"Salt" Batteries are FINALLY Here?! Sooo should you use them?

[@greatscottlab]

Small correction that was not clear in the video. I said that the discharge/charge curve for Li-Ion, LiPo and LFP (LiFePo4) is about the same. That is not completely true since LFP or LiFePo4 comes with lower voltage levels. But their voltage does also not drop that much. It is pretty flat across the whole discharge region. This is what I was trying to say.

[@takipsizad]

also there is a betterhelp sponsorship in the subtitles

[@th1nhhdk]

​@@takipsizadI'm glad that he removed ít because BetterHelp is a scam

[@havocking9224]

How can this comment be 10 days old ? :D

[@TheRealEtaoinShrdlu]

​@@havocking9224video was probably pre-released 10 days ago.

[@greatscottlab]

@@takipsizad Fixed. Sorry about that.

[@dougle03]

Nice to see a new battery tech video not filling with fluff and marketing hype. Just the numbers and graphs... This is what we want! Simple information well presented without the guff... Well done.

[@FBPrepping]

That's why I subscribed to this dude.

[@wesselsi3791]

Yeah this dude’s channel is a real gem. He also did a test on “is using fast charging bad” he really puts in the effort to get the data

[@robertdascoli949]

Nice to see sodium batterers leaving the lab and making it to production. This will be a game changer in home and grid storage where space isn't always an issue but cost and lifespan is.

[@Alias_Anybody]

Honestly, I think it's the future for anything battery powered that's larger than a notebook. Even if it never reaches the same energy density, the potentially far better price (and rarity of Lithium) plus the lower risk of fires and explosions probably makes them better for EVs too, because range is less important than replacement cost and safety.

[@nikoraasu6929]

​@@Alias_Anybodyrange less important on already shit range vehicles

[@alexipestov7002]

​@@nikoraasu6929The range is perfectly adequate if you have your own property to charge on. If you don't... you're pretty much SOL

[@playerroku4412]

Range is less important? Please stop. Like yesterday

[@araarathisyomama787]

@@playerroku4412 Depends on a context, probably less of a problem in Europe than it is in America. Have a friend who has driven a worn

[@emocee]

"That's assault!" "No, it's battery."

[@jimmybrad156]

So, Dium was salty about going back in his cell.

[@happycolours8551]

No, it's assault battery

[@jimmybrad156]

@@happycolours8551 don't get madammy cause I didn't charge ya battery..

[@balintgalambos691]

Sodium burns more violent and reacts more with water

[@husc7775]

NaCl NaOH The base is under a salt.

[@carbonstar9091]

Sounds great for large static installations like houses. Maybe not so great for power tools and high performance applications.

[@greatscottlab]

Yes, exactly

[@platin2148]

​@@greatscottlab Let's see if the market actually goes in that direction. Would be great to get cheap home energy storage for my solar. Well maybe I bit more difficult as I have around 800V output with 16A..

[@kelvin1316]

Which keeps the expensive Lithium for those batteries that really need it.

[@andreasdill4329]

Power tools where totally fine with way worse NiCd and NiMh Cells for ~30 years.

[@reaganharder1480]

​@@andreasdill4329totally useable, yes, but anyone working with them all day definitely notices the difference Li-ion makes. Maybe someday environmentally concious contractors will end up preferring sodium batteries for their drills and will just keep more of them on hand (and perhaps the better cycle endurance will make it actually a good investment), but yeah, lots of folks running cordless tools are already outrunning the single charge capacity of Li-ion.

[@walker1054]

Home battery storage will be awesome for these since size isn't a big concern, same for businesses. Like if a Tesla Powerwall was twice as big for the same capacity but 25% cheaper and you know it's made using cleaner materials which we'll never run out of, and ideally not* gathered by workers in unreasonable conditions, then yeah I'd choose that version of the power wall for sure! Hopefully they start coming to market within a couple of years. Sodium should hopefully be able to be mined for cheap in enough quantities in USA and EU too within having to rely on imports.

[@greatscottlab]

Love your conclusion. Hopefully it will work out this way :-)

[@realdragon]

Also safety is very important, I don't want my house to spontaneously combust because of battery

[@drdca8263]

I think you left out a “not”; I don’t think you meant “ideally gathered by workers in unreasonable conditions”.

[@justme5384]

I have almost unlimited space so cutting the price for a larger battery is no problem for me

[@rocketboysmc]

"and ideally gathered by workers in unreasonable conditions" hmmmm not sure if that is what you ment

[@Reversed82]

i replaced the battery in my offgrid cabin with prismatic sodium ion cells already, works great. i used a JK-BMS and just configured it for the parameters of the sodium ion cells. comes with the great advantage of being able to charge in low temps as low as -10°C which lifepo4 can't do, but still it's as safe as lifepo4. i just used a random buck/boost module to boost the voltage if it drops too low for the consumers

[@greatscottlab]

Thanks for the feedback. Awesome to hear.

[@stevebabiak6997]

“… up to -10C …” or “as low as -10C …” The former sounds as if lower is a possibility.

[@Reversed82]

@@stevebabiak6997 "as low as -10°C", bad wording, not a native speaker :D

[@sc0or]

The -10°C problem you could solve with a piece of a heated floor foil, and a temperature sensor. I'm pretty sure there are number of solutions on a market. This is a tiny priece of the soduim low Wh/eur problem. If you don't mind to pay x2, then a standard lorry unserviceable lead batteries is a great option. Assuming a discharging to 50% to extend a battery life, here we have 6 Wh/eur from a well known manufacturer (and you still have 50% of an energy for an emergent case).

[@ctbrahmstedt]

I was just watching a video, I think from Big Clive, where he put a schottky diode in series with a lipo during charging with a standard lipo charger, and the 0.3V drop kept the battery

[@greatscottlab]

Haha yep. That sounds like a easy hack. Not 100% safe, but probably good enough.

[@eiv-gaming]

@@greatscottlabWell, thats Big Clive in a nutshell :D

[@TotesCray]

Will it carbonate? What's inside this battery? (Fire apparently)

[@Wegetsignal]

Hope this technology grows!

[@volvo09]

Yeah, as long as the diode doesn't short it's a decent hack. If it shorts then you have a slight overcharge.

[@someguy9520]

So many bots on your video unfortunately. Reported them all, hope it helps

[@greatscottlab]

I blocked them. But thanks :-)

[@tin2001]

Ironically, the comments saying "so many bots" are starting to sound a bit bot-like lately. I see very very similarly worded comments everywhere now. Never mentioning the channel or video topic. Just "bots everywhere, I reported". Not saying any of them definitely are bots, but it's just weird how similar they all end up being.

[@thookie118]

@@tin2001bots will often copy real comments to sound more real.

[@Snugggg]

@@thookie118 its a fascinating topic, if not a little bit frightening at times. There is so much inauthentic commenting on all social media now. Companies that you can pay to push an agenda on social media. There's a great documentary podcast on the subject, that gets into the thick of fake social media campaigns. "who trolled amber heard?".

[@alenasenie6928]

@@Snugggg I am sure we could make bots that had content pertinent comments, we have the tech, but it is probably to expensive to run them right now, and I am ambivalent, I want the tech to be easily accessible, but I don't want it to be so hard to distinguish from real people (you can feed videos to LLMs, then add comments from real people and create new ones that are on topic but are generated, use the like to dislike ratio to learn what works, they don't need to copy comments at that point)

[@salemthekit6143]

I really appreciate this video, but I do want to give a minor correction. You mentioned in the beginning how no channels were doing sodium ion testing but Off-Grid Garage has a fantastic series where he put these batteries through the ringer and put up a ton of data on them. I highly recommend checking him out if you get the chance!

[@greatscottlab]

Thanks for the info!

[@michaeltempsch5282]

Julian Illett has done a couple of videos on them too.

[@BobHannent]

Yes, Julian Illett was probably the first person to make a YT video about these cells. It's frustrating when people claim to be first of anything without correctly researching their claim.

[@salemthekit6143]

@@BobHannent I don't necessarily blame anyone for missing them. I had to search for a while before I was randomly recommended them from the algorithm

[@BobHannent]

@@salemthekit6143 if you don't have an exclusive then I'd generally say it's dangerous to assume you're first in anything.

[@jamescampbell6728]

I think these have A LOT of potential. But everyone has been waiting for the "revolutionary new battery technology" and that likely isn't going to happen. We will likely rely on a wide range of technologies for different use cases that will prevent over-reliance on certain materials. Like lithium (Good vid!)

[@reaganharder1480]

Quite frankly we are running out of options for "a revolutionary new battery technology". Lithium was sorta that. Sodium batteries do solve a lot of the problems with Lithium batteries though, just with a bit of a performance hit.

[@diogocarvalho2934]

Graphene might be it, but it's probably going to be on the timeline that everything graphene operates in... Reminds me of fusion

[@winonesoon9771]

There's to many huge huge companies out there like gas and oil or what ever like that.... They want there money and really good batteries would destroy them.....

[@ethzero]

"I think these have A LOT of potential" - Well, they are batteries! *ba dum tish*

[@michaeljay6349]

We've had multiple 'revolutionary new battery technologies'... Lithium-based chemistries have replaced NiCA. If "salt' batteries mass produce well, they will likely replace Lead Acid... I mean, batteries are still going to be batteries, no matter how much lighter and smaller they get.

[@chemputer]

Calling them salt batteries is going to annoy all the chemists in the audience.

[@microcolonel]

That's a great reason to do it.

[@CLOUDCHASER510]

@Chemputer they left 30 seconds in, as soon as they heard battawee 😮

[@utrak]

chemists: BAN ASSALT BATTERIES

[@justinjja2]

He put “salt” is quotes, that makes it ok lol.

[@treschlet]

I'ma call them "dechlorinated salt batteries"

[@rokas69]

Love seeing battery evolve. The lithium ones are good but it feels like you are handling a tnt every time you work with them😂. Btw good video!

[@greatscottlab]

Yes, I know what you mean. If you handle them correctly, nothing bad usually happens. But I witnessed some cells going nuclear. Not a fun sight.

[@igorordecha]

Yeah, I've also seen some research that said (some) sodium batteries could be discharged to 0V and not get permanently damaged. If that were the case we could discharge all the cells with a resistor or something, spot weld the pack together, solder wires, connectors etc without any risk of shorting anything and then, when everything's in place, we could charge the pack. (yes, i've briefly shorted out a 13s pack when soldering an xt60 connector. The heatshrink wrap that was covering up one lead broke and part of my soldering iron tip has vaporized. It was only 40-something volts. Can't imagine a short at 600V) Extrapolating that, working on EVs with sodium batteries would be much safer

[@balintgalambos691]

Sodium is more reactive than lithium. So bigger tnt.

[@EShirako]

The fun starts when you drop a li-ion pouch-style battery and dent the corner of it when it lands. It was my first unintentional battery fire! \o/ It's not as bad as TNT, but they do keep you VERY mindful of what you might do wrong with them.

[@jimg5669]

Why do y'all hate Roman Candles? 😆😆😆

[@madcow3417]

I put together a sodium ion power tool battery. The voltage drops a lot while running (internal resistance). For a car tire pump it's not too bad because it works at a lower temperature, so I can leave it sitting in my car in the winter. It's definitely a lot larger (physically) battery than the li-ion equivalent. I don't plan on making any more power tool batteries out of sodium ion. I'm thinking of making an off-grid solar panel system for my garage specifically to charge an electric car, and as an emergency (extension cord) backup for the house. With the lower temperature capability and a lower price than LFP, and longer cycle life than Li-Ion, I plan on using sodium for this project.

[@greatscottlab]

Thanks for the feedback. Great to hear some practical experience :-)

[@daveh7720]

Good to know the sodium chemistry tolerates lower temperatures. Thanks! I think sodium will have a place in bulk energy storage where volume and mass aren't critical, charge management system costs are acceptable, and safety is important. (Home storage system like you envision, and vehicles.) Prices of the cells should come down as production ramps up, especially once competition between manufacturers starts up.

[@SpencerPaire]

Thanks for sharing! People that take on the cost and risk of such new technology make the whole world better. Best of luck with the solar project!

[@PJ-oe6eu]

​@@daveh7720 Not sure about vehicles as mass and volume are generally pretty important for those.

[@daveh7720]

@@PJ-oe6euI think auto manufacturers would be willing to trade an extra 15-20% weight and volume for power storage that costs 10% of what lithium does.

[@levigillis3475]

I think what i love most is the safety, this might just be a very good battery for DIY projects. No longer feeling like holding a grenade fearing it will blow up and light your house on fire when connecting the wires :D

[@DarkningBolt]

Same, I always connect an ammeter in series so at the very least I can yank the wires off or the fuse blows inside the meter 🤣

[@AWillfulMemory]

Also another thing to remember is that the max capacity of sodium-ion batteries will likely increase in the future like what happened with lithium-ion batteries.

[@greatscottlab]

True true

[@PJ-oe6eu]

​@@luelou8464 Yea they are about as old as lithium ion batteries.

[@AWillfulMemory]

@@luelou8464 fair, I just like think positively about the future of technology.

[@AWillfulMemory]

@@PJ-oe6eu lithium batteries were first being worked on in the 60s and have had continuous devoplment whereas sodium batteries were first being worked on in the 70s and mostly shelved in the late 80s until the 2010s. Source: a few minutes on Wikipedia so i could be way off.

[@reaganharder1480]

I'm not entirely sure on the chemistry of it, but as I understand the theoretical best capacity for sodium is still meaningfully lower than lithium, but I would imagine there is still some room for improvement.

[@seditt5146]

Take the materials inside and place it in a flame. If its Red flame its Lithium, if its Yellow, its Sodium. Simple. Hell you could place a tiny flake on the stove and it will tell you all you need to know.

[@reverse_engineered]

I don't think the lithium nor sodium are in the form of elemental metals.

[@TheLolzKnight]

@@reverse_engineered The salt they're in the form of (Not NaCl table salt, LiKPO4 is also a salt) doesn't matter. Flame color is a result of electron transition states producing photons (light), which only happens when the atom is in the plasma ionized state. Like ionized in a flame. They briefly exist in the pure state, unbonded, so the salt doesn't matter. Biggest problem with this approach is that if there's additives that dilute or alter the color you would get funky results. Best way would be to do this but use a diffraction grating to see the spectral line. You'll see the ones of the additives, but at least also the ones of the key component. Electron don't lie baby

[@leo.simensen]

@UC44sHJTAL5sVGrWOdSXafyg to be fair, sodium has such a dominant and specific color that it should be immediately obvious if it's present, the diffraction grating probably isn't necessary

[@matthewcovington2699]

My capstone project was on this exact subject. I really like how you laid out the information for your video! Battery advancements are going crazy these days.

[@greatscottlab]

Glad you liked it and thanks for the feedback :-)

[@Sylvan_dB]

Andy @Off-Grid Garage has been doing some significant testing of sodium batteries (not cells so much). The wider voltage range and sinking discharge curve compared to the nearly flat curve of LiFePO4 is rather a problem until/unless off grid electronics is designed for the wider voltage range.

[@greatscottlab]

Thanks for the information.

[@cygil1]

For consumer devices and off grid use, yes. For energy storage of Solar, Wind etc. this is very encouraging news..

[@Sylvan_dB]

@@cygil1 I specifically mentioned off-grid. I'd like to see a comparison between these commercial sodium ion batteries and the classic nickel-iron batteries. Sodium-ion have a similar wide voltage range disadvantage but if these are not using nickel then cost (at least short term) would favor sodium-ion. (some sodium ion chemistries also use nickel but many do not) Nickel-iron is an old and wonderfully robust and durable chemistry for stationary applications. Nickel isn't cheap and energy density is low. Wide voltage range (similar to sodium-ion) was also an impediment. However the batteries are capable of daily heavy cycling for decades then a flush and cleaning of the anode and cathode and refill with fresh lye (electrolyte) and they are good to go again for decades more. Con-Ed in New York used 100 year old nickel-iron batteries for load management on their D.C. grid until just a few years ago. Some old installations were also used after the D.C. grid was shut down by doing local rectification to power a facility grid, with surges handled by the batteries.

[@Margen67]

Owls need HUGS

[@betterl8thannvr]

Great video! You missed temperature as well. For outdoor installations (weather stations, solar powered meshtastic, etc) sodium batteries can be charged and discharged down to -20c, whereas lithium does not like to be charged much below 0c and has issues with discharge when cold as well.

[@tedarcher9120]

LFP works perfectly well up to -20 and even -30 in some cases

[@steveroberts1861]

They will be great for house installations.

[@Breakfast_of_Champions]

Anything where volume and weight isn't so important is going to get taken over by this.

[@husc7775]

Only if the price will drop a lot currently is around 400$/kwh I was able to build my LFP battery 5 kwh for 500 dolars( i was hunting on aliexpres for a very long time) with bms which is around 100$/kwh but you can pretty easlit get it for 150$ without hunting. Due to bigger volume, lover power delivery, lover number of cycles than LFP and i think because of operating voltage range they will have lover effincincy in converting DC to AC their price would need to drop to 50-75 $/ kwh or even lover to make them have sense which is between 6 to 8 times cheaper than curently.

[@michal_king478]

gotta point out I love how you neatly draw stuff on printed graphs etc in the video instead of just showing us a slide show or something. Its a nice touch and adds to the experience

[@str8up598]

Lithium took a while to evolve as well. Glad to see battery chemistry competitor.

[@EduVentiladores]

Excellent video

[@perdonomai8060]

Nice! When calculating the W/$ should really consider also the life of the battery. Natron Energy's bluepack claims 50-100K cycles so if you buy 100Kw lithium for home storage you will need to replace it every 5-10 years while with sodium probably you will never need to replace it.

[@Hellsong89]

Never? Pretty sure it was said the sodium has bit more charge cycles, not infinite amount. Also for safety we shall see what happens to battery packs that are in practical situations abused and end of their life or in extreme power draw. While not having fire just battery flying from released gasses is better, not combine that to hundreds of cells. We shall then see if garage door gets yeeted out if whole pack goes boom.

[@perdonomai8060]

@@Hellsong89 "never" was for 50-100K cycles for bluepack that I've mention. Generally, sodium research so far mentions about long life cycle, safety, ~100% DoD and fast charge/discharge. All those are still on papers but theoretically can be achieved. It's still early for sodium but it is really promising. I agree that the results matter but we will need time to see them.

[@brucey5585]

😂which lithium are you talking about? Lfp battery are more commonly used for home storage and those are rated at 4000 - 5000 cycles to 80%. It will take you 13 years to get 5000 cycle and still have 80% of the battery available. Your salt battery is not even proven in the real world yet and you are claiming charging forever.

[@perdonomai8060]

@@brucey5585 It's not my salt battery :P What research claims is that sodium can reach much more cycles than lithium. Also told you that Natron Energy's bluepack already claims 50-100K cycles. For a new house (let's say 50-100 years house life) will need to buy batteries 10 times to be able to support it. With sodium you will never need to buy a battery again.

[@kevin_6217]

You have absolutely no idea how electricity works...

[@fuerte-af]

This Will be Game changer for houses, factories and the grid

[@chrisw1462]

@6:45 "You can find sodium cells with slightly higher capacity." Yes, and if you search, you can find Lithium cells with slightly higher capacities. 3700 mAh is pretty common for high quality cells, and 4000 mAh is not unheard of. I've seen claims of 5000 mAh, but I'd have to test them myself to believe it.

[@harrkev]

Once the price drops, these are going to be amazing for home battery systems.

[@Sythemn]

Note: I've read that sodium Ion Batteries can be discharged to 0v without damage. So a BMS to doesn't need to prevent overdischarge, at least in theory. Question: I haven't found a single mention of what happens when they are overcharged... Could you test that?

[@EpicTurtle113]

Did anyone else wince when he had the vernier calipers on the cell, moments before he clamped onto the shell 😂

[@MenkoDany]

I agree, these would be ideal for cheap large solar battery arrays

[@rasimbot]

What about a flame color test?

[@Charvak-Atheist]

Sodium ion battery is best for Stationary storage. And Energy density doesn't matter for Stationary purposes, it just need to be cheap.

[@שלובושי]

I am quite pyrophobic. that has really been keeping me from experimenting with lithium batteries. I truly hope this technology will improve soon, and we can truly have safe batteries.

[@balintgalambos691]

Sodium is more reactive than lithium so less safe

[@שלובושי]

@@balintgalambos691 from what I have seen, sodium batteries don't explode like lithium ones (much smaller fire), and they are far more resistant to temperature change..

[@balintgalambos691]

@@שלובושי then learn about alkali metals. Lithium is the least reactive, sodium is more reactive, then potassium, and rubidium. Lithium never exploded by its own, it exploded due water and sodium is mor reactive with water.

[@shepardpolska]

​@@balintgalambos691 There is very little actual lithium in lithium-ion batteries anyway. The reason they catch fire is their high energy density and flammable electrolyte. When the battery gets damaged, it heats up enough to ignite the boiling electrolyte. It has nothing to do with lithium reactivity. I would guess sodium batteries don't do this because they have lower energy density, higher internal resistance and an electrolyte that is harder to ignite

[@benjaminhennequart5018]

​@@balintgalambos691 ​ ​ @shepardpolska There is no lithium or sodium in their metallic forms in such batteries hence the specific element in use is unimportant. What makes a battery dangerous is (as mentioned by ​ @shepardpolska) is the amount of energy stored. These sodium ion cells have lower energy density and therefore are less dangerous than the Li-ion ones. Another example are the LiFePO4-based (LFP) batteries. Although using lithium ions, their energy density is much lower than typical Li-ion batteries (NMC based) and are therefore also less dangerous to handle.

[@tjlingram]

A fact that was missed here witch is a big plus or pro is its temperature range. Being able to go down to close to freezing and still charge

[@strayling1]

What's the self-discharge rate like for the sodium cells? You didn't mention it so I expect it's fine, but I'm interested to know anyway.

[@greatscottlab]

Well, I didn't test for that and the datasheet also has nothing to say about it. Let's see if that will be a problem for them in the future.

[@ILoveTinfoilHats]

​@@greatscottlabtest it! Put some aside and measure the voltage once a month

[@JanicekTrnecka]

Where size and weight doesnt matter much...yes please! As their price drops and cycle life improves I am all for it. I definitely think these will find their use case!

[@stefans9990]

Great Video - thank you!. Can only hope that this get to mass production quickly. Just a quick thing and apologies if I perhaps missed it, but how did the weight compare?

[@greatscottlab]

There is a Wh/kg chart in the video. Pause the video to have a closer look. I think the cell was around 40g.

[@steveb1600]

Thank you for providing the first review on the Sodium battery. I didn't expect this new type of battery to become commercially available this soon. However, I'm a bit frustrated that you didn't open the battery enclosure to show us its internal materials or test its potential for explosion.

[@batterylife123]

I punched 1 no flames just smoke

[@stylis666]

"You can put your picture on a PCB." 🤣 FIne! I'll subscribe just because of how silly and funny that option is with your sponsor 🤣

[@spedi6721]

How about self-discharge?

[@greatscottlab]

Well, I didn't test for that and the datasheet also has nothing to say about it. Let's see if that will be a problem for them in the future.

[@hlq2action310]

So good, now we can make safe batteries at home for off-grid systems, and for cheap!

[@mihaiciornei5648]

Honestly, I'm glad, because finally there is another type of batteries, this means that we are on the right track. We all know that the future is electric current, but the main problem is... we have a way to store it, just not in a very efficient way. More ways to store it, more ways to evolve... I'm honestly already looking to buy, to see what it's like and plus, to support this idea.

[@4203105]

Sodium is not a salt...

[@niloyck2540]

No shit genius

[@4203105]

@@niloyck2540 If it's such a no-brainer, why did the guy who made this video get it wrong multiple times?

[@metaleggman18]

​@@4203105 because they're colloquially called salt batteries since anytime sodium is brought up, people think of sodium chloride.

[@4203105]

@@metaleggman18 That's nice. It's still wrong. Maybe if we start correcting people instead of always making excuses, they'll eventually get it correct.

[@benjaminhennequart5018]

@@4203105 I have studied batteries for the past 5 years, trust me there are lots of inaccuracies and oversights. However, simplification is essential for reaching larger crowds and making the tech hyped and people interested in science. This is scientific dissemination. The way people like you correct scientific inaccuracies of dissemination content makes science look unattainable and only for insiders. It devalues the science for the public and feeds the feeling of distrust toward scientist. Sodium is not salt, just like silicon is not sand but if it can capture the public for them to understand on the surface and get interested, that's worthwhile.

[@schneider2627]

you can burn a small piece of the metal and determine if its lithium or sodium based on the flame color. lithium should give a pink color while sodium should give a yellow/orange color.

[@appsapps-e7b]

Who is watching great great Scott from india

[@Electrically-Electronic]

From Sri Lanka. Close enough ;-)

[@dinoscheidt]

Depends on the vpn

[@christopherkarlon4463]

Brazil 😮

[@killtrocity6857]

Probably from a call center 😅😅

[@techtechnicalgaming]

Mee

[@ThomasYT1]

Every time you say sodium, i think of the mod Sodium in minecraft😂😂

[@evensgrey]

Sodium-sulfur batteries have been around for DECADES in large-scale use. In Japan, they use them for grid storage.

[@ronbart8082]

Wow! Well done. Very high bandwidth.

[@brefasdra]

My 4am thought on this is, sodium and water are not best friends, so i hope that say in a flood its not going to cause any extra hazards. I know they would be sealed but if they get damaged.

[@superslash7254]

I think these sodium cells might be the killer answer for low powered electronics projects. The safety, environmental tolerance, and outstanding cycle life make them a FANTASTIC option for very long term use in home projects like ESPs and cubecells.

[@zJericho101z]

Seems like a much more viable battery for inner city cars and would hopefully bring down insurance/maintenance costs

[@misch2]

In our country, one of the battery manufacturers is called "Bateria Slaný" which literally translates to "Salty Battery". However, it has nothing to do with the technology, it is just named after the town "Slaný".

[@05Matz]

Oh, that's cool! Good to see newer battery chemistries actually showing up on the market rather than remaining vaporware.

[@petar7790]

I really liked it how you measured the length of the battery with the metall calipers and not shorting it. 7:02 I can see myself doing that mistake once.

[@robbenfelix]

Thank you kindly for this no-nonsense, no marketing hype approach. Though I'm a bit reluctant to share your optimism of "these batteries are just gonna get better with time" sentiment. There is no way of knowing that, these might just be a novel, interesting dead end.

[@clemensruis]

One HUGE advantage of sodium-ion batteries over both lithium-ion batteries and LiFePO4 batteries is the temperature range! With that in mind, they should be great for battery-powered outdoors sensors and data loggers and solar lights and such. Sodium-ion batteries usually have a working temperature range of -40°C - 80°C (above 80% state of charge retention rate at -20°C) Lithium-ion batteries usually have a range of -20°C - 60°C and the performance will reduce drastically below 0°C LiFePO4 batteries also typically operate within a temperature range of -20° - 60°C, and the optimal performance is achieved between 0°C - 45°C

[@chrismusso69]

These will be great for long term use and large-scale applications where space isn't an issue like a powerwall or electric generator etc.

[@JamieBainbridge]

Glad to see these finally available for general usage. It's exhausting to read about constant battery tech innovations which never amount to anything. Sodium batteries will get cheaper and safer for large boring workloads. Very cool.

[@iskandartaib]

I've thought about this for a while, that lithium could be replaced by other metals in the first row of the Periodic Table in batteries. You could potentially get even higher cell voltages by using, say, potassium. But there is one thing that will make lithium based batteries better on capacity per unit weight basis - the atomic weight of lithium is far lower than that of sodium, potassium, etc. Which means a mole of lithium will weigh a lot less. You might eventually be able to pack more sodium into the same package to make up for it, but the batteries will weigh more.

[@thedryparn1279]

What electronic load is that atorch one?

[@thomascorbett709]

When I was taking chemistry in high school a couple years ago, I pondered why sodium wasn't used for batteries. A major part of why lithium ion batteries are so energy dense (relatively speaking), is due to its extremely low Specific Reduction Potential (-3.04V). Sodium, being the next Group 1 metal, had a SRP of -2.71V. This would make it less energy dense, but given the abundance of sodium (i.e. the damn ocean) it seemed very appealing. I wonder why it took so long to get here.

[@HAXZingTERR0R]

you are correct with the comparison of LFP and Na-ion. that’s the strategy cell suppliers are marketing for. the first run of these are going to be in large stationary energy storage arrays where you need good cycle life but not high rate charge or discharge.

[@johmmycheems6139]

finally i can get myself a good off grid power solution, im ready to wait about a decade to get commercially available sodium ion cells, and i think itd be the best alternative for lead acid battery at kind of similar price.. better than LFP tho

[@MilesGodin]

you could extract the contents of the battery and then calculate the molar mass and multiply by Avogadro's (6.022x 10^23) number to calculate the molar mass(mol) of the substance and compare it to the weight of the contents of the lithium ion. Sodiumm (Na) is 22.90g/mol and lithium (Li) is 6.941 g/mol

[@thesentientneuron6550]

A flame test would be a pretty definitive way to tell that they actually have sodium metal in them. Sodium burns with a distinct orange-yellow flame (sodium doublet) unlike the red for lithium. So if you want to test them out, you can qualitatively compare the flame you see by burning the sodium metal cathode and burning a lump of pure sodium metal separately as a control. If you have a spectrometer or even a diffraction grating to analyse the flame, all the better, but not strictly necessary.

[@v0idgrim]

The sodium ion battery will become the defacto standard I think. There is a place for higher density batteries or higher current output batteries. But for electrical grid battery storage, be it at scale or at home, and for alot of electrical electric vehicles I think this will help and incentivize more environmentally friendly energy usage due to it being economically better priced per Wh

[@rovert1284]

I'd happily change to a less energy dense battery for my power tools etc to remove the 'fire' risk. It is easy to have multiple batteries but it is not easy to ignore the fire risk.

[@twardnw]

I'm excitedly waiting for these to become more mainstream. I have a small off-grid cabin, and currently have to do a lot of worrying in the winter about my LFP batteries. The wider operating range of sodium, with similar density to LFP, is going to be a lifesaver as I increase the size of my energy storage

[@ezg8448]

Finally, it's nice to see actual sodium batteries available and not just some upcoming news. What it's currently capable of at commercial scale and possibly it's future potential. Hope to see a more head to head comparison video in the future.

[@jessen00001]

Awesome 🎉 the future is looking bright 😊

[@Vysair]

I can see this being great for basic home "appliances" like remote control

[@tin2001]

It's probably worth noting that Li-Ion cells used to significantly less energy dense when they were the latest technology. Common cells from 20 years ago were usually around 2Ah at most when new, while modern ones tend to be between 3 and 4 depending on the intended purpose. That improvement took only a few years once laptops switched over to lithium. I would expect we'll see similar happen with these sodium cells as popularity increases. Physics says we can't get as dense as lithium, but they should be able to get somewhere between 2-2.5Ah per 18650 cell within the next few years.... If they catch on as being a better choice.

[@dougdrinkwater5843]

Super usefull. Would have been interested in performance at different temperatures as well. Being Canadian, a battries performance in low temperatures has been a limiting factor in a lot of applications.

[@CedroCron]

Thanks for the great video on Sodium Ion batteries.

[@ptorq]

Atomic Absorption spectroscopy or its cousin Flame Emission spectroscopy would distinguish between sodium and lithium pretty easily. Heck, just take a small amount of the insides and stick it in a Bunsen burner flame. If you get a bright orange-yellow flame that's an indicator of sodium (lithium gives a red flame instead). You could test with a grain of salt to compare. The only reason for using fancy equipment is that the sodium emission is SO strong it can dominate anything else present, to the extent that sometimes people view flame tests through a filter that blocks out the sodium emission lines (like cobalt blue glass) to make it possible to see what else might be there.

[@user-uu9ru3de1y]

soft bear is the cutest thing ever

[@DoctorX17]

One of the fun things is that these cells can also keep working when damaged! There were demos of pouch sodium cells being cut in half and still lighting an LED. Obviously that lowers the capacity, and an internal short would drain it, but you don't have instant failure like you do with lithium cells. Also, fun fact... you can make your own salt battery at home! Very low power, capacity, and density, but you can do it!

[@hardencryption]

Honestly, I don't mind the power density tradeoff, given the longevity of the battery is expected to be four times that of lithium ones. When they become cheaper, I will for sure chose them over lithium ones

[@crimsama2451]

Im STILL waiting for the graphite batteries i heard about a year or two ago but im glad to see this is TRULY on the market and out in peoples hands. When this gets cheap(dont see why it wont), ill be using these as part of an outdoor solar panel greenhouse project.

[@deilusi]

Sodium is meant to be more as home power source bricks or even grid scale power bricks, as it can be about 4-10x cheaper than lithium. Getting there obviously would take a massive factory that does not exist yet. I hope we will get decently bigger as well, to match it's usecase. I wonder if 90900 would be economical.

[@pd8109]

Another advantage to sodium is temperature resilience. They'll still operate at -30, was hoping to see that included as an advantage for us northern climates

[@BrentBlueAllen]

Safety and sustainability are my main considerations. I'm excited to see how the chemistry develops!

[@kittenisageek]

One test that you ought to run is "charge efficiency." LiFePO4 batteries have a remarkable charge efficiency -- some are over 99% efficient. I have a 12v 100Ah pack that I've tested at 98% when charging at 20A. This makes them ideal for a solar-charge system. I'm curious how the sodium cells will compare, since they have a higher internal resistance.

[@Meleeman011]

lipo is my favorite battery technology when it comes to cycle life

[@chualcvn9832]

Sodium battery: Safest Charging time - 15 minutes Low/high temp, fine

[@ExploringNew1]

"aliexpress? Those are probably just some li-ion batteries" "no I know what you are thinking. Those are not fake"

[@pauljs75]

Might be interesting to see if there's any difference in performance with temperature. One reason why the NiCd chemistry still sticks around for stuff like solar lights is it tolerates cold a lot better than lithium batteries, so it'd be interesting to see if sodium would have any performance advantages or issues there.

[@ehrenmann69]

By the way you can test the presence of certain metals by burning them. Lithium will produce a red flame while sodium will produce a orange one.

[@bobbiesterling574]

would the energy density be something that could possibly increase as the tech matures or is it more of a fundamental limit? 🤔

[@greatscottlab]

It will certainly get better with time.

[@salemthekit6143]

There have already been papers showing lab results that are 4x the capacity of currently available batteries. Of course, all this shows is that the theoretical limit is higher and it's exceedingly unlikely we'll get a commercially viable cell like that. It still thankfully means that the potential for advancements is there and we'll have to see how the future unfolds.

[@sigataros]

@@salemthekit6143 you might be mistaking that for silicon which expands and breaks the battery

[@letalissonus]

There's a physical limit on how how high energy density can go (you can even calculate the theoretical maximum solely based on the elements and compounds involved), and since sodium is simply a much larger and heavier element that provides a lower base voltage it will always be quite a bit lower than lithium based batteries. While improvements are definitely to be expected - especially since the introduction of sodium batteries into the market was rushed to counter lithium shortages - there won't be any miraculous jumps in development, they share too many similarities with lithium batteries already, they were not developed from scratch. The current top of the line core components actually make it very easy to modify existing lithium battery production lines to producing sodium batteries instead.

[@salemthekit6143]

@@sigataros it's very likely that could be the case. It's been a while since I read up on it.

[@ArisoftHunter]

New technology of battery for airsoft. I'll test these. Thanks for the tip 😉

[@Mrgaton]

I love this type of video testing new technologies

[@DUKE_of_RAMBLE]

Burn what's inside... no, not by sticking it in a fire, but by sticking a small bit of what's inside into a flame. If the flame turns pinkish-red... LITHIUM! If the flame... stays yellow... SODIUM! _edit: to clarify, this would be for someone lacking a nice_ _battery tester and are willing to sacrifice a cell._

[@blackops84321]

This is a great video on this batawee.

[@mblend27]

gwate wideo* 💀

[@nielsdaemen]

Cycle life is the most important for home/grid storage

[@phillipchen7749]

the offgrid garage tested it.

[@prince3121]

A great comparison and explanation video. As a Solar Generation and LiPo battery user, I have heard about the Sodium batteries, but never investigated myself. I think as the technology matures, it will definitely become cheaper and more efficient.

[@fgregerfeaxcwfeffece]

The better cycle life is certainly also very attractive as it also decreases effective price.

[@atonduke7612]

From what I've read up, sodium ion has about the same gravimetric and volumetric energy density as LFP. Also their price is either higher or about the same, depending on where you're buying them from as of now. But their working voltage range makes them virtually unusable with current equipment (inverters, MPPT charge controllers etc.). For sodium to displace LFP they need to lower their cost and there needs to be equipment that can work with it that costs about the same or less than the current LFP compatible equipment. And until sodium ion drops in price and there's high enough demand, companies like Victron won't be interested in making compatible equipment, IMO.

[@agoffgrid640]

Speaking of waiting game, we are curiously waiting to see the results and data on your lithium ion phosphate garage batteries, because once we have that data we are converting our flooded lead acid off-grid power system to that using your videos as a guide