RPG Retro Review: The Duchy of Ten

A retrospective final look at Dave Arneson's stint at TSR, inc with DA4 the Duchy of Ten. Gary Gygax is ousted from the company he created, and the DA series final module is published. What happened?
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[@knicknac95]

19:20 - the bitter irony is that Gary Could have kept control - if only his then partner and co founder of TSR Don Kaye had had the foresight to make a provision in a will ensuring his shares in the company went to Gary in the event of his death.

[@djay6651]

I truly miss the 80's era of TSR/D&D. As much as I liked 3.0/3.5, the 80's were the true Golden Era of PnP role playing.

[@pentegarn1]

If I had a time machine I'd go back and do it all over again. Even if I had to suffer through the FBI investigation all over again.

[@Wolfogre]

All in all I get the feeling that the Blackmoor modules were a collection of vast, utapped potential and missed opportunities.

[@HavardBlackmoor]

Oh, you have no idea :)

[@captcorajus]

Yes!!!

[@captcorajus]

Hey hey! Nice to see you here!

[@djay6651]

I have some of the Blackmoor stuff hidden somewhere. I think the UK series also had some untapped potential.

[@agemmemnon100]

Sigh. When I see the prices of modules on ebay that used to own in my collection, the collector in me groans in agony.

[@craigtucker1290]

Tell me about, I have been buying those overpriced modules. It is what has caused me to slow down on completing my collection.

[@richmcgee434]

I regret selling all this stuff in the 90s - while I got decent money then and desperately needed to lighten my load since I was moving every couple of years for work and school, if I'd held on to everything my retirement would have been funded comfortably. Ah well, seller's regret.

[@captcorajus]

Lol.. you too?

[@dallassukerkin6878]

:chuckles: A few years ago I passed onto my godson nearly all of my 'legacy' D&D and RPG material ... I wonder if he knows that just some of the Gazeteer material is worth about a grand? :sigh:

[@pjm3005]

@@richmcgee434 nah; if you would have held on to your stuff, so would everyone else and no one would want it and it wouldn't be worth anything. also, before you beat yourself up, try looking at prices for stuff that actually sold as opposed to what people are listing stuff for; i bet you'll find that there's a huge difference.

[@raymondlugo9960]

It seems to me TSR missed an opportunity to make each of the DA modules a different level product where DA1=Basic, DA2=Expert, DA3=Companion, DA4=Master, and DA=Immortal.

[@captcorajus]

I'm not a real fan of module above much of the Companion level myself, but each to their own. I would have liked it if there were some lower level modules though. :)

[@richmcgee434]

@@captcorajus Always seemed to me that the vast majority of modules/adventures for any game should be for the lower levels (in D&D, 1-6 maybe), with a smaller number for mid-tier (7-12 or so), and very few for higher levels. Most campaigns never get to the really high tiers, and the ones that do generally have GMs that don't need or want someone else's adventure ideas. The modern trend toward "adventure paths" that run from start to finish level-wise leave me kind of baffled and wondering how much epic-level stuff actually sells. Do campaigns really run that long, or do people keep buying out of sheer inertia and a desire to see how the story goes? Although I suppose there is an argument to be made that high-level adventures (and particularly combat encounters) require more work from the GM, so a module that saves you some of that work is more helpful than it would be for lower-level games.

[@sirkharuse1153]

I believe that Drawing of the Blossom crashing on the rocks is by Jeff Easley. It looks like his pencil style of drawing.

[@darcyw156]

The more I listen to your videos the more I need to convert and run them for my group. Thanks so much for all your work!

[@Aaron-mj9ie]

Convert them? WHY?!

[@darcyw156]

@@Aaron-mj9ie so I don't have to re-learn BX DND. I am happy with 5e.

[@richmcgee434]

@@darcyw156 Fair enough. At least the conversion work's not too much of a hassle from BX to 5th. I remember the dubious joys of doing BX to 4e conversions - that was some serious work, might as well write the whole thing from the ground up.

[@ronald5439]

I will always have a special place in my heart for this time because I started playing D&D in the early 80s while in college.😊 Thanks for all you do reviewing old 70s and 80s classics

[@SupremeCleave]

This module actually tries to link everything together that was, uh, less than perfectly presented in previous modules. Very cool review!

[@jasonkrynicky3170]

I would love to see your retrospective of the Living Blackmoor campaign. I got to meet Dave at one of the events and get him to sign my copy of the og Blackmoor pamphlet. good times.

[@menion2599]

The pic of the ship is almost definitely an Easley piece, I reckon.

[@cosmiccowboy9358]

I wish my group would play some older editions it all looks like so much fun

[@PHLsbg]

Pretty sure it's easy to convert it to 5e or other rule sets

[@murkyhydra6351]

Ooh! Ove been waiting for this review!

[@TonyPuleo1]

I remember this one back in the day...Great module...

[@JBGarrison72]

I've always been a Greyhawk fan... 83 WoG boxed set started it all for me. So, I never understood Arneson's work... and I definitely don't understand anything except the Darlene Greyhawk map version of Blackmoor. All of this Mystara setting stuff being mixed in with Arneson's Blackmoor utterly confuses me. So, which Blackmoor is better? Maybe we need to put a rain of colorless fire on Darlene map Blackmoor so I don't have to deal with these damn canon descrepancies? Lol!

[@Rajaat99]

Great review. I love these videos.

[@HowtoRPG]

I agree with your assessment of the adventure hook. Great review.

[@JackSohma]

Really liked the the retrospective as a series, helps to tie elements from each that might not be visible when taken individually. Can't wait to mine these for my OSE games. Would love to see the treatment on the Grand Conjunction modules from Ravenloft, especially considering the Van Richten's Guide To Ravenloft release.

[@captcorajus]

Hmmm, I might have to do some Ravenloft retrospectives to be sure. I'm REALLY looking forward to the new release myself.

[@richmcgee434]

@@captcorajus I'm kind of dreading it myself for fear of what 5e could do wrong with it - but I suppose a sense of dread is appropriate for Ravenloft, right? :) Hopefully they don't lose the "Gothic horror" feel in the process of updating to 5e, and maybe we'll get some mechanics that encourage playing rough with the players. So very, very tired of listening to people prattle on about how the edition coddles the PCs when that's all up to the GM.

[@captcorajus]

@@richmcgee434 given how straight out amazing curse of Strahd was I see no reason to worry. :)

[@cthulhupthagn5771]

I'm going to be honest here. And I'm sure this might sound like heresy to other Old-Timers. These modules kind of stunk. I can't help but feel at the intent of these modules what's the shoe horn a campaign setting into Dungeons & Dragons. And I find every reason to believe that it was done as a way of stealthily doing it because approval was not met. The modules themselves may have interesting information but our overall poorly put together. There's a lot of conveniences and coincidences to get the players where they need to be. The entire time travel aspect if I were to use your ratings, would automatically knock Five Points off of most of the categories. I could be wrong in my timing but I believe around this time Grayhawk was still the official setting and Forgotten Realms was growing in prominence. I suspect that arneson grew frustrated because he wanted black more to be a component and quite frankly I could see why gygax would have disagreed. The modules were highly unoriginal. Most of them drawing heavily from recent and popular television shows. The adventures required a good amount of railroading, and much of what went into the design had nothing to do with the plot. Compared to other modules of the time they seem to meander and go all over the place I respect everyone involved in this but this stuff was a failure for me

[@pjm3005]

oh, you're right - these modules were terrible. there's ENTIRE PAGES of text that the DM is supposed to read aloud to the players and the text is baaaaaddd. seriously, cringingly bad. makes you embarrassed to have to read it bad. none of the first three modules deserved a rating over 5. the one that arneson didn't even get a writing credit for was by far the "best" of a bad, bad lot. hell, DA2 was a reprint that they had like 10 years to clean up and make playable and they still couldn't get it right.

[@trevormcwilliams7578]

As an old timer, I am not offended. Many of the modules were indeed terrible. Many were thought of as cool at the time as they provided cool shows (Star Trek) in a DnD setting. I enjoy reading the old modules simply for nostalgic reasons.

[@Johnny_Nitro]

Great review Cap! I have been perusing the comment section and it gets quite salty in places. As to the time travel gimmick, recently I watched a video about the continuity problems in the Star Trek franchise how information from TOS gets messed up by events in Enterprise or how Voyager messes up stuff from TNG. Trekkies often complain about how show writers don't respect cannon which introduces contradictions. I also held that view until recently when an interesting thought caused me to truly enjoy the contradictions. The idea was that all the time travelling WAS changing things, but only we as the outside observers are aware of those changes. The in-universe characters would never be aware of timeline changes. So here is an example and possible idea. The new JJ films retell the Kirk era Trek, with the caveat that they occur in the Kelvin timeline and not the prime timeline, but why? For the sake of argument the time travel event does essentially forever overwrite the events of TOS, in essence the Shatner incarnation of Kirk is replaced by Chris Pine. Only us, the audience and possibly beings like the Q would remember events before the temporal change. To me it is a fascinating way to track temporal changes without the creation of a tangential additional timeline or alternate universe. So, time travel in dnd. I think it should be allowed to change things, even if certain events must persist. Take the grandfather paradox you go back in time and kill your grandfather thus ensuring that you are never born. But you are born because you went back in time, thus I propose that when you return to any point after you left only then do the changes manifest in your mind. So you return to your time only now you have completely different parents and experiences which are added to you current memories. Essentially you remember 2 seperate childhoods and lives up to the point that you went back in time. Your thoughts Cap?

[@sunsin1592]

This was a fun adventure, especially the final scene at the volcano/well place.

[@michaelhill6453]

Great examination of the module.

[@jayp8786]

Been looking forward to this for a while and looks like storywise its the best one!

[@DStrormer]

Can you talk about the differences between these and the later produced 3.5 books (under the name Dave Arneson's Blackmoor) a bit? I'm curious if there's a good way to bring this wonderful setting to my mostly 5e-playing friends.

[@professor4202]

gee, unearthed arcana had "minimal playtesting"? LOL, that's the understatement of 1985 through 2020 right there! i'm not surprised that the best module of this series is the one dave arneson had nothing/very little to do with...

[@captcorajus]

LOL. UA was a mess of a thing. :) Dave Arneson created the lore for the module, so saying he had 'nothing' to do with it is a bit of an overstatement I would think. :)

[@craigtucker1290]

But you know what UA did that the community wanted, official game options. 1st edition was stagnating from a lack of innovation in official options and the only other source was Dragon Magazine, but most of that material was unofficial and some of the material presented was so unbalanced/broken that it made UA look good. Another thing I can remember from back in those days is what we all looked forward when a new sourcebook came out, magical items, spells, and character options.

[@richmcgee434]

@@craigtucker1290 Very true. Although it's worth pointing out that other game mags ran plenty of very unoffical D&D material, and companies like Judges' Guild were also pumping out stuff at a rate TSR found positively alarming. Not everyone cared about "TSR official" even back then, in part because the modern "organized play" programs weren't really around before the RPGA, and arguably had less influence even once it got up and running than WotC's programs do.

[@professor4202]

@@craigtucker1290 reading that, all i could think of was the thief-acrobat, a cavalier with 18/35 Dex, and an 18 Str fighter double specialized in darts - or bastard sword. how did he get 18/whatever Str? why, i rolled 9 dice for it (and 8 dice for con!!!), just like in ability score determination method V. oh, how awesome was it that barbarians got XP for destroying magic items!

[@craigtucker1290]

@@professor4202 Most of what was in UA would be adopted in 2nd edition, but with better balance and limitations. There were also more mechanics for character creation, including preset tables to even Dark Sun using 5d4 to generate ability scores. The idea was to give players options. I do get what you are saying and in 1st edition, this was a problem since everyone else not built using UA seemed underpowered, even so with. This wasn't really the case in 2nd edition and I have yet to see the game get out balance, though exceptional strength does get close sometimes. I also do not care how a player generates their character's ability scores because I realize that I cannot force a player to play a character with bad stats if they don't want to and most attributes don't really matter all that much. I only have them roll exceptional strength in front of everyone before they begin play.

[@andsmith3780]

As much as I like the known world setting, I don't think I'd ever run the DA series. This sounds like the best one though.

[@darthjoel6357]

Great video young man! Finally got my 1st order from Drive Thru RPG. The cyclopedia, b1-9 in search of adventure, and creature catalog. All are great quality! Ty for recommending them. 😊

[@captcorajus]

Awesome! Yeah, I ordered that myself and am going to be doing a review of it very soon!

[@pjm3005]

@@captcorajus i'm interested in seeing how you manage to justify giving "the clearing of castle caldwell" / "dungeon of terror" a score above 0!

[@captcorajus]

@@pjm3005 I'm sorry.. what?

[@pjm3005]

@@captcorajus above you said that you acquired a copy of b1-9, In Search of Adventure, and were going to do a review of it. b9 is the "clearing of castle caldwell" and its 'sequel', "dungeon of terror". in my opinion, you wildly overrate products because of nostalgia, so i am interested in seeing how you review b9 and justify your no-doubt-glowing review of it, considering that it is absolute dreck that insults the intelligence of your average 9 year old; although you may just do a review of the product overall as opposed to each individual section of it. regardless, i am very much looking forward to listening to your comments about b9.

[@captcorajus]

@@pjm3005 Ahhh.. I see. Well, lets just say I don't think my actual assessment of it will match your anticipated assessment of my assessment. ;)

[@Darkwintre]

So despite their mismanagement of TSR they backstabbed Gary by selling to Lorraine knowing she'd kick out Gary?

[@captcorajus]

Essentially. She made it clear that Gary wouldn't have an active role in the company going forward, so he left.

[@Darkwintre]

@@captcorajus Its amazing how many of these scenarios they produced have become invaluable for running in 5e!

[@jcmartin1978]

Been waiting for this one

[@daviddobarganes9115]

"I doubt it's from Dave Gorman" SHOTS FIRED

[@FASAfan]

Blackmoor’s Duchy of Ten vs Greyhawk’s Duchy of Tenh. Did Gygax put that Easter egg in o. Purpose, I assume?

[@ImaginerImagines]

What a good series, thank you.

[@RobbieJennings-cd6cp]

I've gone back and watched this series of modules twice now and it's great! In fact I plan on incorporating a lot of this world building material into the Blackmoor of the Greyhawk setting. Gygax and Arneson's work together, as it should be. Although I will say i'm going to get rid of the back in time thing for the come back inn. Maybe it can serve as a teleporter to a alternate or more "official" version of Blackmoor? Or maybe I can have it be a transporter to the forgotten realms and have it be part of a dimension hopping campaign? Either way, the out of time thing has to go. And also whatever the F*** the beginning of the temple the frog was. Seriously, WTH was with that? It looks like Temple of the frog was the second best module, but that beginning. Yeesh, I'm a complete amateur and I think even I could have come up with something better. Anyway, hope you're having a wonderful day. And I look forward to more of your content soon 👍

[@muskyelondragon]

Ahh, what if indeed? I wish we knew!

[@adamsturge4622]

what is the name of the background music in this video? It's so chill

[@Bluecho4]

The time travel conceit might still have merit, but it would need to be handled in a better manner. I think the twist that the prophecy requires "those not yet born" is an interesting one, and could have made for a better backstory detail. Here's my suggestion: a young wizard learns of this prophecy many years before the events of the adventure, and spends decades learning and perfecting Chronomancy in an attempt to engineer their own solution. Going into the future, they seek out heroes worthy enough to be trusted with destroying the Well of Souls in the past. It may even be revealed to the PCs that many of the dungeons or ancient threats they faced in their own time were "seeded" by the chronomancer centuries earlier, to test potential recruits for this task.

[@captcorajus]

That's a pretty cool backstory. I like it. :)

[@fredmonroe6042]

So your saying this was the fist version of a kathleen 🤯🔥🔥

[@danacoleman4007]

huh?

[@edilrosas]

The shipwreck art piece looks Jeff Ealey, unless I am mistaken.

[@KevinSigman]

What are the two pieces of music used in the intro of your videos? I like them. :)

[@captcorajus]

The first is a cut of another track that I blended together, and the second is called Blue Break from the youtube creator library. :)

[@KevinSigman]

@@captcorajus Thank you, sir! Much appreciated and keep up the good work. I really enjoy watching your videos and learning about D&D of previous eras.

[@alanrickett2537]

Any chance you can review the maximum mayhem new OSR modules there are 8 at present and their is a reprint kickstarter

[@captcorajus]

Funny you should mention those. Mark Taormino from Dark Wizard Games contacted me a few weeks ago about reviewing his modules. He sent me everything, including the boxed set of modules. So yes, I'll be reviewing them.

[@alanrickett2537]

@@captcorajus just joined the first edition FB page and as soon as I saw these I thought of you

[@JonsDDVlog]

Captain? Do you personally have a lot of enthusiasm about running these modules? Do you think you ever will?

[@JJSeattle]

The Dungeons and Dragons series was cancelled due to declining ratings. Only lasted 3 seasons in the heyday of Saturday Morning Cartoons - that can't be good.

[@captcorajus]

The D&D series ran for three seasons, which in the Saturday morning cartoon industry is quite an accomplishment. :)

[@JJSeattle]

@@captcorajus LOL Kid 'n' Play (rapper) and Bettlejuice got 2 seasons each, so it's on par with them....versus Fat Albert, The Smurfs, and Road Runner Show that got 8+ seasons each. Ahahahah so, yeah, I'm sticking to my statement.

[@captcorajus]

@@JJSeattle Okay brother. This isn't even a debate. Multi seasons of 2 or more is a good run in the animation industry of the time. That's just a fact. Not disputing the REASON for the cancellation. I'm just saying it was a success, and its time was done. That's all.

[@JJSeattle]

@@captcorajus What I'm actually surprised = D&D cartoon is FREE to watch on KZbin :)

[@captcorajus]

@@JJSeattle What's really cool is someone animated the unmade final episode. :)

[@BTsMusicChannel]

Instead of all the Players options (which add little to the game), I wish WoTC would give us DM tools like the city flow chart and the plot twists and things like that. Then you'd actually have better games because the DM could design better games!!! They get it backwards with all the player-centric supplements. :/

[@captcorajus]

I like 5E a lot, but I also see the faults. You're not wrong. However, I see it as a business decision of sorts. There are more players than there are DMs. lol

[@BTsMusicChannel]

@@captcorajus But no DM = no players. There are so many good game mechanics and tables they could mine from various old material. Last group I had loved it when I made up a "game within a game" for them -- even a simple hex crawl. Mechanics offer variety.

[@captcorajus]

@@BTsMusicChannel The BIGGEST complaint I hear about D&D is that "We can't find a DM". I AGREE 100% WOTC needs to make more DM oriented material.

[@BTsMusicChannel]

@@captcorajus Honestly, I think WoTC are somewhat incompetent D&Ders. I do think that some of the 5e rules are awesome -- advantage/disadvantage, for example. And certainly, I am never going back to the old school combat mechanics. But I see a lot of it as just normal evolution and streamlining -- even in high school back in 1985-86 we streamlined our combat, simplifying it even more than WoTC did (but perhaps too simplified). Then again, combat was not a huge part of our game back then -- we'd have about 3 fights per 2 sessions, but they wouldn't take 1-2 hours like a 5e combat often does. We never had players wondering what to do on their turns either. The rest was puzzles and role play scenarios. We had a lot of scary stuff too, which was fun back in the day of satanic panic. (Loved it when we got hold of the Simon Necronomicon and incorporated it into our game fluff.) :D I think the worst part about the WoTC stuff is that now D&D has its same tired mythology that has been institutionalized to the point where the settings are bland and characterless. I still think the best D&Ders are those that actually read fantasy and don't need this canned fluff.

[@richmcgee434]

WotC's tending to cater to players over GMs with their crunchy stuff these days (which makes sense - more sales to players because there are just more of them buying) but there's other stuff out there. You can find an awful lot of that kind of "DM's helper toolkit" material in the OSR community, you know. And a lot of it is either fairly system-agnostic or designed outright to work with early-edition D&D clones. And WotC hasn't been all bad at GM aid. While 4e is often villified for its mechanics (*not* something I agree with at all) the DM's Guides (particularly the second one) for the edition were full of good advice and (system-specific) tools for the game, more so that the 3/3.5 ones were IMO. It's not surprising that 13th Age (which shares designers and some gameplay elements with 4e) also has a ton of excellent advice and tools for GMs, while avoiding the somewhat excessive level of mechanical complexity that 4e had.

[@VioletDeliriums]

k...i watched all these DA series reviews. it seems to me the we might say that Dave Arneson was better at making rules/mechanics than adventures (the best one was the one where Arneson is not an author), while with Gary Gygax it is probably the opposite (the 1979 DMG has very important stuff in it -- invaluable ideas for the kinds of rules that would be useful, but the mechanics are not so good and sometimes have to be rethought). they probably needed each other to really make it work in the beginning...As a DM, Arneson might be described as the exact opposite of Sly Fluorish, with far too much prep... Funny thing, I learned a lot of principles of adventure design, running a game, and sometimes even mechanics from the Keep and Isle of Dread, and i get a lot out of other published dungeons as well, esp. the ones with towns in them (like Hommlet)... But I don't think I get any ideas about what to do from this series. Sad. I would have liked to.

[@captcorajus]

That's a pretty accurate summation IMHO.

[@WarhavenSC]

7:10 -- So... humans can never become immortals? They have no level caps, if I recall correctly?

[@captcorajus]

You're thinking of AD&D. In D&D, the level cap is 36.

[@bluelionsage99]

I never had or read this set. Not sure why, I bought almost everything available.

[@pjm3005]

you really didn't miss anything - except for being disappointed by a module cover that had NOTHING to do with what was in the adventure. i guess that this series was a pretty good overview of what arneson's contribution to the overall legacy of d&d was; gygax left a legacy of classic stuff like Greyhawk, the Giants, Drow and Hommlet and arneson left behind these 3 or (if you want to be generous) 4 modules that could be summed up as "a mess". if you get the chance, read through these modules and by the end it will be clear why arneson's name isn't anywhere near a single AD&D book.

[@Leftylives]

Technically players could achieve immortal through Entropy, although the rules say that it should not be done.. but I think that was just the evil character bias of the time. It was an eye opening experience when I read the rules on ascending through entropy.. one of the ways to ascend through Entropy was by making a dungeon that is so vast that no adventures could ever solve it.. I immediately thought of how vast Undermountain is, and I finally understood why so many dungeons are made. I mean it seems obvious now, but at the time it was like a light went off.. They are trying to prove themselves to the Entropy Patrons, to get sponsorship.

[@captcorajus]

Nice! I'd forgot about that little tidbit, and so true!

[@Leftylives]

@@captcorajus I think it was in the Rules Cyclopedia for OD&D that I read it, but it might be one of the other obscure OD&D supplements they put out at the time. I have a few pdf versions of that stuff I read through sometimes for inspiration.

[@craigtucker1290]

@@Leftylives Undermountain is in Forgotten Realms and does not use the same rules as the Known World/Mystara for achieving Immortal/god status. There is a whole different procedure altogether. Also, Undermountain serves another purpose and has been home to and under control of different races before Halaster really took over. Even Skullport is under control of another group/entity than Halaster.

[@Leftylives]

@@craigtucker1290 Buzzkill.. I was only giving an example. You are jumping to conclusions..

[@Leftylives]

@@craigtucker1290 But since you brought it up I broke out my copy of the Rules Cyclopedia and not only does it give rules for converting to AD&D on page, it also mentions all the AD&D product lines that were out at the time. While It does say that "the immortals and the deities should not be converted between the two", should is the operative word here. Should is not a definitive word, it's an as you wish statement. In reality the immortals and the deities occupy the same planes of existence so it make no sense that they must be separated. And many of the deities in the Deities and Demigods books are exactly the same as the immortals.

[@killfear]

11:15 -- wasn't this in the era when xp = gold earned? if so, the table is really negotiating how much XP they'll get for competing this mission, yes?

[@captcorajus]

I was merely stating the fact there there is a real possibility that the PC's existence would be erased due to a time paradox if they didn't complete the mission, so the negotiate for gold seemed a bit crazy. And typically, one didn't get XP for AWARDED gold, only that gold found amongst the lairs of the creatures the party had slain.

[@adampender2482]

I've always felt that Lorraine William's has been unjustly vilified over the years as someone who stole the company from Gary Gygax. Everyone forgets that her job was to right the sinking ship. But I've begun to look at what happened from 2 new angles none seems to touch on. TSR under Gygax suffered from one big problem that every school or business or church or game stores for that matter. It suffered from the cliques within the company. I think there were 3 groups of people there. Those that were friends of Gary and wanted to game and live it up, those that saw the game and company as a cashflow which would be the Blumes and Williams, and those that saw the potential and future of the game and company. This last group would include the creators, writers and artists that soared to new heights during 2nd edition. The three groups could not and would not live in harmony. Each wanted their sacred cow to look different. Infighting always leads to ruin if those who are fighting can't agree on the end product. Gary was a terrible businessman. He churned out product but by the end the quality was very lacking. Unearthed Arcana and Oriental Adventures were not the classics they became. There were many grumbles at the time. TSR under him while successful was a business ran by gamers. It would become a business ran by business men after Gary. But they couldn't stop what was coming next. The kids who started gaming at 10-12 years of age or in college were by the 90s in their early to mid-twenties. They had more disposable income but less of the one commodity they needed the most. They had less time. AD&D is a slow and long game. It requires a lot of time and work for preparation and playing. That time wasn't available to the gamers of the early to mid 80s as they headed into the mid-90s. Games needed to be faster. 3-4 hours for Warhammer Fantasy Battles isn't bad but MTG is way faster than that. Those 2 soared while your typical ttrg declined. I don't think Gary could have changed this.

[@shitmandood]

I sometimes feel that Gary was kicked out of his own business the same way Steve Jobs was kicked out of Apple. Had Gary remained, maybe we wouldn't have gotten so much rehash, like coming out with 2nd Edition D&D? Definitely, wasn't the same after they kicked Gary...and for what? Money? The accounting bottomline? Accountants are what screw it all up.

[@Se7enBeatleofDoom]

Pass the douchy to the gaming table.

[@WarDogMadness]

the downfall of TSR sounds exactly whats happened with star wars and Disney

[@HermieMunster]

TSR had its problems but it ways light years ahead of DEI.

[@captcorajus]

Never heard of DEI

[@beezyonbass3906]

It’s funny how many of these videos need minor revisions post “The Game Wizards.”

[@captcorajus]

Oh? What sort of revision?

[@beezyonbass3906]

@@captcorajus a lot of the narrative re: the Blume’s mismanagement wasn’t quite accurate. Gary was less of a hero and more of an active participant in said mismanagement. It also revises the narrative re: Lorraine William’s takeover of TSR. She was less of a villain than earlier statements indicated. It’s worth a read if you haven’t dug into it yet. Jon Peterson’s work is, as always, immaculately researched. Ben Riggs’ Slaying the Dragon goes into detail re: The Williams era TSR and that also paints a much less brutal picture of her as an executive post takeover. It contains a lot more positive quotes, from her subordinates, than I expected to see for sure.

[@captcorajus]

@@beezyonbass3906 I can tell you that thing I mention in my videos comes directly from people like Tim Kask, Jim Ward and others who were there.. AND let me add, told at conventions and such in the 90s and Early 2000s. I'll definitely check it out, but I tend to be quite critical of historical narratives that are written some 40 years later. The Blume's mismanagement is well documented, and I've never said Gary was a 'hero'. Gary's own issues are well known, especially while he was away in Hollywood. As far as Lorraine Williams goes.... Gary hired her. She colluded with the Blumes to oust Gygax from the company he created. She was the captain of the ship when she allowed it to sink by continuing to use Random House for their publishing, long after TSR had the resources to create their own publishing house, a misstep that resulted in the end of the company and paved the way for WOTC. Here's a good read. Lengthy, but is a well documented account on how Gary lost control of TSR. medium.com/@increment/the-ambush-at-sheridan-springs-3a29d07f6836

[@beezyonbass3906]

@@captcorajus Jon Peterson published The Game Wizards 2 years ago. Sheridan springs was written by him 9ish years ago. He says in the foreword to The Game Wizards that he has learned a lot in his research since then. Game Wizards contains an updated version of that, plus the history of TSR from the invention of D&D-ish through Gary’s departure. It also updates some things he says he got wrong in Playing at the World. Trust me. You’ll want to read it. It does change the narrative a bit. Gary didn’t really bring Lorraine in with good intentions. One could argue he was out maneuvered by someone he tried to victimize. It’s worth a read. Slaying the Dragon has a lot of info on the random house deal. It was the only thing that allowed TSR to print lavish boxed sets and hardcovers. I’m not pretending things were run perfectly, but if you read Slaying, it’s very obvious that Random House deal is the only reason we got Planescape, Dark Sun, etc. It was honestly something that worked in their favor, until sales began to decline. Then TSR made a series of desperate decisions that lead to the company’s demise. But the random house deal, per se, wasn’t a bad deal. TSR just did dumb things like trying to court another publisher in a futile attempt to get Random House to forgive some of their debt. Both are worth a read for sure.

[@captcorajus]

@@beezyonbass3906 Sounds like a good read, thanks, I'll have to check it out.

[@ishmiel21]

Part of the reason for TSRs financial situation during this time. Was because of Gary’s lavish spending habits when he was in Hollywood pretending to be a superstar.

[@captcorajus]

Gygax's adventures while in Hollywood are indeed the stuff of legend, however, it was the Blume Brother's lavish personal spending that obliterated TSR's cash reserves.

[@bruceheard3841]

@@captcorajus And LW buying out the Blume brothers' stock, giving her control of TSR.

[@ishmiel21]

@@captcorajus Who do you think was paying for the legendary adventures of Gary? Certainly not Gary himself. The mansion he was living in, the parties, the private jets... it goes on and on. Placing all the blame on the Blumes is letting Gary off a little too easy.

[@captcorajus]

@@ishmiel21 I never said Gary wasn't spending, but conversely one could argue he was playing the Hollywood game. TSR did well with the licensing for the cartoon. I'm certainly not letting him off scot free... i was riffing on Gygax's RPG legendary journeys ;). However, HE was not running the company at the time... the BLUMES were. Spending wasn't the sole problem here. It was compounded by the decline in sales, and corresponding reduction in revenue. THAT falls squarely on the Blumes as that's what they were responsible for. The problem with the Blumes is highlighted by the fact that once Gygax returned, and put out product people wanted TSR was able to SELL their way out of the problem.

[@ishmiel21]

@@captcorajus I hear ya, dude. I do. We've provably all had the same books and seen the same movies The Blumes totally screwed TSR up and over big time. No doubt about it. All I'm saying is that Gary was sent West because he was playing at being a celebrity rather than doing his job. Gary was living it up and rightfully so, but he did lose focus on what was important. Gary absolutely plays a part in the downfall of TSR, though people like the BLumes played a larger role.

[@professor4202]

lol @ a "spoiler warning" for a product that's 33 years old.

[@joshjames582]

Everything's new to somebody.

[@captcorajus]

I think its a good idea to tell people what I intend to reveal, even if its decades old. :)

[@richmcgee434]

If anything, its age makes it even less likely to be known by younger players - and gamers under 40 make up the vast majority of D&D players these days. It's also nowhere near as commonly discussed as (say) Keep on the Borderlands, so less likely to have been spoiled previously.

[@craigtucker1290]

Gary left (was not fired) when he realized he had lost control of TSR due to his own incompetence on who he picked to have shares with and the share options he came up with. This was of his own doing and his ridiculous need to try and entice Hollywood to be interested in D&D, something that has never really worked out. Though, without his lack of business acumen, it is doubtful 2nd edition would have come about and all the other great settings would have never been so detailed.

[@captcorajus]

Sorry... the assertion that Gary didn't understand business is simply not supported by the facts. His return to TSR and his ability to bring the company back to solvency demonstrates otherwise. What Gary lacked was good people management skills. That was his achilleas heel. Gygax was already working on a 2E when he was let go from TSR. While it is true that he 'left voluntarily' it was BECAUSE Williams made it clear there was no future active role for him in the company.

[@craigtucker1290]

@@captcorajus No, the assertion is correct for having good "people skills" is known as management, something he wasn't good at, nor was he a good judge of character because he picked the Blumes to be his partners. All he did was put out a rushed product to a starving community that was hastily snapped up. Not really a hard thing to do, though many had complaints about what he pushed out that some still complain about to this day. Gary left on his own accord, he wasn't actually fired even if that was a likely outcome. If Gary had not run afoul of his own poor decisions, 2nd edition would have been entirely different than what it was. I don't think it would have been as good for Gary's style was not as refined and while he was an innovator, he was not a particularly good game designer. There were many poorly written parts in 1st edition, bad mechanics, and poorly thought ideas (like how to be a DM) that were cleaned up when other game designers worked the game. Still, D&D would not have come about without both Dave and Gary, and for that I am thankful. I am also saddened by the direction WotC has taken D&D for it little resembles the game it once was.

[@dr.winstonsmith]

@@craigtucker1290 I haven’t checked D&D official product since 3rd Edition. What has WotC wrought for good or ill in 5th Edition?

[@craigtucker1290]

@@dr.winstonsmith 5th edition has done its best to nerf death with things like the death save mechanic and most save or die effects have been removed and one no longer has to memorize spells anymore. 5th edition also relies heavily on advantage/disadvantage which is just rolling the dice twice and taking the best or worst result, respectively. Another interesting thing that absolutely failed in 5th edition was an idea to limit the amount of magical items one could have with the attunement rules (limit of 3 attuned magical items). Now you would think the way it would work is that attuned items would be items that require active control while items that didn't require attunement were passive in nature, but this is not the case. Instead, it is a randomly figured out method that makes absolutely no sense. Consequently, most groups house rule the number of attuned items beyond 3, even though WotC has specifically said not to do so for game balance. It just seems the game has been not only dumbed down from what is was, but that how one plays it has also changed in that you play it more like a video game where you know you can tank so much damage before you have to worry. This is different than the TSR era where you had to play cautious, lest you be taken out with a failed save. WotC has also ruined much of the lore specific to each setting from TSR with their changes, followed by the disastrous attempt in 4th edition where WotC tried to rewrite the D&D multiverse in a spectacular failure. Needless to say, 5th edition isn't much better off now that WotC seems to be blending some of the settings together. I can't say I like the current edition since it has very little in the way of options compared to earlier editions like 2nd or 3rd edition, the settings are almost completely unsupported with very few sourcebooks, and there are no consequences in character design, only benefits which seems kind of snowflake-ish. It is such a mollycoddled version of D&D where the game is no longer allowed to say no and the possibility of dying is heavily sanitized out of the game to the point it seems designed more for children than adults. On the plus side, the artwork has gotten better since 3rd edition.

[@dr.winstonsmith]

@@craigtucker1290 Thanks for the detailed, thoughtful response. I wonder if that is one of the reasons why 3rd Ed and earlier D&D items have spiked in value on eBay the past couple years.

[@stantheman8175]

Uh, did you say "amazing" in context to "SpellJammer". That shit way gay.

[@captcorajus]

Sorry, I loved Spelljammer, but each to their own.

[@craigtucker1290]

@@captcorajus No, I have to agree that Spelljammer was terrible, but what would you expect for something that was proposed during a "working" lunch meeting with alcohol. Ultimately, Spelljammer failed in its mandate to connect all settings together and was replaced by Planescape which made the multiverse seem larger and successfully connected the multiverse together, rather than what amounted to pigs in space that was Spelljammer. If anything, Spelljammer made the multiverse seem smaller and confined with little tiny crystal spheres rather than the vastness of space.

[@pjm3005]

@@captcorajus you suck for not calling that guy out for using gay as a synonym for something that's crappy.

[@pjm3005]

you're a tool for using gay as a synonym for something that's crappy. quit doing it.

[@adampender2482]

@@pjm3005 I'm sure they're both crushed and devastated by your triggering.