San Francisco Muni Transit - July 25 1991

On Thursday July 25th 1991, we went back into San Francisco, and spent the afternoon & evening filming and riding parts of the MUNI Light Rail system.
1. LRVs at the Duboce portal of the Market st Subway.
2. Some vintage busses & streetcars stored northeast of the tunnel portal.
3. Another LRV entering the Market st Subway.
4. Following a train eastbound on Ocean ave.
5. LRVs & vintage streetcars at the MUNI Metro Rail Center & the historic Geneva Car Barn.
6. A ride west & northeast on the K line from the car barn to the Forest Hill station in the Twin Peaks Tunnel.
7. Several MUNI trains at the Forest Hill station.
8. On board, riding back to Balboa Park on the M line.

[@bleepiestofbloops]

The train coupling still blows my mind. Only learned about it a month ago, or so. I haven't ridden Muni Metro much, but I had no idea this was a thing. I was especially surprised to read that all the trains were supposed to couple up into one in the subway, but timing issues never allowed that to happen. Certainly explains why the platforms are so needlessly long.

[@bleepiestofbloops]

@garbage egabrag True

[@YoLikeRyder]

I wonder what the point was. They don’t do it anymore. Even if they have a one car train, it stays as a one car train in the subway.

[@munimathbypeterfelton6251]

@@YoLikeRyder Since virtually all the years in which the Boeing LRVs operated were the pioneering years for the SF Muni Metro in the '80s and '90s, the regular coupling of the cars therein was so that multiple routes could be bunched together at one time when heading outbound and passengers wouldn't have to wait for the first train route to depart the station platform to make room for the next route(s) to enter due to them being hooked up as one more complete 2-4-car train accordingly. Also, since all five Muni Metro routes terminated at Embarcadero Station at the time, they could couple up at their respective tunnel entrances (West Portal for the K, L, and M; Church & Duboce for the J and N) and pick up at least twice as many passengers at once all heading downtown, relieving some underground traffic congestion in the subway in the process.

[@TohaBgood2]

@garbagegabrag This is only sort-of true. At the very outset, yes the upper level was planned to be where the Geary BART line would go. That's the line that was supposed to cross over the lower level of the Golden Gate Bridge into Marin Co. But San Mateo Co. pulled out of the BART district and consequently the individual contribution of each county had to go up. Marin being basically empty at that point could not have handled the newly increased yearly contribution. They insisted on staying in the BART district and proceeding with the plan. But BART got cold feet about asking Marin voters to approve a pretty crazy tax increase to pay for BART. If they didn't approve it then all of BART would have died. So BART forced Marin Co. out of the district, but promised that they could rejoin at a future date. This was the condition imposed by Marin. After that the upper deck of the Market st subway became useless and they removed it from the plan. A few years later Muni swooped in with plans of building a separate metro/subway system for SF. BART dusted off the old plans for the Geary Subway and Market st second deck, and handed that to Muni. Muni could have modified the length of the stations at this point. But they decided to try to utilize it somehow instead. This is how the whole coupling-uncoupling shenanigans came into being. Boeing Vetrol was just getting into light rail vehicle design at that point, so Muni managed to con them into trying to design a system that could take advantage of the longer stations and simultaneously reduce congestion in the Market st subway. So yes, kind of because of BART, but also Muni wanted to use the length of the stations to their advantage. This never really worked. Both the Boeing and the subsequent Breda vehicles were kind of disastrous LRVs with immense mechanical and electronic issues. The current Siemens trains are really the first "big boy" train that Muni has ever had.

[@TohaBgood2]

This same idea was supposed to be implemented by the MBTA subway in Boston. They both signed up onto the "US Standard Light Rail Vehicle". Boeing Vetrol was supposed to build them a "standard" light rail vehicle that would then hopefully spread all over the country as a cheaper "light metro" alternative to full subways/metros. This never really worked particularly well. But it is an interesting bit of shared history between two kind of similar cities and their light metro systems.

[@learnthroughmusicandlyrics6361]

Oh man, I am in total Heaven watching this video! All those wonderful sights and sounds of the classic Boeing streetcars of San Francisco! These trains made my childhood! Thanks so much for sharing this with us, Dan Cluley! You are a saint!

[@dlcluley]

Glad you liked it. I'm sorry I've never had a chance to get back to the West Coast

[@jackychiwokwong]

@Dan Cluley bad Muni LRV1 !

[@ReclusiveMountainMan]

Remember riding these trains.

[@Perich29]

did the door plug blew off the train?

[@jeremymuther8656]

Grew up in SF in 89 and saw a lot of the changes to muni def brings back memories live in Boston now

[@jessealvarez779]

Funny you mention that, Boston ordered these at the same time MUNI did. The tapered noses were designed to navigate the old Boston tunnels. In fact, the 1300 series of these with the red floors were Boston rejects that MUNI put to use.

[@jeremymuther8656]

@@jessealvarez779 wow interesting never knew that thanks for that

[@SantaDog81]

I miss the old Muni colors. White and orange seems more friendly than gray and red.

[@enolamsamoht]

This takes me back to elementary school.

[@pavld335]

Me too. I loved those cars.

[@WoooooooW_000]

Yes me to

[@WoooooooW_000]

@@enolamsamoht yessss damn that was like way back when though

[@Rubycon99]

Orange is San Francisco's color. Giants, GG Bridge, Muni...

[@Trevelbond]

That brings back memories. Wish they were still able to do three car trains in the subway.

[@Fognrailz]

Soon, soon hopefully… WIth the new LRV4s

[@xde6010]

@@Fognrailz Muni Is Still Doing 2 Car Trains.

[@Fognrailz]

@@xde6010 they are but they are jam packed during rush hour. 3-Car trains could relieve the stress in the subway section.

[@Ur-Ring-Gadu]

I was born 1991 in SF and remember one time 5 trains were stuck together.

[@BrianWebb0222]

This is the muni I remember now... these were fun to ride, and I remember when they started phasing these out back in 97’

[@AMPProf]

Sad times

[@merccadoosis8847]

Hi Dan Am amazed this was filmed in 1991. The video quality is excellent and appears as if it had been filmed recently. Great to see those old views of Frisco. Thanx for sharing & keep up the good work.

[@AMPProf]

People forget This rail line is a starter of other rail lines over seas

[@hoonami139]

This is a great video showing the Boeing LRVs, shame I never got to ride them. I like how at 21:38 you can see the woodgrain interior panels, denoting this as a car Boston rejected from Boeing-Vertol.

[@micmac99]

I grew up in East Oakland, and rode these as a teenager and college student. I would take the N Macarthur AC Transit bus over the Bay Bridge. My McDonalds of choice was on Pine Street near the Bank of America HQ tower, which I think has been torn down. Best service I have ever had at a McDonalds.

[@rr7firefly]

The Boeing car interiors were slightly clunky, typically covered with Formica panels. Still, they part of life everyday for people living in SF before the Breda cars. I often rode the J Church.

[@rainbowrailroadcrossing7798]

Stupid question did these have door closing chimes?

[@munimathbypeterfelton6251]

They had bells that rang like an old-fashioned fire alarm.

[@The8BitNerd]

It’s cool to see how far the Muni Light Rail has come

[@davidjames8613]

at 7:22 an Septa PCC Trolley that I remember operating on several routes before Septa had got diesel buses

[@SefaradiTal]

At certain times, 3 cars were connected! I think fare for youth then was 35 cents or so…

[@munimathbypeterfelton6251]

Yes and yes!!

[@janettemcclelland2959]

Regular fare was like 85 cents?

[@SefaradiTal]

I can’t remember-this was the early 90s. By then, I already moved down the Peninsula.

[@janettemcclelland2959]

@@SefaradiTal I'm pretty sure it was 85 cents in the 90's. It was 60 cents during the 80's. I visited my dad's family in SF several times a year,and remember riding the raggedy Boeing's and the PCC cars before the Metro opened.

[@munimathbypeterfelton6251]

@@janettemcclelland2959 Yes, it was 85 cents for adults ages 18-64 until 1990-1991 when it was raised to $1 after Muni purchased the electronic fare boxes that could accept paper money (the previous generations of fare boxes couldn't do that because they were not properly technologically equipped) and installed them on all Muni vehicles from that point forward.

[@robfriedrich2822]

I'm from Germany and a long time I knew about Frisco the cable car on streets (usually it is in the mountains on a railway type track). Know I could learn, you have trolley bus (like we in Eberswalde), classic subway (like we in Berlin and Hamburg), tram (like we in different cities), tram-subway mix (like we in Hannover) plus bus (like we everywhere)

[@DarPower1]

Finally some boeing footage!

[@m0istl0la97]

Is 7:35 the boeing accident I keep hearing about in the Wikis [The Frankenstein train"]

[@JonnyQ408]

Nice video, I used to always ride all the Muni lines back in the 90's till I moved to San Jose. I miss those days.

[@learnthroughmusicandlyrics6361]

A bit of history at 18:52 and 19:38. Those island stops in the M-Ocean View's right-of-way became the platform stations we use today on 19th Avenue at Stonestown and Holloway/San Francisco State University, beginning in 1994. See the difference? :)

[@learnthroughmusicandlyrics6361]

I have been searching forever for images and footage of those ancient island stops, so thank you again Dan for showcasing their historicity here! :D

[@dlcluley]

You're welcome. Thank you for all the information you have added in the comments.

[@learnthroughmusicandlyrics6361]

My pleasure!

[@DarPower1]

Thats interesting. I always wondered when those platforms were installed. I had assumed when Muni Metro opened in 1980.

[@learnthroughmusicandlyrics6361]

19th Avenue & Holloway/San Francisco State University Station Platform: sheilaghidini.com/public-projects/muni/muni-1-ghidini014.jpg 19th Avenue & Winston/Stonestown Station Platform, with Boeing streetcar present: viewoftheblue.com/photography/sf1097/sf10975.jpg

[@californiamade5608]

Man those things look old. But I can imagine how new they were at the time. I love the new MUNI trains. I’ll miss the Bredas

[@FeelMyBirdie]

wow all this is way before my time

[@Chicagoguy1984]

Damn so many memories, I was a young kid in SF back then. As crappy as the Boeing's were I still have good memories riding them with my family. Shame only 2 or 3 MUNI Boeing LRVs are left , Rest were scrapped :(

[@johnmarks714]

I was 9 years old then. Never rode my first muni till 21

[@opwave79]

Ahh…high school days long gone!

[@mannysal1111]

Thanks Dan i love this footage of the boeing -Vertols

[@michelflorent1613]

BOIENG ET SUR DE BON RAIL MERCI POUR LA VIDEO

[@gregodessite]

I missed these LRVs, did not see any in 2002

[@munimathbypeterfelton6251]

That was the year that they all officially retired.

[@raydibiase9494]

Now these are the ones I remember tagging my name on... that white panel on the outside by the driver booth and in the middle was prime real estate for a black pilot or black ultra wide😎👌

[@nathanielcoleman5694]

SFMTA treated those LRVs like shit. Yeah they were prone to breakdowns and derailments but they could easily have been overhauled even 10 years into their lives! And what’s even more stupid (as well as ironic) is that they replaced them with cars that broke down even more! And now they have to replace THOSE cars as well! SFMTA must hold a grudge against faulty cars

[@janettemcclelland2959]

Those things were raggedy from day 1.

[@YoLikeRyder]

Interesting how they used to run the trolleys together as MU trains in the subway and then separate them outside to run on different routes.

[@munimathbypeterfelton6251]

Yeah, once the J-Church and N-Judah reach Church & Duboce and the K-Ingleside, L-Taraval, and M-Ocean View reach West Portal Station above ground after exiting the subway tunnel outbound, each of those five lines go their separate ways so they had to separate at those given points. Train consists could only consist of KLM or JN combinations, respectively, since the K, L and M enter the Muni Metro subway tunnel inbound at West Portal Station, and the J and N enter the Muni Metro subway tunnel inbound at Church & Duboce right before reaching Van Ness Station.

[@randomboxguy9320]

its weird seeing how much the city has chanded to now "Evict The Yuppies" Famouse quote from sf graffiti writer DEEN1

[@calvar0]

Wow I can't believe that time fly so quick I was born in 93' and still while I was growing up at the time they still had these transit so sad that they had to retire :(

[@Trainlover1995]

The Boeing LRVs were unreliable pieces of crap. It was a mercy kill.

[@basictransportenthusiast4386]

Unreliable yet they lasted about the same time as the breads which are considered reliable

[@franrc265]

I'm also born in '93. I remember as a kid, I preferred the look of the boeing trains and how you could open the top section of the windows on them, whereas the brendas did not have such a feature. I was sad when I stopped seeing them around 2002 :/

[@robfriedrich2822]

Is there a ticket valid for ALL public transportation inside San Francisco for a whole day?

[@evanstonbalce9588]

Yes, there is

[@kyyyuwu]

forest hill looks the exact same

[@Trainlover1995]

Ah, the Boeing-Vertol LRVs. Better known as GARBAGE.

[@lohphat]

Ah the days before SF even heard of the internet and tech bros...good times. I lived in West Portal between Forest Hills and West Portal stations 1999-2015 just as the Boeing cars were being retired. I never understood how the Breda cars were ever approved -- they caused a lot of road and foundation damage due to their excess weight. They never lasted their depreciation schedule. The taxpayers had to pay for new trains much sooner than planned.

[@bleepiestofbloops]

From what I've read, it doesn't sound like the Boeings were any miracle, either. Maybe they've finally got it right with the new Siemens cars.

[@m0istl0la97]

@@bleepiestofbloops siemens cars are improvements,whoeved they still have their door problems/pantograph problems/coupling problems

[@munimathbypeterfelton6251]

The advantages that the Bredas had over the Boeings were that they were slightly longer, so they could hold more passengers; they had air conditioning; they had four doors on each side--all of which had raisable staircases underground in the subway at/for stations platforms; and they didn't need a train operator present in the second car of a two-car train to operate the doors and raise and lower the stairs like the Boeings did. But because of their notable flaws as a fleet (heavy mass and loud rattling as they traveled up and down San Francisco city streets, their inability to triplicate or quadruplicate the way the Boeings could due to the Breda cars' three- or four-car consists causing power outages in the overhead wires needed to connect to the pantographs, and occasional sticky doors that rang out ear-piercing alarms whenever they malfunctioned), Muni opted not to renew Breda's contract when it came time for that fleet to be replaced in 2017 after 20+ years of service.

[@janettemcclelland2959]

When they had 2-car trains on the J...

[@janettemcclelland2959]

The train & bus & MagmaMusen #2 That's the only one,right? My last visit to SF,the L and M also were 1-car trains. Hopefully,they'll eventually go to 3-car trains on the N when the new Siemens cars get rolled out

[@DarPower1]

I don't think they ever had 2-car J's. The trains coming out of the portal is a NNJ, which will decouple. There's a shot of an N-train with the improper roll sign as J (maybe to prepare for coupling) approaching down Duboce.

[@janettemcclelland2959]

DarPower1 I vaguely remember seeing a few back in the Boeing era. And the N NNJ and KLM couplings.

[@matthewalvis9729]

Janette McClelland I actually saw a 2-car train on the J a couple days ago! I think it may be because the J and the K are being interlined right now.

[@angiejeffries9456]

Why did they have the duty from from back in time 😭!

[@flasheewheelez5307]

That’s the same type of train in Boston a long time ago

[@TheDylanJoyce]

Just like Boston!

[@dlcluley]

Charles Randolph Indeed. I got to see the Boeings in Boston once, but only got a couple of pictures. My understanding is that they liked the SF climate better.

[@TheDylanJoyce]

They derailed all the time! Now we have the Breda Type 8's very similar to the Bredas you have. Yours are a lot cooler though... Ours also have very similar traction motors to the ones used on the MTA's R-188s and R-143s. Don't mind me, I'm a bit of a train fanatic...

[@RRansomSmith]

Boston's Bredas are low floor though

[@Tom8201]

I never knew Muni had TTC 4472; most likely as a parts car

[@DarPower1]

Do you have anymore footage of the boeings?

[@dlcluley]

No, unfortunately that is the only west coast trip I have made. I did see the Boston ones once, but didn't get any video of them

[@angelycajeffries4107]

1991 they did not had screens in the sreet cars or buses

[@GoldenOne131]

Didn't I see them in Sister Act?

[@munimathbypeterfelton6251]

Yes.

[@TransitAndTeslas]

Why an airplane company shouldn’t have tried to build rail cars.

[@LucentLunarch]

Also where did you get the yard shots at 4:20 through 4:30 the market street railroad would love to preserve an original sf street car

[@dlcluley]

Everything from 4:01 to 4:30 was in a little yard area along Duboce between Market and Church st. Basically inbetween the back of the Safeway & the Mint. By the way, how do you pronounce Duboce?

[@learnthroughmusicandlyrics6361]

"Doo-bose"

[@dlcluley]

Thanks

[@RRansomSmith]

That's mint yard. It's an auxiliary yard

[@munimathbypeterfelton6251]

@@RRansomSmith Which has since closed.

[@east_bay_transit_nerd]

ngl these trains look pretty cool, sad to hear they were so terrible

[@Rubycon99]

Back before the city was completely ruined.

[@californiamade5608]

Rubycon99 it was always ruined it’s better now

[@Rubycon99]

@@californiamade5608 lmao whatever transplant

[@robfriedrich2822]

What did the driver exactly say to announce, that the tram terminates?

[@mannysal1111]

final stop thank you

[@LucentLunarch]

That's an old E-Union car in the back at 4:29

[@gripmann]

Nope, Milan interurban car #96

[@patrickgallagher1161]

what year were the Boeing's officially retired?

[@janettemcclelland2959]

Around 1999 or 2000,I think. The Bredas started in 1998.

[@learnthroughmusicandlyrics6361]

At the very end of 2001, with the final cars operating on the J-Church. Earlier in '01, as the Boeings became reduced heavily in number, they mostly operated on the L-Taraval, with the K, M, and N-lines having already become 100% Breda by the end of the year 2000. The Bredas began operating in December 1996 on the J-Church, then on the N-Judah in 1997 (with the N becoming the first Muni Metro route to be completely rid of the Boeings--in August 1998 upon the installation of the Advanced Train Control System underground, followed by the premiere of Muni's Proof-of-Payment aboveground passenger boarding system shortly thereafter), with the fleet officially taking over the Muni Metro at the beginning of 2002.

[@janettemcclelland2959]

1996? On the J? I thought the N was the first to get the Bredas. I visited SF 3-4 times a year back then,and always saw the Boeings. And I remember the tunnel getting closed down at night to install the ATC too.

[@learnthroughmusicandlyrics6361]

The J was the pilot route for the Bredas, since it only operates single-car trains. But the N was the first route to operate two-car Breda trains, and the first Muni Metro line to become fully converted to Breda operations--in August 1998. The Boeings still dominated the system from 1996-1998, with the Bredas steadily increasing operations in 1999-2000, matching the Boeings 1:1 with each fleet operating 50% of the Muni Metro during that time. Then by 2001, it was mostly Breda.

[@janettemcclelland2959]

Learn Through Music and Lyrics!!! OK. I never realized that.

[@hondacrvguy]

The sound a 23:38 sounded like audi

[@ThatTrainBoi]

Old-timey tram

[@Cristasphoto]

What was crime like on Muni back then?

[@JonnyQ408]

Crista Sadler I used to take the Muni back in the 80's to 98 the early 90's wasn't to bad but the mid to late 90's was really bad. I don't really remember the 80's as much, back than the M line had to be the worst with fights, than the K, J I don't the L, and N were not as bad.

[@Cristasphoto]

Jonny Q Thank you

[@DarPower1]

The J had some bad high school brawls, but besides that it was alright. M in the 90's was horrific though.

[@JonnyQ408]

Crista Sadler Your welcome, are you from the city? I moved out back in 98, to San Jose I never took any public transit here.

[@Cristasphoto]

Jonny Q Not originally but since 2000 Ive called Sf home. 😀

[@yuanxintan6162]

妈妈妈妈妈妈妈妈妈妈们你你你们慢慢嘛嘛

[@NobHillBorn]

Muni, just as I remembered it when I went to City College (although the video was made some years after I graduated).