Eps 347: 243 Win and Hydrostatic Shock

[@daithi1966]

Ron Spomer is the absolute master of disagreeing without being a jerk.

[@jamesyarbrough4777]

Ive seen many a deer taken with 243 win in 70 grain nossler ballistic tip, 85 grain speer boat tail, 87 VMAX, 90 soft point, 95 grain SST and 100 grain soft point. On the shoulder and behind. I dont see why people dislike it.

[@ThemantleofElijah]

Hey I’m planning to hunt with 243 this year I’ve got several bullets to chose from I wonder how a 70gr Sierra hpbt will work

[@jamesyarbrough4777]

@@ThemantleofElijah it will work behind the shoulder. a heavier soft point is less picky about shot placement. they all work

[@ThemantleofElijah]

@@jamesyarbrough4777 thank you I recently picked up a 243 brand new Remington 700 with 8 twist I did grab some extra bullets to handload got some 80gr cx Hornady along with interlocks 100gr and then some 108 gr eldm so I have lots to choose from

[@jamesyarbrough4777]

@@ThemantleofElijah 80 grain cx would be my top pick. super fast and deep penetrating.

[@ThemantleofElijah]

@@jamesyarbrough4777 good deal I’m gonna load some up certain on that I was gonna try some Barnes lrx 95 gr but I grabbed these I think they will be some good deer medicine

[@freeslave8824]

A master course in how to disagree without being disagreeable! Keep up the great work Ron!

[@REDNECKROOTS]

Speed kills! Peroid . The faster u can push it ,the more DRT u will see. As long as the bullet is put ware it supposed to go.

[@mike3f0]

When I was just a kid, in the sixties, I had the choice between a deer gun in .243 or a deer gun in .308. I still have that .243.

[@BigdaddyE71]

I shoot a 243 with either an 80 or 85 grain Barnes tsx or Hornady GMX. ALWAYS a 1 shot stop on whitetails here in Mississippi. Never had one make it past 50 yds.

[@luketilley9137]

Yes Sir. 1977 Winchester model 70 243

[@BHF40]

Same in Pa, .243 100 grain norma white tail. 1 hit stops em everytime and in short order. 100+ yards.

[@georgecoons6872]

dont matter what bullet you use. a T800 human combat chassis run and keep running like a deer in a forest fire.

[@JimVaught-qm6gf]

Same in TX with any bullet never had one make it past 30-40 yards unless rhey were running when hit. Most just dropped on the spot.

[@benthere404]

​@@GatlinMcDoubleStack I'm a big bore guy, mostly hunt woods with 44 mag rifle. I have a Savage 16 that will put 5 80 grain ttsx in a half dollar at 200 yards, my question is will that ttsx bust through both shoulders for high shoulder DRT? Heard lead ones break up on the first shoulder.

[@KathrynLiz1]

The amount of hydrostatic shock depends a lot on the right match between velocity and bullet construction...... Weatherby had trouble with the bullets of the time disintegrating due to excessive velocity at close ranges. This was partly cured by the like of Barnes "X" and Nosler partition bullets etc.... there are lots of them now. Placement is king... when the cheap milsurp 303 ran out here in NZ, the government deer cullers went to the little .222 which is superbly accurate and dropped deer in their tracks with head and neck shots within 200 yards. Quite a few hunters here, in the less open country, use the .223 to great effect, usually with 65gr bullets from a 20" barrel. A bit light in my old fashioned view, but they seem to work. Bullets these days are so much better than used to be case when many of these rounds were born and I was young and fit...the little .243 Win being a case in point. With the modern advanced bullets in the 100-110gr range they will drop anything that lives in NZ (up to Wapiti....Elk) with well placed shots. Get an expanding bullet over 60gr into the "boiler room" at over 2000fps and no deer will go far....

[@kenlansing1216]

There must be some reason the .243 Win. has outlived so many similar rounds.

[@gordonwells1626]

Yeah it works very well, especially on animals under 100kgs, if you do your part.

[@jefferywilliams7687]

243 & 6mm Ron is spot on when it comes to bullet construction. I bet a 90 grain Swift Scirocco II will go thru the front shoulder and exit. In addition an 85 grain Nosler Partition around 3,300 fps a try if shots are not impacted by wind over 250 yards. Not much recoil. Guarantee it will go thru a Whitetail hit in the shoulder. If wind and distance come into play shoot the 100 Grain Partition.

[@tacticalmattfoley]

Construction of the Swift Scirocco is perfect for this application.

[@HobbitHomes263]

I know I've bragged on my grandma on your channel before but here I go again. On Christmas 1956 my grandpa gave her a shiny new Savage 99 in 243 to replace her ancient beat up M94 30-30. For the next 37 years ...EVERY YEAR my grandma filled her elk tag with that rifle with WIlliams peep sights. It is important to say that she was the sneakiest woman who ever trod a game trail. She had the skills and patience to work in close and the marksmanship to hit exactly where she intended. She never lost an elk in all those years. SOmetimes I think people expect too much of their technology. I used to be a gold instructor. Guys would constantly ask me if I thought they should buy the clubs that the current golf hero was swinging. I would ell them that when you have Tigers SWING then you buy his clubs. Same goes for hunting. If you have practiced and perfected your sneak, caliber is nearly irrelevant. Many of the elk she tyook with both 30-30 and 243 were shot in bow range. Much of that she attributed to making her own lye soap on the ranch. I had zero scent so she washed all of ther hunting clothes and her person with the scent free lye soap before she would hunt and at the end of the day she would put all her clothes in a bag full of dirt, prarie grass, sage and a some bark shavings off a live lodgepole. She also said that elk are used to the smell of smoke so she would stand around the fire for a bit in the evening before she bagged her gear. SHe also said that she was so short that elk probably couldn't see her so all she had to do was defeat their nose and ears. Whatever it was man, she had the gift. Lots of peoplpe practice shooting but I never met a client in camp who practiced HUNTING... end of rant... I now return you to your regularly scheduled program

[@adamwilliams5417]

Excellent read

[@HobbitHomes263]

@@adamwilliams5417 thank-you. she was an amazing human being but ranch women always are

[@arthurshingler2025]

I agree with you, Ron and your view on the 308, 7mm-08, 260, etc....

[@giovannitallino6606]

It is so refreshing to watch Ron Spomer, especially after watching a couple of those macho gun gurus on KZbin who in front of the camera speak two octaves below their normal speech and try to sound like John Wayne or Sam Elliot. Ron has a quality that is not found easily among so-called gun experts on the Internet: humility. He does not need to sound like an expert to impress his audience--he is an expert who bases his statements on solid evidence and on his own massive experience. Thanks, Ron!

[@RonSpomerOutdoors]

Humble thanks, Giovanni. Appreciate the support.

[@derekrobinson5628]

Thanks Ron, long time fan, but this post resonates on so many levels. I can relate to every comment on this post. There's just too much to comment and agree upon. Just thankyou for your knowledge, cheers and regards from New Zealand/ Aotearoa.🙂👍

[@heinrichstoltz1356]

Thanks Ron for another great discussion. I’ve been hunting for a long time (including commercial culling), and spent many hours guiding other hunters in South Africa. Hydrostatic Shock exists in theory, however, animals are not a single vessel filled with a homogenous fluid. There are gasses present, and the chest cavity is not fluid filled. You can apply the hydrostatic theory to the heart, because depending upon the heart stroke it can be fully filled with fluids. However, you cannot apply a constant compression ratio to the impact in the skin, muscle, bones, tendons, chest cavity and then the vital organs.

[@aronsingletary]

Right! Hydrostatic shock counts when you hit the heart. I haven't taken many deer but the two I shot with a 243 at 50 yards didn't have discernable hearts which implies something more happened than just a quarter inch hole being bored through the heart. It still all comes down to shot placement and I guess if you miss there is no replacement for displacement.

[@RonSpomerOutdoors]

Thanks Heinrich. That heartbeat theory seems closest to explaining hydroshock. Striek it during its compression stroke and you overwhelm blood vessels in the brain, causing stroke. Some post mortem evidence to support that, too. This likely explains why the vast majority of my heart-shot deer have not collapsed immediately.

[@joelpeterson8424]

Wow! That question of the week bell made me sit up straight! Gotta prepare for that. Thanks for your great program.

[@dominicdevito]

Not a grain weight problem, but I've seen a 90 gr SST grenade on deer a shoulder. We found the deer the next day and followed it up with a neck shot. After dissecting the shoulder that bullet never entered the thoracic cavity. No hate to Hornady, or cup and core bullets in general, but after seeing that I would highly suggest close range shots with impact velocity over 3k to chose the projectile wisely. Love the channel, Ron!

[@jamiehurtt3530]

Would've been different if you were using a 100 grain nosler partition guaranteed

[@FISHUNTREECOUNTRY]

​@@jamiehurtt3530Facts. Or Fed Fusion.

[@daye8132]

I've seen similar results, in my 2 cases the rifle had a 18 inch bbl length. On a 243 that overboor to begin with, I think it needs at least a 22 inch bbl to keep the velocity up JMPO, YMMV

[@jamiehurtt3530]

@@daye8132 Use the 100 graim nosler partition and you'll never lose another deer with the 243 And shoot straight

[@WayStedYou]

SST doing exactly what its designed to do, increase hornadys bank account while selling you a interlock with a platic tip for more money

[@williamdurdin1964]

Another fabulous informative video Thnx Ron

[@11x33mm]

Thank you i've learned so much from your Shorts and your podcast! It reminds me of growing up in the 60s and 70s. We used to be able to shoot at school in the 60s. But today's gap is so far apart. It's hard to imaginebut I remember every time your pod or show comes on! and all the good things in life as a kid as it involves rifles and shooting. It was definitely a gun culture back then. Unlike today, it is still there but not the same. There's an saying "You can go home but you can't go home" right? Have a blessed day❤

[@tacticalmattfoley]

Same. Listening to someone else will give a person an expanded view if we keep an open mind.

[@richardfrieman]

My brother in law just shot a buck straight in the shoulder this past fall with a 243 within 100 yards. Can’t remark about the bullet weight, but the buck dropped in place, primarily due to the loss of use of that front leg and bled out within less than a minute afterwards. During processing, we discovered that the bullet sent shards of bone deep into the chest cavity which actually seemed to have aided hemorrhaging. Fragments of lead and jacket were found strewn throughout the chest cavity alongside the bone fragments. I was quite surprised about the damage considering that the bullet must have deformed instantly upon impact with the bone.

[@walterkleban2746]

I have taken over 20 deer with 90 grain Sorroco .243 bullets with most dropping inplace with none running more than 50 yds. Two of those had holes in the hearts.

[@sampacheco7757]

I took a nice Oregon Blacktail this season with a 243 55 grain bullet. Spine shot him and dropped him in his steps at 50 yards. Oregon is steep dark timber country, so I wasn't worried about penetration of a 55 grain at close range. 243 does a great job. I've taken Blacktail with 30-06 as well as 243 now since moving to this great hunting state. I wouldn't take a 300-yard shot with a 243, but that's just my personal decision. Love this channel. Ron is like America's grandpa giving his bits of wisdom. Love it.

[@texasyotehunter2964]

My parents gifted me my first rifle at age 15, a Remington 700 .243. I put a 3x9x40 on it that I bought from Gibson’s Discount Store (all back in the early 70’s). I still have that rifle and scope but it has been retired for sentimental reasons and to hand down to my kids. But, I bought another just like it as a replacement. Love the .243 and it’s definitely a great hunting caliber.

[@ArcticNemo]

.243 is the favorite youth rifle in my family and often 'borrowed' by the grown-ups for anything smaller than elk. (Though I believe it fine for those with good bullets) I find it light and long-reaching with little enough barrel wear for three lifetimes. A king among midweights; not magical, but adequate.

[@adamweatherford2795]

I don't see how anyone can argue with Ron. He researches like no other and if he is wrong, he is quick to acknowledge it and correct it. I'll take every bit of info he has to offer.

[@philipsteele5704]

Ron, you are exactly right about the 308.

[@e-legalcanadian]

Ron, you are correct. I did some more research and it turns out that what I have is a .458 Win Mag, but the ammo I have is made from .375 H&H brass. Thanks for the clarification.

[@RonSpomerOutdoors]

Aha. You figured it out. Yes, making different cartridges from brass like that can make things confusing. 270 from 30-06, 260 Rem from 308, etc.

[@donaldmartin4980]

I have shot everything smaller than elk with my .243 , never had to chase anything … been using that caliber since 1975…farthest deer was 370 yards , farthest pig about 250 ..

[@jfess1911]

There is an article from the Aug 1999 Firearms Tactical Institute publication that discusses the effect attributed to the hydrostatic shock comment. It is entitled "Blunt Trauma Concussion of Spinal Cord as Mechanism of Instantaneous Collapse". Basically, the force of the tissue being moved aside from the temporary cavity "can cause the spinal bones to collide forcefully against the spinal cord, disrupting nerve transmissions and causing instantaneous flaccid paralysis". In other words the spine gets rattled and the animal is briefly paralyzed. If enough tissue is damaged, the animal will die before it regains mobility. Otherwise, the animal can recover enough to run. The exact location of the temporary cavity and its size is important. The whole thing is pretty complicated since it involves the speed, mass, and effective frontal area of the bullet and exactly what tissues it goes through. From what I have read, this "Dropped Right There" or "like struck by lightning" effect became much more common with the introduction of the 270 Winchester. 270 loads seemed to have the right combination of bullet diameter and velocity to routinely stun deer, something seldom seen older cartridges like the 30-30.

[@wcookiv]

This, thank you. It's not about turning the boiler room to jelly every time, it's about delivering that nerve shock, 'funny bone' hit to the entire motor system at once. That's why they sometimes come back after dropping dead limp for a second and a half.

[@SuperMarshall2009]

Lots of cool thoughts here - Love the discussion in the comments. Hydrostatic shock is a good model, but a model isn't always the reality for example where a body is made of various densities like bone that if struck early could disrupt hydrostatic shock. Velocity is great at imparting energy into an object, but mass and surface area helps carry and transfer energy - So many variables, so much empirical data that isn't super organized -in official capacities, but lots of good experiences to share - love the talk around the subject, Its where we learn from each other on this.

[@CB-68-westcreations]

For hydrostatic shock to actually be as effective as described, you would need the entire chest cavity filled with fluid. It is not filled with fluid for head shots, large muscle groups or direct muscle impact. It does make a difference. Not so much through voids, such as lungs and semi hollow chest cavities, there’s a lot of airspace in lungs. And there’s something to say about the pericardial sack as well.

[@hrdrockfarm8948]

Can air not be displaced now?

[@CB-68-westcreations]

@@hrdrockfarm8948 sure it can. But they haven’t done testing to see what that displacement is. Everything is based on fluid and gel. Which behaves entirely different.

[@danthemanboone1102]

Hi Ron. I watch your videos every now and then and caught this one today and watched because of the reference to Hydrostatic shock. I started hunting red deer in 1969 here in New Zealand mostly for sale to the wild venison market that was booming at the time. I continued to hunt through to 2010 when I hung up my guns due to old age and physical deterioration. During that time about the mid1980s I had a brief affair with a mod 700 Remington in 22.250. One of the things I noticed with this rifle was the propensity for bruising between the muscle tissues that could extend all the way through the spine to the back knee area on animals shot mostly in the neck or shudder/ rib area. Of around 50 animals shot in a six month period all were total collapse and instant Death. I moved on from the Rem 700 because of its length and weight which made carrying animals with that rifle difficult in steep thickly vegetated areas. I replaced it with a Ruger mini 14 ranch rifle which I used until I gave up hunting altogether. I sometimes saw the same bloodshot issue with the .223. but never to the same extent. Small high velocity expanding projectiles generally stay inside the animal and expend all their available energy inside the animal. I am totally convinced that small high velocity bullets can introduce a shock wave effect that does not replicate with larger heavier bullets that bore a hole and pass out the animal, carrying off incalculable excess energy with them.

[@chadillac95]

3:33 using a faster twist rate in the same caliber will also add slightly more pressure

[@carlwilliams6300]

Great video sir

[@sherab2078]

I just recently discovered your channel, Ron. I'm not a hunter, only a sport (target) shooter from Poland, but I really do appreciate your content due to your scientific, hard-data approach. Your videos became a very interesting source of information on the ballistics of many cartridges I wasn't even aware they existed. For my applications, I'll probably stick to .223 for a centre-fire rifle, 9x19 mm for a centre-fire pistol, and .22 LR, but whoah, your videos are so insightful on all those other cartridges out there. Thank you very much!

[@JohnSmith-f6o]

I agree with you completely Ron regarding hydrostatic shock and the role it plays with killing animals. Even wtih the fastest cartridges and best bullets, it sometimes seems to play a role in killing, then the very next animal you shoot with that combination runs 70 yards before dropping. You simply cannot say come up some combination of bullet and velocity that guarantees instant kills 100% of the time. Most hunters come to this conclusion eventually as they gain experience.

[@jfess1911]

ADI in Australia makes the "Extreme" powders including Varget, H4350, and H4895.

[@thomasstrout1738]

I think you are correct about tissue elasticity. The hydrostatic energy wave at the wound would dissipate in the surrounding blood vessels as they expand in diameter and stretch in length. I think it would vary a lot based on velocity at impact, bullet weight, diameter, etc. There would be a big difference between a .22 short and a .460 Weatherby mag. I think a skull shot would be different as mechanically the skull cavity would act more like a rigid pressure vessel to some extent.

[@Noah-vs7np]

Ron you remind me of my uncle you apporch questions and answers with superb ability and technque. He is gone my uncle passed awsy but i can still listen listen to you. Thank you for what you do, and how you do it.God bless you friend.

[@billkniseley4052]

On barrel length. Prior to telescopic sights for rifles, long barrel equals long sight radius. Better accuracy

[@scottzipperer6146]

Love 243 70 to 87 are my favorite but I took my new supergrade to the range yesterday and 95 gr superformance shot 7/16 in group at 100 yds .FANTASTIC that's my go to tell I load some ammo

[@RT-gv6us]

Another great video. With regard the age old 243 for deer question. People that have had the bullet hit the shoulder and not penetrate were very likely not using a projectile with adequate bullet construction. The 243 does GREAT for deer, but bullet construction is more critical than it is for larger calibers like the 270, 308. 30-06, etc... A couple examples of ones I would avoid: 85g Sierra Game King, Nosler Ballistic Tip 90g and 95g, and the Hornady 87g SST. These are GREAT projectiles that will work good MOST of the time, but there is a higher chance of a bullet failure. Projectiles I recommend for deer in the 243: Barnes 80g TTSX and 85g TSX, Nosler Partition 85g, 95g and 100g, and the 90g Nosler Accubond, the Speer 90g Hot Cor and Speer 100g Grand Slam. Any one of these projectiles are going to give deep penetration even through bone and will usually also have an exit wound. Use a bullet with the right construction type and shoot with confidence.

[@StevenStyczinski-sy8cj]

Love your Channel Ron. Hydrostatic shock sounds like a knockout punch, and then they come to after a minute.

[@ravissary79]

Sounds great if you also can bleed them while they're down... or if you can close the distance and follow up. Interestingly, I listened to a medical symposium once on handgun wounding trends and ER technology and trauma/surgery success results. A big part of the talk was how they transitioned away from whole blood for transfusions into using separated ingredients to reconstitute a needed blood type from stored ingredients... resulting in ready-to-order large volume transfusions... but there was also talk about how they've seen a huge increase in handgun survivability rates (up to 60% at the time of the talk, perhaps a 10-15 years ago in a major city), and one hypothesis was that the increased stopping rate from expanding bullets also inadvertently increased survivability for any cases where the paramedics had a chance once on scene....and apparently this is a benefit of the shock causing them to "pass out" (why they fell down when shot, many people don't, primarily when very high or determined), but it's theorized that unlike older bullets that icepick through, the newer ones cause a sudden rapid loss of blood pressure, but the body responds with a defensive shock response which consolidates blood in the core vitals meanwhile lowering BP in the head, leading to loss of consciousness. Even the core vitals lose pressure as well, and the vessels change from this defensive response to prevent rapid bleeding out due to heightened cardiovascular activity when frightened or angry. The shock shuts tgat down, and this seems to sometimes buy the victim time... not to do anything, but to simply not die yet. Obviously this is a problem if no one gets you help, but if they do, their chance of survival in a good ER goes up unless the shock is too deep and brain damage results. It kind of blew my mind because it revealed that a stop=/=a kill. In the 20s-50s some police departments actually called their 38s with lead round nosed bullets widowmakers, because it was all too often that while they were plenty deadly, the enemy didn't always stop fighting before bleeding out, and thus could shoot back resulting a kind of mutually assured homicide unless you have cover or overwhelming force (shotguns, surprise, etc). Hollow points reduced this trend until drugs seemed to somewhat reduce the effectiveness of almost any stop, at least some of the time. Obviously this mechanically relates to hunting as we all want an ethical kill, but that starts with a fast stop unless that stop comes at the cost of a recovery. But if you can get both, problem solved. Unfortunately, most hand held options can't just Avada Kadavra a tough animal. So it's hard to be as merciful as we might want to be.

[@sneakinguponit]

⁠@@ravissary79the shock response makes sense with the animals I’ve shot in the chest cavity (heart/lung only) that drop instantly. They’re dead before they recover from shock with destroyed lungs and grazed or exploded heart muscle. I would only expect instant death from a brain shot. With a spine shot anywhere in the neck/back I would expect paralysis and possibly, but less likely, hemorrhaging. Of course a spine shot in the front half of an animal will eventually cause vital organ shutdown which would be instant but not immediately noticeable.

[@sha6mm]

Great Show Ron and Yes I like the 6mm Rem and with a quality bullet I would hunt anything smaller than Elk for Me this is where it shines with low recoil. Barrel length in a rifle to Me in a bolt action 24 inch in standard weight barrel in non magnum calibers is perfect and Magnum cartridges 26 inch seems great. The weight of a couple inches more barrel is very little in a Sporter. 🎉If I can carry a Shotgun bird hunting with a 26-30 inch barrel in a pump or auto makes rifles seem short and no Big Game animal is as fast as a Quail in the thickets. But Rifles are tools and one will not due for every thing and thats where a 2 or 3 rifle battery makes sense. It also has merits when I was getting ready for a Montana Mule Deer hunt I had a scope fail a week before I was to leave. I went to the gun safe pulled out another rifle checked it’s zero and went hunting. If I would not of had another rifle I would have been scrambling to get another scope and mount it and get it zeroed in.

[@christopherandamandasmith6595]

80 grain TTSX or a 85 TSX in this fine caliber and it does real well! My .243 has taken a few moose, couple black bear, almost a dozen dall sheep, and dozens of caribou with those Barnes bullets up here in Alaska!

[@thedirtygot9570]

I wonder how long a barrel needs to be, to get to hornady box velocity😂?

[@jimmylowe1233]

14 feet

[@billhatcher2984]

Ray needs to think about the old muzzle loaders that took a 45 cal. Ball 44 inches of twist to stabilize it and a 32 cal. Round ball would stabilize with 1 in 32 rotation and the 56 cal was done in one in fifty six was supposed to be the best long. Rangerifle

[@pulldeauxduck2480]

Like Hicock45 a school teacher. It’s a gift !thanks Dad 🦆🦆

[@scottstruif3939]

Hydrostatic shock is simply disruption of CNS signals in a bundle of nerves. Ron’s example of shooting a deer in the chest, causing it to fall instantly is an example. If the bullet also succeeds in grenading in the chest, causing physical damage to the nerve ganglia, it will stay down. That’s why frangible bullets are better than those that “mushroom,” such as copper bullets.

[@LarsHaheim]

After close to 40 years of big game hunting with various calibers/bullets I fully agree with Ron Spomer regarding "hydrostatic shock".

[@tacticalmattfoley]

We can argue over the strangest things....sometimes it seems like we're trying to determine the smallest projectile necessary to down whitetail. Even though 22LR has and will take down a deer, we all know it's not the most ethical hunting decision AND might put us at odds with state regulations. Something in 30cal with a lot of a$$ behind it will ALWAYS take down a deer, mule deer and elk.

[@ravissary79]

Pure poetry 👏 👏

[@bryonslatten3147]

243/6mm cartridges are marketed for smaller shooters and those who are recoil-sensitive. Not everyone can shoot a 140+ grain hunting bullet accurately.

[@tacticalmattfoley]

@@bryonslatten3147 Not everyone needs to be hunting big game, either..

[@bryonslatten3147]

@@tacticalmattfoley whitetail isn’t big game.

[@tacticalmattfoley]

@@bryonslatten3147 then, 6.5 will be just fine for you and your delicate, effeminate frame....

[@RigiLiquid945]

After changing from moose hunting to deer hunting, I've harvested a couple of white tails with 150gr Federal Fusion 300 Win Mag. from a Tikka heavy barrel. Very effective, but more devastating that it destroys everything more than a 30-06, 308. or 30-30. I also tried hunting deer and black bear with a 454 Casull lever gun with Hornady XTP, and I have a .243 Ruger #1 and hunted with 100 gr once as well.

[@bobsbarnworkshop]

Well Ron, I will put in my two cents on the .243…. I have shot many whitetails big and small over the past years with Sierra 85 gr hp and Speer 100 gr spbt bullets (hand loads with H414) out of my Rem model Seven and never lost a deer! 90%+ drop in their tracks! With the 85 gr I shoot the base of the neck, 100 gr I aim high shoulder. This year I shot an 8 point brute standing broadside at 75 yds, so I decided on a heart shot with the 100 gr load. It penetrated the bone and ribs totally liquifying everything in his chest and the fragments broke some of the opposite side ribs too! He staggered maybe 30 yds. It works! And regarding hydrostatic shock… most deer I shoot with my .243 have mass destruction in the chest cavity, the bullet didn’t come in contact with all of it, the shockwave does the most damage! Watch any bullet hit ballistic gel in slow motion and see how a huge cavity is formed from the expanding bullet! Like a grenade going off inside! Thanks for the videos!

[@johnferguson185]

I harvested a deer the year before last went in behind the left shoulder and came out the right shoulder . Ruger American 243 , Winchester deer season XP 95gr

[@tazman8271]

With soldid copper or copper alloy, you can drop the suggested bullet weight as long as the bullets are designed for big game.

[@dennisvandee2720]

I have seen the hydrostatic shock work with my old Thompson Center Firehawk muzzleloader in 50 cal drop pretty much every deer I ever shot with the old normal lead bullets, but when shooting a sabot bullet with the same charge and moving faster the deer run off so many yards before falling down dead

[@Noah-vs7np]

I have taken several whitetails with a 243 with 100 and 90 grain bullets many droping in there tracks. What a great caliber wonderful beginer rifle and great caliber for most witetail hunting

[@ejsocci2630]

Another great video Ron, and we need to realize first and foremost to remember about shot placement first, keep doing your research for us and as older guys that have harvested more deer know a tad more after tracking and gutting deer and actually seeing what really happened after the shot,thanks Ron,

[@stonebay2111]

I love my 243 it fed my family during some tough times. Got out of the military and moved to Montana had a crap job 2 kids a wife needing a better vehicle and some medical bills. Saw a left handed 243 in a pawn shop for $175. Budget was tight enough i couldn't swing it till the next month...snow tires... so 2 months later I went to buy it and it was gone..I was upset because you don't come across lefties often. Told my wife it was gone and she handed it to me. She bought it that morning. Got it sighted in a it was 3/4in groups with 95grain hornady superformance and an inch with 100gr federal blue box. Filled my freezer. Have taken antelope, whitetail muleys and even elk with it. Elk were inside 250yards a couple hunting buddies have taken deer with it as well as my mother and daughter....and my wife talked them down and got it for 150. Savage model 11 with a synthetic stock. Not an inch of finish on it. It had been painted and paint removed with a wire wheel. Ugly but fantastic shooter. Doing much better financially, kids are grown and I have nicer rifles now but I plan on taking my deer this year with it. Gave it a significant stock and scope upgrade for this season

[@johnschneider6183]

Hydrostatic Shock. After hunting and killing animals for 60+ years (took my first deer @6yo) hydrostatic shock is a myth. It works on jugs filled with h20 but not on animals. Animals are not filled with water. They do have some but more air in their lungs than blood. Muscle and bone are not h20. Hydrostatic Shock is also known as h20 hammer. If you have ever witnessed that then you know exactly what I am talking about. Loss of blood in the pipes and vessels is the most common cause of death when shot unless the central nervous system is compromised. DRT is nice but doesn't always happen. I have seen too heavy of a bullet that's too heavily constructed cause the loss of more game than to light of a bullet. In a 243 or 6mm I like 70-85 grain bullets. I also like Barnes, Hornaday, and Hammer Bullets. If you think it takes a 100-grain bullet to kill a White-tail then how does a 22LR kill them. Why is there so much success with a 22-250. I routinely take wild hogs and axis deer from my front porch with a CZ 22 Hornet at ranges up to 100 yards with a 45-grain varmint bullet! It's like Ron ALWAYS says, It's putting the right bullet in the RIGHT place that counts.

[@theunofficialresults231]

It may not be called "hydrostatic shock" , but testing by the FBI has proven that when the velocity of a projectile is above 2100 fps when it contacts the body, the organs are stretched past the point of recovery. That shock is what causes death.

[@theunofficialresults231]

"hydrostatic shock", testing by the FBI concluded that when projectiles hit a body at speeds above 2200 fps stretch the organs past their point of elasticity which is what causes almost immediate death. kzbin.info/www/bejne/imfOhqmfbJemZrssi=jZ9eNKxBJnAj_xdC

[@FISHUNTREECOUNTRY]

If the valves in the heart are open upon this impact, then the blood vessels on the brain have a chance of rupturing, but much less likely if the valves are closed.

[@andyc.947]

This is incorrect. Have you ever shot a deers in the lungs with a rifle? The lungs are basically turning to jell. They dont just have a 30 caliber hole in them or even the diameter of a bullet that has opened up. It's not a myth, just depends on what you are shooting on how effective the hydrostatic shock is.

[@talisikid1618]

Depends. It also works on animals. But there many variables. Bullet design being a big one. Velocity is another. I haven’t hunting that much, but I have taken a few whitetails with jellied heart/lungs. They usually drop straight down. But I’ve seen other people just have a wound channel and a tracking job. And the calibers varied.

[@GregoryMcBride-qf7hx]

If you look at the gel of an 8.6 expanding bullet you can see it make a single turn in the gel every 3in . The extra spin of the 8.6 blackout really enhances penetration aswell

[@mattsharpe3989]

Another thing to remember about long barrels is if you’re shooting iron sights a longer sighting plane is always better

[@davidpruyne7340]

Luv it ,,,,, we all get to chose our choices ,,,, weather we endure them or enjoy them ,,,,, carry on Ron

[@thehoneybadger8089]

A basic understanding of the old Greenhill Formula which combines bullet diameter with length to calculate the needed rifling twist rate, along with the muzzle velocity is needed to establish the needed RPM to stabilize the bullet in flight.

[@kraftzion]

Garand thumb tested.the 8.6 on gel. The 1n3 had extremely impressive terminal performance. Expecially for a subsonic projectile. I of the comments though was that long range performance suffers cause the bullet doesn't want to nose over due to the high spin rate.

[@paulholznagel6101]

Hi Ron. My mate and I used to use a 303/25 as teenagers hunting Roos and feral animals. Was an awesome gun.

[@paulholznagel6101]

Love your videos by the way

[@RonSpomerOutdoors]

I'll bet it was. Were you pushing 85-grain bullets about 3,300 fps?

[@crawlinwithkeagan5678]

I shot 243 when I was younger and had a 90 grain lead core bullet go through and break both front legs and put almost a fist size hole through the chest cavity on a decent size doe in sc

[@crawlinwithkeagan5678]

Wont let me post the photo

[@crawlinwithkeagan5678]

If anyone’s wanting the photo lmk I can’t send

[@Robert-n4p1g]

This a nice day ever wear I look on KZbin there is 243 I love my 243 it's a killer love live the 243

[@richardfrieman]

Also: the lever action being referred to by Blair is probably not chambered in 35 Remington, but the 357 Magnum. Those pistol caliber lever actions (like the 1894) are much more common than a 35 Remington.

[@RonSpomerOutdoors]

Good point!

[@JamesKing-jw6hs]

That's funny, I'm using Dad's s&w .243 , harvested a cull buck last Saturday @ 150yds.. hammered the biracial, slightly low , with a Nosler 90 grain. I thought I missed, ran 30 feet. No heart, half a liver, half a lung gone

[@wadesworldoffishing7184]

Legal Canadian probably got the 375's mixed up. He probably has a 375 winchester, this cartridge looks like a 22 magnum but of course much bigger. The 375 h&h has always had a shoulder. I could be wrong but I'm willing to bet the Canadian has a 375 Winchester.

[@chriscurtis7723]

Hi Ron, Chris here. The only time I have seen hydrostatic shock was a beaver I shot at about 75 yards. I was shooting my 22-250 with a 55gr. spire point. The target was a pest beaver on private land. The shot was placed between the eyes and exited out the rear. The scull was gone and was everything else inside with a giant 6inch exit hole.

[@RonSpomerOutdoors-Podcast]

Yeah, no doubt, but I think we're safe in assuming that the complete and thorough stirring of the brain matter was the proximate cause of demise. More heavily metal shock than hydro!

[@tylerlower5140]

The rifle i picked to inherit from my grandfather was a 243. Perfectly good little round

[@johnnorman7708]

Hydrostatic shock can in theory happen with high velocity and rapid bullet expansion. You cannot predict it, measure it, or even photograph it inside a game animal. It is an elusive thing.

[@chuckcompton9349]

Lewis and Clark expedition requested larger 45 caliber, shorter barrel rifles because of the large animals they had heard they were going to be encountering on their expedition. The only other rifle I have read about being used other than their requested rifles was their air rifle that they tried.

[@JPtogether-fg5nm]

from cartridge to cartridge the velocity will vary with the same powder charge as much as 150fps.

[@RegularGunGuy]

Dropped many Monster Mule Deer with 243win 95 grain sst in Idaho all dropped dead in tracks.

[@grahambamford9073]

Interesting point on the long barrels, think of the British Lee Enfield, the SMLE stands for "short", magazine,lee Enfield. As a kid I always assumed it was the magazine that was short, but they ment the rifle. The .303 cartridge was a black powder round when it was adopted by the British but then went to smokeless shortly afterwards hence the new rifles being shorter.

[@vb4567]

I worked on feral goats shot in the rear upper leg with the military 5.56 mm. I observed a wide area of muscle tissue and blood vessel destruction, almost the entire upper leg muscle, not a small hole, and I think that hydrostatic shock is what the high speed low weight bullets were designed to create, to cause injury that would immobilize an enemy soldier no matter where they were hit. Of course, these bullets also tumbled sideways upon entry into the muscle tissue which contributed to the injury and shock.

[@SamuraiAkechi]

13:38 Not to forget that many miliaty theoreticicans have been considering Napolleonic era tactics (such as volley fire, moving in formations, bayonet charges and cavalry raids) viable up to 1915. Not many world powers have been studying the lessons and novelties of US Civil War, nor that of the Second Boer War. Or, rather, they have studied them selectively. 14:23 I think, civilian flintlock and percussion cap muzzleloaders always had smaller bore size compared to the guns made for the army.

[@OzarkBud]

Every gun has a preference. For some reason most of my rifles prefer lighter, flatter shooting ammo. My all weather Ruger Mini 14 loves 50gr Remington UMC hp. Unbelievable groups with 1 in 9" twist and more than capable of taking a whitetail. My Ruger AR 15s with the 1 in 8" twist prefer the same round. Heavier the bullet, the groups get less desirable. I shot these 223s due to a shoulder injury and having to leave the Browning Bar 300 Win Mag in the safe, by the way, best groups were with 150gr Remington Core Lock or the Winchester Power Point. I decided to try a 243, at the time during the lockdown, Browning Bars were impossible to find,so, I bought the Savage Axis package. I tried many rounds and the Winchester BST averaged around 1/2" groups at 100 yds. Devastating round on deer for sure. Feed your gun what it prefers and proper shot placement will put them on the ground. Keep up the good work Ron!

[@MichaelRandall-f1o]

On this subject of twist rate. It depends on many factors. Hunting or target shooting and the distance you're doing this at. Here is two extremes. Bench rest could go out to 300 yards, mostly 100- 200 yards and they don't need boat tail bullets. On the other hand 1 mile and two mile shooter do. And need heavier long bullets. Higher BC's for this discipline. 300 Yards is the line of demarcation for flat base vs boat tall in some shooting circles. 6mmPPC, VS 50BMG😅😊 Just keep them all in the ten ring...hope this point hits home.

[@scottzipperer6146]

Love both 243 and 35 I have 2 of each

[@dpbierman2586]

Thank you Ron Great channel you have! You have heard and seen it all over the years but you won't keep everybody happy.. people will disagree for the sake of disagreeing and they will argue out of their corner of inexperience. The bottom line for me is that many hunters do not know the anatomy (bone structure, placement of vital organs)of the animals they hunt well enough, therefore fail to put the bullet in the right place (at different angles sometimes) and then blame bullets/weights/calibers ect for their failures... and many hunters can improve in driving their rifles as well. That counts for all of us.

[@allenrosesr.8480]

My 243 ruger md 77 as a bull barrel shoots lights out

[@daye8132]

15:40, legal canadian,..Canadian,... 375 tapered/rimmed. It was designed for a double rifle. The 375 belted, was designed for a bolt rifle.

[@carlwilliams6300]

Speed kills 👍

[@allthingsconsidered3211]

In terms of energy the 1-3t doesnt add anything significant, but it does increase the cutting surface area.

[@AbesNbacon]

Dr. Kevin Robertson, author of “The Perfect Shot”. Claims that round and flat nose bullets deliver more hydrostatic shock, than spire point bullets. Just a thought to add to this great discussion.

[@RonSpomerOutdoors]

Certainly worth considering. He's a veterinarian as well as PH, so has been around the block. But I'd sure like to see some evidence/proof. The difference in diameter between a spire point and flat nose is so tiny and they get so expanded/mangled so quickly...

[@AbesNbacon]

@@RonSpomerOutdoors The podcast was on the Big Game Hunting Blog, from about 6 months ago. I’m not promoting it, I’m just passing along his information. My experiences with PH’s is they don’t care much about technical details as much as results. It’s worth listening to. Thank you for all the Great Videos. Stay Safe and Well.

[@genebishop1405]

Just a quick interjection to your explanation of the bullets balancing (it is not being balanced) going down the barrel with the 5R rifling or any other rifling as far as that matter goes. When a bullet is traveling down the barrel it is rotating on the center of the barrels bore, however the instant the bullet leaves the barrel it now rotates on the axis of the bullet itself. Problems from a so called (wobbling) bullet will more likely be caused by an imperfect bullet or more likely by a damaged crown. I highly doubt that the number of lands and groves has anything at all to do with "squishing" or balancing of the bullet.

[@jasonstephenson793]

You've seen Hydrostatic shock at work. examples: when a bottle of water explodes when shot, when a watermelon is shot & explodes, when you shoot ballistics jell & not only does the wound cavity expand 3-10x the size of the bullet, but you also see the ballistic jell block wiggle , that wiggle is the hydrostatic shock wave moving through the ballistic gelatin. While this shock wave may or may not interfere with the nervus system, it can & usually does stop things like breathing & heart beat, causing the animal to drop in it's tracks, it's also the reason you seen animals that appear dead, jump up & start running off

[@jaydunbar7538]

Velocity based, impact velocity’s needs to be 1800+ fps or higher to have the shockwaves surpass the elasticity of flesh and cause permanent damage to the surrounding tissue.

[@jasonstephenson793]

​@@jaydunbar7538 that is not true, a shock wave is the transfer of energy. Example when you throw a rock in to a pond & it creates ripples, those ripples is a shock wave, created by the transfer of energy from the rock to the water. Yet, the velocity of the rock was way, way, way under 1800 Fps. Some ones heart can be stopped by hitting them in the chest, with lets say a base ball bat. The transfer of KE to the chest, creates a shock wave that stops the heart, yet again, the base ball bat wasn't even close to 1800 Fps Your forgetting Newtons basic laws. E=MC squared, his 1st law of motion & his 2nd law of motion.

[@RonSpomerOutdoors]

@@jaydunbar7538 I'm not sure the 1,800 fps is required for shock, but is often the minimum velocity for effective expansion of many bullets.

[@marktemplin1159]

I use a 100 grain , Hornady btsp, they drop deer where they stand,,,, 34.5 grains ,of 4320

[@CARLPHILLY]

I have dropped a lot of Whitetail in their tracks with my 270 Winchester with 130 grain bullets. Hydrostatic shock does work. Or as Mr. Weatherby says speed kills.

[@jk-kr8jt]

Hi Ron, watching this video a bit late. In regards to "LegalCanada"'s question regarding his 375. When he stated his 375 H&H is a straight wall like an over grown 22 Mag, I immediately thought that he was conflating the 375 "H&H" with the 375 "Winchester ". As I'm sure you know the failed 375 Win was/is a straight walled, slightly tapered cartridge. Possibly he had a typo. I think it would be difficult to not notice the belt or shoulder on the 375 H&H. To my knowledge the 375 Win was only factory available in the Winchester "Big Bore" and a few Thompson Center Contender barrels. Neither of those will accept a 375 H&H cartridge without the help of a heavy hammer. If that's the case we don't have to worry about "LegalCanada" inadvertently loading the wrong cartridge in his rifle. Just a thought. Keep up the good work. Cheers, Jeff

[@joracer1]

While talking about long barrels on rifles, you missed the opportunity to talk about the slight advantages of a longer sight radius for rifles with open sights. You're right about the 25-06 but i go for the neck though. But i guess ive been lucky...

[@johnscheffler1514]

Hi Ron, i thought that was the key to the 220 swift hydrostatic shock. Old timers shooting deer in the neck. Or am i wrong?

[@bentwheeldryerrepair]

35 grains of 3031 behind a 100 grain flat base spitzer in my .243 is a devastating tack driver.

[@geezerdude4873]

Back in the day I was into accurate shooting in a big way. Don't remember the naame right now, but a guy inherited a bunch of money and went to shooting back around 1890 to WWI era. By placing a bunch of targets and tracking bullet flight accurately, he found out that bullets travel in a spiral through the air. I remember back in the day when the Remington 7mm came out, people noted 3 inch accuracy at 100 yards, and 3 inch accuracy at 300 yards. The air spiral condenses over flight time, so that you get greater accuracy relatively speaking over time. Bullets are much better built today, and there has been a lot of effort put into accuracy, performance on game or target, etc.

[@thehoneybadger8089]

Longer barrels with iron sights gave a longer sight radius which increases the accuracy potential.

[@OnPoints-p3m]

243 works on everything from prairie dogs to whitetail not a problem and I don't care if you hit it in the shoulder. I think old boys just missing. LoL great video Ron

[@drichi07]

Haven't heard the ancient hydrostatic shock theory since the late 70s. Nice to see it back. Hope to see in more in reality with actual research showing significantly superior results. I recall the old theory held that a velocity of more than 3000 fps was the lower limit. I had always wondered if your velocity drops below that to about 2900 fps at some distance if the hydrostatic shock disappeared.

[@johnwilburn8319]

No,it starts right around 2700 FPS?

[@pierregauthier3077]

Would increasing twist rate cause higher chamber pressure? The bullet is spinning at the same rotation as the barrel twist. When passing through the target. I would think twist rate would follow through.

[@portersorensen8814]

In the same way as velocity impacts, yes but not a crazy amount