RWW201 Barron Dovetail Guides

[@WoodByWright]

Thanks! I was wanting to see that. I personally prefer obviously irregular Dovetails but that sure does make it simple. But my judgement is which is more fun. the shop enjoyment is the whole reason for the shop in my mind.

[@francisbarnett]

Completely agree with your comment regarding hand sawing being a skill that once mastered is a skill that transfers into using other hand tool.

[@FearsomeWarrior]

If David Barron is at HandWerks 2023 I'll probably buy one. I remember him being there 2018 and was so tempted despite it likely just sitting on shelf looking pretty. Pencil line works well enough.

[@MarkSWilliams27]

I thought about the "training wheels" aspect of this too. In fact, I used those exact words. But then, I came to my senses and realized using a guide such as this is NO different than using a miter box. Only a fool would attempt cutting a room full of crown molding without a miter box. As far as body mechanics are concerned, it's probably a simple matter of becoming acclimated to a different way of working. One doesn't walk onto a golf course with a new club and expect the situation to be exactly as before. You are a highly skilled woodworker with years of doing things a certain way. This guide is a godsend to the rest of us who have cut merely scores, not tens of thousands of dovetails freehand.

[@GauchoWoodworking]

I was always scared and I think this accessory will give me the guts to do dovetail joints. Thank you again for using and showing an item that you normally would not.

[@BrianMcCauleyDesign]

I'm no dovetailing pro but I really like the challenge of no additional help. Makes feel better about messing it up!

[@michaelbettell3292]

I have a Barron guide which I find brilliant. Reason? I only cut maybe 4 or 5 dovetail sets a year and so can't develop the motor skills and practice which a professional woodworker who spends every day at his bench can do. So for amateurs like me the guide is a Godsend.

[@joshuawood9019]

You set the guide on the next step. I started and learned with those guides and a bad axe stiletto and never had a problem bottoming out and staying 90 degrees across the cut. I think they are great for beginners learning to cut dovetails. I no longer need them after about a month or two of practicing with those guides. An extra step for a perfect joint is worth it in my book.

[@bobbyhomevideos]

I recall one of your podcasts where you covered that very topic, and I agree. My problem is, I have never seen or been able to put my hands on a dovetail joint. I have made some good cuts, but not consistently. I am just getting started in this hobby and when I learn to except the feedback from the saw I will have it.

[@jamesorr1200]

I have one of David's guides and the 372 saw as well as a LN dovetail saw. I've used both with the guide. When the LN bottoms out, I just move guide. The kerf keeps the cut aligned. I've never felt awkward using it, but I also hold the 372 right up against the blade like a chef's knife. I always made the cut on the right side of the guide (my dominant side). When it's time to do the other, I just flip the board around. This is how I was taught to cut them freehand as well.

[@antonvierthaler]

Thanks, this was really helpful! I am a beginner (tried my first dovetails a week ago) and was thinking about getting those - mainly hoping they would help me get a feel for the »right« sawing. After your video, I think I might get those sometime in future - but will first try to develop the skill without guides.

[@dvtsaw]

I use the guide with my regular saw just to start the cut square across then remove the guide and finish freehand. Same with the pins. Within a week I didn't need the guide anymore but I still use it when cutting on a large project that I want no mistakes on.

[@4578simonhi]

This guide got me started and enabled me to get great results from day one. I've recently completed a course with David where he set me a project that doc not allow me to use the guide but had to cut everything free hand. I was nervous but it came out really well and I will probably continue to cut them freehand. The guide really helped me learn the mechanics of cutting dovetails by hand. If I had a load of drawers that needed doing I would probably go back to the guide just for quickness but I'm now happy to work either way. It would be great to point out that the one thing the guides enable you to do is cut right to the line in the waste and see very easily just how close to the line the saw is cutting enabling you to sneak right up to the line. This saves having to pare which in my opinion introduces an unnecessary step where errors can creep in leaving a less than perfect joint. Thanks for your review.

[@RenaissanceWW]

most definitely. I aim for all my joinery to fit off the saw. If it doesn't then my chances of gaps and sloppiness increases dramatically.

[@danwestfall1332]

Oh man Shannon, this gave me a hearty chuckle. You guys totally bashed these guides as "training wheels" on the Woodtalk show a few years back. Dovetail guides are great for those of us who only cut dovetails every so often..... and don't want them to look like a hack-job. Hobbyists will never saw with the muscle memory of Klaus, and that's okay. Anyway, glad you can acknowledge the upsides now.

[@jeremiah3543]

Dan Westfall I agree. a good analogy would be : Frank Klausz is like a MMA heavyweight champion and a whole lot of us (hobbyists)are training to fight via KZbin. Lol if your a hobbiest but want hand cut dove tails then this could be your savior. I'm not a MMA fighter so I'll carry a stun gun for protection. I work 50-60 hours a week, don't have time to commit 1000s of hours to a specific part of my hobby just to be a purist and feel I'm better than other people.

[@NorfolkHandmade]

Great review Shannon! I felt that same about not training proper body mechanics. It's a great tool when you don't cut a lot of dovetails by hand. I think it also fits when you need to bust out some quick dovetails and don't want to think about it. All the bench kits at the school were made with this jig and they certainly went a lot faster.

[@RenaissanceWW]

one of the comments on my blog brought up the advantage of using these guides when gang cutting tails in drawers and I hadn't thought of that, but I agree that it would make the square cut across 6 or 8 drawer sides much more accurate.

[@NorfolkHandmade]

definitely! In teaching, it's a great way to create that immediate sense of accomplishment.

[@randthor9344]

Great video. Love the honest feedback that seems so rare with review vids. Keep it up.

[@PeriodWoodworker]

Good product test Shannon. I am glad you did this because I had talked to Barron also about doing a product review and I am now glad I decided not to do the review. Thanks again, Steve

[@BobDaniel]

I've only used them a couple of times, but I had good results with the equivalent Lee Valley guides and a flush trim saw. The magnets keep the flimsy flush trim saw tracking perfectly, and being backless, depth is no problem (until you run out of saw, I guess, LOL). I still need the training wheels...

[@JackbenchWoodworking]

Thanks for the excellent demonstration and review!

[@erikjoven2388]

It takes some getting used to - but the real power of this guide is the system that it helps you to develop for cutting dovetails. You save considerable time in layout and cleanup - and - because you're always sawing on the same angle you become very good at it - as opposed to having to master sawing both sides of your tails and pins. It is a good idea to develop those skills anyway though! And - as you say - once set in your ways, learning new tricks is definitely a challenge! A good honest review though!

[@cobberpete1]

I looked at these guides a few years ago, and after a little thought decided against them; reason being, I want my skill to improve and not rely on 'Training wheels'. I did take the idea and use the alignment board. Like you I do have a Japanese saw (I bought to try), but it rarely leaves the cupboard.

[@artrobert0875]

Ive really grown to like your channel man! Keep up the good work

[@snh_lname]

Hi Shannon-The height of saw issue you pointed to is easily overcome. Use the guide as far as it takes you, then remove the guide and continue freehand using the track made with the guide. That also removes the baseline issue. You can then see it clearly. The right angle piece for marking the pins, I thought, was the simple but elegant solution to lining things up. I bought the guide several years ago (with the saw) and I use it every now and then to change things up. The only problem I have is the plastic wore away and needed to be replaced. It is far cleaner than the LV model. For the cost, it was worth it until my freehand skills grew enough to do without it.

[@RenaissanceWW]

I made that alignment board originally to help with really wide case pieces since more tails equal more problems is not aligned perfectly. Now I use it all the time. I eliminates the 3rd hand so often needed to get everything perfect.

[@snh_lname]

I use it all the time too. The guide, not so much.

[@gregsabados3762]

Thanks for being as objective as possible. I haven't hand cut dove tails before, but like you I am more comfortable using a western style saw. I was thinking using the guide would definitely help with layout and if you had the shorter saw, you could use a "hybrid" (who uses that word?) approach and use the guide to get started and then finish the cut without it. That would really mean you were using the guide as training wheels.

[@jonescrusher1]

You make a good point with the chiselling, the skill still needs to be there to clean up with the chisel to get the fit right.

[@danielgeng2306]

Shannon would I be correct in saying once my cut is started I could finish the cut free hand fairly easily? I know this is an old video and I can cut free hand I just think David is such a decent guy he makes me want to buy his guide.

[@ronin4711]

for a beginner it's a wonderful guide, as for "an old dog", it's hard to learn a new trick. it works well also with western saws but, I came to a conclusion that it'll work best with a Japanese Ryoba saw cutting on the "rip" part but for you it'll be too hard. despite the saw-set laminate, you managed to scratch the guide, it proves that this wasn't meant for you! you could see clearly on Dave's videos that he cuts just fine with it without a complaint of the position or stance... an open mind to "new" things, will take you further, always! in any way, thanks for sharing...

[@johncullinan8041]

Try watching the David Barron video on using the guides. He shows you how to use them with ease and not the awkward stance you have found yourself adopting. Like all guides there is a good and a less good way to use them but overall a good video and analysis.

[@edwardmclean9051]

Great vid as always. I'm listening to some old Wood Talks from the archive. You said you were excited to do this review in WT#204 from 11/10/2014 at the 13 minute mark.

[@patjackson1657]

As a habitual user of Japanese style saws, I think the "body mechanics" issue has to do with the height of your work surface. Your wrist is cocked, 6" lower might help.

[@robinmarwick1982]

This is a really helpful and balanced review many thanks... unfortunately my credit card is about to get a hammering. Dovetail AND a 90°.

[@Exodus5K]

Shannon, I'm jealous of your free saw guides. I don't have a reputable woodworking website so I'm going to have to buy the damn things like a normy.

[@berghauss]

You get the idea that you can easy solve the problem of left hand with simple flipping the board, do you? And do all your cuttings with right hand? With registering base line and upper cutting lines, its up to you which hand is your dominant. This magnetic guide actually allows avoiding weird body mechanic. Or drawing cutting lines from top to base line on both sides.

[@tylercaldwell8063]

Really appreciate your videos. It's really helping me in the traditional lifestyle I'm trying to achieve. Just curious, what is your intro song? I really want to hear the full version.

[@RenaissanceWW]

Its a Free Music Archive version of Chatham County Line performing "Birmingham Jail". Great band and their album "Route 23" is a great one.

[@michaelhechmer590]

You don't have to go to a saw with a deeper cut. Once the cut is established, ditch the guide and just let the saw follow the angle you have already established for it. I have the same issue using the Katz-Moses guide, but have found it to be no big deal.

[@baileysbootstraps8170]

Great vid Thanks. I've been struggling with my dove tails (due to fear) !!! for a long time.Went into the shop and copied your every move. Everything came out back to front ????Then I realised I'M RIGHT HANDEDHappy days !

[@bobbyhomevideos]

Being able to use a hand saw effectively is more than just good body mechanics, it also requires a visual aspect. As a blind woodworker, this might be just what I need to get started cutting dovetails.

[@RenaissanceWW]

I can't possibly understand what it takes to make a good saw cut without sight Bobby, but I can tell you that the visual side of things it at the bottom of the list. Touch and sound of the saw are the most important so don't discount them. But yes to your point, in this case where we are matching the pins to the shape of the tails I could see the guides being a great advantage.

[@richardflint4536]

I have used these guides for as long as they have been around and if you can overcome the "guilt factor" you will never cut dovetails any other way, amateur or pro. The biggest benefit, apart from beautiful crisp joints (every single time) is the time saved in marking out. I mainly eyeball the location of my cuts so apart from a baseline there is nothing else to do. Forget removing the waste just get a stopwatch(it's the same for any method and see how much time reducing your layout to virtually nothing and not agonising over the cut will save. When you need to batch out half a dozen drawers the savings are enormous, as is the time fretting over small errors and should they pass, be junked or repaired. To me time is money. I would say to the amateur they will pay for themselves in all the valuable stock you will save yourself by getting it right first time every time. But remember you will feel guilty (I did to start with) that it wasn't all your own work. Strangely I never felt like this when I used a mitre box or shooting board??? I have now watched your video a couple of times and I have two observations that would definitely help you. You are gripping the handle way to far from the blade, bring your hand up the handle to the blade and you will find it way more comfortable and balanced. To understand what I mean tape 12in of broom handle onto your Western saw and grip that at the end to feel how wrong your current grip is. Simply, you look and it feels awkward because you are not holding the saw correctly. If you want to see what I mean watch David himself kzbin.info/www/bejne/iauZaYN4dr5-nK8 Additionally although I may be wrong, relax your grip and trust the magnet will grip the saw (trust me it will). It will also let you feel the cut on the pull stroke. You may never love this guide and Japanese saws as much as I do but give them a chance with these two tips and you may find you will lean further towards using them more yourself. I agree totally with your point regarding it not being good for developing your sawing skills, but your final comment regarding how much you love the 90 degree guide and how much you'll use it really is a contradiction.

[@riskmandel1]

Will you be using western saws with the guide going forward?

[@RenaissanceWW]

Probably, but I honestly doubt I'll be using the guide much in the future. I much prefer working without it.

[@briarfox637]

I use the guide because I have a wrist injury that doesn't allow me to align my wrist with my arm. The guide allowed me to finally saw straight and parallel.

[@JayCWhiteCloud]

Thanks for the video and a thorough perspective...FROM...a given perspective...All in all...Well presented. My perspective (validation: 40 plus years as a traditional green wood and timber framing craftsman within the folk arts of several cultures) is there is no such thing as...TRAINING WHEELS...Frankly, that is a bit obtuse and/or narrow in view or of logic, as well as sound reasoning from my perspective and experience. The crafts of master artisan from Asia to the Middle East all use "guides" many times and very often. It is a standard in the craft and has been for literally several millennia. Are they always need? No, of course not but still often reached for, especially when many thousands of repetitive cuts... As for..." weird body mechanics going on"...I find that typical with most students and contributed to them developing either a different (often very poor) muscle memory due to not learning to work a hand tool correctly in the first place and/or poor physicality, such as weak muscles, being overweight, etc. A saw guide actually "teaches" proper muscle memory and builds the correct muscles/nerve connections to make repetitive cuts accurately, and correctly. In time a guide may not always be needed if only making a few joints at a given time because of this more proper development of skill set... As you are well aware, many Eastern saws work only on the pull stroke. This speaks to body dynamic again as for a cut, as you made in this video, often the legs are used to clamp the work to the table which means a range of motion (and physicality and flexibility) that Westerners simply do not have... Love the channel, and enjoy your perspectives and viewpoints. Thanks for sharing them...

[@SkylersRants]

Can't you just move the guide down to the other step and keep using the guide on a shallower dovetail saw after the initial cut is made?

[@skyrim4713]

where can I get it from in the us

[@riskmandel1]

In the end, dId you prefer the western saw over the Japanese saw?

[@RenaissanceWW]

of course, that's only natural considering its my comfort zone. I've never been a fan of straight handles and my brain works on the push stroke so it was inevitable that it felt better to use the western saw.

[@EditRoom2012]

Thanks for the guide. Noticed the posters. What did you think of the new Captain America movie?

[@RenaissanceWW]

Great movie. I was skeptical going into it having read every book in the Civil War series when they came out in the 90s (I think) and then again last year. It was a monumental amount of story to compress into a feature film and Marvel Studios did a great job of capturing the emotion and personalities of each major character.

[@EditRoom2012]

+RenaissanceWW I wasn't as convinced mainly because Iron Man seemed to take the limelight but this is a Woodworking channel so I'll leave it at that. Great to meet a woodworker who also shares a passion for comics. By the way your tip for using chamfered edges to flatten boards is gold. I use it all the time. Keep up the great videos and thanks.

[@SnuffyIsBack]

Holding the saw properly might aide in your poisoning and resolving your complaint. The 372 is not meant to be held at the far end end the handle. Grip it closer toward the blade, drop 25 pounds from the gut, and then your positioning will not feel awkward. Watching David Barron videos, this is an excellent product for precise dovetails. Regardless if you use this or cut freehand, you need to know how to hold a Japanese saw.

[@RenaissanceWW]

GEH okay somebody is having a bad day?

[@SnuffyIsBack]

RenaissanceWW Lol! No, I'm fine. I'm not the one complaining about this jig. this type jig had been around since ancient times. David simply put a magnet in it. I just thought it was a bit unfair to describe this as "awkward". It's "awkward" because you have positioned yourself to MAKE it awkward. You are not holding the saw correctly. The old American version of of a dovetail saw had a handle no longer than a fret saw. You are holding the saw incorrectly and thereby positioning yourself away from cut. I'm reminded of the Great golf instructor Harvey Penick. He had a student that was a Judge. The Judge had a large girth and he couldn't see the golf ball when properly addressing the ball on the tee (awkward). Harvey had no solution for the Judge other than to advise him to "Always play with clean balls". Thanks for the video.

[@williambranham6249]

I've been using Japanese saws for quite a while. I never took the time to learn the correct way to hold them. I thought if the handle was 10 to 15 in. that, like a hammer, it worked best if the entire length was used. Is choking up on the handle only for dovetails or for all use?

[@wmcrash]

Looks like the Veritas patent on magnetic dovetail guides has expired. Just a simple search on the net brings up David Barron and Katz-Moses as makers of magnetic dovetail guides.

[@amiddled]

Nice little work bench here...was this one you made yourself?

[@RenaissanceWW]

yes, check out my video from a while back kzbin.info/www/bejne/nKG0oaWImNGWqdU on the Joinery Bench

[@GauchoWoodworking]

How about using a tenon saw?

[@RenaissanceWW]

Of course. A tenon saw is just a big dovetail saw right? Just like with planes, you'll have an easier time if you balance the size of the saw with the work at hand. Cutting fine drawer dovetails with a 16 or 18" tenon saw might be a bad idea. It can be done, but the coarse pitch and set might make for an adventure

[@GauchoWoodworking]

+RenaissanceWW I have a Lie Nelson dovetail that lives in the box that came in ... Lol

[@RenaissanceWW]

Bad Bobby, Bad!

[@mnldgbD]

many thanks

[@robs5186]

honest opinion Thank you

[@ThePhilGrimm]

The mechanics are wrong on the Japanese saw because you're not holding the saw as recommended. Choke down on the handle really close to the blade.

[@Exodus5K]

This was a realization I had by accident. I had been learning to use a chef's knife properly, so when I used my dozuki to make a fine crosscut in that same period of time, I kind of mindlessly grabbed it like a chef's knife. Something clicked and I instantly realized that I could control the blade so much easier this way.

[@scottgates601]

I agree that using these would rob you of the potential skill that you could possess. Seems like you'd become dependent on them, plus $140 for couple bits of aluminium?????

[@Teddy-zz6kp]

Why doesn't he have any subscribers?

[@deezynar]

The jig would be improved if it had a clamp on it so it held itself to the work, rather than forcing you into an unnatural body position. As for flipping the work to saw the other side, just learn to use your right hand to saw.

[@RenaissanceWW]

LOL, while I wholeheartedly agree with embracing ambidexterity, making concessions so that I can force the use of a guide is a bit too far in my opinion. I might as well go back to a 6" powered jointer and convince myself I don't need to use boards wider than that.

[@deezynar]

RenaissanceWW Mastering the use of your right hand would be helpful in many more situations than just using this guide. BTW, I agree with you that these guides are not the ultimate answer for hand cut dovetails.

[@jeremiah3543]

Did you just say you have horrible body mechanics? Marc Spag was right! 🤣😂

[@mskulls83]

weird? You are nice to those things.. Guides still ok those stupid pull saws that sheds teeth faster than an cat does hair after 18 yrs as a wood worker i just don't get those things.

[@fredpierce6097]

The best part may have been how your shirt color matched that green guide. I have little doubt that technology will eventually have programmable handsaws that you only have to hold onto while your hands and arms are held limp. In the meantime, green is my favorite color. 🫑🥦🍏🎄☘️🦖🐸

[@betavulgaris7888]

This does nothing except diminish real skill ie learning to saw properly.