Ryoma learns of the existence of poor people

[@arcanelizard4646]

I like to imagine that as Ryoma is walking through the city, he thinks back on the battle he just had and thinks to himself "you know, those 45 ruffians back there might be dead, but at least they aren't poor anymore. I did a good deed today"

[@EggLemonSoup]

A role model for us all

[@Cerbleur07]

*Ryoma walks to a store at Nohr* Shopkeeper: welcome sire, how I may help you today? Ryoma: my goodness, you know English.

[@munchlacks2900]

Ryoma is that one image about cutting homeless people in half by 2025

[@ezerox7778]

Ryoma be like: SMELLS LIKE BROKE IN HERE

[@purpleecho1714]

Corrin after this chapter: Ryoma what did we learn about Nohrians Ryoma: They're people now!

[@Fallendown-pq1ot]

Imagine marrying Shura and Ryoma is like: Wil your son Inherit the poverty?

[@maverick5169]

Reminder that this is the guy who will gladly let Elise die of a slow, painful death from illness until we surrender to him in the Nohr route. Not so surprising now uh?

[@M0bileSprout]

"I do see some poverty" is the most Zuckerberg ass sentence I've ever heard

[@TheElectroZapper]

1:30 "New York policies like this statement"

[@TheOriginalLokisam]

Ryoma isn't about that casual racism. He clearly prefers ranked, competitive racism. And who is going to stop him from the safety of his tank?

[@borjaarellano9966]

Shinon that guy is the king of ranked competitive racism,no way Ryoma can outhrone him

[@TheOriginalLokisam]

@@borjaarellano9966 Shinon wasn't even the most racist dude in his own game. He does not want the smoke with Ryoma.

[@minecat_]

i love the idea of Ryoma rolling through the streets with his stupid tank during that scene

[@damianiscringe1082]

Ronald was the victim of a driveby

[@EggLemonSoup]

Honestly it was like four of em

[@damianiscringe1082]

@@EggLemonSoup he got hit by 4 drivebys it took a tank to kill him

[@joshuabergman3292]

Ryoma: wait, Beggars are poor? Begga: *pulls out bazooka* always have been

[@screamingjello9710]

I love how Ronald is a verb now

[@PriestOfTheHelix]

God, it's so satisfying to see people slowly replay fates in full and realize just how much of a MASSIVE asshole Ryoma is. It doesn't matter which route you take, Ryoma is just a shithead.

[@EggLemonSoup]

Lmao did people not know this right away? Half the plot of BR revolves around Ryoma, the current heir to the throne, running away to help start a rebellion in Nohr immediately after Mikoto's death. He abandons his family instantly, then they risk their lives searching for him and he never even gets pressed for it. Absolute insanity plot

[@TheAxeLordOfFire]

I adore FE Fates, and I like to think that it's intentional that the quote-unquote "good guys" are such massive assholes. But yeah, is anyone really surprised at Ryoma being kind of a terrible person? The man literally withhold's Elise's medicine for a hostage situation! He's not a good person! Best part is, this is completely in-character for the samurai in the feudal period. They were massive assholes to each other, so this is actually pretty in-character of historical samurai.

[@PriestOfTheHelix]

Okay to elaborate a bit on this since its funny, lets ignore Birthright Ryoma for a minute and talk about the "master manipulator" of conquest. Ryoma is the only one of the Hoshidan siblings who has read the "you can fuck your siblings letter" that Mikoto sent. He knows Corrin is not related to him in the slightest and yet he fights the hardest to force them to return on the conquest route, going so far as to blackmail them with Elise's life at one point. Imagine being Corrin for a second and making the tough choice of choosing between the family that raised you and cares about you and the family you actually belong to, and after a tough decision you decide to go birthright. You side with your blood relatives dispite not having any emotional connection to them whatsoever. Only later you find out that your eldest brother had a secret letter saying that you aren't actually related to him or your birthright family at all, and you just completely alienated people who actually loved you for them. Fates' bad writing unintentionally makes Ryoma the biggest asshole on the face of the planet and its so funny.

[@emblemblade9245]

Ryoma’s…everything is proof that Conquest Corrin did absolutely nothing wrong. In this essay I will

[@nehmann674]

When Fates actually bothers to do some Worldbuilding, it can be somewhat interesting, the "this is the true heart of Nohr" scene is my favourite in the game, because it is the only time Nohr isn't shown to be pure evil, outside of supports, it also shows how little the Hoshidans actually know about Nohr and although probably not on purpose teaches us that Ryoma is oblivious to the issues Hoshido has (wich I unterstand, I too don't read Fates supports).

[@EggLemonSoup]

In a vacuum it's a fine scene (outside of Ryoma's ignorance being so overplayed that it becomes absurd) but you can say that about the entire BR story tbh. There are plenty of good, independent moments, but the plot can't keep its own attention. It just jumps from scene to unrelated scene with no concern for set-up and payoff. Like a solid half of the story ideas in Fates, it WOULD be good - if they actually earned the moment at all

[@lagspike7763]

Least shitshow-y birthright chapter

[@FoxySteve7777]

I actually feel like this the scene that most validates the Hoshidan side. Ryoma seems to care a lot more about Nohr's less fortunate than anyone on Nohr's side. Even Niles and Beruka, absolute victims of Nohrian poverty are too damaged by their upbringings and sheltered by their current positions to do anything about it. I feel like wvery discussion of this game's story starts with story bad and then backfills every decision as "this thing is good in vacuum but clearly a mistake" as opposed to, ya know, just an interesting thing the story does.

[@EggLemonSoup]

Apologies for this essay but- The highlight might not paint it in the best light, but I actually have been generally trying to take a more positive and charitable perspective throughout this read of the story. I understand what you mean by the "backfill" problem, but "backfilling" is also sorta part of how literary analysis works. The art invokes an emotional response, then we analyze, reflect, and discuss with others to understand it on a deeper level. That isn't the only way of course, and that's also not to say that it's impossible for people to make malicious, unfair, and/or willfully ignorant analyses and conclusions about a piece of art - that happens all the time too, and I agree that Fates falls victim to it often. That said, I don't think it's wrong or unfair to point out the ways in which a story undermines itself, and I think "Good in a vacuum, but..." is a perfectly valid way to critique one element of a given story. We can do both - we can appreciate an idea while grieving for its poor execution or missed potential at the same time. Whether the net value of an idea plus its execution is negative or positive is going to be highly subjective, but a story can still only be read in context. You can't just skip that contextual evaluation altogether, and I think this scene is a pretty good example of that. Ryoma does not hesitate before suggesting foreign aid to the current enemy, which is a nice character moment! But the problems with it are unavoidable, requiring no extra legwork or ill intent to find them off-putting and distracting. The depths of Ryoma's sheer ignorance about the state of Nohr easily crosses into absurdity, especially considering he's supposedly been taking part in the Cheve rebellion during the entire first half of the game. Its made even worse by clunky dialogue like "not all Nohrians" which really could not sound worse for him. I don't think I'm being particularly uncharitable when I find it difficult to appreciate a nice character moment that's wrapped in such a ridiculous setup and presentation. And you're right that the moment DOES do a lot of work to validate the Hoshidan army, in a moralistic sense at least, but I don't think that's a necessary ingredient to a compelling narrative. Corrin already has sufficient personal motivations for trying to avenge his mother, with good reason to see Garon as a threat to both his Nohrian and Hoshidan siblings. At best, I think this newfound savior complex is not terrible but ultimately unnecessary. At worst, I think it detracts from the story's potential for moral complexity. With it, Birthright Corrin is simply correct about everything, answers no difficult questions, and makes no sacrifices. Of course, moral complexity isn't vital for a given story to work, so I wouldn't penalize Birthright too harshly for its black and white world, but I find it disappointing regardless.

[@FoxySteve7777]

@@EggLemonSoup I actually appreciate the detail of the response. I agree that "backfill" can be a valid examination technique. However, it can equally be easily abused. I don't like thing a. Thing a includes element b. Element b is therefore bad... even though I've acknowledged it is interesting and have not sufficiently explained why it doesn't fit. I'm always suspect of statements like that because it just feels like a vibes argument hiding behind a facade of analysis at times. I don't like a thing because I find it boring is a valid argument. But it isn't the same as "this thing is poorly done", not by itself anyway. For it being unbelievable, nah not really. I don't think Ryoma is particularly concerned with how the average Nohrian is living in his day to day stuff. He sides with Cheve rebels and helps them fend off attacks from the Nohrian army. The Intel and efforts are about defeating Nohr's army. He only learns otherwise while literally walking through their capital in a hidden area he would otherwise never see. I think the lack of concern for the people of Nohr is one of the most compelling aspects of the story. Because every mention of doing things "for Nohr" is very focused on Nohr the state. Which makes sense for an imperialistic, expansionist empire. The story isn't trying to add moral complexity here. It's just drawing an important line that is needed to undercut Xander's philosophy and drive home the tragedy that Elise is one of the people who will pay for Nohr's sins. Which I really like because Xander feels like the most fleshed out character on the birthright route. Ryoma is offhandedly cutting down the only goof argument Nohr has. That is "needs those resources" but it's problem isn't that it can't feed itself (though it is less bountiful than neighbours), its that it has a decadent corrupt ruling class who live in absurd opulence. It's kind of important to fitting together that aspect of the narrative.

[@EggLemonSoup]

Agree strongly with that first point - there's a huge difference between finding something uninteresting, and trying to claim that it doesn't "work" or is poorly done in general, and I wish people would make that distinction more often. So there's two big points here that would address my criticisms. I do kinda like both, but I struggle to see how they can coexist: 1. Ryoma's culture shock is so severe because his involvement in Cheve was very strictly military-focused. He's a leader at war, and he doesn't get much of an opportunity to learn about the common Nohrian's life. 2. This whole plot point serves to highlight a philosophical contrast, where Nohr is focused on the state and Hoshido on the people. Overall I really do like the sound of your interpretation, but I think the combination of very clunky dialogue and the place of this moment in the story prevents me from being able to take it too seriously. If Ryoma is meant to represent such a different ideology, one that focuses on the people before the state, I find it really hard to buy into just how intense his surprise is at the state of Nohr. His shock gives him such a similar "ivory tower" impression to the Nohrian royalty, and I struggle to believe the depths of his compassion as a leader when he seems to only now be considering that Nohrians might be people too for the first time. Maybe I'm honing in too much on finer details of the dialogue, but I really think his culture shock is overplayed and his lesson learned is just WAY too shallow. Something about Hoshido's invasion of Nohr, even if it is technically a counterattack in self-defense, just gives such awkward and intense colonial vibes - so adding a savior complex feels borderline malicious, especially when they only discover this new secondary motivation so deep into enemy territory. Even if they didn't start the war, we're still talking about the Haves invading the Have-Nots here, so its a precarious subject matter generally speaking. If Ryoma is meant to contrast imperial ideology, it's an impressively bad look to imply that he has never in his life spared a thought for the average person outside of his country's borders. For this angle to work, I think Ryoma and the Hoshidan's compassion had to be dialed up to an 11, but as it is I feel like it barely registers on the scale. So I could buy into Ryoma's culture shock, and I could buy into the wider philosophical themes, but I think they actively step on each other's toes and create some uncomfortable undertones. If that's meant to be the point, then I think it COULD work, but in that case then I'd say it's just terribly undersold and we might be doing too much "writing for the writers" at that point. I admit that I'm sorta forming this opinion as I go, because you have gotten me to think about an angle that I hadn't before so I might need to sit with it for a while and maybe my mind will change, but even if I like the ideas, I'm really just not sure if the groundwork is actually there *in the text* for all of this. I do have to say though that as I'm engaging with this more, I'm starting to like the take that Elise and Xander's deaths are a sort of condemnation of the Nohrian philosophy and not just senseless tragedy for tragedy's sake like I used to think. I don't know if I'm completely sold on it, but I like the sound of it and it's something I'll have to think about some more. It does add some legitimately interesting narrative weight to the line "I will defend my homeland" which has been memed into absurdity at this point.

[@FoxySteve7777]

@@EggLemonSoup I can admit it's a small point coming quite late in the game. I could definitely see someone bouncing off it and arguing it makes Ryoma look out of touch. I mean, all things equal, I'd argue he must be out of touch just based on title. I don't think any prince or king ever really understands poverty but thats a tangent. I think Ryoma sort of fits into the same position as a Chrom or Roy: they don't truly understand what it is to starve but can empathise and are open to learning. While I think Corrin, as the child of two worlds archetype, is meant to be the one prioritising all people above all else, I think Ryoma would be more people focused towards Hoshidans. I would not argue Ryoma has the people of Nohr first in his heart. Nohr is just the other side that killed his dad, stole his sibling and wants to grind his nation underfoot. This is a reminder of the next step. Now Corrin has said the Nohrian royals other than Garon are good and reasonable. I think the back half of birthright shows Ryoma adjusting and trying to plan what comes next. I'm not sure how much is faith in Corrin/people and how much is the subtext of "if decapitating the leadership doesn't work, we are not winning a full on war". The colonial point I can see but I don't think it's as big an issue here. The Hoshidans don't really talk much about holding Nohr. They've also rallied most of their support from other territories by promising their independence. I think the food offering is more in the context of changing Hoshido and Nohr's dynamic rather than a white horse savior implication. Though again, as you point out, they are riding into another country to kill their leader and force them to change. So there's something there.

[@EggLemonSoup]

Whoops sorry I couldn't find the time to continue this before. Thanks for writing back about all this in depth though, I really do appreciate any opportunity to think about this stuff more deeply. I agree that the colonial angle isn't technically a big problem in any literal sense because the writers probably intended for the reader to take Ryoma at his word, but I personally struggle to get over the general feeling the dialogue gives me in that direction. It's just in issue of thematic undertones to me. I see your point though about Corrin's growing influence on Ryoma, though I don't think there's nearly enough emphasis on that in the actual text - especially because we don't get enough of the opposite. What you said about how Ryoma sees Nohr is a perfectly reasonable reading, and I would bet on it being the author's intentions too, but I think the story desperately needs him to say it out loud, early and often, for it to work. Ryoma spends very little time actually hating Nohrians on-screen before the big reveal that's supposed to change his heart. I think that sums up a lot of my issues with BR's writing. It just really sucks at building sturdy foundations for its ideas, almost like its just too eager to get to the payoff. I like your reading, and I'm also willing to believe that it lines up well with the authorial intent, but idk if I can get fully on board. I feel like there's a lot of "technically true" stuff where the writers just don't put the necessary time and weight on critical details. We can make a lot of very reasonable assumptions, but they're still assumptions, and I don't like when a story feels like its being held together by good faith. Idk if I can keep up a back and forth here any longer, but I'd be down to talk about it more casually in the discord if you want

[@thecakest]

I am so glad this stream happened, exceptional work

[@EggLemonSoup]

Hi! I'm streaming this series every Wednesday night at 7 EST! It's a silly autobattle-every-other-turn challenge run and its by far the most fun I've had in Birthright. Also it's torture Come hang out! kzbin.info/www/bejne/bXfCm4x9lMmKl9k

[@TheAxeLordOfFire]

I adore FE Fates, and I like to think that it's intentional that the quote-unquote "good guys" are such massive assholes. But yeah, is anyone really surprised at Ryoma being kind of a terrible person? The man literally withhold's Elise's medicine for a hostage situation! He's not a good person! Best part is, this is completely in-character for the samurai in the feudal period. They were massive assholes to each other, so this is actually pretty in-character of historical samurai.