Rust is being destroyed from the inside

While Rust has earned a dedicated following, it's not without its fair share of controversies and problems. In this video I'll talk about the negative response and backlash from the Rust community in the wake of the most recent controversy, its connections to past incidents, and give my personal thoughts.
FREE Rust Cheat Sheet: letsgetrusty.com/cheatsheet
Chapters
0:00 Overview
0:46 Rust primary organizations
1:49 The latest incident
4:23 Rust leadership responses
6:20 The backlash
7:15 My personal opinion

[@letsgetrusty]

📝Get your *FREE Rust cheat sheet* : letsgetrusty.com/cheatsheet

[@visivoo3845]

I gave it my gmail but still haven't gotton it why not just post the sheet to your link instead of having to email it to us

[@shavais33]

@@visivoo3845 He's trying to make a living. Lists of validated email addresses of people with some known specific interest are valuable in a variety of ways. His emailer seems to have a bit of a delay associated with it. Slightly ironic for a Rust advocate!

[@jayshartzer844]

Man, Rust Core and Rust Foundation really gave the community a black eye Let's Get Rusty:

[@saadahmed688]

I see what you did there

[@jayshartzer844]

@@saadahmed688 not if the Rust Foundation has anything to say about it 🤜👀

[@hecker230]

I too see w hat ya did there

[@whannabi]

C programmers are eating their popcorns looking at the fire right now

[@qwertgfhxc]

plot twist, there's a c-mole in the rust foundation leadership.

[@winb_]

meanwhile me learning Rust for the past 2 weeks

[@mightyiam]

Keep it up. It'll keep getter better. Everyone makes mistakes. Every community is flawed.

[@Pauked]

Same, been learning it for a few weeks.

[@raidensama1511]

This will all blow over. Even Python had its drama.

[@Anon.G]

Make no mistake, the language itself is great

[@cxngo8124]

Same

[@TheZdannar]

As a person that is advocating and trying to hire rust engineers at the company I work for, these actions are infuriating. They need to remove the folks that are causing the issues and bring back previous members who were run off. It is interesting how poor mgmt can ruin amazing engineering work.

[@kandiesky]

I don't think they will, but I wish they do

[@vectoralphaAI]

That won't happen.

[@iamvalenci4]

what are some of the requirements to just get a interview for rust junior position?, degree? , some projects?,

[@T1Oracle]

Poor management ruining amazing engineering work, is the most consistently repeating theme in history since the advent of engineering.

[@ouo5634]

@@iamvalenci4 git gud... ez

[@apidas]

this is embarrassing. to think such organization operate with such pettiness. this is why we can't have nice things.

[@stysner4580]

Keeping something Open Source without greed/opinionated leadership is a struggle. Only few do it well, like Khronos and Blender.

[@T1Oracle]

Once investors throw their money at something they didn't invent, they start walking around like they own it. This is the cycle of greed.

[@monadic_monastic69]

@@T1Oracle Ok that can and definitely does happen, but is it true of what happened in the Rust leadership, or is this strictly due to Rust leadership acting like fucking idiots?

[@svelterust]

I agree, it is embarrassing

[@conelord1984]

@@stysner4580 Opinionated leadership is not really a problem. Greed isn't either if it is smart. The problem is big corporations wanting to control everything and stupid people doing their biding because they think these companies are their "allies".

[@MadTofan]

I spent the last 2 years just sharpening my Rust skill so that I can be a Senior Dev when the industry finally adopts this beautiful language. It is truly saddening to see the current state of the management team. I do hope that they will bounce back and come back stronger

[@vectoralphaAI]

If not. You just wasted your time.

[@kebbil]

@@vectoralphaAI No I think rust makes you think differently, eitherway its good to check out the language

[@WolfrostWasTaken]

@@vectoralphaAI Impossible: Rust concepts are easily applicable to other languages (even on C/C++, because the borrow checker is literally just forced RAII). Even in garbage-collected language (paying the performance cost that is) you can apply Rust concepts of monads. Very good language to learn even if you don't plan to work with it at your daily job.

[@snk-js]

@@WolfrostWasTaken I disagree, the waste of time by putting confidence and love into a lang will not be the same as always remembering it just because turned to become a relic

[@WolfrostWasTaken]

@@snk-js I don't kinda get your point, could you try to explain it again?

[@Pjiwm]

Watch out using unsafe rust, Ferris took one of Bogdans eyes.

[@electrolyteorb]

I was wondering what is that?

[@ChrisD__]

​@@electrolyteorb an eye patch. A modern, temporary one.

[@electrolyteorb]

@@ChrisD__ thanks for enlightening me...

[@thepisewigeon]

Very unsettling for me who has been learning and loving Rust. I hope your eye will be fine, get well soon.

[@kevinmcfarlane2752]

Ditto

[@user-qr4jf4tv2x]

what happened i just found out about the channel

[@zahawolfe]

It feels like there are a couple of key people who are the issue somewhere near the top of the rust leadership who need to go. Unfortunately, the people who are the problem usually force others to leave through their toxicity rather than leaving themselves. I hope whoever or whatever is responsible for these issues is gotten rid of

[@farzadmf]

Hope everything is OK with you personally and your eye

[@lqlaliut897]

I hope he gets well soon.

[@nicholasmaniccia1005]

Yeah, that was quite the reveal! I hope he is okay too!

[@fritteli]

Honestly, after I saw that covered eye, I couldn't pay attention to what you were saying! Hope you get well soon! 😮

[@farzadmf]

Exactly! I was like "WTH??? what happened?"

[@barakode414]

I thought it was a repercussion on the current state of rustlang.

[@iangrant4756]

I give the Rust leadership about 6 months before they step on the next proverbial rake. It’s inevitable because the arrogance that led to the two previous scandals (this year!) doesn’t go away without concerted efforts. And I just don’t see them making that effort.

[@linkernick5379]

Dear Bogdan, get well soon, I hope the eye injury is not too dangerous and you'll recover quickly. 🙏

[@letsgetrusty]

Thank you, it should be healed soon!

[@ramseybeing]

Yes dude, get well soon 👍

[@etherweb6796]

This is a classic problem of politics: Problem 1: A Foundation that isn't made up of the core dev team. Problem 2: A "code of conduct" moderator team there to police the devs who are making everything work. Once you add layers such as these you've created an organization of babysitters that don't contribute to the rust language, but feel like they are entitled to tell the core dev team how to do things. Recipe for a failed project.

[@JodyBruchon]

SJWs. It's all about politics and rules lawyering and ideological conformity. Nothing is apolitical, everything must support Marxism or must be ejected.

[@eldrago19]

I think this comment is typical of how far too many Devs think. It takes designers, lawyers, ethicists, and evangelists to make a software project. And yet Devs see this all as bloat.

[@JodyBruchon]

@@eldrago19 No, it doesn't. Those people don't make a damn thing. They are support personnel at most, and that's only the lawyers and designers. The rest are trash that can go straight into the can.

[@etherweb6796]

@@eldrago19 I'm pretty sure we think this way because it happens time and again. Can a software project use lawyers, designers, ethicists, and evangelists - maybe - but when these people get more say than the devs actually writing code then the project isn't sustainable - because in the end it is a software project, and the software is built by developers.

[@longiusaescius2537]

Exactly

[@stacklysm]

Rust Foundation really said "Fine, I'll do it myself", and completely ruined the project with most potential in recent times. A round of applause for everyone involved in these stupid, out-of-touch decisions!

[@svelterust]

I agree, it's insane what politicians can do 😄

[@KirillMavreshko]

Do not worry. Any human collaboration is bound to be messy sometimes. People come and go, different opinions clash with each other, people get into fights, feel insulted, look for someone to blame and so on. This is part of normal life. What matters, at the end of the day, is the incredible language people still want to use and make better. And for as long as this desire is alive, people will find the way. The dust will settle down, eventually. People will calm down, find an agreement and return to the work they love.

[@trappedcat3615]

Agree. I think people have/had high expectations and did not see this coming.

[@MPSmaruj]

I mostly agree and I have great hopes for the language, but one thing that IMO goes beyond the typical messiness of interpersonal communication is Core Team excluding itself from oversight by the Mod Team. If this is not addressed now it will fester into a much bigger problem eventually. Could be next year, could be in five years -- but sooner or later this will become an issue that by then will have grown beyond any hope of fixing.

[@KirillMavreshko]

@@MPSmaruj I'm not sure that Core Team's decision is such a bad thing. They're called Core Team for a reason after all. They are dedicated people, not a bunch of ignorant teenagers. And I can't believe for a minute that they opted out of control without a good reason. Oversight can be so harsh that it gets in a way of normal team dynamic. For example, if you have an opinionated guy on your team who's constantly allowing terrible code into the main repo. Normally thing will heat up, then the guy would be kicked out, then things will settle down again. Bad publicity? Sure. Effective? Yes. Now imagine the same process with a set of "nicety rules" imposed. You cannot pressure, you cannot blame, you cannot say this, you cannot say that. This will eventually lead to people who Really Cared, leaving the team. Because when you do care, that means you have feelings. And feelings sometimes lead to heated discussions. And these arguments, not niceties, eventually make things better.

[@redcrafterlppa303]

​@@KirillMavreshko I understand your standpoint but moderation != supervision. Disclaimer: I haven't looked into operation of the rust teams beyond watching the video. But a team moderating the other teams for bad behavior and rule braking is positive and a team declaring themselves as above that moderation is basically equivalent to a government party declaring that it will stand above the law and ignore the police. The core team is important, but it's not the monarchy of the rust project. It needs to be moderated like any other team.

[@Barnaclebeard]

Why are you trying to downplay this with a bunch of bullshit sophistry? Don't worry? Fine, but this is something to *pay attention to.* Every collaboration is messy? Not so. And certainly, not equally so. The mess has consequences. It should be addressed, not passively accepted as an inevitable fact of life. We should make an effort to understand what happened and make choices based on our individual values. People will find a way? Some people are finding a way *out.* For some, this is the end of the road, not a trivial bump to forget in a week or two. For everyone else, this is hampering. Events like this suck the oxygen out of the room. The project might not die but don't pretend there aren't real world consequences.

[@everythingtube172]

“Rust is falling apart” Later: “Get your free Rust cheat sheet”

[@LiamDennehy]

I'm so thrilled I found Bogdan's channel. He deeply cares about the Rust community and has spent more time than I can comprehend making it better. Keep going! ❤

[@letsgetrusty]

Appreciate the kind words!

[@emjizone]

I feel betrayed, just as when I realised VRML was killed precisely when people started to know about it and to use it. I can only hope that Crab will be to Rust what LibreOffice is to OpenOffice: a viable future.

[@antilogism]

Funny, I was thinking a similar thing like the fork called MariaDb and that other database I used to use and forgot about.

[@longiusaescius2537]

What's vrnl?

[@stormz4040]

I'm learning Rust and I hope I don't waste my time...

[@Chastor97]

You don't waste your time anyway. You are getting understanding of great programming language principles which will be implemented somewhere in case of rust fail. Most valuable things in programming are underlying key principles, not their implementation

[@cxngo8124]

@@Chastor97 well said.

[@xunjin8897]

You are not, Rust can always be forked :)

[@devnexen]

@@Chastor97 totally agree on this, it had served me well with 2 decades of career.

[@weorkay]

Same with me. 😊

[@zoilorys]

this can seriously hinder mass adoption, cause I have a hard time seeing the big corp committing to the tech surrounded by controversy and bad press.

[@rhone733]

Rust itself was the main hindrance to mass adoption.

[@alexanderoransky7601]

Follow the money. Once they got a taste of big bucks coming, they immediately started isolating the community from the "government". This trend will continue because "wrong people are resigning". If they want to treat the community like garbage, the community will switch to Crablang. I really really hope that that project will take off, kinda like LibreOffice from OpenOffice did. If not, well, there are other modern languages to look at. Also, I wish you a fast recovery!

[@yusufmalikul]

what "other modern languages"?

[@bltzcstrnx]

Most successful languages are corporate backed. Even CNCF and The Linux Foundation are heavily backed by corporations. So why does corporate money lead to all of this drama in the Rust Foundation?

[@ryleitdept]

a taste of money, LOLS

[@BeffJezos69]

I feel like it's unhelpful hyperbole to say the language is falling apart.

[@runitup7029]

This smells like sabotage. Very unsettling for those of us who are building our stack in Rust

[@wjrasmussen666]

Well, what will they do next? Will you have to license it? You never know what could be subject to change.

[@Ryan-xq3kl]

@@wjrasmussen666 you cannot retroactively license free and open source software, its already on your system you own a modifiable copy of it.

[@casraf]

@@Ryan-xq3kl Yes but owning code that you aren't able to update immediately becomes tech debt to be replaced and rewritten. If they lock the language as it is now and many orgs and people couldn't update due to licensing issues, it would effectively kill your ability to use the language properly. It needs to be able to evolve.

[@khatdubell]

This is why you shouldn't jump on a bandwagon as it goes by.

[@araarathisyomama787]

​@@khatdubell What makes Rust a bandwagon?

[@fakestiv]

The C++ killer you say? * laughs in C++ *

[@mariuskriegerowski8378]

They had to apologize quite often in the past. If I had to apologize this frequently for marking co-workers rage I'd probably get fired.

[@mm007emko]

At least they DID apologize.

[@jongeduard]

Basically there are 2 things that kind of surprised me. First of all, Rust going totally viral literally this year, while I had finally decided to learn the language, go through the entire Book and spending a ton of time with it. And then so shortly followed by all this strange negativity and everything. I have been a developer for many years, though I haven't seen a programming language that was such a masterpiece as Rust is, even though C# is also pretty great. But I also haven't seen anything that came with so much heavyness and commotion. 🧐

[@Jonas-ph1gb]

Is this a good time to mention that C++ DOES have garbage collection with smart pointers and vectors (basically a smart-array), which automatically delete themselves at the end of the block they were defined in? (The only sources of memory leaks come from the pre ‘03 version of C++, only still existing for backwards compatibility, and can be 100% replaced with these new options)

[@anon_y_mousse]

Is this a good time to mention that even C has garbage collection? You've got many options, but you could use the Boehm GC which has existed for over 30 years now, or you could always use atexit() in all of your allocations or you could use a pool allocator technique, or even the no-allocation technique.

[@adityaj21]

more important question what happened to your eye

[@EtherwroughtPaige]

Thanks, i'd been seeing a few things about this but hadn't got time to really figure out exactly what was happening yet.

[@cabc74]

Win for C++. They have an official standards body under the umbrella of ISO. Shiny new thing vs stability of the specs.

[@diadetediotedio6918]

I think a large part of this conflict is caused by a misunderstanding of the implications of taking certain actions, people tend to exaggerate a lot about little things and as it reverberates they become more and more certain of their own criticisms and of the things they absorb externally than actually being grounded rationally. That said, these events were problematic and I believe Crab-lang's initiative is valid and should be encouraged.

[@brdrnda3805]

I agree with everything except the Crab-lang thing. IMHO, this is premature. There's no real reason to do it now, there's nothing preventing doing it later. For now, working on Crab-Lang is a waste of ressources. But it could serve as a shot across the bow - expressing towards the project / leadership: "If you don't behave / work properly, we can do without you"

[@diadetediotedio6918]

@@brdrnda3805 I think that's exactly why it's not premature, having different fronts to "fight" in case of need and to pass on a message. Their job will only be to keep the branches updated with Rust's own (it doesn't incur great maintenance and/or development costs) and to change the names of some things in order to allow the fork to be differentiated. This also allows insecure and hysterical people to continue using the language in one form or another for the time being, and if in the future they improve that fork may be abandoned (or even become something new, competition is also good for a language).

[@Iifesteal]

Consensus model, good, but I imagine that it would be limited to the decisions that they want peoples opinions on. In no way does it guarantee that we know everything what is going on. To increase transparency get their whole decision making model out there, so we can see what their timeline is.

[@astronemir]

Consensus is actually a bullshit way of not having a properly accountable leader. You cannot magically create a consensus model from the same incompetence pool with the same people..

[@ValentinBaca]

JS / ECMA drama. Java, Android, and Oracle. Python’s BDFL. As Rust had experienced hypergrowth it’s undoubtedly going to have growing pains. People leaving is dramatic but people staying, learning, and improving will overall bring stability, accountability, and maturity for the language and community.

[@flyaruu]

Why is everyone so emotional? From where I'm standing, it looks like every disagreement or mistake turns into all kinds of dramatic gestures.

[@vectoralphaAI]

Yes but disagreements that can cost companies millions of dollars. So it's a big deal.

[@timerertim]

@@vectoralphaAI I see no scenario where that would be the case with the current "controversies"

[@n0kodoko143]

1st: Wishing your a speedy recovery with your eye. 2nd: I hope this doesn't turn into C++ with 15,000 versions. :/

[@256k_]

hey Bogdan, Hope your eye is doing well and recovering from whatever happened to it. take care of yourself

[@seth-blank]

Hopefully it keeps moving along, and rust becomes more popular. Ive recently been using it for the 1st time and am so happy with how easy to setup a project and use library's it is unlike some languages (Looking at you c++)

[@cruisecontrol1489]

Как тут уже было верно подмечено - менеджмент может разрушить превосходную инженерную работу. Не поверю что это начало конца. Надеюсь ситуация послужит импульсом для налаживания бизнес процессов компании

[@bakasenpaidesu]

Meanwhile I started learning rust 2 days ago ....

[@gabrock55]

All I can say to try and help calm people that are just getting into Rust, if Manjaro is still an operating system solely because the comunity believes it shouldnt go anywhere, it should be a testament of the power if a community. Plus the nature of it being a language, languages dont belong to only one person or group. Just dont stop using it and striving to make it better and it wont be going anywhere.

[@astronemir]

In this case it literally belongs to them. I have to follow their code of conduct to use the language

[@zyansheep]

@@astronemir no, you have to follow the code of conduct to participate in *official* rust community spaces. the code itself (including forks) are governed by the dual Apache 2.0 / MIT license. No one can stop the community from forking the project.

[@monadic_monastic69]

@@astronemir Don't spread easily disprovable misinformation; if that were true (and even without asking how licenses work), then how is it possible for Crablang to exist?

[@gabrock55]

@@monadic_monastic69 100%. Btw what exactly is a monad? Hahaha good meme

[@monadic_monastic69]

@@gabrock55 A monad is something that transforms as a tensor.

[@doomguy6296]

Drama is caused by people. Not technology. Rust is an excellent tool that's already deeply invested. Rust will be fine either way

[@Light_Akira]

man, what happen with your eye? get well soon!

[@dionysis_]

We need to keep. Politics. Out of. Rust. I always said this. it would be a sad way for a language to fail…

[@stacklysm]

Very true, politics (and bureaucracy) have been major hindrances to innovation in technology, they don't mix at all.

[@wjrasmussen666]

Seem like this might be a case of that. Very sad.

[@voyageproper]

@@stacklysm lol. no. total wrong. both politics and bureaucracy are necessary. you seem very confused. the issue was LACK of proper bureaucracy, and lack of organizational management of political issues. anarky and lack of proper procedures, rules, guidlings and bureaucracy IS THE PROBLEM. lol. you apparntly all totally missed the point. fools think "bureaucracy" is some evil things. its not. its extremely important. it needs to be done correctly. and with transparency, and governable.

[@stacklysm]

​@@voyageproper The decisions of the Rust Foundation were so misplaced and stupid that I just wrote my comment in anger and left. I do recognize that administration (when done right) is essential to any project of any size, I'm no fool, I just wasn't thinking straight. Although, some kinds of politics (the ones you've mentioned) are infinite times more useful than others (which isn't the case here with Rust, but still)

[@dionysis_]

@@voyageproper Bureaucracy is normal administration gone wrong. Politics are thought to be ok only by those who agree with the current supported ideology and are too shortsighted to understand that even this imagined good may not last.

[@estuardohernandez4230]

I am starting learning Rust and after watch this video I have some doubts if I am in the right path. What do you suggest? Continue learning rust o change the path to c/c++?

[@alexandrep4913]

Primeagen trying to keep it together. Be strong.

[@rhone733]

I'm shocked that no one saw this coming.

[@ganesharon]

May be there is reason why c and c++ being used for so much long time. Their makers where not that much money minded. I am also ending my rust journey with this. Better learn c++/c# this time.

[@alexanderoransky7601]

C++ is dead by they do not want to admit it. They keep adding features to the language that was already huge 15 years ago, trying to modernize it but the backward compatibility holds them down. It is true that there is a huge code base but how many new projects are written in it?

[@ganesharon]

@@alexanderoransky7601 omniverse, unreal engine still uses it. Also c# is good alternative. Which is fast also.

[@devon9374]

@@alexanderoransky7601 Then why are AI startups like DeepMind using it? They could have easily chose RUST.

[@jayshartzer844]

InB4 this channel's name is changed to "Let's Get Ziggy"

[@peterradziewicz4685]

Get ziggy wit it

[@thingsiplay]

I started learning Zig. If this continues with Rust, then that is something I don't want part of. I really like Rust. Hopefully the Linux developers will not kick out Rust from the Kernel.

[@araarathisyomama787]

They waited a pretty long time to incorporate Rust and now this happens, I don't think "kicking out" would get more aggressive than "no new modules in Rust" if it happens at all (why waste someone else's work), unless Rust tries to mess with licensing... Hey, also learning Zig.

[@kennethbeal]

Curious what happened to your eye. (My left one doesn't work, and has had surgery.) Hope you heal nicely!

[@GekoPrime]

Please share links to the blog posts and press releases described in this video?

[@ColinFox]

Just remember that no one is above the law. If some part of the leadership is not following the rules, they need to be disciplined or ousted. The rules are supposed to be there so everyone can get along and cooperate, knowing that the rules apply to everyone. If you start ignoring those rules, you end up with anarchy.

[@PeterVitus-tk7vw]

Rust is run by children. This is why I refuse to let my company adopt it. In general we use C or Ada. Both of which are extremely mature languages that have been used in some of the most important firmware on Earth. Integrity matters.

[@mikoTheGreat]

Rustconf is in more than 3 months. Wouldn't exactly say they announced in the "last minute".

[@thisiswill]

What is with these toxic Rust leadership personalities having power trips. This is embarrassing. Going to have to give Zig another look 👀 Rust lang is still young enough that these decisions are significantly impressionable on dev and company adopters, whether to continue with it or not.

[@paulmarkert5907]

Thanks for the update. I'm stunned and saddened to hear that such a great language may find it's future destroyed by organizational politics. Technologies that enjoy mass acceptance only survive if they are supported by stable organizations - corporate, private or communal doesn't matter. I appreciate the power players are trying to fix their relational issues, but this is enough to give me pause on further adopting and exploring Rust. The root issues here have to to with the organizations and the lack of strong, centralized leadership that can drive the vision and ensure the quality of the product. Even if they fix the current issues, the split organization structure and lack of accountability between those organizations makes me think this can all happen again in the future. I'm watching. I hope they fix all this! Rust is a great language, and it's demise would be a shame.

[@wjrasmussen666]

As something that could have been the replacement for C++, it is sad to see this come about. Now they have a perception problem which is hard to overcome.

[@eriksiers]

I've given some thought to learning Rust, especially with its growing popularity, but this... This just kind of confirms my hesitance to do so

[@maxali6591]

This is frustrating. It's not possible for this project to end like this. Because over bureaucrating it.... What their purpose? To show that even such a language has a weakness? I mean a human one? It just a mess. I'll continue to learn this until the end but now there is a precedence and making it go to the industry will be longer now...

[@voyageproper]

what? no one "over buroeactized it" you people dont seem to know what bureaucracy is. it was the LACK of bureaucracy, the lack of proper proticals and following of guildnes, and the clearly incompoted and isolated leadership. which was not engaged with the community. for a orginztion to be suessful it NEEDS bureaucracy. and it needs one which is effective and responcive. not anakry. what rust has is a small group of "unaccountbale leaders" which is totally opposed to the concepts of a proper transparent bureaucratizes system.

[@longiusaescius2537]

@voyageproper bureaucracy doesn't make anything transparent or accountable inherently

[@InMemoryOfNeo]

I think rust is awesome language and it will conquer all low level languages in near future. Because of that it needs a good management. But I can't see any good management behaviours. This causes concerns on me.

[@sdwone]

Lol! That's a pretty bold claim! But by all means, keep daydreaming 😊

[@InMemoryOfNeo]

@@sdwone everything begins with dreaming

[@sdwone]

@@InMemoryOfNeo Indeed! But I really can't see new generations of computer languages taking hold until oldies (like me!) die out first! Unless I'm forced to, I honestly have neither the time, nor the energy to keep up with all these new languages that keep popping up! NO language is perfect! And rather than keep on reinventing that wheel, I would rather just work with what we have! And the C family of languages (C, C++ and C#) suits me just fine! I would rather live in a world in which we have to master just a small handful of languages, than one in which we have to master 100s of languages, because that will only lead to chaos. But hey... I guess only Time will tell how things will eventually pan out! However, people claiming that old languages like C and C++ will die out is nothing new! People have been making such claims for a VERY long time... And yet these languages are STILL thriving! Computer languages, just like human languages, are stubborn beasts! I mean there are plenty of people that believe we should all be trying to learn Mandarin, because China looks set to become the dominate superpower within 50 years... But even if that is the case, I can't see people abandoning English! That is WAY too much effort!!! Similar situation with established computer languages. So yeah, those of us who are already established with old languages, will find it VERY difficult to make the switch. So I guess it's all about what languages will the younger generations adopt. And if they start to adopt Rust in droves then MAYBE this language has a chance to become dominate in the next generation or two. But that is hardly the near future!

[@igorsk1133]

bro, what happened with your eye?

[@visaeryon]

i have finally decided on learning rust this year and here we have this.

[@krisdoe]

With so many resignations, what would mean this shaky situation for existing implementations of Rust (where is already embedded)? There are active projects which was so hardly convinced to use it at first place (and not only). The language will become outdated quite fast if issues are not solved.

[@untoldhorrordude]

Microsoft is shipping Rust versions of libraries inside the Windows kernel so they definitely have an interest in this situation. My speculation is that if this gets too far out of hand, they will step in and get it back under control; a takeover wouldn't be a good idea so they'll probably start assigning dev teams to areas to drown out the bad actors.

[@grzesiek9514]

That deeply saddens me. I thought Rust is pure perfection and will replace C++ in the future. But now i’m concerned that some companies may not adopt Rust because of this situation. I hope they figure this out.

[@wjrasmussen666]

If rumors (can't verify) are true, some had dropped Rust. Might be false information. If anyone can verify that information that would be great.

[@sharkpyro93]

@@wjrasmussen666 what information? which companies are you talking about?

[@terrytoolin3285]

I really enjoy this channel. I am a Rust nooby (a couple of weeks) and I am an intermediate-level python programmer looking for a compiled language, and I'm not afraid of static typing (in fact, that may be the better way to go). I hope that I am not putting effort into a better-than-good language that may be losing all the support that is making it better-than-good. Feel better, Bogdan!

[@cryptonaut8911]

As a c++/ python programmer can't wait for the mojo programming language to be released amd become mainstream.

[@LunyaTheGay]

are there any updates on it

[@user-vn9ld2ce1s]

Okay, CrabLang it is.

[@xenocampanoli815]

Thank you. I had no idea. I'm not as much into the pop posts but I appreciate all the good ramp - up around Rust. I was hoping to start using it. Let's hope it can shake free of any more corruption and other shenanigans. Thank you for your work.

[@animanaut]

is this compile time programming topic camparable to constexpr in c++ ?

[@chairmakerPete]

That's a real shame. I've dabbled with Rust a little bit, bought a couple of books, and so forth. Now it seems the whole thing is crashing and burning, so perhaps better to try Zig or Go?

[@workflowinmind]

Let's get Crabby

[@MechMK1]

The problem isn't the lack of leadership consensus. The problem is that the leadership wants bad things.

[@dimasveliz6745]

Yeah, the trademark thing was a kill for every company Rust-related outside of the rust foundation itself

[@ksnyou]

Could you pls share a cheat sheet for Rust leadership

[@monadic_monastic69]

I think this situation is pretty ass, however I think I'm relieved that the pain points are centered around an easy to spot place (considering the problematic individuals specifically seem hard to spot): Rust leadership. It could get so much worse, such as multiple splintering of the community (and splintering into way more than just two groups) + are both the Linux Foundation and Microsoft going to suddenly drop Rust after adopting it? It's pretty bad to have leadership acting like that, but it's simultaneously a bit silly to let such a small number of individuals (that you can count by hand) cause so much destruction in their wake.

[@toranshaw4029]

I had put Rust on my languages to learn list, especially with it now being in the Linux Kernel, now I'm not too sure if it'll reamin there! 🤔

[@marknefedov]

Hey, what happened to your eye? Hope you are doing well.

[@Faze.Holo.]

Honestly I don't think that a few higher-up mistakes will singlehandedly kill a programming language. I really wish you went into more detail about the trademark stuff though because whatever it is I know it has to be bad.

[@yashjha0007]

which programming language to learn now?

[@CheeseOfMasters]

After seeing all that, and especially the logo controversy I went with Zig. I wasn't professionally employed in the Rust space but used it for minor projects and little game prototypes. It's sad to see the core team go in this direction but it doesn't sit right with me to continue using what is essentially their product.

[@michimarz]

Too early to bet on Zig. Let's wait at least 20 years.

[@newshhh]

the community needs a way to vote out the ones who caused these drama in the so-called “leadership” team. that’s what taking responsibility means.

[@michimarz]

What I observe lately is that some people are leaving Rust for C.

[@cabeloDoPardal2]

"Don't stop... releasing" "Hold on to that leadership, oh yeah"

[@s0er3n33]

What did rust do to your eye?

[@rodgarcia80]

No need to worry about this. Remeber that Node fork called IO? It eventually got merged into the main project after some changes in the governance model. This is just a protest fork.

[@sentou31]

Really sad to hear. Learning rust was/is probably the most rewarding thing I did in the last years when it comes to technology. I know there are already forks like crab lang but this seems like a wrong direction. It seems very fishy what the rust foundation is doing and I wonder what they plan with those actions ... Money/Power I guess, sigh.

[@seannyc88]

New to programming i bought a pretty thick rust book to learn I’m curious is it now irrelevant i feel like the clock is ticking now

[@cherubin7th]

They should change the structure to undermine this back-channels, but changing the trade mark policy, so that conferences are not subject to arbitrary revoking of the trade mark use permission. Right now they need to follow orders, or they risk losing the right to call themselves a rust conference in the name. Also the policy should include that conferences are required to ignore back-channels.

[@anguschiu2]

IMHO, such bad decisions unlikely a group decision but more likely a powerful individual(s) do such thing in stupid way. No team leader or group will let entire team go, unless the boss approved that

[@justin_ooo]

agreed

[@RafaelTorquato]

I'm learning Rust, I hope everything goes fine.

[@moazm.mokhtar8776]

I started my career with Rust, invest myself on it, and not getting offers for other languages which I really believe in it. It seems that Rust team started to fix the concerns. I can't see Rust will die because it is a very attractive effective solution for old programming languages, but may its team changed, name changed, etc. Finally, I respect your content, and I see your eyes, I hope your eye gets better soon.

[@micmacha]

I know where you're coming from, but realistically, some of us said that about Java once.

[@NameEncrypted]

Forgiveness can help us and moving forward together.

[@HmongCrypto]

I have seen centralization my whole life claiming to fix this or that. It never goes well at the very end. Crab will definitely be on my radar.

[@lorenzo42p]

what is the core cause? do the people involved with that core cause still sit at the top? will there continue to be controversy, and if there is, will they step down?

[@devmesh5340]

Is someone actually pulling strings behind the scenes to bring down the Rust we love? Like the trademark controversy, the reaction by the community should have been obvious. I sure do hope the future is brighter than it is now.

[@JohnnysaidWhat]

Things move to fast things live and die too fast. This is so sad. It’s hard to trust the stability of anything anymore…

[@AlexanderHyll]

Look, its a blow, but some drama isn’t killing or destroying the language. ”Being destroyed” is just click bait. There’s plenty of positives going for rust just as there has been. The process of improving always includes pain points.

[@brucerosner3547]

The dirty secret In the open source projects is that they are rife with petty jealousies, conflicts and disputes. Open source workers imagine themselves as more virtuous that those in the commercial field but human nature is fundamental.

[@harleyspeedthrust4013]

I said it last time; when you have a cancer in the body you need to destroy it or it will keep coming back. The idiots who proposed the IP stuff about the rust name and logo should have been fired immediately, without second thought

[@jaysoni93]

Okay! So I just started learning rust and wanted to spend all my free time to be a good rust developer. Should I now give it a second thought?