RPSA featured on Rip-off Britain talking about spray foam insulation

[@ChristianWagner888]

I agree that closed cell spray foam applied under the roofing tiles of that very old house was a really bad idea. Nevertheless, forcing people to remove the spray foam, when it was apparently performing acceptably for seven years makes little sense. The surveyor did not actually discover any rotten wood and did not seem to report excessive moisture content in the rafters. There may also be ways of mitigating the risk without ripping out the whole roof. Lenders should be able to verify the status of installation on an individual basis rather than fully excluding one technology. There are plenty of bad installations of external wall insulation systems using polystyrene for example, but lenders do not seem to care about the risk of these.

[@sygad1]

Unbelievable, paid cash, no survey and then says the cost is on her........yeah, it's YOUR house and as you say, deal with the problems as you find them.......utterly maddening when people cut corners and then cry about it

[@captain_black32]

I had this on my previous house. Cost in region of £5k to remove and that’s the average price they all charge. The workers did it by hand rather than a machine and it took 3 days to remove. Luckily there was no serious damage and the house was sellable. It wasn’t the building surveyor however it was the mortgage valuator who said it had to come off as since 2022 no mortgage company will lend if this is installed apart from nationwide if you have the original paperwork and even then it’s highly likely they will still turn it down.

[@garnhamr]

I'd put cellotex etc in between the rafters if anything but the majority of heat should stop at the ceiling anyway. just put more effort into insulating the attic floor...

[@richardchampion1034]

I deal with this all the time as I work for a company where we deal with getting people money back for both installation and extraction, but there is a caveat, did you pay on credit card?

[@josephmorton9478]

So is open cell foam insulation ok?

[@bololo2000]

I think is a lot of marketing and there is not a big difference between closed and open cell foam performance when talking about moisture transfer.The whole foam shit has other problems (fire safety, ecology, replaceability in the future), when we have other materials like glass or mineral wool, cellulose or wood fibre to use.

[@Inkling777]

It's not just in the UK. In the U.S. some insulation contractors push hard for what's called a "conditioned attic." Rather than insulating just the living areas, they tell homeowners to insulate their attic too. That typically means blowing foam between the rafters. Instead, I went with blown-in cellulose for my home and I am delighted with the result. I not only have excellent insulation, cellulose also provides sound-proofing, insect-proofing, and great fire protection. Cellulose is very resistant to burning. It's only weakness is that it doesn't like to be wet, so I used fiberglass around my eaves. The key factor in this dispute is, I suspect, that most homeowners can install blown-in cellulose insulation themselves. Home improvement stores will even loan them the blowers to do that. In contrast foam insulation requires skills most homeowner don't have and thus requires a contractor.

[@johnbull5394]

Yes! I love cellulose too. Mine is on the attic floor (cold loft) and also under my suspended ground floor to keep my feet warm. It also seems to have deterrred mice from the loft, which was a bonus. Given that cellulose fibre is breathable, how did you ensure there wouldn't be condensation on the cold side of the insulation (i.e. on the back of your tiles or shingles)? Did you install a vapour barrier on the warm side of the insulation, or did you somehow ventilate the cold side, or is it simply not a problem in your climate?

[@philhensley5986]

If the ceiling is properly air sealed, the right amount of insulation will keep the temperature differentials separated eliminating thepossibility of condensation. @@johnbull5394

[@kbmotorsportsonline]

Why not remove the roofing tiles to inspect the framing instead of ripping the closed cell foam out?

[@Inkling777]

That was discussed. Removing for inspection wouldn't work with old tiles. They'd have to be replaced and that would be expensive.

[@carlmorris7723]

You can’t

[@juliebrooke6099]

I don’t imagine any building of that age is very airtight. Ventilation will be more than adequate. The foam has clearly been doing its job without issue. Mortgage lenders should take each installation on an individual basis.

[@sorbetingle]

Have the owners tried using a " Solvent ".....it would remove the foam by disintegration....with no need to take tiles off

[@johnbull5394]

I don't think the foam will dissolve once it has set.

[@sorbetingle]

@@johnbull5394 right....its probably set too hard to dissolve the foam with any form of chemical....i was thinking along the lines of the foam being like polystyrene, u know when u spread certain types of glue (UHU) the polystyrene dissolves.

[@helenwoodswoods7599]

Can we claim from the insurance backed guarantee

[@timkenny8623]

Probably not, the guarantee is likely to only cover a failure of the product itself not the dame the product does to the timbers. It is however worth having a look at the full wording of any documents.

[@Uzuriuk]

Sad to say, but that is why you get a survey.

[@muffemod]

Wait, why was she crying?

[@love_surveying]

Because the spray foam has damaged the property illegally. It's her home, and it will cost a lot of money.

[@muffemod]

@@love_surveying Oh I get it. OH I GET IT! 😠

[@Uzuriuk]

Because she failed to get a survey prior to purchase, and then ignored it when subsequetly advised about it. It's going to cost so, Yeah, I'd be crying too.

[@allanphillips5930]

I might be able to assist this client if they want to get in touch

[@helenwoodswoods7599]

Hi. We are in the same position. Do you have any advice please

[@ashtonwoodturnings225]

@@helenwoodswoods7599 We have it in our bungalow , and the off gassing is starting to get us down, Do you find any help ?

[@EPCRh]

I've had surveys where they don't even look in the loft..

[@richardchampion1034]

@@helenwoodswoods7599how did you pay? I travel throughout the UK dealing with this…

[@jasonbuksh2958]

Hard to feel sorry for her - she took a risk not getting a survey done and has exposed herself. No one to blame but herself

[@johnbull5394]

Pfff. It's undoubtedly bad work, but the real problem was saleability of the property when the mortgage company pulled out. You could argue it was a fire hazard, and that it might have been increasing the risk of rot in the timbers, but every house I have ever lived in has had some kind of inappropriate work carried out, so what's new? Makes it very hard to carry out repairs or makes it very hard to inspect the condition of the tiles (as would sarking felt) are not really reasons to call a building defective, so all she really lost was the sale value of the property, which is entirely determined by what the buyer and lender are prepared to pay. In any case, many mortgage companies will not lend on non-standard construction buildings, so this might have been solved by simply trying another mortgage firm.

[@xx.1.]

Her own fault for buying the house without surveying

[@superkoo5]

completely unfair on homeowners and legit installers. Surveyors punishing them for the issues caused by the minority

[@love_surveying]

Why are surveyors punishing them? Multiple examples of poor installation causing rot. In addition, the banks won't lend a mortgage until it is sorted.

[@superkoo5]

So what about the good installers? The majority who actually put the product in properly and have never had any issues till now? Yes banks won’t lend a mortgage because the surveyors have taken a ‘one size fits all’ approach to spray foam and giving homes a Nil valuation just because it has foam even if it’s installed correctly with no issues

[@bengrillet]

I totally agree - this was a horrendous and irresponsible decision by the RPSA to issue this blanket indescriminate advice to write off the value of approximately 250k homes like mine (so far and increasing daily), that have had sprayfoam loft insulation. They absolutely should not have done this with such cavalier abandon, in respect of their power and influence on peoples lives and financial security. The matter requires immediate and radical reassessment. This is serious.

[@deezynar]

This is typical sensationalistic "journalism." We don't need to see a nice woman in tears, but TV reporters absolutely thrive on getting women to cry on TV. Just explain the science involved so viewers can make informed decisions. This report is classic TV reporting, do it cheap and fast, with minimum research, and no specialized graphics that would show what is actually happening.

[@bodymindfitco]

What are you talking about? The main problem is that spray foam insulation companies don't tell you about the future saleability of your house. Most mortgage lenders won't touch a property with spray foam, as we've found to our detriment.

[@deezynar]

@@bodymindfitco To the credit of the reporter, it was stated that spray foam is good except when installed in a few locations in a building. It is NOT a bad product in ALL locations. The news story they should have reported is why the mortgage companies decided to blacklist buildings with spray foam in any situation. If I was a reporter, I'd smell a story in that. If you were screwed by mortgage companies, you should be pushing for better information about spray foam put in front of the public so mortgage companies will be forced to do what is right. There is no doubt that the installer who put the foam against the tile didn't know what he was doing, and he created serious problems for the homeowner. That's a worthy story, but it doesn't need the classic crying woman. What the report does need is more detail on where spray foam is actually a superior product. As for the woman crying, you will notice it from now on because I have rammed this in your face, TV news reporters intentionally get women to cry on camera. From now on, you will notice how many women are shown crying in TV reports.

[@trevorstrutt1]

​@@bodymindfitco canada sure has no problem with it at all ..its an amazing material

[@i.m.u.r4244]

Unless used in the construction process for real purposes it’s pretty useless anyway , seems like a niche con. Inhabitable loft spaces should be breathable spaces surly is more beneficial to insulate more at truss level to prevent heat escape into the loft . Wouldn’t the escaping heat coming into the space prevent heat trapped from recirculating back down to the habitable living spaces anyway ?