Sailboat Masts - Carbon or Aluminum?

Outfitting our new sailboat - Distant Shores III. This is a series on equipment and we start by visiting mast-maker Seldén in the UK. We see carbon fibre mast-making in detail in the factory where Seldén Director Steve shows us around.
#seldenmasts
All 130 half hour episodes of the Distant Shores TV show are also available on DVD and download at:
www.distantshores.ca/sailingdvds

[@rcpmac]

"Carbon or Aluminum?" Question not addressed at all.

[@paulhuggins9683]

Fascinating. That was easily one of the best boat equipment videos I've seen on KZbin. Kudos to you and Seldon.

[@7476318]

The equipment videos are great, keep them coming. Thanks for another great video.

[@GPSJayDog22]

Yes, yes, yes. Please make more videos of the build. We love to watch the progress. Thank you for sharing again. Cheers, Jay & Linda

[@DistantShoresTV]

Will do!

[@jonhering5660]

Great and informative video...I would love to see more of them!

[@Blazerade13]

Great video. Fascinating.

[@thearchibaldtuttle]

Very interesting insight into the carbon mast production! Thank you!

[@jasonkoslow4174]

Love these equipment vids.

[@THECARKUS]

Thanks Paul. Very interesting.

[@masterofnone863]

Great video and very informative regarding how carbon masts are made. A better title for this video would be "Sailboat Masts - Making Carbon Masts". Perhaps you can do another video answering the question "Sailboat Masts - Carbon or Aluminium?" with some of your thinking behind it.

[@DistantShoresTV]

Thanks and glad you enjoyed it! We do plan to return to Selden to film our own mast being built... good idea Peter!

[@tomvoorneveld]

Dont forget to keep asking about what bondage / glue they use, for example to connect the various fittings. And indeed.. (self)repair during the trip and UV protection need some tips I suppose ))

[@oceanriccard]

Great video. Keep'em coming please.

[@grantkiba7463]

Really like the build videos! Fascinating.

[@DistantShoresTV]

Thx Grant!

[@bernardowiederhold1533]

Great video about carbon masts. I am learning a lot from Distant Shores.

[@MeanJoeNSGA1]

Great video. I loved all the information.

[@DistantShoresTV]

Thanks Joseph!

[@peterabrahamson3984]

Looking forward to see DS3 when complete. Thanks for a very informative video. Regards, Peter, South Africa.

[@briangdozier]

Brilliant!

[@TonyAnschutz]

VEry much enjoy the gear stuff especially related to your new boats! I never knew that was how they were made!

[@DistantShoresTV]

Thanks ScubaTony! We're also going over to visit again in a few weeks for the Southampton Boat Show and will film some more including the boat build itself!!

[@Frostbbitten]

Love these behind the scenes videos on how things are built. Hopefully you can have lots of access to your new Discovery as it goes together for more videos like this.

[@DistantShoresTV]

Thanks Frost! Yes we plan more videos at Discovery for sure! We're visiting again in a couple of weeks!

[@arevjohnkarabetyan9239]

Really nice video! Very informative. Definitely would love to see more like it!

[@DistantShoresTV]

Will do Arev!

[@xmask321]

Great video

[@AdventuresOnBoatscom]

Yes, Yes!!! More build videos. -johnny

[@nobody46820]

Yes, more videos please.

[@bofty]

I don't have a boat yet but I love the tech behind them, more please! Although I may be a little late....

[@carltonbirds]

Your channel is starting to become more and more interesting, I'm looking forward to your next boat build. You now have a new sub.

[@DistantShoresTV]

Thanks for the sub Gary. Welcome aboard!

[@TrailerYacht]

Hi Paul & Sheryl, Thanks for visiting Selden - it was great to see the processes involved. Carbon seems likely to eventually replace aluminium, and in our world of trailer yachting, carbon has a huge advantage in almost every area except initial outlay - which is still very high here. Easier mast raising & lowering and much less weight aloft make very significant improvements for our small boats. However the UV levels here in Australia are brutal, and long term durability for carbon has been is a problem in the past. Once UV resistance is improved, and economies of scale lower the initial cost, we reckon that carbon will be the standard mast for trailer yachts. We love your videos, and hope to catch up with you on the water one day. Kind regards, Gavin & Amanda

[@DistantShoresTV]

Thanks for the kind words Gavin + Amanda! Definitely weight is a major factor when you have to raise the mast regularly. Similar to our reason for getting carbon downwind poles since they are so much easier to handle. With our last pole we painted it white to reflect the sun after it was 5 years old. Fair winds and hope to see you out there!

[@KeepYourDaydream]

We finally have good enough wifi to catch-up on some vids. Great job. Keep in touch.

[@987946216430]

Great video/episode :) Very cool to see how the carbon fiber is used to create strength where its needed. Cheers from PEI, Bryan

[@PeterM33Mk1]

I would vote for more equipment videos. Specifically, regarding winches.

[@brieneaton8578]

Hello guys . St.Catharines, Ontario here. Been a fan of yours for ever . I had a C&C 25 for three years . Only problem was " two owners " . That don't work. LOL. And , YES , show us as much of the build as you can . Please. You guys are the best.

[@DistantShoresTV]

You're vey kind Brien! Yes we'll do more equipment/build videos!

[@SailBeforeSunset]

Very interesting.

[@billfournier1043]

Thanks for showing how carbon fiber mast are made. Was there another reason you opted for an aluminum mast over CF other than cost? Looking forward to other videos on equipment you choose for DS3. Thanks again.

[@rosemariefusco7410]

We are so excited to see whether you go CBFB or Aluminum!!!!! Our vote is CBFB. Thanks for the posting.

[@BrewdasDM7419]

Must be comforting to get rid of that lightning rod.⚡

[@goboats]

Another great and informative video , thanks we think the carbon fiber is the future for masts. Always look forward to your videos , in a league of your own above the rest :)

[@DistantShoresTV]

Thank goboats. We appreciate the kind words!

[@vincentstouter449]

🤔 This was an excellent video on Carbon Mast Manufacture. 👍 The technology is new however, and presents several uncertainties. The first are heat absorption (black) and UV degradation. 🤔 It seems that both of these issues could be addressed by painting (white or light). The superior strength, rigidity and low weight mean less weight aloft and greater hydraulic stability.👍 My biggest concern however is lightning 🌩 ⚡️strikes. Aluminum masts are great conductors when properly grounded to the sea. 🤔 Carbon itself is very conductive and the spiral weave of the fiber mimics the way lightning spirals along a vertical surface. My concern is with the epoxy. Would lightning ⚡️ striking a carbon mast cause it to explode or catch fire 🔥? What does Selden know about the matter of how their mast will behave if struck? Do the have mitigation strategies? My concerns may be unwarranted, because I notice that Skip Novak, an advocate of “bullet proof design”, chose a carbon rig for his new expedition yacht “Vinson of Antartica”. Nevertheless I’d like to hear Selden address ⚡️ and a carbon rig. Thanks so much for your great channel. we 🙏

[@fernandovina1052]

Enjoyed very much this video. Can you please ask Selden next time about lightning strikes ( carbon vs aluminium) . In addition can you ask them if they are considering using graphene on carbon. It's being used in some bicycle frames. thanks so much

[@DistantShoresTV]

Good questions! I will ask on both counts Fernando.

[@stasiprandalos6929]

I would be keen to know for Distant Shores III to avoid chafe on the sheets, halyards , what are the improvements you have made to the design of the rigging, fittings, in the mast ?? am very interested to know more .

[@edrosenberger6947]

That was a very interesting video.....thank you Paul. If you had an aluminum spar with just enough thickness for a minimum bending load and then add carbon fiber to those areas that required more strength, the spar would be lighter than a AL spar with the thickness needed for a maximum bending load....and no mandrel is required. It would be heavier than an all carbon spar but light than an all AL spar. Perhaps the difference in price would not be great enough warrant a composite spar.

[@DistantShoresTV]

Glad you enjoyed it Ed! Interesting idea too. I wonder if the mix of carbon and aluminum would work in varying temperatures. In the extended interview Steve mentioned that the mandrel was easier to extract since the aluminum contracted when it cooled releasing it from the cured carbon mast ...

[@edrosenberger6947]

I don't know what the coefficient of contraction is on the resin they are using but AL and steel embedded hard points and brackets have been used in epoxy composite aircraft structures for many years. I can hardly wait until your vessel is ready for review.....plus you have sold me on a swinging keel and there aren't many sailboats in the 48 to 57 foot range with that feature, outside of the defunct Southerly brand. I don't care for daggerboards so I would also like a smaller version of swinging keels used on catamarans.

[@goldwing987]

Nice video, do you have to worry about UV damage with carbon?

[@michaellongobardi7725]

Are you going with carbon on the new boat? And yes on more build videos!

[@alextodd5487]

I'll join the consensus asking for more build videos! Specifically, I'd be interested how you chose your electronics package - Garmin vs Raymarine vs B&G vs others

[@DistantShoresTV]

Thanks Alex! Yes we'll do videos on the electronics for sure!

[@mlebied]

+1 on request for videos on electronics. with so many advances in open source software, wi-fi, and device integration (iPad, etc.) would be great to get your thoughts on how to leverage this new technology to reduce the cost of buying custom, proprietary gear.

[@Scout8148]

you will have to pay for it $$$$

[@americandad1301]

Thanks for the video. Like others have said, it would be nice to get a little more comparison between the two materials. Specifically weight difference, life expectancy, benefit of UV coating on carbon for Cruisers like yourselves. Also, for someone that is weight conscious on their boats giant lever arm, would it be okay to use steel standing rigging with a carbon mast? And can the stock aluminum boom be used with the carbon Mast? With the obvious intent on decreasing weight at the highest points. Thanks!

[@DistantShoresTV]

We're making a question list for our next visit! In fact we're doing a Q&A at the Southampton Boatshow - Wednesday 20th September 2017 at 14.00hrs and streamed on Seldén Masts' Facebook page. We'll write down the questions from everyone here as well.

[@skillsonian]

Care to comment on how you size a whisker pole for new gennaker on a new boat (never had one before)?

[@BurakBorhan]

Video is great and yes please for more production videos. It only left me with one question though, carbon or aluminum? What are the pros and cons?? 😳

[@000gjb]

Why have two poles and two jibs for going downwind instead of using One large or one small Tri-radial spinnakers depending on the wind strength? You can build a spinnaker chute on deck to haul the spinnaker into if using a sock is too difficult on your own to pull the spinnaker down in heavy air's and have sail go under the bow.

[@RobertWardJones]

Just curious, how well do carbon mast survive lightning strikes? Are bonding cables run inside the masts to dissipate electrical charge?

[@prof.m.ottozeeejcdecs9998]

Build-Videos! Great idea! Visit equipment manufacturers, and show the way it's done, Also great advertisement for the companies...

[@paulswan1965]

Hey guys, yes please & even better if there like this vid was, very informative.

[@markmoreno7295]

Since the question was left unanswered, what would be the tie breaker for me is if on small craft, say 5 meters or less, can a carbon fiber mast do the work of an aluminium one with less windage, less weight, and a lower COG? I would get one if I could do away with the lateral stays. I also did not hear about luff tracks. I prefer to not have one.

[@martynmorris1390]

As discussed briefly below, it would be very interesting to see some data that shows how much a carbon fibre mast affects the AVS. Obviously there are a lot of other factors but it would I would just like to get a feel for how much of a factor it is? More specifically I was interested on your comment about twin carbon poles, so you can pole out both foresails. We have an Allures 45, cutter rigged and this is something I would like to experiment with. We have an existing Aluminium mast and pole. The thought is to get a shorter (for the staysail) carbon pole. My question is how is this rigged? Do you have another track or a car on the same track that the other pole is on that you can clip the carbon (second) pole into. Does the boat need to be built with two pole lifts or could you use the spinnaker halyard as one of the pole lifts?

[@DistantShoresTV]

We haven't done the final design for the mast yet. I think Discovery Yachts (building our new boat) have specified twin track on their boats with this option in the past. We flew both jibs across the Atlantic in 2015 plus the main as well for our very quick 11 day crossing distantshores.ca/boatblog_files/storm-spinnaker-transatlantic-downwind-sails.php Here's an article in Yachting World with details and showing two tracks on the mast www.yachtingworld.com/cruising/downwind-sailing-tips-sail-more-comfortably-and-faster-with-this-simple-white-sails-solution-62725

[@TeeFunkable]

So... I have no idea how reliable the AVS and ballast ratios posted by southerly are, but to me it seems like you have the option of fitting a slow, really steady cruisers with an awesome AVS figure with either a lighter more expensive mast that might shatter if pushed or a less expensive mast that can suffer due fatigue. Either way, you'll end up with a slow cruising boat with great AVS. Wouldn't it make sense to opt for the one with the lesser chance of catastrophic failure?

[@doodlegassum6959]

Very interesting. Do you have any difficulties obtaining specs/dimensions etc from OEM?

[@DistantShoresTV]

Not at all. It has been very nice working with the Dutch on this project.

[@tomriley5790]

Interesting, so presumably if you want to add things that involve drilling holes eg radars or leading halyards into the mast etc. it's risky on a Carbon mast?

[@DistantShoresTV]

Definitely consult with mast manufacturer before drilling… perhaps bond on a base instead

[@sailinglegend4092]

What is the price difference between carbon and aluminium?

[@dalegaren3974]

It would have been neat to see how they remove the aluminum from the inside of the carbon fiber mast. Very informative video. Thanks

[@DistantShoresTV]

They pull the waxed aluminum mandrel out with a huge hydraulic puller Dale, but sadly they weren't doing any when we were there!

[@zzzxxzzz4797]

What does lightning attract to the easiest or which material conducts electricity the best ? Which is the most resistant ?

[@DistantShoresTV]

I'm sure aluminum conducts the best but not sure which might attract a strike? Lighting is so unpredictable...

[@AndyUK-Corrival]

Interesting video. Given the demise of Southerly what design will Distant Shores III be? I am in UK not far from Gospprt and I have a Rival 32 moored near Emsworth so I know the area well. Thanks. Andy

[@DistantShoresTV]

Distant Shores III is being built by Discovery Yachts Group who have recently acquired Southerly... here is our page on the new boat distantshores.ca/about-us/the-boats/distant-shores-3/ Here is Discovery page on their new branding ... www.southerlyyachts.com

[@AndyUK-Corrival]

Distant Shores TV ok that is great I had no idea they had been bought out. Are they at the same facility in Itchenor? I must go down there as a mate of mine is having his Carter 33 rebuilt in the yard. Best of luck. Andy

[@DistantShoresTV]

Andy, Discovery have bought moulds and designs but not the business. Northshore (old Southerly) are still operating as a yard doing repairs etc down at the lovely yard in Itchenor!

[@seanrhone5306]

Okay, so you can't or shouldn't drill holes in carbon fiber poles, then what do you do when you want to add winches or rope clutches to your mast?

[@DistantShoresTV]

Sean, I think any high-load items would need to be discussed with Seldén before going ahead. We are talking with them at the Southampton Boat Show on the weekend and will ask your question.

[@JY-mq5lg]

I wish they showed how they made in mast furling in aluminium and carbon

[@DistantShoresTV]

We will show aluminum in-mast furling build next time Jeff. Note they cannot build in-mast in carbon :-(

[@chiefcliff]

As a casual observer, whenever I see a broken mast, not including knock-down situations, it's often a carbon mast. Considering that the overwhelming number of masts currently out there are aluminum, that's not comforting. I think the scientists out there try to out smart themselves when calculating loads. Those calculations probably consider sailors always use correct sail configurations when sailing...which is far from the real world. I don't know. Could be wrong. I would prefer to be over engineered than scientifically accurate.

[@DistantShoresTV]

hmmm I think you must hang out in high-end marinas to see a number of broken carbon rigs :-) I definitely agree mast need to be calculated with the unusual loads in mind! Next time we visit Seldén I'll ask so see more info on the calculations for a cruising boat VS racing where and how that relates to carbon vs alu.

[@klaatu2]

What is this, Baitclick? You did not address the very title of this video and it was just a repost,

[@TammyNorie]

May I ask how you got your mast from Selden? When I wrote to them they deflected me to riggers, none of whom answered queries. Who did you do business with?

[@ysesq]

hope Distant Shores III is a trimaran

[@icebear1559]

Interesting. After years of racing you can't beat a carbon rig for weight and strength. But what you did not discus was how carbon stores damage and will fail without warning. As well you must maintain a carbon rig with paint to ensure UV does not damage it. So for me I use Aluminum for cruising and carbon for racing. Try getting a carbon rig pass through repaired on your rig in Greece? Ya thought so. Won't happen. But cool video. Maybe in 40 years.

[@billydarley6925]

the new 777x building at boeing is going to be making carbon fiber wings in a similar fashion to these masts as i understand it. computer controlled. the machines for it were pretty big as was the entire building.

[@bellavoice]

Now thats a plane I won't fly in. Lightening strikes cause often unseen fractures. Metal fractures are visible. I've flown in too many storms to trust a carbon winged plane. Sure it will save on fuel because of its lighter weight. But at what price to safety I ask?

[@billydarley6925]

only time will tell. im absolutely no expert in it but i've always said the carbon product is only as strong as the resin. ppl act like the product is impossible to destroy since its made from carbon fiber but they never think about how brittle the resin is. its almost snake oil.

[@SecsSells]

Although my CFM comes from the 80's I still have complete confidence in it. Honestly I don't understand why the industry stays with aluminum besides the cost factor.

[@DistantShoresTV]

Cost and complexity to build. Seldén builds in a number of facilities worldwide but just has the one plant capable of carbon with that huge oven and the complex filament winding machine. Aluminum is much easier to make a factory to do it.

[@brieneaton8578]

BTY. When I win the Loto Max , I'm getting a " Antares 44i " By myself . LOL.

[@aMadHouseProduction]

Carbon!!!

[@andrewlabat9963]

Ok, so carbon or aluminum?

[@BobbieGWhiz]

I was under the impression Distant Shores II was your new boat. Haven’t you had that a relatively very short time? Why a third boat?

[@DistantShoresTV]

We got DS2 8 years ago! Time flies, and so will the new boat with lots of improvements !

[@cbthomas9577]

Carbon fiber mast?,.......not so much. Great for racing but it has broken many more times than aluminum. For example the $2.5 million dollar Gunboat "Rainmaker" lost her carbon mast off Cape Hatteras. The boat was a total loss. I'll stay with Selden Aluminum.

[@henriquehenrique733]

aluminum

[@USA4thewin]

That dude is a jerk ... he didnt even answer the question....

[@niccat7051]

Exited 🙄

[@kentwood2914]

Bizarre...Selden talks all about carbon as the right choice without really saying it, you choose aluminum and there's no discussion about the choice...which I believe was the click bait title Carbon or Aluminum? purpose. Make a video and then just turn it into click bait? Is that the purpose here?

[@milordas]

wooden