Run Tomb of Horrors so your players like it

[@justifan]

Hi there, I have been running the ToH for decades now, even running it back when it first appeared just before 1980! A few little experiences: 1) I barred any teleport or plane shifting, due to the tomb’s “magical defenses”. Passwall spell just opened a passageway where a demon, according to the write-up, was waiting for them. The tomb does not like cheating. 2) It rewards good role-playing. A 29th level cleric of Thor, who bragged of killing over a half-dozen gods, got stuck and starved to death a third of the way through in the 100 foot deep pit. Meanwhile, an 8th level Cartographer halfling made it the whole way, with a map of the tomb! (Which Acererak got back, but wanted to hire the halfling via demon representatives…) 3) A bard, with a very high charisma went in okay, but exited with the left side of his body melted, his charisma went down by 10 points… but said it was so cool! He then role-played with the injuries in later games, with bragging rights! You really have to tell them this is a very special adventure, that not only challenges the characters, but THEM the players as well!

[@ZipperonDisney]

Thanks for the detailed suggestions and stories 😁

[@howardadamkramer]

I DM'd this about four years ago when taking a break from our regular campaign. We used the provided characters. I had each of five players pick one, and every time one died they got to replace it with another. They went out of their way to trip every possible trap just for the fun of it. They had a blast basically suiciding their characters. They literally stepped on and touched everything just to see what would happen. Interestingly, this method not only got them through the dungeon faster, it also got them all the way to the throne room. I'm pretty sure the last one died when the orange gem exploded.

[@ZipperonDisney]

lol that's certainly one way of doing it

[@grahamward7]

Definitely the most constructive take I’ve seen on Tomb of Horrors.

[@ZipperonDisney]

Thank you sir!

[@andrewlustfield6079]

@@ZipperonDisney Seth Sorkowski did a great breakdown of S-1 Tomb of Horrors, too. It was a tournament module, and part of how they used to run tournaments is by how long the party survived, if they survive, and how long it took them to complete the module. It was a scored event, so it wasn't something you meant for beloved characters. Because even if you do everything right, there's a good chance some characters will die. And yes, you are absolutely right, it was the players vs the module. Old school modules were written that way--death was meant to be lurking around every corner. Even the modules that started the Hickman revolution, the Desert of Desolation series I-3-5, that were much more heavy on the narrative and later I-6 Ravenloft, were deadly if the players weren't on their toes.

[@mattpace1026]

More like dishonest.

[@asafoetidajones8181]

Just use it as a funnel/meatgrinder, yeah. Five ish quickly generated characters for each player, hirelings that they take as PCs when the PC dies.

[@recon441]

Interesting, you're the only person I've seen so far on KZbin who recommends playing the module pretty straight, everyone else comes up with wacky and wild fixes. I might run this for my group someday though 😂 they're a bunch of masochists anyway

[@Lobsterwithinternet]

Seth Skorkowsky recommends running it pretty straight as well.

[@TheQuietKid13]

Gygax laughs every time someone plays this.

[@foutourtoufour5508]

He is the very lich that built this dungeon

[@rodrigom7686]

He don't. He dead. 👍

[@TopazRage]

Wonderful way to do this! My players back in '79 to '83 never leveled high enough, but I've been wanting to DM this ever since. You mentioned, but I think it cannot be over-emphasised, that pre=gen characters are the ONLY way to do this and maintain the light-hearted tone: your characters may die, but they're not your REAL characters, so no biggie. Also, I wish more modules had keyed illustrations, even if not as awesome as the work of the great Dave Trampier; so-o compelling to simply say, "this is what you see."

[@Ninjat126]

As a DM, I can write descriptions of rooms and statues all day. If I'm going to buy and run a module, I want something visual to showcase!

[@craiggordon2502]

This was a competition dungeon at events to help with context.

[@nesmandan1037]

When someone gets teleported, tell them you will need to get back to them, and if possible, have that person leave the room/chat/game for a bit while you work with the rest of the party so the character doesn’t know what’s going on. Make it time for a bathroom break, food break, whatever. When the other characters have done their actions or need a few min to think, pull up a different copy of the map, turned 90*, and place the character in there. Blame it on disorientation later. This takes away the ability to know how large the dungeon is as well as a natural tendency to choose a direction toward the group. Then have that portion of the party leave so you can work 1 on 1 with the other person, to use bathroom etc. This really allows the characters to get a much deeper experience, adds immersion, a fear of separation and being alone. Don’t deny the players this experience. Also, this allows the players to communicate better as they describe what happened later to the group when/if they meet up. Once the adventure is discussed, you can goto the main map and unfog/draw in that area. If the character enters one and dies, don’t tell the rest of the party, they won’t know, and will most likely meta game to avoid doing it. I can’t understate the emotional impact this separation will effect the game and the players experiences. Finally, when it comes to the Devil Head, this is a mistake I hear a lot is the person entering disappears or crawls all the way in. As soon as anything TOUCHES the sphere, that portion of the item is eliminated. So you stick your arm in, you won’t feel anything, but will bleed out. If you stick your hands in to start crawling, you fall headfirst in and your body falls in half - think momentum plus whatever gravity just pulls to the floor, if you stick your head in, the body just falls to the floor as your brain is removed and the nerves no longer control the muscles. It would have been much more dangerous if it was just black inside the mouth and you had to crawl in 20 feet first and ran into a smooth descending slope which the sphere at the bottom.

[@capple2383]

You are one of the best D&D KZbinrs in my opinion

[@ZipperonDisney]

Thank you 😊

[@EricMeyer9]

Really loved the breakdown. Everytime I watch one of your videos it makes me want to do two things. Play at your table and run more games for my friends and family! Good stuff.

[@Lobsterwithinternet]

Just found you through your Ranger and exploration videos. You're right up there with Seth Skorkowsky and this video on the Tomb of Horrors cements it. Subbed.

[@ZipperonDisney]

Welcome aboard! 🙏

[@heyimbilliejean]

I type this comment just after the end of the intro, so sorry if you end up saying this. This adventure's purpose is to challenge players to think creatively and problem solve and to punish players who rely on their character sheet to solve challenges for them. I'm not sure about the 5e rerelease, but previous versions even explicitly say this at the beginning (and if the 5e version doesn't, they've done 5e DM's a disservice). It even goes on to say that if you have a group that doesn't engage with the game that way, you shouldn't run them through this adventure. And it's not to disparage players who play the game that way; This adventure is just not made for those kinds of players. Spoilers for the adventure (the video may already spoil stuff) . . . . . . . In Return to the Tomb of Horrors, there is a foreword by Gygax where he talks about running the original adventure. At one point he talks about a DM that let the players use the "bad" effect of the crown and scepter to kill the demilich skull by placing it on the skull and touching the "wrong" end. He loved it. It goes to further illustrate how he wanted to reward players for thinking creatively. Edit: Yeah, you eluded to my main point a few times. It's really important for DMs to assess if this is the type of adventure for their group. I don't know that it's the best idea to handwave the doors in room 8, as it serves to teach the players that the correct solution is not always the most obvious or most intuitive, in a consequence free environment. I could, however, see a good argument for handwaving after the first few. That howl attack must have been added in the 4e or 5e version of the adventure, because it was not in any version 3e or prior. That sounds brutal. I'd definitely remove that and give it back it's old soul suck ability, assuming it doesn't have that anymore.

[@Caesarr7]

I haven't finished yet, but this is fantastic advice so far. I absolutely agree that ToH is a great challenge dungeon if expectations are set correctly. Just a word of warning for anyone watching this video though: SPOILERS! You won't be able to be a play this dungeon if you learn what's in it beforehand (unless you're DMing obviously).

[@Caesarr7]

Further thoughts: - Level 13 with no magic items is interesting. Personally I think magic weapons for martial characters is the absolute minimum required. I like using level 10 characters, as it means that 6th level magic is off the table. Instead, I let the players pick 1 rare and 2 uncommon items each. Using pregen characters is another way to go though, I can see how that sets expectations nicely. - Not using Passive Perception for the pit traps is a good idea. I didn't use rolls at all, instead requiring the players to narrate poking the floor. It's not a classic dungeon if there aren't some 10-foot poles involved! - 5e's interpretation of poison and damage has an interesting effect on a lot of the traps. While some traps are instant-death, all other traps have almost trivial effects. I'm tempted to increase the damage amounts, but like you said, running it exactly as written is pretty important for making the victory meaningful.

[@joycekoch5746]

Love Tomb of Horrors - Too many games are just endless rounds of combat and fireballs.

[@EpeenKing]

Amazing. I want to Dm this once us as new players get the mechanics really down.

[@ZipperonDisney]

Do it! its a ton of fun for veterans...but I think newbies might do better because they don't have any expectations...

[@randynunez2666]

I'm running this for my group on October 1st, to kick off the Spooky Month. Thanks for your good take on this Dungeon!

[@asafoetidajones8181]

The other confusing thing about the dungeon is that it's super linear, but not obviously so. It's important to understand the sequence of travel through the rooms. Iirc the TftYP version has an error somewhere near the end where the wording on a door makes the dungeon impossible RAW because the one way door is facing the wrong way or something.

[@ZipperonDisney]

huh, never noticed that!

[@randynunez2666]

I ran ToH this past weekend. Myself (GM) and players got stuck after four hours, lol. We let it rest, and decided to pick it up later.

[@AlbertBtesh]

This needs more views. Your forewarning needs to be made more aware. Many reviewers run this with the 5e mentality & believe players must always win. And though thr 5e version is a lot better towards the players, without disclosing this to the players where they expect modules to hold their hand they will be more shocked than anything which will lead to the "bad time" people complain about but if this is the awareness going in then there is nothing to worry about. Also regarding passive perception, i currently have 2 players with mid 20s pp. Instead of outright telling them, I just say something along the line, "your keen senses notice that the area looks different than the rest of the area". This invites them to make an active perception/investigation roll. If they match it I tell them the secret or trap if it's too low I may just say a cause that is irrelevant (some debris fell, kicking up dirt or whatnot) they're also good enough not to metagame

[@alignmentunknown3156]

Love dungeon crawling. Good video!

[@JakAttack]

It's a long shot but would you still happen to have those premade characters you ran for this game and if so could you share them? Im thinking about taking a note from our book and running this for my crew for halloween!

[@ZipperonDisney]

sorry, I looked but didn't find them :(

[@p-leif630]

the dugneon thests the players not the pcs

[@darnok6407]

Every dungeon back then did that

[@sterlingmbarker]

How long did it take you to run in a single session?

[@ZipperonDisney]

around 3 hours

[@futurelink1359]

Good luck

[@notreallydavid]

'vicarious'? Were you thinking of 'vicious' or 'capricious' here? All best

[@ZipperonDisney]

yeah, I think so. everyone brain farts once in a while

[@notreallydavid]

@@ZipperonDisney Except me. I never slip up in any way. Or something. Best regards from Over Here

[@PatriceBoivin]

In 5e players can "eat damage" but in 1e...

[@steveclarkreborn]

You picked your players characters? To bad for them that they can't say they've played this without DM help. I had my players make level 20 characters, and they all still fell, but they did it by their own character and not one I made. It's sad you thought you had to go this route, for your players I mean.

[@ZipperonDisney]

More like I wanted them to be able to just show up and play without having to work to make a high level character first

[@asafoetidajones8181]

Pregens is completely normal in D&D. Dozens of modules have included them.