RTS Health Check: State of the Genre

Clickbait Title: DEAD GENRE? Gravestone.png with red circle and surprised KZbinr face.
Is RTS dead? Probably not, but lets spend the best part of 20 minutes looking into that. We'll examine the state of releases and the community, as well as take a look at why a single unrepresentative game series has skewed a lot of people's perceptions about how popular it once was and has masked what has mostly always been a small but stable niche genre.
Discord: / discord
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00:00 Intro
00:41 What is "Dead" anyway?
04:24 Starcraft
11:15 Releases
13:48 Community
15:50 Summary and Outro
Image courtesy of Maximusnukeage at English Wikipedia, CC BY 3.0 creativecommons.org/licenses/..., via Wikimedia Commons
Unless otherwise specified, footage is either recorded by me or taken from official game trailers or demo reels. Unless otherwise specified, Images are either my own, AI generated, Free and Royalty-Free Stock, Public News or from Wikipedia. Backing Music is from the KZbin creator audio library or the games themselves. The script is my own work, and the voice over is me.

[@DeusExDraconian]

RTS underwent a devolution into MOBA games. A fate worse than death, some might say, but also lucrative for its publishers.

[@LucasCunhaRocha]

people say this, but almost everyone I used to play dota/HoN with never liked RTS in the first place, MOBAs only attracted people that weren't RTS players to begin with. IMO one of the reasons why RTS shrinked so much is because of the consolitis that the market went under the mid 2000s.

[@Ethereal311]

We have stats for this. Only 36% of RTS players actually play MOBAs, compared with 47% sandbox, 58% shooters and 75% RPGs.

[@user-pr1dh2bw6k]

@@Ethereal311 I wonder which community I am if I basically play all of them (?)

[@DrTheRich]

I disagree, MOBA is exclusively multiplayer. It might have killed the competitive RTS multiplayer scene. But most of the popular RTS games were played offline. a game genre being "dead" is a very multiplayer focused idea anyway. Offline games only "die" when all copies become unplayable.

[@Ribulose15diphosphat]

Dungeon Keeper did not. Fans made a Remake (Keeper FX), while the Mobile Game flopped so bad, a british court banned calling it a game.

[@golongself]

The flags blowing in different directions distracts me more than I would have expected.

[@GoldenPantaloons]

Oh no. Reading that sentence should be classified as a memetic hazard. Somebody pass the amnestics please, I want to go back.

[@somedude4087]

you...

[@dmitriyrasskazov8858]

Kain still has hp which means Kain lives!

[@The_whales]

Canonical I think he was punished to be immortal after killing his brother

[@ElectroFeel]

Peace through RTS!

[@burhanbudak6041]

Why are you quiet, it's KANE LIVES!

[@cdgncgn]

@@The_whales not really, just from being taken out in a similar manner after he did not repent. And he went to the land of Nod. Overall, the game serves as a PR vehicle for this kind of sect, like that Double U Ee Ef types of unhinged people.

[@Tinyuvm]

The future is in the hands of Slav Indie game developers!

[@jonas8588]

Did you heard about Shrot from Spytihněv, the author of Hrot? xD An RTS similiar to CaC

[@TheArklyte]

You must be new to PC and internet if you noticed slav gamedevs only now😅 If anything, it's on down right now with ukranian devs not being able to work and many russian devs having to leave Russia to work normally. Not to mention it's not 2000's anymore, most dev studios and publishers of that era aren't with us anymore:(

[@Tinyuvm]

@@TheArklyte No, I'm not new to the internet, but I'm somewhat new to the eastern gaming scene as many titles that I enjoyed were made by Hungarians, Serbs, Slovaks, Russians and Yes, Ukrainians. I m

[@TheArklyte]

@@Tinyuvm you comment cuts off after "I m"

[@samfire3067]

*violin of The city must survive *

[@bificommander7472]

Healthcheck for Homeworld 3: "Do you have any family or loved ones we should call?"

[@Coyote332]

God, you are such a cool KZbinr, I wish British people were real 😔

[@kaluventhebritish]

I am trying to very hard to force myself to exist right now.

[@GoldenPantaloons]

Alas, a man can dream...

[@TheBobledanois]

I feel like the rts genre isn't made for huge games by big publishers : the triple A tendency to add too much functionalities and different gameplay is at odd with the fact rts are best when they are easy to learn and hard to master. Some gems keep being pushed by little studio, like empire of the undergrowth recently, and I think that's were the community and the genre is heading : medium games polished for years with great and unique flavors.

[@kaluventhebritish]

Sounds like a future I could get behind, especially as anything from a big publisher often comes with buckets of microtransactions which I'm sure we could all do without.

[@lincolnsnow6166]

I think the genre is generally doing pretty well, I think part of it's recent stagnation has come from what has felt like a bit of genre re-treading similar to MMOs and WoW. Where new developers weren't trying to make a new MMO, they are trying to make a new WoW and by chasing a pre-existing product, they fail to make a good game. Thankfully I think we are beyond that phase now and there is more variation in new titles, which has imo lead to more interesting titles.

[@kaluventhebritish]

As a long-time MMO enjoyer you're totally spot with the WoW comparison. People stopped innovating and just tried to make games more like WoW and each of them failed because they were too like WoW to attract anyone who wasn't a WoW fan, and those people already had WoW. I think that's why I loved Company of Heroes so much, it wasn't trying to be C&C, Starcraft, AoE or TA, but instead expanded on the concepts the developer had tried in DoW and made a game that was very different.

[@kngod5337]

he said "go and build a cool base" as i had factorio on the background

[@Tyneras]

There is something I call the "Only Game In Town Effect". When you are the only game in town, you get a lot of players, because its that or nothing and it creates a false sense of popularity or success. But the moment any sort of alternative comes along, you bleed audience like no tomorrow. You see this a fair bit in small towns, where a long established business keels over and dies the moment any competition shows up because they weren't actually very good or efficiently run, they were just the only game in town. As computer hardware allowed more variety of games, RTS's lost the segment of the audience that played it because it was the best available rather than what they really wanted. And, of course, the hit and miss of advertising and word of mouth, and as you pointed out the confounding segment of players that are a "specific game fan" rather than a "genre fan".

[@iwantagoodnameplease]

This is true for the PVP games. No-one wants to buy, or play, a "dying" PVP game.

[@renegaderu5126]

If we are talking about popularity, then we also need to look at the age component of the community. Yes, of course there are young indie developers, there are new players, but most of them are those who have caught more c&c releases. Those who watch starcraft tournaments without ever playing it. When they leave, will the community have the same purchasing power to remain attractive for the release of large projects like AoE4. This is not a question of the next 5 years, it is a question of 20-30 years ahead. If we look at how Stormgate/ZeroSpace was supported on kickstarter, then now the community is still very alive and able to make a profit.

[@chromesucks5299]

I have been saying this for years and 'Project Pitchers/marketing people' looked at starcraft 2's success and popularity and took the wrong message, that INCLUDES how they built and marketed their games, Wanting to make quiicker /moba style or esports-targeting game, where they thought their game would become an esports darling. This happened to Cnc4 and it happened to dow 3 too, and so many other games. Instead of wanting to make a good game first and community around it. And as for releases, You should have includes the Men of war games, The continued interest in EaW/Foc and its modding scene and The Steel division games.

[@ericlizama8552]

It would be cool if you included RTS games beyond the strict definition, including games such as the Pikmin series and factory games. (Factorio, Satisfactory, etc.)

[@kaluventhebritish]

I agree! The truth is I've not really played these games much at all, and as such I don't really feel qualified to talk about them in enough detail to do them justice. Something that will change in the future I hope.

[@ACCB710]

I always hated how NOD the soviets or the japanese get no healing for their infantry... Good things mods exist personally i recommend Tiberium Essence for Tiberium War 3 And the High Tech mod for Red Alert 3(something something tech i forgot thr actual name) And as for stuff like Tiberian sun you can easily edit the unit files to add a medic unit to Nod by copy pasting the GDI medic information for Nod's army (you can google how it is done it aint hard)

[@Tucher97]

The issue with tracking popularity with RTS games is that they are can be drastically different from each other, like sure there is base building, collect resources, train troops, but even then, the how and such are still different, end result, they will play differently as starcraft 2 will drastically play different from age of empires 2 or even command and conquer.

[@ethanforster]

Wargame European Escalation was 2012

[@EmperorSigismund]

DORF is my most anticipated RTS at the moment. Until then Mechabellum is scratching that strategy itch. It's technically a turn based autobattler but it has a lot of qualities that hit that RTS spot without having the experience of having to be on your toes, microing and macroing loads of stuff for 20+ minutes.

[@MrCattlehunter]

>RTS isn't dead, even though it went from the definition of mainstream to so extremely niche that people don't even know what the term means anymore and regularly confuse even turn-based games for "RTS", because people still play 20 year old games and occasionally make shit games that nobody plays and which nobody would've played 20 years ago either because they're literally regressing rather than progressing pedantry

[@SamGarcia]

You cannot kill the messiah. -Kane Is what I would say if CnC got something more than a remaster and spiritual successor (like Tempest) recently

[@careypridgeon]

The moment AAA game companies required their products to be online regardless of the mode you were going to play in ended my interest in buying new games from the them. I still buy games, but not from them, mostly older games updated for new computers from GOG or smaller developers.

[@kaluventhebritish]

Thumbs up for GOG, got lots of great stuff from there!

[@thaariqbinaziz2821]

RTS playerbase got split up between variations of the genre that they prefer For those who prefer city building ,We have pure city/park builders like Cities Skylines or simcity For those who prefer PVE RTS , we have Frostpunk and Against the Storm For those who prefer Strategy/planning combat ,we got turn based combat like Xcom or Into the breach For those who prefer Macro, we have 4x games like Civilization or Crusader king For those who prefer Micro, we have MOBAs like Dota or League TLDR : RTS are Niche because it require you to like all 5 aspect of RTS game(city building,PVE/PVP, strategy, macro ,Micro) While most people only like 1-2 aspect of it ,just Play one of the specialize genre for the aspect that you like

[@TheHunter649]

I have to say i subbed to your content about 6 months ago and i have to say you're one of the most underrated youtubers I'm subscribed to, always enjoy your insightful videos.

[@kaluventhebritish]

Thanks, that's very kind.

[@caaitycat8390]

i think the evolution of dawn of war is a good illustration of companies' interpretation of what a RTS might look like versus how an audience think it should look like, where a company would try to hybridise the gameplay to (what I can only assume anyway) hit more targets regarding live service, microtransactions & dlc, and audience types to try and get that $$$. so of course you wind up diluting the actual core of what an RTS is and start heading towards MOBA style which I'm *sure* has an audience type *somewhere* around the globe. but I'm sure not that audience, and I'm pretty sure RTS fans aren't that audience either. regardless, we're never getting another proper DOW dawg (side note, i think you shouldn't use ai, it's difficult to connect with the personality in your video when its veiled under that kind of stuff)

[@kaluventhebritish]

DoW3 was a real case study in a company making the game *they wanted to sell*, rather than *the game people wanted to buy*. Total misfire there. Regarding the AI, I get what you mean. It made sense when I started the channel but I grow less fond of it as time goes on. Unfortunately my art skills are non-existent and my resources are limited so I'm not sure exactly how to do better but I'm sure i'll come up with something one-day.

[@dretchlord873]

@@kaluventhebritish Genuine DOW 3 lover here. The game is good (at least better then the SCHLOP that was DOW 2) was as step in the right direction back to the fun of DOW 1 thanks the doctrine variety, unit variety, and the titans being the creme de la creme but the triple whammy of : premiering a MOBA like mode (even though you control everything else like a usual RTS) before classic annihilation, the (mostly silly and unreasonable) bandwagoning by short sighted gamers lead to what it being abandoned before it was complete, and a mod getting taken down by GW which features the "Anger marines" was the final nail in the coffin that sealed the fate of any possible modding redemption like it did for Soulstorm

[@kaluventhebritish]

@@dretchlord873 you don't meet many DoW3 fans but I'm glad somebody got some enjoyment out of it! I think we share feelings on DoW2. I do wonder if the'll try again another day - from the amount of 40k games on the market I get the impression that GW will sell any developer the licence for about $3.50.

[@jacobwallach7004]

Great video! I love the genre myself so it was nice to hear this more optimistic take. I'm still playing R.U.S.E, BFME, and Halo wars these days. Those three play like classic RTS for me. Newer ones I would recommend are Dune: Spice Wars, Diplomacy is Not an Option, and Manor Lords (still really early development and more city builder). Check 'em out if you haven't tried one of these titles!

[@nanthilrodriguez]

The thing that Starcraft does differently than every other game ever made: there comes a moment in every skirmish where, no matter how good you get, there is also 1 too many things to perfectly manage everything. It is "plate spinning" the game, the more plates you have spinning the higher the risk of one falling and breaking. The problem with Stormgate, Battle Aces, Zerospace, and every other RTS, is they think they only thing worth doing is army control, failing to realize that the reason micro battles in BW are still incredible to watch, isn't because they have huge armies, but because its hard to control even a single unit without letting your base management slip. RTS developers need to relearn the fundamentals of RTS design. That having bits of the game to overcome is literally a core component of the game and not an obstacle to enjoying the game. In a game about having to do 10 equally important things RIGHT NOW, if you cut out 5 of the things, you've cut out half the game.

[@lostbutfreesoul]

I've quite enjoyed RTS hybrids, giving the concept a completely new look. From the command position, it feels like a R.T.S game with players that carry out your orders in real time From a player perspective, it feels like a X type game but with a commander deciding the orders in real time The ultimate game I keep thinking on would have heavy RTS elements, as players will be encouraged to make their own military structures and try to take over a key points on a massive world map. Those whom hold the points will need some system to build defenses, and hire non-players to man them at times the players are not available. Those whom plan on taking said points will need some forward base to operate out of, if they ever intend to succeed against a well fortified position. Sieging that point though, that will take some players really good at aiming and firing weapons in first person, with added Role playing statistics to give said players the 'thrill' of displayable experience.

[@karlbarx1819]

I'm definitely not in the zeitgeist of gaming but I feel like I've been doing very well for RTS games. The Cold War space has been blessed by both Warno and Regiments. With many in those circles anticipating the near future setting Broken Arrow release. Though probably not RTS city builders seem to be in the same spot. Your video has been a wonderful breakdown and I hope you keep up the good work.

[@followingtheroe1952]

I think that strategy games need to commit to whether or not they are going to be board-game derivative PvP or asymettrical PvE on a design bible level. Its hard to foster strategy communities that have high enough throughput to have a healthy PvP population that also isn't too insular. I think of AoE2 as a game thats big enough to survive the gamemode archipelago. Because a game fractures with multiple gamemodes. Its a dillema because you also need multiple gamemodes that are noob-accessible (1v1s having the highest skill ceiling) I don't think PvE has been fully tapped into. But sometimes a game will either tap into the hybridization of tower defense/city-builder (They are Billions) or Logistics (arguably Factorio). In some sense Factorio can be considered an RTS, at least its heavily inspired by Starcraft. But I think the similarities between Factorio and RTS hasn't been tapped into enough, and that not enough games have hybridized RTS and logistics games or even city builders. PvE RTS is really in a pupal stage, because anything that branches into PvE mechanics either leans so much into city building, logistics, or tower defense, you can't really say its an RTS the way 90s kids were brought up on.

[@iwantagoodnameplease]

You say PvE RTS is a pupal stage, but isn't that what the single player mode is? :) What made AOE2 or Starcraft 1 popular in the first place was the single player. The multiplayer was something of a side show which just happened to out shine the main stage in their case.

[@iwantagoodnameplease]

1. It's funny you mention DOD. I just watched a video released on the same day as this one called ' The Remaining Players on Steam's Oldest Games ' :) 2. Something your video takes for granted is multiplayer. The entire video seems to be focused around the idea of multiplayer, including using playing figures as an indicator of health. But here's the thing: Market released data and anecdotes from publishers/developers consistently shows that most people play the campaign of RTS, of which a small fraction touches the multiplayer button, of which an even smaller fraction plays PVP, of which an even smaller fraction plays constantly. Or to put it another way: Most people that play RTS games don't play PVP. They play campaign, or single/co-op comp stomps. But the esports crowd is very very loud, and free marketing, so RTS publishers 'chase' this faction. Some, such as Eugen, manage to milk the exact same crowd for decades by re-releasing the same game over and over again. I think RTS needs to return to the campaign-first way of designing games, as happened in the olden days. PVP should be tacked on after thought.

[@kaluventhebritish]

I've always felt this way whenever developers talk about making the next "new amazing RTS". As you say they are way too focused on "pvp" and esports, when really it's great campaign/co-op play and story that gets the majority of the community interested. Even if you look at the Starcraft games, the poster-child of RTS e-sports, they still had really great campaigns . I think for a new RTS to be really successful it's going to have to start with a really fun and memorable campaign, have co-op support from launch and still have a great multiplayer mode. All three of those "pillars" are important and shouldn't be ignored.

[@Youmu_Konpaku_]

I didn't grow up on the rts era since i started playing games mid 2010s Hearing someone knowledge about the nieché is very insightful. Amazing video 👍

[@razorback9999able]

I think the reason why RTS isn't very popular nowadays is something way beyond the RTS dev's control. Shifting player preferences. As more gamers enter gaming in the 2010s to the 2020s, more and more are shifting towards simpler games than complex games like RTS. It's also one of the reasons why greedy AAA publishers won't risk making a new RTS anymore.

[@user-ux8ik9ww8e]

You can just say subhumans and iq dropping

[@DrTheRich]

You don't really need to be an AAA studio anymore, to make an RTS game with the same depth and expansive campaign as 20 years ago. Because the tools have improved so much, that fewer people with less money (inflation corrected) can make the same game as back then. You can see that with Manor Lords of course, guy just started on his own.

[@razorback9999able]

@@DrTheRich If I would make an RTS, I'll take Brood War's and Total Annihilation's mechanics and features and expand it further into one game where macro and micro were at their fullest.

[@kaluventhebritish]

@@DrTheRich It's also worth remembering that many of the original RTS games that we all know and love came from pretty small developers at the time. Some of them grew into giants later on, but I think C&C had something like 30 people working on it and Total Annihilation had about 20.

[@DrTheRich]

@@kaluventhebritish But because of that, those studios back then were the AAA of the industry. Right know they would be called indie or small team.

[@SolaisY]

Really level headed video with views I haven't heard before. I think a lot of people, even in here comment section, make a mistake of comparing "mainstream", "the people", "AAA" of today to 20 years ago when the RTS genre was "popular". One needs to consider how many people play games today now, how demographics shifted, the fact that the console vs pc separation of genre distribution and player base is completely non-existent anymore, etc. I'd say that the numbers of RTS releases, size of playerbase, community, all that is still around the same; it just didn't adjust to the "inflation" caused by a gaming industry that 100 times the size as it was during the golden age of the RTS genre.

[@lettuceman9439]

Could you do a health check on age of Empire? Not just aoe2 but also aoe3 and aoe4. Aoe3 is a good research to delve into from the early launch to it eventually having a stable player base to the point that it had a big modding scene with wars of liberty and Napoleon era being complete overhauls that added 10+ civs. Then DE, which did the forgotten empires route and adopted many of the mod's feature into the official DE release.

[@kaluventhebritish]

I might just do that, it's an interesting topic thanks!

[@DrTheRich]

@@kaluventhebritish If you do, don't forget to include Age of Mythology in that list...

[@RedShocktrooperRST]

I"m curious as to how you look at games like the Eugen Systems games, if you consider them RTS or not. Steel Division, Wargame, and WARNO: Warning Order certainly tell me there's demand for more 'hardcore' RTS.

[@kaluventhebritish]

I don't know the games well enough to comment with any authority, but I use this simple formula: If all of the "strategic" stuff like infrastructure construction, resource acquisition, research and production take place within the battle, I call it an RTS. If those elements happen outside of the battles themselves (in something like a turn-based strategy layer) then I normally call it a RTT or, if the focus is on realism, then "Battle Simulator" is more accurate. If by "hardcore" you mean realistic, then I think there is certainly a good level of demand both inside and outside of Strategy games, which is why games like Warno, DCS and Squad exist.

[@RedShocktrooperRST]

@@kaluventhebritish I'd say WARNO and its forerunners (SD and Wargame) fall more towards Real Time Tactics than Simulator, but fair enough.

[@Pirojok92]

Well, that's an interesting point of view. I'd like to note, however, that there always are smaller companies that produce rts and rtt games. For instance eugen systems created 'wargame' serie. Multiple games about cold war gone hot. Then they switched to steel division serie, large scale ww2 games with high realism degree. Also, just recently they released WARNO, relatively new cold war related game. Men of war also had several franchise launches since 2010 and I'm not even talking about total war series. Surely enough, some people may argue whether or not rtt and rts can be considered the same genre, but I'd say it was rts genre that gave birth to rtt, so... Yeah. Basically it all just further proves your point.

[@ethanforster]

Sins of a Solar Empire was in 20111 just FYI

[@ethanforster]

Wow never mind im old, it was just Trinity that came out in 2011, I cant believe it came out in 2008 makes me feel ancient

[@jayplays9976]

I bought and am playing Unicorn Overlord... RTS might not be mainstream, but it lives.

[@AWholeLegionary]

Kane lives in death when Tempest Rising comes along.

[@MaxwellTornado]

I'm a grand strategy player with awful reflexes, so RT strategy games are way off my home base, but I think Total War might be keeping a lot of RTS fans occupied. I've never played any of them myself, but the campaigns look simple enough to where you could probably play it as a battle simulator.

[@UrlagEntertainments]

Very well made Video!

[@kaluventhebritish]

thanks!

[@mindofmyown8597]

your videos are great man

[@kaluventhebritish]

Thanks!

[@DrTheRich]

I do think it's a bit of a mistake to equate popularity with online play. You seem to be using numbers of online play and e-sports as measurement for popularity. Yes star craft was popular for multiplayer. But all my non gaming friends back in the day knew what Age of Empires was, none had ever heard of StarCraft.

[@theuglyhat8718]

I'm honestly a bit dissapointed you didn't mention Supreme commander, and it's very much still alive mod scene. It'a a good example of how an rts game can stay alive and even prosper over a long time. Plus it's also just a really good game!

[@kaluventhebritish]

Sorry to disappoint! And I agree, Supreme Commander is a great game.

[@Leon_Portier]

Love me some RTS

[@Psychonau]

rts games are a niche because they are a lot more comfortable to be played on pc, so console gamers are left out, developers have a smaller player base and that means less money to be made with rts. In the 90s and early 2000s the rts games were not super demanding, they could run at any potato computer so people who dont own a super high end gaming pc could play rts games fine even if their main gaming platform was not a pc or they were not even that into gaming and it was just a side hobby. as a kid we played rts on our schools computers and those were really bad, i dont think thats possible any more and the younger generation has phones so they probably play less on pc in the first place

[@kaluventhebritish]

I did a bit of research for another video a while back and I found that the PC share was bigger than I thought. Mobile had about 50% of the share, with PC and Console somewhere around 25% each. Considering the size of the gaming market these days that's a hell of a lot of people. It's probably a mix of things, you're right about unsuitability for console as that does half the non-mobile market, and also things like lack of team play, steep learning curve, and high levels of lengthy concentration without breaks all play a part in it. There is also a lot more variety than we used to have so a lot of competition within the market, as things like battle royal, survival and mobas didn't exist back in the 90s/early 2000s. I think the other thing might be that no-one has really created a truly innovative and excellent new RTS in a long time.

[@carboneagle]

The kids today are playing Minecraft, fortnight and ROBLOX (IIRC), on PC. I expect to see a boom in rts in 10-15 years once those kids grow up since the market for it will be much bigger.

[@thierrygrise254]

The worst is that RTS can be succesfully made for console...Halo Wars and R.U.S.E are great examples

[@kumarsalib722]

It's definitely not dead, but many players have moved onto MOBA or 4X games. RTS relies on players having a strong grasp of multitasking, while shooter games mostly just rely on the easily transferrable skills of moving in 2D and aiming in 3D. That makes new shooters much easier to pick up for most players.

[@kaluventhebritish]

You're right that the multitasking certainly creates a challenge. Takes a lot of skill and practice to juggle all of those balls at once , I'm not very good at it but I do find it very rewarding when I manage to pull it off well. Although I play them, I'm also not great at MOBAs or FPS but that's probably because I'm old.

[@Kiiltec]

Now that you mention it... there is still life left in command and conquer. There have been some stinkers but fatique for the c&c franchise is realatively low or non existant, getting some cpr with the remakes

[@nurgleschosen8145]

The League of Legends heresy and its effects on the rts industry.

[@CRSH3000]

Total war was going pretty well up until a few years ago. Publisher is shutting on it though as per usual

[@kaluventhebritish]

I lost all my respect for them when they decided that Total War: Warhammer was a better name than Total Warhammer. I mean come on, it basically writes itself.

[@CRSH3000]

@@kaluventhebritish Haha yeah 100% Honestly that in a nutshell shows the disconnect between company and fans. It just makes sense; Everybody just calls it Total Warhammer anyways, but you just know they probably didn't name it that because of some brand/marketing bs.

[@TankGuy3]

Honestly, Halo Wars was meh for me. I think I logged an hour or two. 15:20 The modding scene for Dawn of War is great. That's what kept me going with it for like 300 hours. Not a massive playtime, but still a decent chunk.

[@kaluventhebritish]

I've never thought to check out the modding scene for DoW, 300 hours of entertainment is pretty good for the price of a game in my book.

[@ryuzariclyotocauad-gc4bq]

the coh background. cool

[@kaluventhebritish]

I did feel a bit stupid at the time recording 5 minutes of nothing while some shift-queued units ran past occasional in the background 😃

[@SJ23982398]

If you count new rts games it is quite sad. Mostly middling sequels and remasters in the past decade.

[@kaluventhebritish]

Right you are, a state of affairs that seems to have infected a of game genres and plenty of movies studios too these days.

[@darkranger116]

The genre has to bring something new and specifically immersive to the table. Every once in a while, a survival game pops up and everyone goes crazy for it, and the game gains a consistent play-base that lasts for years beyond the hype phase. Part of that equation is the fact that survival games are inherently immersive at a foundational level. "The next RTS" has to bring something immersive and new to the table in order to spike the charts. Like if someone comes out with an RTS MMORPG with solid gameplay, people would lose their minds.

[@kaluventhebritish]

I also feel like a new RTS should take some lessons from stuff like Dota2. I don't mean in the way of gameplay, but more in the way that things like live tournament viewing, replays, spectating, stats, trends and other such things are all built into the actual game client itself and easily available.

[@razorback9999able]

@@kaluventhebritish But these features are difficult to create for an average video game developer. How can you make a game record an entire match? How can replays be played without inconsistency with the actual gameplay?

[@kaluventhebritish]

@@razorback9999able I think it's one of those features that's difficult to tac-on to an existing game, but achievable enough to build into a new one. Plenty of games both inside and outside of strategy seem to be able to handle it so although it might be tricky I like to hold people to a high standard and expect better, especially if it's not an indi studio.

[@misham1213]

Why are wargames sort of outside the normal RTS discussion Wargame, WARNO, Steel Division, Broken Arrow Regiments mb

[@kaluventhebritish]

From my own point of view this is mostly down to definitions. I use the term "RTS" as a short hand for "Real-Time Strategy", which I apply to a game where the resource acquisition, base building, tech upgrades and unit construction all happen within the actual battle itself. When talking about other real time tactical games that have these before or between battles, I generally use the term RTT or Real-Time Tactics. I don't claim to be any authority on this. There is no strict dictionary definition, but when the first of these sorts of games (Dune II) was marketed back in 1995 the creator coined the phrase "Real-Time Strategy", so I use his definition on my channel when I'm talking about games with acquisition, construction, research and production in the battle itself. This shouldn't be seen as a slight against RTT games like some of the ones you mentioned, many of these are excellent and deserve a lot of praise. So in short, I'm not ignoring them because of any ill feelings towards them, or because I'm forgetful, but just because I consider them a different sub-genre of strategy.

[@Searibox]

Anybody suggesting RTS is a dead ganre before 2022 would have somewhat understandable point but in 2024 - absolutely not, i find it a bit stange this fella doesnt mention anything about warcraft 3, zero space, godsworn, battle aces , immortals gates of pyre, Terminator: Dark Fate - Defiance, Northgard, Dinolords, Nuke Them All, Dust Front, Conan Unconquered, Agony: Lords of Hell, The Great War: Western Front, Global Conflagration, Dune: Spice Wars, D.O.R.F. Real-Time Strategic Conflict, Crown of Greed, Ablight, Rogue Command, Arcane Wilds, Warpaws, Red Chaos - The Strict Order, Global Conflagration, Dying Breed, Barkhan, TFC: The Fertile Crescent, White Sands, just many many intriguing titles that cameout in the last few years or are on the horizon or in early access or in beta(open and closed). Its a good time to be and RTS fan, oh and I'm missing all the Total annihilation inspired games that are also in development - Zade had a nice video about those a while ago

[@basedsneedclave175]

Every part of me hope sanctuary the sup com forged alliance spiritual successor made by the forged alliance forever guys delivers Same with dorf as a spiritual successor to things like open ra

[@kaluventhebritish]

I am very interested by Sanctuary: Shattered Sun, however I do have a few reservations. The Total-Annihilation style RTS area is hardly an empty void at the moment with projects like Forged Alliance Forever, Beyond All Reason and also the upcoming Industrial Annihilation. What I will be interested to see how Sanctuary departs from these other titles and makes something unique while still retaining the elements that made SupCom and it's predecessors great. It will need to be well polished to stand out, with lots of functionality, creativity and some new interesting mechanics we've not seen before. They have lofty goals but only a small team which makes it even harder, but I wish them all the luck in the world and will be very excited if they can deliver us a great game.

[@DCPTF2]

I think there are a lot of examples of how entire genera's of games are held up by one or a few hyper massive games MOBA is clearly League and DOTA FPS is likely just CoD keeping it going Competitive FPS is either Valorant or CSGO OWSC is likely Minecraft (even if people want to argue it's something else it always comes back to Minecraft) OWSB is whatever the new GTA is 4X i want to give to the Endless series over Stellaris but that might not even be a debate to some people Asymmetric has to go to Dead by Daylight, the Graveyard that is my steam Library weeps the 1v4 games that tried to claw their cut of DBDs pie and live Extraction shooter: is Escape from Tarkov still around or did it die, either EFT or Deep Rock Galatic (special mention to Helldivers 2 though) Subscription MMO is WoW i don't think another exists F2PMMO Old School Runescape Don't care enough about mobage to learn so some slot machine simulator with anime characters RPG likely still Skyrim or Fallout

[@Utrilus]

I feel like you have too large pauses in your speech and editing.

[@kaluventhebritish]

Between videos I tend to fluctuate between speaking too fast and having too many pauses. I'm still learning the whole writing, narrating, editing thing and hopefully I'll improve as I get more practice.

[@Utrilus]

@@kaluventhebritish You're making very interesting videos. I'll be definitely watching more of them.

[@kaluventhebritish]

@@Utrilus Thanks very much!

[@skitidet4302]

I disagree with your assessment of SC, I don't think it was in decline before SC2 came out. The the period before SC2 came out is widely regarded as the golden years of BW. Say 2008-2011. It was SC2 that caused problems. Yes, the hype when it came out was massive so there's no denying that there was a spike in popularity right around where it came out, but many people quickly got bored of it and it did not have the same staying power or great spectator enjoyment as BW did and that scene was massively damaged by SC2 coming out and all the sponsors forcing orgs to go to SC2 instead of BW. Look at it today. The BW scene is yet again on top and tend to get several times more engagement as can be seen on the afreecatv channel.

[@kaluventhebritish]

You're probably right about the 2008-2011 period, especially from a competitive point of view. I think general audiences were probably over it at that point but I can only guess as getting any hard data from Blizzard is almost impossible. I did enjoy SC2, but the problem I found is that every time I took a break and came back to it so much had changed that I hardly understood the game anymore. I think Broodwar really benefitted from consistency, and how balancing was done with maps instead of so many tweaks to units between patches and expansions. Makes it a hell of a lot easier on the spectators too.

[@nicolobarbato6471]

AoE 2 is still very alive

[@srdjanberner3479]

Is star wars "dead"? You imply that, that isn't the case. There is the problem when painting with big strokes when referring to something as dead. Reactionary culture that dominates social media caused a lot of things to be misslabeled. But the overall decline in popularity/interest isn't the cause of death much like how the blood loss didn't necessarily kill someone who got shot. Fact of the matter is RT in RTS is gone now. TBS is all the rage and RPG (without RP or consequential choices just mere illusions). These are all postmortem aka consequences. I think that people are tired of it. Otherwise we best ask the more important question why was SC or WC popular unlike their modern counterparts?

[@kaluventhebritish]

I wasn't trying to imply that Star Wars was dead, sorry if I gave that impression! I just think it's in a disorganised state with a lack of direction and a lot of the media released is very divisive - but still hugely popular!

[@srdjanberner3479]

@@kaluventhebritish I'm not a fanatical fan of the franchise by any means, I just want to ask if that divisive nature of the modern shows impacts the health of a genre/franchise in your opinion? You mention in your video that the popularity whithin the community and the interest of the publishers is a reliable criteria, but could the discourse be a cause of death for the genre causing burnout or was RTS never actually popular but rather driven by large games?

[@kaluventhebritish]

@@srdjanberner3479I think unless some consensus is arrived on exactly what Star Wars is then it will probably decline in popularity although it will be artificially supported by the force of marketing for a long time. The main thing the franchise suffers from is that it doesn't really know itself. If you got into the original trilogy, Star War is about adventure, growth and good vs evil in a huge galaxy of opportunity and danger. If you got into it from the prequal trilogy, it's about lightsabres and prophecy. If you got into it after that, it's about trying to reflect modern societal and cultural issues though the lens of science-fiction. and lightsabres. It's why most of the films and series end up being a bit of a mess, too many themes all fighting for prominence. I think with RTS it's just more of the case that it was never that popular really, apart from a few blips like the initial period and Starcraft.

[@marley7868]

I will be frank I hold an animisity towards starcraft for poisoning the genre with bad ideas and practices that only worked once but I do confess the game is technicallly well made I just hate it though kerrigan is the biggest authors pet in RTS oh and I'm calling it storm gate is gonna crash and burn for following in starcrafts footsteps same as so many others

[@kaluventhebritish]

I know how you feel. But in the end I came to the conclusion that the Starcraft series isn't really a problem, they are great games, do a lot right and have brought heaps of enjoyment to a lot of people. The problem is often others: developers, fans, creators, who took the wrong lessons from Starcraft and tried to apply them to other projects without ever really asking if they were actually suitable. It's a bit like how C&C4 or DoW3 tried to jam MOBA like elements into RTS just because MOBAs were popular. You might be right about Stormgate, these days I don't get too excited too early and just wait and see what happens.

[@marley7868]

@@kaluventhebritish yeah in credit what little is owed to tib twilight it was supposed to be a little spin off game made to market to asia that last second was made mainline so that mistake is understandable on the devs it's the suits who failed but yeah DOW 3 just really really wanted to be starcraft that said I feel even the people who made starcraft don't know why it worked and took the wrong lessons going forward but I guess we'll see on that one still thanks for responding you have a great day Kane lives

[@inversepie6512]

The writing in this video is completely braindead. "If a game is conpetitive, then people will compete in it" wow really you dont say

[@cariyaputta]

I don't trust Stormgate anymore. As a Starcrat 2 sweaty and heavily into the esport scene, Stormgate looks a like watered down League engine, not to mention the absurd price tag for pre-purchasing the early access despite constantly boasting about funding. Maybe they need more money to pay streamers and celebrities to shill for the game. Zoom out a bit, it's been many years, many titles have claimed that they will be the next Starcraft 2, but I can't keep up my optimistic anymore.

[@kaluventhebritish]

I share your concerns, but find myself living in a space that is neither optimistic nor devoid of optimism. I try not to focus on any one aspect too much, recreating Starcraft's magic is a daunting task but they have some talented people involved so I am still interested to see what happens. I won't pre-order, but I will wait to see what the result is like when it's finished and judge it on its own merits. Same with ZeroSpace.

[@chloesmith4065]

Supreme Commander II was NOT well regarded. Do some more research next time.

[@kaluventhebritish]

The research was what actually lead me to say that. I was going to call it "pretty bad" as I know many SupCom fans thought it was a big downgrade - but when I looked into it I found that all of the industry reviews were generally between 7-8 out of 10 and it had a very positive rating on steam, so I felt "pretty well regarded" would be more accurate. But your point is taken. I am actually discussing the Supreme Commander games in an upcoming video - I'll make sure I better explain the reception of the sequel.

[@pyrotek45]

you should look up a game called beyond all reason.

[@kaluventhebritish]

I love Beyond All Reason!