseburgermacpac607]

Or Caesar knew that and used Anthony as a mechanism to make a legal grab for power.

[@jmitterii2]

Either way, this is elite faction against elite faction... and who suffers... everyone else in such a ridiculous plutocracy... At least our system in the USA is so much better... I mean our system changed the tribune to congress... and the senate to... the senate... Wait...

[@couragedy89]

⁠@@cheeseburgermacpac607Well I doubt that, I could never tell what the tone of the show was going, but I am pretty sure neither Pompey nor Cesar was going for the idea of open civil war. Power grab through war had been a chance for people with lesser power not for people who were already at the pinnacle of the power like Cesar and Pompey. Granted, I admit that Cesar was in a precarious position since he was in France and not present in Rome, but I doubt it was nothing impossible to remedy once he negotiated his safe passage back to Italy had Antony served his purpose well as a Tribune.

[@slothfromthegoonies8201]

"The motion is carried by clear numbers." :L

[@811chelseafc]

I maintain that “there are no tricks in religion” said with the upmost sincerity is one of the funniest lines I’ve ever heard.

[@bannedfor30daysonfacebook41]

ikr

[@811chelseafc]

@@jannguerrero yeah but that line was written in the 21st century so I imagine the irony was intentional. Especially given that the show goes to great lengths how many literal tricks there were in the Roman religion.

[@joshuam4835]

​@@jannguerrero "Bibant, quoniam edere nollent"

[@TheVergile]

the show isnt entirely accurate here but in a sense it cuts right to the essence. roman politics has - over the last decades or maybe even centuries - been hollowed out and turned into a game to a dangerous degree. For the convenience of a handful of powerful men it had been broken apart and exploited to is limits. And only fee were able to really navigate the mess that was roman law at this point. The system swung from complete gridlock and months worth of senate meetings being nullified by constant vetoing to unilateral decisions pushed through by exploiting loopholes or straight up intimidation/violence. And before anyone knew it the few strings that held roman politics together snapped and all semblence of control vanished in an instant. The result was the downfall of the roman republic.

[@wote2760]

Huh, sounds like congress

[@Tarnatos14]

Well itdidnt vanisehd, it slowly transfered as techinacly even in byzanz hundres of years later they still called it "SPQR" (senat and people of rome) the repuplik as a fact vanished, but the repuplic as a ideology didnt vanished, many emperors even where judge by the history as how they treatet the senate and the senate statesman, the elite, wrote there narrative into the narrative of the emperors: thats why we se marc aurelius as great and Commodus as bad. Ofc it can also be just thruth, but it certanly is also the judge of the class behind the rulig poer of the emperor at that time: still the senat, still the assambly of the elites, still shown as such by the peoples election.

[@NguyenMinh-vs1vm]

@@wote2760or the Parliament. History truly repeats itself .

[@HeroicAge616]

This legitimately sounds like America

[@Nikotheleepic]

That's why they are aristocratic scum, and why caeser was a hero to humanity, he saved Rome for 1000 years after it and the entire western world for more.

[@INFEDnoX]

Slightly off-topic but it's interesting how the Korean subtitles use the Latin pronunciations ("Tullius Ki-ke-ro") and not the modernised pronuncations that the English language version does. Thought it was a neat little note.

[@jamescheddar4896]

yeah the modern "roman alphabet" actually borrows a handful of greek letters and uses and is full of contextual phonetics that never existed in original latin. most of the letters had a specific sound and their phonetics were dependent only on their position within the word. V U W were all written as V, the Z sound came from putting an S in the center of a word

[@OurSeaBee]

It's not a modernised pronunciation, it's English Latin. Classical Latin pronunciation wasn't used from the Middle Ages down to the 20th century. English Latin pronunciation is the basis for medical and legal Latin.

[@최로봇]

oh my god as I bilingual I was like "where are the Korean subtitles?? it isnt in youtube subtitles" lmao. then I realized it was literally in the video

[@최로봇]

@Tacidian we pronounce it as Kai-salr. I wrote it as salr because we separate the sa and the r.

[@최로봇]

@Tacidian we also use the name Caesar, which is pronounced Si-zer

[@as7river]

The Republic: So, Caesar is our enemy. Caesar: So, you have chosen death.

[@antoinemozart243]

Heeer no ! The senate killed Caesar !

[@giantWario]

​@@antoinemozart243 Yeah after Caesar beat every last one of them and decided to pardon them. And then the ones who assassinated him were all hunted down and killed along with their entire family. Because obviously they were. People need to understand that for the Romans, the Senate was a sacred place. You couldn't bring weapons in there and there were no guards because nobody expected anyone to break the rules. The Senators killing Caesar in the Senate would be the equivalent today of the Cardinals murdering the Pope in the Vatican. Sure there's technically nothing stopping them from doing it but it's just crazy to think about! Which is exactly why even Caesar's other enemies and rivals outside of the Roman Senate saw what the Senators did as a horrible act and helped hunt them down. The Senators were so frigging out of touch that they seriously thought they could just parade Caesar's body in the streets and be celebrated for it instead of being executed.

[@antoinemozart243]

@@giantWario you know nothing about roman history. 1) it is not the senators who were not allowed to have weapons but the soldiers to enter Rome 2) Caesar had already been threatened to be murdered in the Senate in 63 BCE 3) Caesar only forgave his enemies for political purposes. 4) If the aftermath of the assasination was not successful it is because Brutus didnt want to kill Octavian and Antony contrary to what Cassius wanted. 5) Caesar failed to impose monarchy because this monarchy was imposed by a general 6) if Octavian had been murdered, the Senate would have regained an anarchic power 7) Octavian only succeeded because he was called Caesar and a rightful one. 8) after Octavian the successors were declared illigitimate with few exceptions.

[@giantWario]

@@antoinemozart243 1) I didn't say they weren't allowed to have weapons in general, just not in the senate. And what do the soldiers have to do with it? 2) Threatening to kill someone was literally just a normal Tuesday in the Senate. That's got nothing to do with what I said. 3) Never argued against that, don't see why it matters. 4) Are you using the Shakespeare play as your source? Marc Anthony was very far away from the Senate with his army when Caesar was murdered and Octavian wasn't even in Italy. How do you think it would have been possible for them to assassinate the two at the same time as Caesar exactly? 5) Caesar never wanted to impose a monarchy. Marc Anthony did present him with a crown at one point but he refused it. If he had actually wanted to impose a monarchy, he would have. It really wouldn't have been especially hard to do for him. 6) Once again, are you using the Shakespear play as your source? No one even knew Caesar had chosen Octavian as his heir until his will was read! No one cared about Octavian while Caesar was still alive! 7) and 8) what does that have to do with anything? Next time you go on a long-winded rant could you at least make sure all your points are relevant?

[@antoinemozart243]

@@giantWario 1)the army was not allowed to enter Rome. This is why I said you confuse the Senate with the army as weapons are concerned.. 2) Antonius was present in Rome the day Caesar was assassinated. He was the current Consul 3) I base my statements on many historians , not Shakespeare 4) Octavian had zero power in 44 5) whe I talk of monarchy , I am referring not to a kingom in itself but to the absolute power tranfered to heirs. 6) if Caesar refused the diadem, it is only because he knew the Romans hated kings and this is why.......the conspirators chose Brutus as their leader. All romans knew that the last king of Rome was killed by a Brutus.

[@alexandredevert4935]

If I have a portable AI box thing, I want the voice of that old man

[@VanaeCavae]

To see Roman giants like Cato the Younger, Cicero, Mark Anthony and Pompey in the same room must have been an awesome sight in those ancient times.

[@mafik90]

That guy sounds like he has been smocking cigarettes since the time when he stopped being breast fed.

[@JXEditor]

2:38 Uh-huh….

[@avalle4493]

Is really important to understand that the senators believe that all of them where equal. So when 1 senator gain to much power (Scipio Africannus, The Grachi, Caesar) they will gang on him and destroyed him out of envy for being better than them.

[@ottokarl5427]

Scipio only got put into that list in retrospective. Since he never pushed too far up, he was mostly considered still an equal. Today historians are rather certain that if he had tried, he definetly could have been the first in the line of ambitious senators that would eventually end with Caesar and Augustus

[@Wayoutthere]

If only modern politics was this interesting haha.

[@7503funkymonkey]

Watch the Taiwanese Legislature. They through punches and furniture at each other.

[@Commievn]

Are you kiddin me? we're living in, arguably the most packed political action since 9/11 due to Trump Presidency.

[@nocturnalrecluse1216]

Wouter d.B. if only it wasn't.

[@EroomYrrah]

YOU ARE FAKE NEWS...got back to facebook.

[@rboosterman9944]

Modern US politics is fast approaching this. The impeachment of Julius Caesar by the Roman Senate was illegal because one of the Tribunes of the People was beaten up and prevented from vetoing the motion. The equivalent of this here in America would be if Robert Mueller couldn't get a proper impeachment and conviction vote from Congress... so instead, Mueller gets an arrest warrant from a judge nobody ever heard of and tries to use that to remove President Trump.

[@allsouls5997]

Today all the corrupt rulers are protected

[@Vrangsynn]

Hello Ukrainian parliament

[@Cx10110100]

At least its not poisoned by CRT and Intersectionality...yet

[@tomaszzalewski4541]

Hello polish Sejm :(

[@tatata1543]

Fun fact, Cicero was pronounced Kikero.

[@tcbbctagain572]

Yes just like how Ceasar was pronounced as "Kesar" or in classic Latin his name was written as Caesar

[@Desertfox18]

​@@tcbbctagain572 Caesar is actually pronounced "Kaiser" not "Kesar". "Ae" makes "Ai" sound in Latin.

[@mrt8944]

Anthony veto the MOTION-UH, Stand up veto the MOTION-UH

[@rakaman27]

Pompey be like : we dun goofed

[@bezero2005]

Antony must not be harmed! Pulo:😂

[@stillbrian9448]

Wish we had all of the seasons planned for this series

[@Asmodaeus89]

Give him the FLOOR!!!

[@mantabond]

Italians. Things haven't changed much since.

[@herpyderpy2869]

Game of Thrones is a political battle in a feudal monarchy, Rome is a political battle in a republic

[@mapoleo]

*a public enemy of the senate and people of rome* i think it's just not just the senate, but like an atom of the senate my friend

[@MalakianM2S]

"Anthony must not be harm".... meanwhile, Pullo... "hold my beer"

[@docilecatfish1370]

I always love how Antony was watching in complete awe for most of the senate meeting as though he was a Football spectator and not a tribune

[@RiseLazarusRise]

I must not be harmed.

[@Super165i]

This was just recommended to me recently

[@ledfloyd9035]

*it's a bold play cotton, let's see if it works out for them.*

[@zhouwu]

Is it me, or did Pompey try to enact Machiavellian measures, only for it to backfire, because the plan he made to fail succeeded? What did Paul write about the wise in 1 Corinthians chapter 1? "God grasps the wise in their own craftiness." 🤔🤔🤔 🤦‍♂️🤦‍♂️🤦‍♂️

[@elisjongoseni3225]

All that Cicero would care, was only Catilyna.

[@cou2707]

It's strange that Pompey has to tell his men not to harm a Tribune of the plebs when doing so was a death sentence.

[@obiwanfx]

by this time the tribune was an agent/dog of ceasar who was supposed to become either a rebel or an exile (things played out rather differently but that's hindsight). That and the fact that antony's position was so obviously bought by ceasar nobody took him seriously (which again,played out rather differently later on...)

[@rogeriopenna9014]

We need a series following the Collen McCullough books... starting with the "First Man of Rome" and the ascension of Gaius Marius, early life of Sulla, the wars against the Cimbri and Teutones... then going to "The Grass Crown" with the whole Social War, King Mithriades of Pontus, Sulla getting some proeminence then becoming Consul, Gaius Marius getting jealous of his command of the war in the East and trying to take it from Sulla, resulting in Sulla invading Rome... etc

[@dubya85]

Agreed

[@petermetzger8550]

Well, I think I will give them a read, although I would even prefer Robert Harris' Cicero-trilogy to be made into a mini-series. I really, really like his style and approach to historical matters.

[@senoritasulod4829]

they're too good to be carried out, there is no actor who could have book Caesar's charisma

[@taroman7100]

Now that would be epic and welcomed. These numb nuts lazy asses know nothing of how the West was won.

[@isaacio8924]

The butterfly effect is a fascinating thing. Because of this motion, in some 10 years time, they would all be dead.

[@lioneye101]

Does anyone remember when tv and movie portrayal was this good? Oh I miss these days. Before the dark days, before the Wokempire

[@98cents]

It's interesting that they even had to play these weird games in the senate house. All this just to show that "majority" support was in favor of Caesar coming back for trial, when no one that instigated it actually wanted that to happen - at least, not in the way it did.

[@MJSpiritual]

I imagine most people in government would get along so much better if they were allowed to blow off a bit of steam like this now and again. Like hockey hahaha.

[@FinleyMcB]

Why would you get the guy with the weakest voice to be the speaker of the house? Can I get you a cough drop, sir?

[@thomlichtenberg6765]

"This is a religious matter. There are no tricks in religion." 😂

[@antred11]

Hehe yeah, that is a hilarious line.

[@BrettCagwin49ers]

Cato is depicted as old and Cicero as young when the opposite was true. Cicero predated Caesar's emergence and Cato followed Caesar as a younger upstart.

[@N0TYALC]

I personally choose to believe that Cato was born as a grumpy old bastard

[@attigator]

Cicero (106 BC) close to the same age as Caesar (100 BC) in matter of fact

[@taroman7100]

@@attigator I thought Cato was a bit older than Caesar not by much. He was related to Servillia, Caesars main squeeze. All those Romans were related in some way or another!

[@drakashrakenburgproduction5369]

Biggest mistake of their lives!

[@user-zp5ql2xi2s]

The Congress looks fun 😂

[@blacklight4720]

Evey time I watch a political cutscene from HBO Rome, I immediately want to watch "Historia Civilis".

[@Morunic777]

I wish politics was this chaotically entertaining. That way we can tell that politicians really care about the country.

[@firingallcylinders2949]

Can someone explain to me why Cicero joined the motions' side and then yells for Antony to veto it. If he didn't want it to go through why didn't he stay seated?

[@mshin291]

Typical politics: Intimidation by doing/saying something radical, but with no practical effect. On one hand, Cicero and his 'moderates' were cautious of Caesar's power expanding to quickly. They wanted Caesar to back down and let him know that he is losing politically. On the other, they understand that Caesar has an army of battle hardened veterans at his side, and will fight for his life if need be. They also do not want to actually kill Caeser(just intimidate him). So Cicero joining the motion will show Caesar that the absolute majority of the Senate has a low opinion of him. Since the motion will not be vetoed anyway there won't be any lasting consequences. At least that's what Cicero thought.

[@brucetucker4847]

In previous scene Pompey persuades Cicero, who very much wants to avoid provoking Caesar into outright war, to vote for the motion by explaining that Antony will surely veto it and so prevent the war, but if Cicero and all the moderates vote for it that will show Caesar that the entire Senate (aside from his lackeys) is united against him and thus force him to back down and accept a compromise that leaves him his governorship and immunity from prosecution but removes most of his legions and prevents him from running for consul. The anti-Caesar senators have different motives: Cicero and Pompey just want to keep Caesar from completely dominating the Senate and the Roman state, while Cato (in the black toga), Metellus Scipio, and the other arch-conservatives loathe Caesar and want to see him completely destroyed.

[@firingallcylinders2949]

@@mshin291 Makes sense, thanks

[@moibe182]

And they said Rome was very advanced on democracy!! I imagine how were the others! 🫠

[@princekalender2154]

What a worm was Cicero. Thank the Gods he got what he deserved.

[@Auriono]

"KENNEDY, VETO THE RESIGNATION! STAND DOWN, VETO THE RESIGNATION!"

[@Mario_1611]

"There are no tricks in religion" 🤦🏾😂

[@Neagnosis]

I love the show, but it should be made aware that Pompey, and several other key Pompeians, actually chose to ignore the veto because they wanted the bill to be rattified. The Pompeian and Caesarian sides in the senate argued bitterly for months, using vetoes to disarm both sides at every turn. The reason for this brawl was that a bill was about to be finally passed, and to drown out the veto admist the mayhem was either intentional or a happy accident. Fun fact, the instigation for the fall of the republic, when boiled down to a single moment, can be attributed to Cato being petty during a last ditch effort negotiation behind closed doors

[@seanchan7167]

'There are no tricks in religion' HMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM

[@chriszablocki2460]

He's the dude in the 1984 dodge b250 project van.

[@choysakanto6792]

Philippine Senate in a nutshell

[@kamranzameer2227]

I love this show. We want more seasons.

[@Omnipotentmonkey]

"there are no tricks in religion" Say what now? XD

[@cgavin1]

There was a time, young sir, when religion was entirely man made. It was a very serious business indeed.

[@MarcusCato275]

Cicero in the 'nature of the gods' discusses the etymology of the the word religion. He discusses two concepts which are superstition and religion. Superstition meaning 'great fear' was practised when people feared natural phenomena which they attributed it to some spiritual or deistic cause and so gave worship aimlessly in order to placate them. Religion means 're' meaning to to-do something over again and 'legio' meaning to read or to look so religion means to 're-read, re-look, lookover again, re-consider etc'. This sets religion as a structured institution where you critique and analyse your practises where you perform religion deeds or cultus according to prescribed rituals rather than on instinct or fear eg. Superinstinctio or superstition. This is represented in t pax deorum or peace of the gods were the Roman god's sets the rubrics of religious worship and it's regulation they expect people to perform and also if any woe befalls the people the gods explain its is attributed to them and sets a strict guideline on how to appease them rather than where superstition is concerned to do whatever you want that might placate the gods. The pax deorum is like the Jewish or Christian covenant where God sets regulations on his worship rather than allowing people to make it up on the hoof. That is why there are no tricks in religion because religion is strictly organized and has strict rubrics and regulations which everyone has to follow and can't insert new innovations which might be a ploy to trick the masses worshipping.

[@LLiivveeeevviiLL]

No tricks in religion, religion itself though...

[@shivmalik9405]

Wow, I didn’t know the Romans spoke modern English in a British accent.

[@scottmatheson3346]

what accent did you think they used when they spoke modern English?

[@rocinante4609]

Why does Cicero support the motion and then asks Anthony to veto it?? I still don't know. Did he have a change of heart within seconds?

[@Daniel-du7pv]

He was just trying to intimidade Caesar, not start a civil war.

[@pappy374]

@@Daniel-du7pv Yeah. They just wanted Caesar to see that the Senate was against him and therefore he should reconsider his actions.

[@vylbird8014]

As in modern politics: Sometimes politicians support a law that they know has no hope of passage, as a way to publicly demonstrate their position on a matter. That's what happened here. Cicero supported the motion, in the expectation that it would surely be vetoed. He never intended for it to actually pass. For a modern comparison, think of how many British politicians supported the Brexit referendum so they could win the right-wing vote, happy in the knowledge that there was no way the referendum would actually pass because a substantial majority of the public opposed leaving the EU at the time. Then it somehow did pass anyway by the slimmest of margins, leaving all those politicians running around like headless chickens - they never intended to actually get what they were campaigning for!

[@DomWeasel]

@@vylbird8014 I never really believed in democracy after a lifetime watching clueless politicians making decisions about subjects they knew nothing about, but then they handed the decision about the future of the nation to the people, made up of morons even more clueless than them. For example, British fishermen were pro-Brexit and now in the aftermath they're struggling because the largest market for their catch was the EU, which they didn't know when they voted. Or all those businessmen who were in favour of it because they were anti-immigration, who now are facing worker shortages because immigration is down massively, meaning there's no longer a pool of cheap, exploitable Eastern Europeans to employ, meaning we're short of everything from lorry drivers to fruit pickers to slaughterers. People had no idea what ramifications leaving the EU would have because they had no idea what being in the EU meant in the first place. They just believed what they saw on the side of buses. Hell, because there's no more Free Travel, continental schools aren't having trips to the UK anymore because it's too complicated to arrange. They're going to Ireland instead and spending their money there. Just like all the other tourists who find it a hassle to visit the UK now.

[@jt7638]

After which time, it will be the duty and obligation of every Roman, to do him harm or to kill him, if they are able!

[@ToquzOghuzKhaganatekhan]

the roman politics looks quite like modern western politics , senates fight on the stage

[@acoustic296]

not only in western it also happens in some other countries around the world.

[@edwardcohen1184]

0:04-0:10 0:54-1:00 2:08-2:23 2:34-2:40 Someone get that old man a Ricola… 🙄🤦‍♂️😁😂😂🤣🤣😏😏🤪😁

[@Godunow100]

Funny thing is that in reality of tv show the whole civil war could still be prevented because Pompey could used HIS consular veto (which he did in the first episode when Cato proposed the same motion, even if in reality consul could not veto acts of the senate)

[@ChairmanJMao]

Godunow100 the problem was that would undermine the message pompey would be trying to send to Ceaser. Pompey is trying to imply that the Senate is unified behind him, less to Ceasar, more to the people. having Pompey veto the Senate would work against that clear cut message.

[@Priyo866]

Also Pompey, having been a far more prominent general than Caesar in the past, still able to exert his skill, and wealthy from his large conquests in east, was very confident that Caesar would lose if he attacked Rome. The main problem was that most of his loyal legions were out in the provinces and had to be called back slowly, and didn't have the level of experience and veteran skill anymore. Compare that to the freshly battle-hardened legions of Caesar that were gathered and unified.

[@seangannon6005]

प्रियदर्शी as well as the fact that while pompey was definitely a great general, caesar was just something else.

[@EroomYrrah]

I would have rounded up every bow and arrow in the city.