Ronald Dworkin's attack on HLA Hart's Theory of Law

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This is a video lecture about the criticism or objection (mostly from "Model of Rules I," which appears in Dworkin's book "Taking Rights Seriously") that Ronald Dworkin makes of HLA Hart's version of legal positivism. The video explains Hart's theory of adjudication, his concept of the open texture of law, and Dworkin's distinction between rules and principles, and how that distinction is used in his objection to Hart. This is part of a Philosophy of Law Course.

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Glad I could help! Good luck with the exam tomorrow!

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[@profjeffreykaplan]

Thanks for the kind words. You're welcome!

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[@profjeffreykaplan]

You're very welcome!

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Ommfg thank you for your explanation of these theory. I admire both Hart and Dworkin. I want to recommend you to all students who are studying jurisprudence.

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oh this is the best explanation of dworkin's criticism i've come across.

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Thank you for this video, I had to do a paper on the Hart-Dworkin debate and I wasn't getting anywhere (I'm not a philosophy fan) until I saw this. So thank you very much.

[@profjeffreykaplan]

Glad to help!

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[@profjeffreykaplan]

Thank you for the kind words! Glad you liked it.

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[@profjeffreykaplan]

Glad this was helpful!

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[@profjeffreykaplan]

Glad to hear that!

[@waggishsagacity7947]

Somewhat cynically it seems at first blush, the jurist Roscoe Pound declared that "The law is what any judge in the land deems it to be at any given time." Thus, appeals could reverse trial courts' decisions, and the highest court can reverse or modify a lower court's ruling. And then there are case that are never appealed for whatever reason, including lack of funds. So there you have it in a nutshell.

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[@profjeffreykaplan]

Glad I could help!

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Brilliantly explained! Top class teaching.

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Great lessons.....easy to follow through and understand comprehensively!

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[@profjeffreykaplan]

My pleasure!

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I should have watched this video when I started the legal argument course, I missed oportunities to improve my marks. Now I understand the theories but it's late.

[@variztia]

As Hayek, who was in general quite favorable to Hart's position, put it in a footnote (1976): «If by 'system of rules' is understood a collection of articulated rules, this would certainly not constitute the whole law. Ronald M. Dworkin, who in an essay entitled 'Is Law a System of Rules?' (in R. S. Summers, ed., Essays in Legal Philosophy, Oxford and California, 1968) uses the term 'system' as equivalent to 'collection' (p. 52) and seems to accept only articulated rules as rules, shows convincingly that a system of rules so interpreted would be incomplete and requires for its completion what he calls 'principles'. (...) I prefer to use the term system for a body of rules that are mutually adjusted to each other and possess an order of rank, and of course I include in 'rules' not only articulated but also not yet articulated rules which are implicit in the system or have yet to be found to make the several rules consistent. Thus, while I wholly agree with the substance of Professor Dworkin's argument, I should, in my terminology, affirm that the law *is* a system (and not a mere collection) of (articulated and unarticulated) rules.»

[@Blackcomanche]

Did Hayek make this footnote in The Constitution of Liberty?

[@variztia]

@@Blackcomanche It is in the second volume of Law, Legislation and Liberty, originally published in 1976.

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[@Alealex26]

Ingenious way of teaching. But I have the following question. Did you have to write a thesis on the Hart Dworkin debate. How would you go about it? What do you think is essential that should be included in the thesis? Do you have preferences?

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[@profjeffreykaplan]

Glad you like them!

[@serversurfer6169]

🤔 Principles undoubtedly shape the legal system, but the principles are endemic to the _shapers,_ not the legal system itself. This is how you get judges making decisions that create law that is not in line with the principles of society at large, and consequently struggle to satisfy the rule of recognition. (The courts can make whatever narrow-minded judgements they like, but it doesn't matter if the rest of us simply ignore them.) This applies to the legislature as well. 🤷‍♂

[@pallabidutta968]

The "rules of recognition" are explicitly mentioned in every Constitution. While the principles and values are implicit in every law, whose utility or practical applicability lies in creating a fair and just society.

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I'm curious of how did You get the text of phrases in the correct way in they glass, i don't think You wrote it backwards, didnt You?

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Dear number one life saver, Can you please do a video about Scott J. Shapiro, The hart-Dworkin Debate - A short Guide for the perplexed?

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Loved the explanation....very clear and easy to digest. I just have to ask....I know it has to have been asked already....what about this amazing ability to write backwards? Am I missing something?! This is like Destin (smartereveryday) learning to ride is backwards bicycle. I had to watch the video twice because the first time I was too distracted at trying to figure out if there's a mirror involved somehow or if Dr. Kaplan is really writing backwards!! Will watch more for sure!!

[@profjeffreykaplan]

You are not the first to ask about this! Here is the explanation: kzbin.info/www/bejne/bJDHZWeYocaSfaM

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[@profjeffreykaplan]

Glad it was helpful!

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The other day I learned from Dworking why Law in the US is so much fun! (fun for those who like philosophy). (from an interview by Bill Moyers recorded in 1987)

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Are there any book/articles of McCormick that you would suggest? And thanks for the great lecture!

[@profjeffreykaplan]

I am a fan of his 1994 book "Legal Reasoning and Legal Theory"

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[@mdbest0000]

Great Video. I had a question- Can Hartian judges not rely on principles directly while adjudicating the cases, even if they aren’t part of the legal system per se?

[@ธนัยนันท์แสวงเชิดพงษ์]

Thanks thanks thanks Many many thanks

[@danielaavila7935]

Hello, thank you for the video🙏🏻 I’m just wondering what would be considered real life examples of hard cases ? I’m just having trouble deciding if the case I’m looking at is a hard case

[@profjeffreykaplan]

The most famous real-life example is probably Riggs v Palmer, which I have this video about: kzbin.info/www/bejne/b4m0aKCBittrl5o

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[@andreasmaaan]

How does Dworkin distinguish principles from (for example) values, attitudes, and biases?

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A beautiful explanation !

[@profjeffreykaplan]

Thanks!

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Good work

[@kaverious]

what i understood---- dworkin says that the institutions which will take up disputes and have to make a judgment that is not driven by a pre-concieved rule, they are making a historic or landmark judgement here. this judgement is only driven by what we call Principles which are basically in the spirit of the preamble or constitution or in spirit of justice..... these principle can be ,for eg.- equality is a principle and the SC is making a historic judgment which will later make a new law which is not based over a rule but a PRINCIPLE. and this PRINCIPLE was never talked about or stipulated by Hart. Hart has failed to properly formulise the middle road between primary and secondary rules since he couldn't talk about WHAT HAPPENS WHEN THERE IS AN EXCEPTION IN FRONT OF LAW MAKERS/ LAW AMENDERS. AM I RIGHT????

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Do you really write backwords ¿?¿?™

[@AspirantArmaanSingh]

It’s an inverted video 😂 He’s writing with left.

[@samueldesmondtuah1421]

For theory of law to be solid it must explain laws in democracies and dictatorship. This is what I tell my students. Dworkin theory seemed perfect if you only consider common law systems but very difficult to apply in Nazi Germany.

[@evelinalungu6850]

Thank you!

[@justin1075]

Thanks from Hong Kong

[@starrynight5615]

What book would you recommend for understanding criminal jurisprudence

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So good!! Thank you so much!

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I have an exam tomorrow and this is so helpfull omg

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Thank you! ⚖

[@davidcherry3107]

Nice Job on the Hebrew, Rabbi. The Ten Commandments don't directly state one is prohibited from working on the sabbath. Actually, I think the prohibition regarding laboring on the Sabbath may have been merely halakhic, but I'm not sure. Christians assume it comes from the Ten Comandantments, because that's the only Jewish law they know, other than don't be gay. As a former Bible-toting, fundamentalist, evangelical Christian, I can attest to that. I can also say, the Christians I knew, having hijacked the Jewish religion, didn't have much interest in Jewish Law beyond the Ten Commandments. They just assumed that the sole purpose of Judaism was to serve as a pathway to God's "real" plan of salvation. I refer to all this in the past tense, because being an atheist for the past 20 years, I don't feel qualified to speak to the mindset of current Christians. I also wouldn't want to bag on a group of which I am no longer a member. Though I'm no longer a Christian, I spent my entire life, childhood to age 42, among their ranks. I began to spend a lot of my time acting as an amateur apologist, which led me to dive deeply into studying the Bible. I even learned a bit of Hebrew and Greek, to I could study passages in the original languages. Nothing is more powerful, in terms of leading to deconversion, than thoroughly reading the Bible.

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great video! finally got a 1.1

[@evelinalungu6850]

I have a question, in what chapter/page does Dworkin talk about strong discretion?

[@bottomhead2518]

I don't see how "principles" make the "rules of recognition" fall apart. Both seem legit. To me, "principles" could be tucked into Hart's theory. Am I missing something?

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very helpful!

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where does Neil McCormick talk about the RoR?

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He is the best!

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Top stuff Good sir!

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you are a king thank you for this video

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What is the best book to study jurisprudence

[@profjeffreykaplan]

The first half of Scott Shapiro's "Legality" is a very good introduction to the discipline. Also, You can go through my Philosophy of Law course: kzbin.info/aero/PL7YPshZMeLIYDwqvtqIHm9SOQpSeKVKU0 or just my lectures on Hart's "The Concept of Law" kzbin.info/aero/PL7YPshZMeLIbkhDcwdyhyCFlA6Na9nvn8

[@starrynight5615]

@@profjeffreykaplan What book would you recommend for understanding criminal jurisprudence

[@starrynight5615]

@@profjeffreykaplan thank you please recommend for this too

[@gcvrsa]

Of course principles are part of our system of jurisprudence, at least, in the United States, and it would be silly to suggest otherwise. Take for example, the Declaration of Independence. It's manifestly true that the Declaration carries no force of law, yet the principles therein described (chiefly, equality, unalienable rights, life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, etc., but also a laundry list of specific offenses against the rights of Americans by the King and Parliament, many of which will eventually be specifically addressed in the Bill of Rights) are indubitably the foundational principles upon which the Constitution, the actual law, is predicated.

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Does This guy actually write backwards?

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The video is inverted. He’s writing with his left hand 😂

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Thankyou you’re a lifesaver

[@profjeffreykaplan]

You are welcome!

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Brilliant

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He talks as if a vehicle necessarily has an engine, or at least that having an engine is relevant to judging whether something is a vehicle. But a bicycle is a vehicle.

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Holy cow has this critique never been more relevant than in 2023-2024. I'm scared to know how future me will react to this comment that I put down, whether it'll be seen as a fluke or the beginning of the end of the rule of law.

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Great video thanks man

[@profjeffreykaplan]

Glad you enjoyed it!

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I am studying law in Turkey but my B1 English did not help me understand this video. I have an exam in two hours. god!

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This helps

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Thank youuuuu so much

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Quite helpful 👍🏻

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Thank you. Save hours of readings .

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Dworkin Hart or Hart-ly Dworkin

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👌🏼

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The vehicle example (as a hard case) is not convincing.

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Isn't this guy great?

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Saved meeeee 😭😭😭

[@TheNaturalLawInstitute]

Jeffrey: Pet Peeve: Why don't you cover Blackstone, which contains the logic of the English and American constitutions, but you cover the philosophers who seek to circumvent that logic? This is a universal criticism of every major institution. The curriculum at the top half dozen law schools barely passes for sophistry. It's embarrassing.... ;)

[@Max_Le_Groom]

You best thank God for cutesy anime songs.