S&W 5943 vs. New York LEO Qualification

[@thenumismaticminute4619]

Thank you for taking the time to make this series. I always enjoy your content. Keep on keepin’ on!

[@hrfunk]

The Numismatic Minute will do. Thanks for watching!

[@Graydog-sx6le]

Good shooting as always. Those older S&W semiautomatics were a work horse and a beast. They didn’t get the love they deserved. I was going to work for an agency that was armed with the same smith. It felt good in the hand and just the right weight and ergos. Thanks again for good content.

[@hrfunk]

You're welcome. Thanks for watching!

[@pjoseph4384]

NYPD or NY State Police? If it's NYPD, please don't forget to incorporate the miserable 12 pound trigger pull, to really make the test a challenge. Let's see, high stress + accurate deadly force needed now to stop the immediate threat + possible bystanders in a crowded city + a ridiculously heavy trigger pull = not too good. From a retired LEO from that very department. Thanks for an excellent series.

[@hrfunk]

Ha! You're welcome. As I understand it, there is a lot of deviation in NY pertaining to what course is used by which agency. This one came to me from two different sources in NY, so I decided to use it.

[@pjoseph4384]

@@hrfunkLooking forward to seeing your shoot. NY is a big state, mostly rural, woodland, lakes and hilly, and quite beautiful outside the morass that is NYC post-Giuliani style law enforcement. The NYPD course of fire used to be 2 from 25 yds, then from 15 yds, 7 yds and 3 yds, forgot how many from each, 50 rounds for a total of 100 pts possible. 2 from 25 yds with that infamous trigger immediately knocked down the score of many a shooter.

[@hrfunk]

Nope, I’ll be using 16-rounders that are reserved for the nobility.

[@pjoseph4384]

@@hrfunk Interesting interpretation. Back in the day, we were trained and then demonstrated on the requalification course of fire a bladed stance and shooting from a modified weaver, not the modern isosceles stance . Experienced LEOs will understand why the bladed stance is excellent at close quarters when near an individual, and why the modified weaver has its place in close quarters/confined areas... 'Nuf said... The NY course of fire you demonstrated was not so very different from the NYPD course of fire in days of yore (although strong side/weak side one handed shooting with tactical reloads using the 'uninjured/unwounded hand' alone was part of the test, as well as certain defensive shooting techniques from the 3 yd line, again 'nuf said...) The course of fire clearly was as you suggest geared for mass production with large numbers of cops on the firing lines (with 38,000 or so cops each having to requalify every six months plus academy recruits back then - a hell of a management job) Not an optimum setup for precision training. Nevertheless, some of us could consistently hit the side of a barn - of which there are probably very few in NYC - and some of us could even consistently hit a range target-sized one. Thanks for sharing these qual courses. Really nice shooting with the S&W. And to all of you brother officers out there, retired or active, stay safe.

[@darbovision2672]

NY trigger was the 1st thing I thought of!

[@ShaneABaker]

Ive tried to find this video for the past few days, and it has managed to hide itself very well in KZbin. Ive watched a lot of these videos a few times, as I love seeing how different states do their qualification. I've worked as a Corrections Officer for my County Sheriff's Office for about 20 months or so, and hqve fired this qualification a lot, as we did it about 6 or 7 times during the Academy, as well as on my own, and just most recently, to re-qualify on it. It's meant to be a very easy course to pass, as a lot of people I know dont shoot a whole lot on their own time. However, I think it is a decent challenge to shoot it rapidly, and try and score the highest you can. Also, we do it in the exact reverse order, starting at 25 yards and then working our way in to 3. Thanks for the awesome video, HR!

[@hrfunk]

My pleasure. Thanks for watching and stay safe.

[@robertburns9590]

I found a doc from Erie Community College that also includes courses of fire that are a little more challenging. They have time limits, strong & weak hand, standing & kneeling. It has different CoFs for different magazine capacities, which I found interesting. I can't provide a URL, but if you Google for "App & NYS Min Qual 25y to 5y 2018" it should be the first result. I'm really enjoying the series. Thanks for all the hard work.

[@hrfunk]

Robert Burns you’re welcome. Thanks for the info!

[@ThePongo357]

Enjoying seeing how it's done all over. Thanks for the series.

[@hrfunk]

You’re welcome. Thanks for watching!

[@roykiefer7713]

HR, excellent video, thank you. A New York factoid that may interest you: For may years, but this is a long time ago, the New York State Police’s issue sidearm was chambered in .45 Colt. I believe it was a Colt New Service model with a 5.5 inch barrel. This revolver, I suspect, reflects the geographic diversity of NY; huge cities and urban areas certainly, but also great, scarcely populated expanses of forests, mountains, and open fields.

[@hrfunk]

I really like the State of New York. The state government, on the other hand, needs as much revision as the firearms qualification I demonstrated. I feel bad for firearms owners living there.

[@roykiefer7713]

hrfunk: Thanks, HR. I grew up in Suffolk County, NY, and lived there until I went to college in Ohio and then into the service during the Vietnam War (where I remained for 20 years). And I really liked the town - and especially its people and its values- where I grew up. BUT, even back then (and I left in the mid-1960’s) the State had a significant problem: The non-big city areas of the state were very large in comparison to New York City, Buffalo, etc, however the money and the power resided principally in the NYC metropolitan area. I know other states (including Ohio) are not too demographically dissimilar, but it seems to me - and I am darn ignorant - that Ohio has been able to retain a more-reasonable legal and financial balance between the desires of the urban centers and the legitimate needs of the towns, villages and truly rural areas. For example, and as you suggested, in NY handgun policies are very restrictive, whereas in Ohio a better balancer appears to me (and, again, I am ignorant in such matters) to have been maintained. Well, enough of political philosophy. I am GREATLY enjoying your videos. THANK YOU!

[@hrfunk]

@@roykiefer7713 You're welcome, and thanks for watching. Right now, Ohio is about a 50/50 split in terms of big city liberal legislators their rural conservative counterparts. It would not take much to sway things to the left. So far, though, we are holding on.

[@tomahawk1911]

Thanks for the video, Chief. Brought back memories. That pistol qual was about exactly the one armed security took back in1995 here in Oklahoma. Had to shoot it with a.38 special revolver, 4” barrel or longer. Those who passed could come back to shoot the “semiautomatic transitional” they called it then. A retired highway patrolman was our instructor, he added some man on man shoot off drills on some pepper poppers that were a lot of fun. And a 40 yard run up a little hill to reload and go for a pepper popper about 75 yards down range, from cover. Cover was a 4’ high stack of landscaping timbers.

[@hrfunk]

You’re welcome Thomas! Thanks for watching!

[@HUBABUBA-il8fn]

As with a minimum State Standard local training can vary as long as it incorporates at least the minimum. Now the last time I had to qualify was 21 years ago in a Large Suburban County Dept in NY. Our course was 60 Rounds., incorporated barricade (strong side/weak side) from 25 Yards. A 1 or 2 yard draw from holster and shoot as soon as you cleared leather one handed from waist level, body armor drill 2 to body, one to head.

[@hrfunk]

That sounds like a pretty good course. I hope it's still being used. As I mentioned in the video, I received the one I demonstrated from two different sources. I suspect, unfortunately, it used by more than one agency.

[@talkingrock7011]

There’s quite a few things I could say about NY and the course but I will say that’s a great shooting S&W thanks HR

[@hrfunk]

You’re welcome. Thanks for watching!

[@mikedillon6233]

Once again that was really nice shooting. It's funny about those old pistols, I enjoy seeing them and they really were work horses! Also, looks like to me that you remembered right away how that pistol worked and what you needed to do. The way you ran that pistol reminded me of a hand and glove!

[@hrfunk]

That pistol and I are old friends. I carried one just like it from late 1991 until early 2000. During that time, I launched a LOT of bullets from it. Thanks for watching!

[@boostimalaka1]

My Academy and requal was done by a major county Police Agency. Start From the 1 -2 yard line. Two to the body from the draw and step back with a two hand grip with one to the head. It was timed in 3 seconds for that. The targets were a Q target and run by a synchronized target system. When the time was up the target was turned. It was a great time. Once a year we qualified. The 25 yard was a barricade drill. Strong and Weak side. The timer was precise. You couldn’t cheat with a P.O. Watching you. They knew exactly the amount of rounds fired. I achieved Distinguished Pistol Expert scoring 300. It was good to wear that above my shield. It definitely got noticed by civilians and bad guys.

[@hrfunk]

Good job! It's always nice to have something on your uniform to evince your superior performance. Thanks for watching!

[@logicaredux5205]

Your shooting was great! One wonders though if there will be any LEO’s to qualify in New York very soon.

[@dalekidd420]

Given the charlie-foxtrot police shooting that took place there the other day, a full reboot for NYPD might not be such a bad idea. If you haven't seen that dumpster fire yet, Donut Operator has it on his channel.

[@logicaredux5205]

Dale Kidd - Sorry Dale. I’m not sure to what you are referring. Who is Donut Operator?

[@hrfunk]

There is already a national shortage of new recruits coming into law enforcement. With every new negative report that comes out, I suspect the shortage become greater.

[@logicaredux5205]

hrfunk - It’s madness. If they take away police then civil society becomes impossible. It will become every man for himself and the law of the jungle.

[@eljayess]

I love those old s&w pistols. I have a 5906 , hopefully will have more soon .

[@eljayess]

@Feral Man I have no idea what that means .

[@eljayess]

Oh, God

[@hrfunk]

I hope you find another good one to keep that 5906 company.

[@hrfunk]

@Feral Man As a law enforcement officer, the first thing I have to tell you is not to violate any of your local laws. Regarding the Sig 365, it is an easy pistol to carry due to its size. I have not shot one so I can't comment on how it performs. Most of what I have seen/read about them seems positive now that Sig has improved the striker assembly.

[@chrischiampo7647]

Reminder Set 😀

[@rider547]

I agree, not a very challenging course. I didn’t take you long to get a better release on that holster. Good job as always! Thanks for the video!

[@hrfunk]

Thank you!

[@douglask7665]

Great News Sir. Looking forward to it. Will you be using your newly acquired S&W 5943 SSV or the Standard Issue S&W 5943. Guess I’ll have to wait and see for myself. I hope you enjoyed this Course of Fire. D. 👍🇺🇸

[@hrfunk]

Yep, my SSV got the nod. I hope you enjoy seeing it.

[@Stoney_AKA_James]

I agree, that COF is way too simplistic! As a firearms instructor, this is a very interesting series!

[@hrfunk]

Thanks James. I'm glad you like the series!

[@ericalger5003]

I noticed that during a reload you manipulate the slide and not use the slide release button. Is that how you were trained or is that just your preferred method? I use the slide release button. Are there advantages to either method or is it better to find a method that works for you and stick with it?

[@mdd1963]

That method is taught as a gross motor skill, and in times of stress, one will never forget where the slide stop/release is located on the particular pistol one is using. (Look at a Sig P226 slide release vs. the S&W pistol in question, for instance...)

[@hrfunk]

That was both the way I was trained and my preferred technique.

[@granddad-mv5ef]

Once again while watching I thought you would benefit greatly from having a production assistant. Seriously, if I lived closer, you would have me as a volunteer. However, that takes nothing away from your videos! I have watched some of them several times, using them as a reference.

[@hrfunk]

Thank you!

[@SnipeU696]

Thank you.

[@SnipeU696]

And not just this post. But a vast majority of your videos are vary educational.

[@paulscountry456]

Some of those Smiths had adjustable sights that had metal ears protecting the rear sight from impacts, i thought that was a great design.Metal frame duty guns are better than polymer,limp wristing failures are common in defensive situations with glocks and other polymers.

[@hrfunk]

As I recall, people could still manage to "limp-wrist" the metal frame pistols if they tried hard enough. When I used to test pistols for my former agency, one of the things I would do is hold the pistol as loosely as I could (without having it fly out of my hand under recoil) and fire it. As I recall, the 5943 had no problems functioning when I performed that test.

[@paulscountry456]

@@hrfunk check out the video of a Eaton County female Deputy being attacked by a man with two knives, you can see she is moving backward and shooting with one hand as he closes in and she limp wristed the polymer gun and it failed to feed but luckily she cleared it rapidly and dispatched him,this happens all the time with polymers.

[@martyinthecounty]

I use same holster for my glock 10mm. Leather level 3. Love it though. Thank you great vid .

[@hrfunk]

It takes some practice, but the security is great.

[@neuvocastezero1838]

Excellent performance with the DA only! Like shooting a revolver with higher capacity.

[@hrfunk]

Yep. It’s a great pistol.

[@neuvocastezero1838]

@@hrfunk I was complimenting your accuracy more than the pistol, but yeah, I'm sure it's great.

[@hrfunk]

Thank you!

[@Dan1987432]

Great video! I have a 5946 and was wondering... I'm not bothered by DAO - but a lighter pull, even just a few pounds would be nice. Do you have any recommendations for spring replacements or? 🔫

[@hrfunk]

You might check Wolffe Springs, they might have some options for you.

[@Dan1987432]

@@hrfunk Thanks! They do, they have several I'm just not too sure which to choose.

[@hrfunk]

@@Dan1987432 I always tend to stick with the factory weight springs. They are not the lightest, but they are what the pistol was designed to use and they should be the most reliable when it comes to performance.

[@Dan1987432]

@@hrfunk I tend to agree, I'll probably stick with 'em. On an unrelated note - I'm in Medina and am COMPLETELY snowed in. How 'bout you?! lol!!

[@hrfunk]

@@Dan1987432 We got our share here. I was out driving earlier. The roads are passable with my Jeep, but it’s slow going.

[@vantabercrombie8683]

I have to admit that I'm a bit disappointed in their course of fire. Your 5943 suits you well Howard, that's some fine shooting. Good video.

[@hrfunk]

Thanks Vant! I was a bit underwhelmed with this course too.

[@TheGunfighter45acp]

A tough crowd showed up to comment today... Nonetheless, an outstanding job as usual and that good ol' S&W looks and performs great!

[@hrfunk]

Thank you!

[@Sam-et3bv]

Excellent video.

[@hrfunk]

Thank you!

[@talkingrock7011]

Waiting for some M1A footage HR summer is fading away

[@hrfunk]

Did you see the SOCOM16 videos I recorded a couple of months ago?

[@talkingrock7011]

I did just thought the super match might make a appearance

[@tomtruesdale6901]

HR great video and I agree with you that course of fire is pretty weak. I wonder if it is for Corrections Officers just to keep the lawyers happy? Last time I saw Texas Department of Criminal Justice folks qual it was kinda scary. Not speaking bad about the people but the training was bad. When I ran the range for my agency we tried to add in some "fun run and gun" stuff whenever we got. Plus we had a simunition house we could work in

[@hrfunk]

Thanks Tom. I'm sure a lot of departments/instructors in New York go far over and above this qualification course. The thing that scares me is those who do not.

[@danc.3899]

I worked for two NY departments for a total of 32+ years; as a sr. firearms instructor for much of that. I trained with lots of other depts - just about every department had their own PQC, and this does't appear familiar at all. This appears to be a course for those more for 90 years old.

[@hrfunk]

Thanks Dan. As I recall, this was sent to me by an instructor who also echoed your comment regarding every department having their own course. It seems to me this was used in an Academy, but I don't remember for sure. I could try to find the paperwork if you're interested.

[@danc.3899]

@@hrfunk It's interesting. Thanks. I've seen good, bad and ugly programs within the state - and country - as you are illustrating. Keep up the good work!

[@sgtmajtrapp3391]

Probably like some, academy level shooting/qualification with agency standards being a lot more stringent, saw the Florida qualification and can attest to far greater agency requirements/ standards. Always interesting and informative with different firearms highlighted. Never been a fan of THE DAO in a self loading pistol. Shot well!

[@hrfunk]

Thanks! I’m glad you liked it. Also, I know a lot of agencies exceed the minimum state requirements.

[@thespankdmonkey]

It almost seemed like a course to pass as many officers as possible through the system. Do not want to sound critical. I will say my basic academy that I paid for many years ago at a community college here in Nevada was a lot tougher than that. When I was hired on with the Highway Patrol we had to qualify withe several different range tests. Some involving handgun, some handgun and shotgun some just shotgun numerous times a year. Good times! We always had fun burning up some ammo! And it does seem you are familiar with that pistol. Nice shooting sir!

[@hrfunk]

Thank you! That pistol and I are old friends.

[@stephendettweiler746]

Thanks for the Video. You shot well!

[@hrfunk]

Thanks Steve!

[@appalachianstillhunter6534]

I also thought it was much too easy when I did it. Anything in the scoring rings counted, but 100% is the reccomended passing score.

[@hrfunk]

Thanks for the additional info!

[@jonathanbeckers1546]

You should do a LEO qualification with a single action revolver. My personal favorite is the Ruger Blackhawk in 41 Mag

[@hrfunk]

See if you like this one: Cap & Ball Revolver vs. Modern Handgun Qualification Course

[@hrfunk]

Oops! Here’s the link: kzbin.info/www/bejne/rZ6ucomrZpmKjZI

[@onpsxmember]

Whoever constructed that timer had a tough controller breathing down their neck or it's defective. Sounds like the cheapest piezo buzzer they could find. Interesting video, thank you.

[@hrfunk]

Ha, ha! It was very faint in some of the scenes, so I tried to enhance it during my editing. I admit the results were less than stunning.

[@onpsxmember]

@@hrfunk Muahaha. Gold. It took me right back to building small test rigs for a work project. I'll never forget this sound...ceramic piezo buzzer. Did you lengthen the sound or raised the level with a pitch shift?

[@hrfunk]

onpsxmember Raised the volume, but that seemed to distort the pitch.

[@NAFmunchausen]

Random curiosity question: ever drill with dump pouches just to up the difficulty level?

[@hrfunk]

No, I’ve never worked with them. assuming one didn’t manage to dump the fresh ammo into the ground, it would make reloads very slow.

[@LYLEWOLD]

great shooting HR. if this was one you carried, would you adjust the holster? this one seemed to give you a little more trouble than others. also seemed to ride slightly back of 3 o'clock more than i'd seen any of your other guns.

[@hrfunk]

Yes, if this was my carry rig, I would make some adjustments to it.

[@Jack102498]

That Safariland 070 holster works better if you bring it a little more forward.

[@hrfunk]

I wore one for several years. I was a little out of practice with it, but I thought it came back pretty well by the end of the video.

[@Jack102498]

@@hrfunk Yep, you definitely were smooth and fast after the first bobble.

[@sgthwwy007]

have you done the ICE Course? will look for it.

[@hrfunk]

I haven't done any federal agency courses yet. I may do some after I finish the state courses.

[@18wheeler77]

I really hope many agencies will see your videos for their state and they can better their qualification requirements. Great video as always. I do wonder what holster you were using, because I noticed a couple of hangups.

[@hrfunk]

One of my goals with this series is for people in the various states to consider what their particular course requires and to see how those requirements stack up against those of other states. I hope that where revision is prudent, it takes place. Regarding the holster, it's an older Safariland 070. I'm a little out of practice with it, but I think I was doing pretty well by the end of the video. Thanks for watching!

[@terrytownsend8462]

Well you look like your keeping the weight off. Good for you. Im about to give it a try. Im heavier than i have ever been.

[@hrfunk]

Good luck!

[@tribesecurity928]

Hey NY what is up with your incredibly long time limits or having no time limits at all?

[@apbiggins8mm]

Didn't smith and wesson make a 10mm at one point

[@dalekidd420]

Yes, they did. The Model 1006 was designed and built for the FBI following the disastrous 1986 Miami shootout. However, the pistol was soon found to be too large and too powerful for many smaller agents, particularly females. The FBI ended up switching to lower-powered ammunition for the pistol (contemptuously referred to as the "10mm Fed Lite" load by serious shooters). This in turn led rather quickly to S&W's development of the .40 S&W pistols and cartridge, which of course went on to become the gold standard in American law enforcement for almost two decades.

[@hrfunk]

Quick clarification Dale, it was actually the 1076 that was developed for the FBI. The full-size 1006 came a little later.

[@3Pillers]

Yes I enjoyed it.

[@hrfunk]

Good!

[@charlesphillips5906]

That holster looks like a pain.

[@hrfunk]

It just needed to get used to it again. It's been quite a few years since I used one.

[@Big-hg5zf]

You seem to shoot that 5943 better than your other guns, including the S&W M&P 9PC. Do you ever think about going back to the 5943?

[@hrfunk]

Big10 That 5943 and I are old friends, but I think I’ll stick with my M&P for now (but that may be changing soon!)

[@frankbutta9344]

How’d you like to be in a crowded NYC shooting situation? 😳 Im going to have to google NYPD yearly shooting incidents. Thanks for Sharing, Chief! 👍👍👍👍🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸

[@hrfunk]

You’re welcome!

[@waxfactory7582]

I seen you naturally go to rack the slide on the first reload. Muscle memory burned in just happens

[@hrfunk]

Ha, yep!

[@gizmocarr3093]

General qualification weapons courses are likely designed for every officer in the unit. If they were to demanding or difficult more officers would fail and require further instruction. This seems more likely a duty weapon familiarizing course than anything. There are numerous departments more concerned with filling out reports and paperwork more important than shooting skills. Most police officers have so much to do with the complicated duties of everyday to do lists; shooting skills get pushed to the back of the list of priorities. Meter Maids and traffic enforcement officers just don’t get the training time special weapons units get. There are officers in my small town that couldn’t chase you two blocks on foot and not be out of breath. They call for backup for every traffic violation. The last shots fired in my town were from the police station from one of them playing Quick Draw McGraw. This certainly is not an isolated occurrence in just my town. Likely it is not going to change either any time soon. Cutting funds for State Troopers, City law enforcement officers and special crime units makes no sense. It has to be the dumbest thing ever done in the history of law enforcement. Anyone who votes for that needs a psychological evaluation; because their crazy. My town police might have things that they don’t need and wasted money on. But, New York City and Washington DC need all the APC vehicles and water cannons they want. Let them puppies roll around on patrol after dark; they put out fires and give free ear waxings at the same time free of charge.

[@hrfunk]

Ha, ha! U understand what you're saying Gizmo. In my opinion all officers, regardless of assignment, should possess a certain level of proficiency with their firearm(s). Granted, I would not expect a Detective to have the same skills as a SWAT operator, but the course I demonstrated in this video is a pretty low bar for anyone. If I were an instructor for an agency that required this qualification course, I would come up with additional training to better prepare my officers for the realities of an armed encounter. Thanks for watching!

[@scottdebruin3167]

Can't wait. Pretty soon no one will be willing to a a LEO

[@hrfunk]

There already has been a drastic decrease in the number of people applying for positions in law enforcement. It’s a little known nationwide crisis.

[@scottdebruin3167]

Re-watched the video. The time limits look like it was designed for a revolver

[@hrfunk]

A lot of these courses harken from that era.

[@jeremymcguire7069]

This is the first qualification course that looks genuinely inadequate for the purpose.

[@hrfunk]

As I mentioned at the end of the video, I think it could benefit from a serious revision.

[@gunsammodrones]

Holster seems like it wants to hold that gun alot…

[@hrfunk]

Yeah, it had been a while since I used that holster and I was out of practice with it..

[@deputyprepper4931]

This course was definitly designed by a politition

[@hrfunk]

I was certainly not designed by someone who was interested in evaluating an officer's ability to survive a gunfight.

[@scottdebruin3167]

Good shooting but it only measures one skill, marksmanship

[@hrfunk]

Thanks, and I agree.

[@DanTheWolfman]

Yeah not so great a qual

[@hrfunk]

I have to agree.

[@alexanderstordeur9434]

This is more for noobs who never picked up a gun before.

[@lonnieporter8566]

Admittedly I haven't seen all of the videos in this series yet but of the ones I HAVE seen, this one is hands down the weakest. Sad.

[@hrfunk]

Our course here in Ohio is nothing to write home about either, but at least all our stages are timed. Thanks for watching!