Rule the Waves 3 Guide to Submarines & Mines

[@akd8525]

Minesweeping value is variable with tonnage. Just checked in a current 1909 game and, for example, with all minesweeping KEs in a home area mothballed, the area MS value is 0. Set one 600-ton (poor crew) MS KE to active and the area value goes to 11. Set it back to MB and then set an 800-ton (poor crew) MS KE to active and the area value is now 14. Also, my foreign station areas have MS values that can only be explained by a greater value than 16 per MS ship, e.g. one overseas station has 6 ships with MS gear and an MS value of 124 (average 20.7 per ship, but they vary in size from 600t to 1700t).

[@RvTWargames]

That's very helpful. I'll pin it to the top of the comments.

[@sawspitfire422]

Hi I did a brief experiment on this by building minesweepers of different tonnage. This was on the 1900 start and all results are for home waters. The results are as follows: 600t = 16 800t = 21 1000t = 26 1200t = 26 1400t = 26 Based on this and the cost of building, 1000t minesweepers seems to be optimal. At 17kts w/ 2x 4in guns and no other equipment a 600t ship cost 1267 and a 1000t ship cost 1711. Maintenance was similar for all the small ships, just 1 or 2 a month on active duty

[@RvTWargames]

Thanks for working through the details of this. Very interesting.

[@Sovjetski-]

GReat thx

[@Tuning3434]

@@RvTWargames There was a discussion on it on the RTW2 forum (haven't delved in RTW3 yet) effectiveness caps of at 1000t, as discussed. 900 tons / 1000 ton trawlers give almost the same bang / $. But generally 800 ~ 1000 ton trawler cost similarly per MS point 900 t corvette's give opportunity to raise ASW with max ASW equipment, although minesweaper gear halves the value (and they only ASW in TP). It add flexibility in future proofing, for sofar that really is a thing for KE's There is however a very good reason (and I will see you do this in this series) to invest in small Inefficiënt small MS trawlers: If you put them on AF, many of these tini tiny trawlers can take up a considerable percentage of your warfleet. As such, there is a good chance they eat up a torpedo (and die) that might have taken one of the bigger units out in repair. Sure, you might loose multiple 200t, +- 560 costing KEs, but just having on of them even saving a capital unit spending multitudes of that amount in repair, OR WORSE, makes them a good investment. Also, a 200 ton unit only take 3 months to refit repossed trawlers. I think you are also poopoohing the utility of small AMCs. They add on the minelaying ability AND because AMCs (in RTW2) can only be intercepted at a rate of one a month (which you might even escape, sometimes....), going small makes it easy to build up a large raider force in war time.

[@TheMouseMasterYT]

Fun fact about losing raiders: If, whenever you get a "raider intercepted" message, you choose to Autoresolve, 90% of the time the favorable outcomes goes to whether the raider or the interceptor is faster. What a "favorable result" is, is based 90% on the sizes of the 2 ships. If an enemy CA intercepts your raider CL, a "favorable result" for your CL is running away safely. If an enemy CL intercepts your raider CA, a "favorable result" for your CA is sinking the interceptor. This means that, although expensive, a really fast CA (you can gain speed by saving weight... say, having a main armament of 2 single 7" turrets) is not only going to rarely be intercepted successfully, but many times it will end up sinking the interceptor instead.

[@RvTWargames]

Fun fact indeed. I must try this super fast (and expensive) CA raider and see if it cost effective in sinking TP cruisers.

[@LoremasterYnTaris]

Quite late, but a fast CA has been my go-to raider since RTW2, and they are supremely effective, especially once you get into the 30s. Powerful enough to sink anything that can catch them, fast enough to escape anything that can sink them, and essentially able to stalk the enemy's shipping lanes with impunity. Plus in a pinch they can be pressed into the main battlefleet, though that tends to be pretty risky.

[@RvTWargames]

Never too late! I must try the fast CA raider, if I can get the funds together.

[@FoxxofNod]

Two RtW3 videos in one day! Our cup runneth over!

[@RvTWargames]

FINALLY, I had a bit of time on my hands and the prep I'd done on this guide was a couple of weeks ago and was already to be recorded, with a simple edit and upload. Don't get used to it, I'm off to deep dive on a bit of strategy vs the USSR 😊

[@zookzook2321]

This was a treat! I’m a big fan of these general analysis videos and this one did not disappoint. This will be a useful resource once I finally get this game. I’m excited to hear your thoughts on missile subs in the future once the series reaches that point.

[@RvTWargames]

Patience Zook! We have years to go before missiles are a thing. Werner is still only experimenting with miniature rockets right now!

[@battlesnake655]

I've been sitting on the fence about buying RtW3. Before I buy a big complex game like this one, I like to watch some KZbin tutorials to get an idea of what to expect and I like to steep myself in the language and ideas in the game. I've been watching your videos all night and they have been an absolute joy. I did decide to buy the game and I just wanted you to know that I have already taken an immense amount of info and pleasure from your videos.

[@RvTWargames]

Well thank you so much, @battlesnake655! Yours is a wise policy. I've just been watching a three and half hour refresher of the basics of Hearts of Iron IV myself. Somehow I don't think of RtW as "big", but it certainly is as complex as you wish. Happy admiraling.

[@battlesnake655]

@@RvTWargames I've tried to get into Hearts of Iron 4 a few times now. When I try to play as Germany, my invasion of Poland goes about as well as Putin's invasion of Ukraine. Anyhow, I'm really enjoying RtW3, and I'm still using your videos. Thank you for doing what you do.

[@gracegood3661]

I’m the same... been absolutely loving this guy.

[@NefariousKoel]

I recall having some success with AMCs, notably Fast AMCs around oversea colony zones, in early 20th century RtW2 campaigns. They were especially useful when a war sprung up rather quickly, of course, due to the relatively short inception time. At the same time, it seemed like submarines weren't very effective unless I had quite a number of them. Cruiser raiders were basically doing double duty, possibly targeting both merchants and enemy AMCs, IIRC, so that may be an additional argument for the odd CL.

[@RvTWargames]

I believe you are right about the the utility of AMCs in the 1900s and 1910s. What the game doesn't model well is the huge dispersion of CLs needed to tackle only a few raiders.

[@SabreAce33]

Thanks for taking the time to explore and explain these mechanics! Super helpful.

[@RvTWargames]

You're very welcome, Sabre. It's helped me too, get it clear in my head!

[@mrmunchkin2181]

This day cannot get any better.

[@RvTWargames]

Don't set the bar too high! Double RtW3 videos in one day is like finding a four leaf clover ☘️

[@kevoman2020]

Two in one day!!! What a great day.

[@RvTWargames]

As I said to @foxxofNod, I'd been writing this for a couple of weeks, so it was largely finished, and I had some bonus time so I thought I'd push it out not before I go deep into my strategic options against the USSR.

[@richardprivate5568]

did you hear that "whoooooosh" sound ? That was your perfect and logically explained analysis going right over my head, but I was still rivetted to every minute of it. Great to have 2 uploads within hours of eachother. Keep 'em coming :)

[@RvTWargames]

It was a bit more formula based than usual, but then there are more complex ones underpinning the games!

[@eddieballgame]

Excellent, informative, detailed video...thank you.

[@RvTWargames]

You're welcome EddieBallGame. Hope you can use it in your games.

[@Nemo-vg7sr]

A lot of it is transparent! I thought you were being ironic 😀 Such a complicated issue as trade warfare, subs and mines required one of your great in-depth analysis. Your guides to RTW, 2 years ago already, were eye-opening to me and helped me to enjoy even more this game.

[@RvTWargames]

Thank you, Nemo. I'll probably revisit some of them once I appreciate some of the developments they have put into the late game.

[@ironchancellorottovonbisma8573]

Love and appreciate your videos! Do you have a plane guide on your channel I'm missing? If not it would be extremely helpful to know how to properly handle CAP, Strikes, and Searches!

[@RvTWargames]

Well, coming from you, Sir, that is a great honour 😉 I have covered it in various RtW2 tactics guides, but I'll be doing a new one when I get a carrier and start doing some new air operations in my current Germany 1935 playthrough series. Probably in a month or so.

[@jaywerner8415]

A small note, Their are also Missile Submarines now, once missiles start being a thing you will eventually research submarines with anti ship missiles (they have 2 of them from what i saw on the missile control panel). Not sure if they are any better then Normal Submarines but they do have the addition of missile capability in battle.

[@RvTWargames]

Good point. I haven't got up to them in my playthrough yet. I'll be interested to see how they are handled.

[@jaywerner8415]

@@RvTWargames Admittedly iv only played though 1 full game so far (1890 to 1970) If I had to guess, they are Medium Subs but with Missile Capability. At least from the performance that i witnessed. But again, i don't have enough XP to really say for sure. Good Luck.

[@b1laxson]

Sent you some sample small CLR which being 2,700 tons are HALF the size of your 5,400 tonner. I do see you presented a 2,700 ton AV raider of 5 planes. Also sent sample AV raider on mere 1,700 tons. On the principle of a predator you need to overmatch the prey in speed and firepower. That is transports not warships. Each ship is predator. So if you build 6 of 5,400 tons I could build 12 of 2,700. Now the 5,400 can fight off another CL maybe but not a larger force or ship. The 2,700 can only hope to run away from a CL. There is only a narrow range of encounters where the 5,400 ton can cope with an intercept any better than the 2,700 ton. Call it 25% more likely to survive "any" intercept but I have sent in 2 smaller ones so 100% the other one isn't intercepted. The amount of TR kills is dominated by the number of raider ships. Speed of raider does affect but its a small thing. Again compare to +25% or so for a faster raider vs +100% for having built two small raiders for the price of one.

[@RvTWargames]

I'll have a think about this when at look at my raider plans at the start of this war with the USSR.

[@FoxxofNod]

One thing that I think you got wrong is that surface raiders don't attack warships. It can actually be an effective tactic if your ships are qualitatively better than your enemies, to set your ships to raid in the hope that they get intercepted so you can take on the enemies worse ship one on one. It can be especially effective if done with something like a BC as it is likely to over match anything the enemy sends against it. Just be sure to remember that raiders that run out of fuel can wind up forced to scuttle. The same can be done in reverse, If you see the enemy deploying surface raiders you can set some old BBs or some CAs to trade protection to guarantee that an intercept will be decisive.

[@RvTWargames]

In my most lawyery form I'd suggest being intercepted isn't attacking 😉 But I take your point. Send a Bismarck raiding into the Atlantic and see who would dare intercept it!

[@pterrok5495]

Did your AV 'cost' include the cost of running the planes? And then, if your float planes get to carry bombs, does that make them way more effective? The big takeaway for me, which makes sense and made me smack my head, was once I have blockaded them, I need to stop Raiders! ;-p Mentioning the Naval Air Patrol, I think I may need to base 4 or 6 on land bases that I put in use to allow them to help out in their undefined manner!

[@RvTWargames]

I've noticed in my game that they are contributing about half as much ASW as the ships are. Which will only increase as I build bigger airbases.

[@mourka01]

Oh this was very helpful thank you

[@RvTWargames]

You're very welcome, Mourka.

[@Sovjetski-]

Thx good Guide! thumbs up and an obvious subscription to your channel!

[@RvTWargames]

Thank you very much. Actually a lot has happened to submarines and I've had some success managing a better submarine campaign, so I'm probably going to have to redo this video and upload an updated version soonish.

[@Sovjetski-]

@@RvTWargames Great, I'm looking forward to it.

[@ximiraxelo7375]

Recently i was playing with Germany and i set the fleet size to small, and at the start of the game, at 1938, i got in a war with the soviets, and we murdered the Soviet navy, but then they started to spam submarines and absolutely destroyed my merchant navy... Fast forward to 1942, a revolution broke of and we "lost" the war, them i resign from the game and started again

[@RvTWargames]

Small = Hardest = Least margin of error. I would advise picking at least a Large fleet to give yourself the elbow room to take loses and experiment more.

[@TheMouseMasterYT]

Trade warfare follows the following paradigm: Either, it's mine, or it's Mined.

[@RvTWargames]

Oh very clever, Mr Bond.

[@b1laxson]

Concept not discussed is how each nation has a different vulnerability to blockade and TR sinkings. In my experiences most vulnerable are Great Britain and surprisingly the United States. Most resilient are Russia and Germany.

[@RvTWargames]

It's not in the manual, but even a hint. So difficult to analyse beyond examples. I might track it and see if I can infer something from the VPs from blockade (as a measure of its monthly effectiveness) versus the time taken for reported unrest and eventual capitulation.

[@notsaying7838]

I've been wondering, which ships can and can't mount mines. Is there a difference between RTW 2 and RTW 3?

[@RvTWargames]

There are only a couple of mine technologies under Fleet Tactics (active mine warfare and mine rails on DDs and CLs) which are both quite early. KEs and AMCs can both carry mines too. Not sure this part of the game has changed since RtW2.

[@notsaying7838]

@@RvTWargames Hmm. I've tried equipping KEs with mines in RtW 2 but I can't seem to make it work for some reason.

[@Tuning3434]

@@notsaying7838 You cannot equip KE's with mines in RtW2, only minesweeper gear.

[@notsaying7838]

@@Tuning3434 Tbh that's a shame. Has that changed in RtW 3?

[@b1laxson]

My current game has ~40 Subs with their crappy 1 TR per 10 Subs and ~40 CLR (2,700 ton) getting 1 TR per CLR. Im also looking now at doing AVR 1,700 tons with 3 planes. An earlier game was doing ~80 subs and had that 1 per 10 ratio and was waste.

[@RvTWargames]

Yes, I'll need to take note of the turn trade warfare information more carefully.