German vs Baroque recorders? Which is REALLY better | Team Recorders

[@MariabelleAzemar]

Im sorry but I REALLY love how her shirt matches her eyes

[@aproposracer855]

Never noticed, pretty neat though

[@Rekless_Z]

Simp she married...

[@RavishingBeyond]

@@Rekless_Z A female simp? Really?

[@alfalfa8168]

not to forget her earrings

[@MariabelleAzemar]

@@Rekless_Z simp... ok but I’m a teenage girl so-

[@lauramcflymusica]

I felt cheated when I discovered baroque system. In primary schools we only play German because it's "easier". Now I play an alto baroque. Thanks for the video Sarah. Cheers!!

[@ClaireBEAUMARD]

Thanks, you tought me that I was trying to play "german notes" with my "baroque" recorder ! :P I'll go to bed less stupid tonight ! hahaha !

[@OO-ih6yb]

I started out on the German system but decided it will be better to play the Baroque recorder. Must say that moving from the German to the Baroque was very easy.

[@maria.maruseva]

Yes🤝

[@ripinpepperonies9754]

Yes🤝

[@drsjeltealma5156]

. I am waiting for a barok recorder.

[@VitalijKaramakov]

I wish i could say the same.... My transition is being very hard.... I dont intend to abandon the german system but i want to know both.... But still the baroque is being quite frustrating...

[@mirabilos]

I’m still having a hard time. That being said, 30 years of muscle memory are not easily overcome (even if I barely played in 20 of those years), but I now have access to enoug Soprano and Alto recorders in Baroque fingering that I really should concentrate on that. (Also, new notes we didn’t use in those pieces when I was little to learn, yay!)

[@bliz85]

Imagine buying a German soprano recorder, watching this video two days later and agreeing that the Baroque recorder is probably a better choice as it's more future-proof despite the odds of playing other types of recorders with the limitations being close to zero. Guess who's going to get a Baroque recorder?

[@saschaanderer6304]

omg same

[@meelliemoe]

Hahahaha that’s funny

[@amirrezashahmoradi3870]

Yeah that's me

[@TheStarclipse]

Same

[@nibler887]

if overcame me just yesterday.

[@isabelleblanchet3694]

I learned the German system in school, when I was 8 years old. They probably thought the F would be easier for young kids. When I got back to playing the recorder a few years ago, I thought myself the baroque recorder after reading about the difference between the two. It took maybe a day or two to get used to the baroque F, and now the German F feels weird.

[@therealzilch]

The only thing I use a German recorder for is when I'm playing two at once, where it's often useful.

[@thepossibles2149]

When I had recorder lessons as a kid, my parents bought me a baroque recorder by mistake (they didn’t know, there were different ones) only to find out, that the entire class played the German system and they had to buy me another one, because it sounded weird and to be honest, 6-year-old-me was too confused playing differently than everyone else. 16 years later, I bought myself a beautiful baroque tenor and I am very, very happy with that.

[@joshuathedank9661]

“Like an oboe and we wouldn’t want that” 😂😂😂😂😂

[@temasekgirl]

I started playing the recorder in primary school and I only knew about the Baroque fingerings when I watched your videos about a year ago. Then I just realised that in school, we were taught the German system. I wanted to try the Baroque fingering so I bought a new recorder. It was definitely challenging to do the F and F sharp - I kept doing the German fingering. But with practice, I feel more comfortable now playing on my Baroque recorder. I also realised the curved windway sounds way better than the straight windway. Your videos are very encouraging and a great place to learn. Thank you, Sarah! 😊

[@ForestedKingdom]

Yea I found my old recorder from primary and found out it's German style lol

[@kishascape]

I got one at a thrift shop not knowing what German fingering even was and thought everything was just baroque. So I thought my recorder was damaged when it didn't sound right.

[@BretNewtonComposer]

I have a German system Bass. It's an absolute beast of an instrument that is mostly decoration now.

[@zijdezacht3738]

When I started on the recorder, I didn’t know there were two “flavours”. I thought the difference was just having double holes. When I restarted again with a good brand recorder and with proper baroque bore, I was determined my F’s were like they ought be. In a few months my F’s sounded great, but I had developed a tennis arm. According to AAFAB in Utrecht, this is a typical problem with recorder players. So take it easy when you switch to baroque. There are a few therapists online who have a website with exercises so you can train your right arm (there are more tennis players than recorder players). Start slow, and with a small recorder. If needed, you can use a thumbrest. Two or three times a day practicing 5 minutes is better that 30 minutes in one go. Don’t worry, soon you’ll be able to use your middle finger like it should be... ;)

[@purposeinpresence4494]

Best random KZbin rabbit hole ever!

[@rya41209]

I've waited an eternity for this topic! Thank you!

[@astranoel895]

Just discovered your channel and I want to tell you that this video in particular has saved my life! I learnt the Baroque system in school (though of course was never told that) and only discovered that there were alternative ways to play F a few years ago when I started as a primary music teacher. But I never understood the issues about the different systems etc. Only my ears kept telling me that "hey something is not quite right with the tuning of this new fingering". I kept teaching my children anyway because they seemed to understand faster with the "easier" fingering. But now I really have to examine the kinds of recorders they're buying and make sure everyone stays Baroque! Thank you so much! You're very entertaining and engaging!

[@TyrionCypher]

I think the German system was never really designed to play much more than play in C major/ A minor. It was designed to be the first contact with an instrument.

[@VitalijKaramakov]

It was designed to have the same fingering system as the flute!!!! -.-

[@TheNighthorn]

@@VitalijKaramakov which flute? I think most white notes share same fingering. But high C, high D and most accidentals are completely different.

[@nathleflutiste]

The German/modern fingering is more logical. The fingerings are different, and if you know well your stuff it's not difficult to play #/b by playing with 2/3 covered hole.

[@argonwheatbelly637]

Someone I know bought my daughter a German one, and explained it away as recorders being unreliable. This was a person who also played flute, so... I corrected the situation, and even though it's easier to start for her little fingers, I practice on my tenor with her, so she sees that daddy has to stretch, too, and can still practice the same e,f,g,f,e without too much difficulty. She loves her nightly music lessons, and she's learning the names of the notes. Yes, she's on a soprano, so she's really associating fingering with the notes, which baffles her if I play alto; she hears the same note, but see me finger it differently. However, she's become used to it, is developing her ear, and we're starting to work on the staff (treble clef). Thank you so much for this video! Btw, I love the flute and the sax, and I do play the practice chanter, so I get different fingerings, but I also play guitar, and use different tunings all the time, so, variety, right? Ta!

[@stevewolfe3214]

It is so good you are playing with and encouraging her.

[@simonmarechal2455]

Cool, why nightly music lessons? Don't you mean eveningly?

[@RolandHutchinson]

I think Moeck used to make a German-fingered bass in their Rondo line. At least they still publish a fingering chart for it on their website. And of course back in the day, the Moeck Tujuflöten of all sizes could, I think, be had with either fingering.

[@billyt8868]

played bassoon. never thought i’d love the recorder so much. and suddenly realizing a bassoon is just a recorder with a reed.................. 🤔. then they added keys. oddly it was you talking about the Eb that made realize this.

[@tomswiftyphilo2504]

you could split the difference with a baroque bassoon!

[@Uquelele3000]

I have 2 recorders, one is German and the other Baroque. I must confess I always preferred the German system cause I've been taught with that one... But is is totally true that it has a lot of limitations.

[@gatozarin]

I bought my soprano without knowing it was german fingering 😭😭😭

[@cesarvidelac]

Hi Sara, I have some recorders and transverse flutes. I'm not a musician, just enthusiast, but some years ago I developed a neuritis of the radial nerve in my right forearm (because of diabetes), that made me quit practicing both transverse flute and recorder, i lost more than half of the strengh in my right hand. Now after exercising some years (weightlifting), I recovered most of the gripping strength but loose some fine dexterity, my pinky is still semi paralized. Playing the baroque seminotes is almost imposible, it's a lot easier for me to play a german one. Do you have any advice I could use to start practicing again? Some method that can improve my dexterity step by step, I would be so grateful. I am always learning a lot from your videos, although I am only an aficionado. Great video as always, hugs from Chile!!

[@heathermcdougall8023]

Ok Cesar. You have serious right hand weakness. Myfirst suggestion is an old YFL Yamaha flute. vey soft keys and easy to play and cheap. My second suggestion is expensive. Try an oboe - "conservatoire" style. Oboes are actually very easy to "press" the right-hand fingers on, and you don't have to accurate as long as you can get them on, the "pads" and "key system" all do it for you. The compass isn't alot more than the descant recorder, but much easier to find the notes with a poor right hand. If ou want ot persist with the recorder, I suggest, going back to the beginningnand order "Tune a Day" book 2.

[@fluffy_chickadee]

​@@heathermcdougall8023 Why would you suggest an oboe and not a clarinet? Just curious. I'm considering clarinet

[@heathermcdougall8023]

@@fluffy_chickadee The right hand on the oboe is easier to press the keys and the little finger is easier too and the position more natural. It's also thinner and easier to hold. The downside is the embouchure and getting decent reeds.Also the notes are the same, high up and low down, but they are NOT on the clarinet.

[@fluffy_chickadee]

@@heathermcdougall8023 wow thanks for that reply

[@davidnelsonblair2650]

Similarly, I've seen Native American-style flutes, six holes (no thumb hole). These are each tuned to the Pentatonic Minor scale in a particular key--fun for improv, but very inflexible.

[@lemonemmi]

I've made a few of those and oh dear! I've never really improvised anything before, but with those it's so easy to sound good. And that newly acquired confidence to improvise carried on to the recorder. And hopefully I can bring it to my main instrument as well, the piano. It really pays to learn and play multiple instruments. You pick up skills and knowledge that carries over very well.

[@Carna12345]

Some Native American-style flutes have only five holes and those are ONLY tuned to the pentatonic minor scale, but the ones with 6 holes can be a little more flexible than that--the ring finger on your left hand (3rd hole) is always covered to stay in pentatonic minor, but you can mix it up to make different notes! I've got a really weird one that's tuned to a diatonic major scale...it's basically a whistle that looks like a Native American flute but with less range (only an octave and a half). Trying to figure out what to play on it!

[@struckmb]

Welcome to the clarinet world. Here also exist two systems. The german and the international used Boehm system...

[@whitefawn4196]

Squidward has entered the chat

[@lollol-en9xx]

Well there are a few differences. The German system clarinet is older and is used in Germany and sometimes Austria. Professional players in classical orchestras in Germany and Austria always play on German system clarinets. And there is a third system: the reform boehm

[@thomasd9237]

Thank you for posting this ☺️

[@yngvildrthevoracious]

Thank you for making me realise my sixième (collège, years 11 to 14 usually) music teacher made us learn German fingering on Baroque recorders. It did take trying to remind myself of the F's heavy Belle et Sebastien main theme for realising as well. Press F to pay respects

[@richdavis4007]

Subbed and set the bell to alert me when your next performance occurs. I didn't know the recorder was a real instrument but now I do!

[@dougsinthailand7176]

We learned to play the Flutophone in grade school and I think the fingering is similar to that of a German recorder. Joy! I found a German recorder (plastic) here in Thailand.

[@JedoDre]

Thank you for existing. I keep having various questions about the recorder and I keep ending up at this channel for the answers.

[@yifeili4608]

This actually remind me of my primary school days where learning to play the recorder is an essential part of our music lesson, along with singing certain songs. That was in China and about 20 years ago. What we used were plastic recorders, and those were for the German system, which I had totally forgot or failed to noticed before I watched this! FYI primary schools in China use assigned textbooks so only several sets there, and in one state every single school uses the same thing. (I'd say 2 or 3 sets for the whole country maybe but not very sure). So this means millions of Chinese around my age actually learnt how to play a recorder in primary school to a certain level. I guess who ever designed our music textbook just believe that German fingering should be easier for kids, or maybe they are cheaper. Actually not many can play it properly in my class... Those plastic recorders were used a lot as a sword in fight though as you can imagine XD

[@Pibydd]

Don't hang me out to dry, but I play a lot of folk music, mostly in the keys of D and E minor. So I converted my recorder to open fingering. Still sounds like a recorder but plays like a tin whistle, plus of course it's got a lead-in note which is useful. So I can see the sense of the German system just like I can see the sense of Albert system clarinets.

[@birgitnoragourani5359]

Hi, This sounds interesting. I have a recorder with German fingering that I would like to be able to play like a tin whistle. Would you mind sharing how you converted yours, please?

[@9wyn]

Birgit Nora Gourani, if you have a soprano german fingering recorder, by permanently closing with a tape the thumb hole and the upper first hole (left index finger hole), you can play it as a tin whistle using the rest of the 6 holes.

[@jasonleonard9776]

I thought I was going mad playing in G with that F# being so sharp! I am now at piece and buying a baroque recorder. Enlightening.

[@DellaStreet123]

Sarah, if you're interested in my opinion: I think one should consider the German recorder an instrument of its own. Related to the original recorder, but not the same. Just like the tin whistle is not the same as a recorder, even though they are both tubes with finger holes and a fipple you blow into. Actually, in addition to the large fourth hole, Harlan's recorders had another thing in common with whistles: They were originally transposing instruments. The first recorder Harlan had made was an alto in E. Later, recorders in D and A were added. Until a German edict (Nazi German, actually) forbade the making of any new recorders pitched in anything but C and F. Hindemith's recorder trio for the Eutiner Musiktag is written for three transposed Harlan-type recorders. Which were better quality back then. Not only did Hindemith play one himself when the trio was performed for the first time, Friedrich von Huene also praised the original Hedwiga, which had a German fingering, and how well the third octave F sharp on the Hedwiga alto sounded. As you know, this note is difficult to play even on a recorder with baroque fingering as it requires covering the bell with one's knee. Or some kind of stand, whatever.

[@its_mi.]

I took recorder lessons for about two years in around 1st/2nd grade (don't really remember for how long exactly) and your videos make me wanna pick it up again after not having played it at all in like 11 or 12 years

[@ankavoskuilen1725]

At school I had one year of recorder lessons when I was 9. It was a german style recorder and of course I didn't get far so it sufficed. When I was 23 I had enough money to take lessons myself and I transferred to a baroque system recorder. It was very easy to adjust. I never stopped playing after that, still do. It is a wonderfull instrument. But now I also have started to play the violin, I think it is so easy if all the notes would be in the right order, like on a string. No fork grips! IDEAL!

[@alishermoshayi893]

i love to play everything xD i think both fingering systems have positive and negative things, so i use both, i choose the system depending on what im playing... much of the folk and asian repertoires is better to play using the german system while "traditional recorder european repertoire" feels more confortable in the baroque system.... some asian and folk tunes are easier to play in the baroque system and some western pieces are also easier in the german system.... so i dont really focus on the system, but on the aplicability! 😁

[@bobr0405]

I played soprano recorder in our church recorder orchestra for about 12 years. I started with Baroque recorder and after about ten years moved to German. I think it was only due to Irish whistle, which I started to play at that time. It was more natural to change these two instruments. I do not think F is easier on German or F# (of Fis as we call it) is easier on Baroque. These are just different movements which are of similar dificulty. It is even not so difficult to rebuild one to another with drill and a bit of photoplastic. (Do not try with wooden or expensive recorders. :))

[@heathermcdougall8023]

If you want to eventually move on to flute or oboe, the Baroque/English fingering is very much the right one and most advantageous to learn. Even the Bassoon follows it quite a lot, but watch out for that thumb there. I actually became a pianist and string player after learning the recorder really well, and learning to read music. The recorder is a wonderful, underrated instrument. I stillplay and have a mixture of better plastic and wooden recorders (esoecaiilytenors and trebles)

[@JeanClaudePeeters]

'esoecaiilytenors' Had two read that twice... 🤣🤣

[@Dreamscape195]

I so love watching people talk about things they're passionate about

[@Team_Recorder]

welcome to Team Recorder 😄❤️

[@willgalison]

Thank you Sarah!

[@kiu8179]

second video of you that I see and really enjoy it, I'll go with baroque, thanks for guide me.

[@Koriyama]

Edgar Hunt (in 'The Recorder and Its Music) suggests that Harlan had erroneously believed that the F should have been in tune with 012345 and "believed that Dolmetch's ear rather inaccurate" (p. 123). The whole German/baroque phenomenon rests on a guitarist who, without knowledge of the recorder, created a system based on "this stupid mistake [and] was the beginning of recorders 'with German fingering', which are still manufactured in large numbers ... except, fortunately, in England" (ibid.). Here in Japan, both systems are used. My child's teacher taught the 012345 fingerings while the kids were using baroque instruments!

[@Hyeonchan1]

It is not the important thing... but once upon a time Moeck made german system bass recorder (I know it because I already have it).

[@LordVltor]

Learned German system in school - we're talking about mid 90s -, never ever knew there were different flutes NOR another fingering system altogether. Only recently, when I decided to get back playing an instrument (I was in a wind band which I dropped out from due to time constraints), deeming my saxophone too bulky, and a concertina too expensive to just give it a try, I picked the recorder as my "main" instrument. So I got back playing the "old, boring, classic" German Soprano. Had bought an Alto too, years ago. Lovely. Wanted a Tenor, though, and couldn't find one with German fingering. Buying a "cheap" Soprano with Baroque fingering to "test" the system, accidentally got a Sopranino (because Amazon descriptions, very often, are translated extremely badly by people who have no idea about the topic they are translating). So, I decided to get a full set of recorders (in ABS/plastic, 'cause I can rough them up and be less concerned about maintenance), from sopranino to bass, but... they do not seem to exist with German fingering! So I started learning Baroque. After 30 years playing German, must say Baroque is counterintuitive on some passages (going from E to F, as to say my main issue, where German still feels superior), but many melodies became easier, and even high notes feel... easier to play. Now that I got to know it, I do think Baroque *is* someway superior to German... I just have to re-set 30 years of "bad" habits - and get my new full set of recorders!

[@Chris.Brisson]

In 1990 my mother toured a recorder factory in Germany, and she brought back for me a very fine wooden recorder she had purchased at the factory. I loved the gift, but whenever I'd play the recorder the F would be so out of tune I could not stand it. In my mind this instrument must have been a factory reject, so I tossed the recorder. Many times over the coming years my mother would talk about this recorder she had carried all over Europe for me, like it was the most precious gift she had ever given me. I never told her I had tossed it. A few years ago I came to learn that German fingering differed from Baroque fingering,. Doh! I laughed and I cried when I realized I had tossed my most precious gift in vain.

[@amj.composer]

I would simply never toss a gift in the first place.

[@Chris.Brisson]

@@amj.composer at one point in my life, I relocated, and all of my worldly possession needed to fit in the bed of a compact pickup truck. Difficult decision were made about what to keep.

[@amj.composer]

@@Chris.Brisson oohh fair enough :(

[@RolandHutchinson]

Don't be too hard on yourself. You did good.

[@RobertSababady]

Sarah - charming as usual and the video is full of lots of "useful" information ;) Love the summary "You've taken one problem and just shifted it somewhere else". Brilliant!

[@RolandHutchinson]

Actually, if one isn't trying quite as hard as Sarah is to offer even-handed opinions, what the German system does is to take a single problem that isn't really very problematic at all and shift it to at least three other places in such a way that it becomes a significantly worse problem in all of them.

[@thcloud89]

I’m really wanting to learn tenor recorder as a hobby & played saxophone for years. I was thinking about German style since the fingering is so similar, but you’ve convinced me to adjust.

HAHAHA OF COURSE IT WAS A GUITAR PLAYER!! 😂 (another guitar player here) I had no idea about these two systems, so when I switched from a plastic Yamaha to my new Moeck wooden recorders today, I was so confused and had to figure out new fingerings by trial and error.. Now it all makes sense!! And yay, my new recorders have the baroque system, phew!! Thank you, Sarah!

[@matthew._.schreiber]

I thought I had a baroque recorder! It turns out, after 4 years of playing it, it’s a German! THAT’S why my tone was always off! Thanks for the wonderful vid!

[@rafaelrandom500]

Lol

[@sksskkskssks9830]

Same!! I just bought 2 recorders since my old recorder was old and it was a German. But im a pretty quick learner and im pretty sire I can get used to baroque.

[@chriscordingley4686]

Excellent. Everything I need to know. DId baroque as a kid. Gonna stick with it for a new purchase 60 years later!!

[@schan5401]

Note that the Trinity recorder exams only allow Baroque recorders to be used. The ABRSM and LCM recorder exams are silent about the types of recorders that can be used.

[@RolandHutchinson]

Indeed it was Edgar Hunt of Trinity who in the 1930s persuaded the German recorder makers to start producing inexpensive English-fingered recorders for use in UK schools. It figures that Trinity would be continue to be very specific on this point, since Hunt worked very hard to oppose the adoption of German fingerings in British schools.

[@davidshelow8869]

Thanks, Sarah. After watching several of these, the question about German vs. Baroque came up naturally. So, how bout this: by "folk music" our friend Peter had in mind mostly tunes in C, which will use F natural a lot more. If you play tunes in G and D (Irish and Scottish, for instance), the F# will be more important. I am watching these instead of practicing; do I get some extra credit anyway?....maybe?

[@WulfeTan]

Where I grew up, schools only used the German system, Im now upgrading my instrument and suffering porting over to Baroque system now. 😅

[@DanielLDE]

I actually have to use both systems. I play German medieval bagpipes (NOT the Scottish Great Highland bagpipes!) which usually come with German fingering. So whenever I practice a new song I want to focus on the fingering and not on balancing breath and arm pressure or lifting the heavy wood and steel bagpipes, so I first practice on a recorder with the same (i.e. German) fingering. Now I also play in a medieval folk rock band and since I thought I already knew how to play the recorder anyway, I also agreed to play the recorder there as well and ran into the tuning discrepancies you mentioned, so I also bought baroque recorders. Now I play the German style recorders for practicing my bagpipes and some songs in C major or similar scales and the baroque style recorders for recorder songs in other scales.

[@johannesschmitz6370]

I have to questions if you have the time to answer: 1. Are there not German medieval bagpipes that have baroque fingering layout, maybe it would be easier to have a common layout? 2. Does your band use specific "recorder-friendly" scales when you are using your baroque recorder? Because some keys require more "awkard" fingerings on a C or F recorder, or does it not matter to you anymore?

[@jenskreibach9424]

Since I started again playing the Recorder after 45 years I did so with the baroque system. I instinctly tried to play the german system I learned as a kid but I got used to the baroque fingering now and it was the right choice.

[@veroabel2639]

thank you for the wonderful info Ma'am! I will be using Baroque Recorder Flute now.

[@markandoyo2204]

I have a Baroque one, unmistaken for B at the thumb hole indicated👍 as though not needed for myself into the German Recorder complexities as my fingers can works even the hardest ergonomic labours I can striving to get ease👍

[@SeanChay]

Remind me of Pythgorean vs Equal Temperament tuning. Like the F you mentioned, it's exactly the key point of the tuning matter. So ya, so much more to learn from a recorder perspective. Appreciate it!

[@HimanXK]

Haha, the key point ;)

[@baturbaslar]

Good points. I think one of the reasons why german fingering is still around and sells is because schools around the world prefer it simply because most students (and teachers of course) won't go beyond C mayor and perhaps F mayor at least for a few years - if they have more than a couple of years of music aducation - and probably won't play the recorder again after finishing school, so a linear instrument is easier for that short period.

[@lilithdiabolos]

The recorder I learned playing with during primay school, was one that didn't even have the double holes, which was very confusing already, because others in my class had the german ones with double holes. But learning that there are even different ones with the double holes really blows my mind. o.O

[@DellaStreet123]

Many recorders that are literally "baroque" recorders, i.e. built during the baroque period, did not have double holes. You had to rely on your ear and on muscle memory to get the sharps right. Double holes are a blessing in that regard.

[@pkwork]

Now I finally understand the difference! I am an amateur saxophonist (as in I love it and have been playing for about 60 years now) and started with baroque and couldn't figure out what I was doing wrong on my most recent recorder. Opps.... German, not baroque.

[@yosnah867]

Used to play on german but i realized how hard it is too use on passages with more accidentals so i got a baroque recorder and i never regretted it one bit

[@florentintise]

Baroque for me. Always. Thanks for sharing 🙋‍♂️

[@idraote]

Hello Sarah, this was a very interesting video. Reading here and there, I get the impression that baroque fingering is always better. The real reason German fingering hasn't disappeared yet is that school teachers can be... let's say "set in their habits". Also, most of them in most schools are not going to teach any recorder tune that is not extremely basic. As a consequence, manufacturers of cheap recorders will always go for the German fingering because it is the one that actually sells. Personally I got rid of my old German soprano all too happily and got my Yamaha 300 instead.

[@danialejandrino]

That moment (0:42 ) when u peacefully watching Sarah and then a suddenly wild chromatic scale attacks :0

[@RoxannSouci]

Too funny! 🤣

[@DKay-sy8xu]

I received a good wooden instrument with german fingering. Is it possible to modify the hole size to make it baroque?

[@chrisnurczyk8239]

Thank you Sarah for an intelligent and concise explanation of this matter. I played recorder (Baroque fingering) as a child & adolescent, and fell out of playing at that time. I'm working at picking it up again. Now, as a science teacher retiree, I find myself with little formal musical training working part-time in a parochial school and leading the kids (pre-school to 8th grade) in singing and music appreciation (no one else to do it - talk about the proverbial deer in the headlights!). The principal wants me to teach our 2nd & 3rd graders basic recorder. A generous donation of Baroque recorders by Chicago's classical WFMT radio (Baroque type) is making this possible. Dire predictions on-line about why German fingering is necessary for teaching children now do not faze me. I'm subscribing to your channel, will surely watch more. Thanks for your info!

[@RolandHutchinson]

Anyone who says German fingering is necessary for teaching children is speaking out of pure ignorance. How has your class gone?

[@tannerlong9893]

I recently started playing recorder and am really enjoying it. I started with a Yamaha soprano (German fingering) and loved the ease of the E F G transitions. Got a German style alto and like it too and it works for me since I generally play in F major, G minor and Bb major on it. I’d be happy to get a baroque alto at some point in the future though

[@duey36]

Thank you so much my son is moving up and his teacher said the German fingering is preferred but I can find one in my town. So we are.planning to buy a Yamaha tenor baroque recorder.

[@epicme7032]

I didn't know i bought a German one 😔 but I'll just Love this anyway

[@TeacherGamer1981]

Dear Sarah, all of your observations are focused around your point of view as a professional musician. From a Music Education teacher point of view (both traditional and Waldorf pedagogy) I can tell you from the start a few things : 1. Children never find it easier to press more fingers at once, I always teach them the notes starting with high C (octave hole and high c ) and 2. How many beginners you think will move past that high C towards those sharps you talk about ? The point is to get them closer to practicing instrumental music for the fun of it. And if we talk about a crowd of 30 pupils (In Romania that's a normal number for a class), the German system is easier to understand and also makes the whole abstract matter of musical pitch and musical notes easier to grasp. Thank you for reading. Stefan OPREA , music teacher

[@Team_Recorder]

HI Stefan, thanks for your message - it's always nice to hear from other music teachers and share experiences. I am a music teacher too - I've been teaching beginners in full classroom settings as well as individuals for 15 years now, so I'm not pulling this out of thin air ;) My students have managed just fine with the Baroque F fingering, and I feel confident in advocating that as an educator. I agree that music lessons are about instilling a joy for music in the student - and I strongly believe it can be fun on German or Baroque system!

[@davidmdyer838]

An F# on a Baroque-fingered recorder is still sharp and ideally, you need to add part of the pinky. I did learn at first on a German instrument and it wasn't difficult to switch to Baroque and eventually become a professional player. When I first learned the recorder I was very little, coming up from the flutophone, and I think that using a German instrument for a few months did no harm. On the other hand, I recently bought some German system instruments because if you play two recorders at once, the German system instruments allow an extra, in-tune note not available on the Baroque instrument (which I really prefer to call English since actual Baroque instruments did not historically use the system we use today) by using your left pinky. So in my mind, it does have a legitimate use.

[@FlyingOttoman]

I started with a recorder with german system to transfer it later to my medieval bagpipe which uses the same fingering and it helped me a lot :)

[@desastersuse4617]

Hello, I play both fingering Systems. I got two bassrecorder from Adler/Heinrich 196? 25€ Ebay-Kleinanzeigen and Moeck 1958 in german fingerung. Both as an experiment without great expertations to the Sound. And I was pretty surprised about the nice sound. I'm not playing in an ensemble, just for me and feeling good and i'm happy with them. My soprano recoder a Moeck Rottenburgh with baroque fingering and i love the accurate tuning of it. The baroque bass recorder i tried bevore where not playable for me because of dwarflike hands and fingers. Switching beetwen the fingering systems is no Problem. SPECIAL THANKS FOR ALL YOUR WONDERFULL VIDEOS. I LOVE YOUR ESPRIT AND HUMOUR. There no day without: Hello I'm Sarah and i'm a recorder player.....Love from Germany

[@cedricpicard297]

Good to know that clarinets aren’t the only instruments who rival two systems!

[@MyBlueZed]

All I could see was that the recorder you were rubbishing is the very model I have! 😭

[@rmanpojo8485]

I play recorder for some years, starting at school; only baroque fingering.

[@jcortese3300]

It also makes no sense to mess with an instrument to make it function as an unnecessary gateway instrument to something else. If you really want to play a flute or a clarinet, and treat the recorder as a stopover on the way to that, then ... just buy a damned flute or clarinet and start off with that. It makes zero sense not to do so. About the only instrument that makes sense to learn regardless of what else you play is piano just because it makes understanding complex music and theory easier, but even then, it's not a stopover between you and whatever you really want to play, just an aid in understanding complex music and theory. The whole idea that someone wants to play Instrument X but has to learn Instrument Y first is nonsensical unless there are financial barriers. Even then, it's still best to just go straight for the one you want if it's ergonomically sound.

[@Fiddling_while_Rome_burns]

A bit of research you could have done was ask an actual German recorder player why they think the German is better. To answer three of the points you made. I play the bagpipes, they have the same fingering as the German recorder which makes every song I know directly transferable, in fact I only took up the recorder at first as a tool for learning new songs for the pipes. What's more an awful lot of medieval reed instruments have this fingering system, so I can play them as well. A German recorder player would have a whole world of instruments open to them not available to the baroque. What transferable skills does a baroque give you? Second you can directly transfer to the tin whistle, you simply have to not use your left forefinger and use your right little finger, then it plays identically to a German recorder. Finally a good range of German recorders exist. I have one in G, I don't know of many baroque ones being made in G. Also I have one in C A=415, made of beechwood and in medieval style. German recorders are quite common across Europe if you shop around.

[@dragonania]

I've started with German system, now I'm trying to learn baroque on alto and only one problem I can clearly feel is that my fingers have to be much flexible and it really hurts when I can't reach the holes XD German system is maybe easier, but to my mind if you start playing on recorder with baroque system from the beginning you don't have to change your fingering habits later.

[@malahamavet]

If you play a soprano baroque it's not so uncomfortable but any big flute thing needs the paper's grip. At first it's weird but you get used to it, good luck!

[@denzelvanegas4251]

where shall i buy a Tenor German fingering? i search and i couldnt find it

[@PaulDeCamp]

Yes, I have heard that there is a German type of fingering because I have seen the fingering charts. But I have been raised playing the traditional one I have used since I was 8 years old. No reason to stop now. I honestly have never seen a German type for sale here is the US back when I was a kid. That was before the interweb thingy. Though I am loathe to make this an echo chamber, I must wholeheartedly agree with your premise that in the end it is much preferred to go traditional for the reasons you stated. Learning the instrument as a child, I remember the forked F fingering confounding me for maybe a day. Once I learned how easy it was to sharpen the F, I got over my trauma and just started to play. I have been doing ever since.

[@tobiasrobinson4381]

I never really knew there were so many drawbacks to the german system (which i learned)

[@jasperkok8745]

Hmm, as a kid (late primary and all through secondary school) I played the recorder for years (in my late forties, I don’t really do anymore). And I always thought that the only difference between German and Baroque system recorders was that the latter had two small holes at the ring finger and little finger holes, not the smaller fifth hole on the former. Obviously, I did know about the different fingering. For a moment I thought I used to use Baroque fingering on German system recorders (I still have my recorders - 2 soprano/descant and 1 alto/treble recorder) but I just checked and they are Baroque system recorders. A bit of a relief actually, as early music has always been the era I’m most into.

[@1cleandude]

I think they did that with the clarinet too!🙏

[@jinwoo3614]

What is your recorder name? I want to buy the german one pls answer me

[@СветланаАкинина-р9ъ]

I'm not going to play classical concerts, but anyway want a B recorder (I've got a G one). Will play both and decide which one is better for me. Maybe some compositions will be more comfy for one flute, others - for another.

[@sashakindel3600]

I stand by the opinion that it's mildly useful to have recorders of varying fingering systems around, including the German system. Sometimes not having to fork low F makes easy passages that would otherwise have been very tricky. Sometimes you have a use for an alternate fingering for E in the first and second octaves for the sake of timbral trills, which the German system gives you. I can't speak for any other models, but my Yamaha German soprano can produce a third octave C# without having to cover the bell, which can be used in a trill with the D above. It also has a very pleasant E/G# multiphonic. On the other hand, sometimes you need to trill between G and Ab in the second octave, in which case the baroque way is smoother. Most of the other fingering differences between baroque and German make no difference in my experience, as someone who has played both systems a lot. As for intonation discrepancies, I have found that those exist between any two recorders from the same system, to no particularly lesser degree than they exist between recorders of different systems. I *always* need to listen for the need to make adjustment no matter what I'm playing and what I'm tuning against.

[@DellaStreet123]

Friedrich von Huene, one of the pioneers of the relaunch of the recorder in the 20th century, pointed out the same: With German fingering, you can play third octaves C# (or F#, in the case of an alto recorder in F) without covering the bell. Third octave F# on an alto is needed for Bach's Brandenburg Concerto No. 4, which is why Von Huene insisted that the recorders be able to play it. To put it with him: "It [the recorder devised by him] was sufficient for Hindemith, and it was sufficient for us." Maybe the German fingering's bad rep is partially due to the fact that superior quality recorders are no longer built with German fingering. This used to be the case at one point however, the Herwiga, named after recorder maker Herwig, was a gem with German fingering. I hated the recorder I had as a child, a Moeck entry-level soprano with German fingering and no double holes -- and yet we were expected to play pieces with up to four sharps or flats with it. That's not fair.

[@sashakindel3600]

@@DellaStreet123 I figure the fact that the original rationale for the German system doesn't seem to take the recorder seriously has fed a self-perpetuating cycle where recorderists and recorder makers aren't inclined to take the German system seriously in return.

[@DellaStreet123]

@@sashakindel3600 This is quite possible. Harlan definitely knew what he did, but decades later he tried to shift blame for the "faulty" German system to the Bärenreiter company, which used to be big in business selling both recorders and sheet music for recorders -- and he kept revising his story over and over again, which makes me think that Peter Harlan might have had the same issues with the truth his brother Veit did.

[@vacuumlover1]

This is why most mass produced clarinets use the French system vs the German system

[@kbsydney]

Thank you so much for this video! I (like so many others) learnt the recorder in school (back in the 1990s), using the german style. My step-daughter plays the french horn, but is also now learning the recorder at school. I had a go on it and couldn't work out why the scale sounded slightly off, then realised she has a baroque recorder. Until now, I never even knew there two different styles!

[@mattbounds]

As a celtic folk player, making a recorder a folk instrument by changing the F# to an F is absolutely bonkers to me. Almost everything in celtic folk music is in D, E Dorian, or G, all of which need that F#.

[@etbilgen]

Look where quarantine has brought me to. I found my old Yamaha recorder and wanted to learn it on the side of my guitar.. And realized that I've been using a german system recorder. What a shame xD

[@stevewolfe3214]

Switching from German system to Baroque recorder actually was very difficult for me, decades later. I had a mental block I think. In America, the "flutaphone" certainly caught the K-6 grade-school teachers.. and I now see them marketed as a "pre-band" instrument. I didn't at the time, but I was only 8 to 11 years old at the time. sigh. The flutaphone certainly fit my small hands at the time, but I wish they would have taught baroque system. A Yamaha y24b is almost the same cost as a flutaphone and related german fingering instruments for children. It even comes in colours.

[@valbastiancontraio2795]

I am Italian and in schools they use the German system , I started learning the recorder ( I was 14 ) on that system out teacher was British , after many years I picked up the recorder again and learnt the Baroque system , by the way I play jazz ( not on this channel though )

[@ubizmo]

I confess that I often don't bother using the pinky on the Baroque Fnat. On some recorders, the difference in pitch is negligible, especially if I'm not playing in a recorder consort (which I almost never do anyway). When I get a new recorder, the first thing I check is whether I can cheat on the Fnat.

[@TheNighthorn]

Same here, I rarely use pinky for tenor. It's a bit hard to reach and the pitch is 'okay' without it. But I do use pinky for alto one because the pitch is quite different.

[@TenorCantusFirmus]

@@TheNighthorn If the note is long, sometimes the pinky is necessary. But I own five plastic "Baroque" System instruments (Yamaha sopranino, soprano/descant and alto/treble, Aulos tenor and bassett) and the Fs/B flats perfecly works in all of them without the need of it, expecially in faster passages and regardless of size and brands.

[@MsBettyRubble]

So nice to see this this morning. Great video as usual. I'll stay away from German tuning.

[@wollnette2195]

When I was 7 my mother and I learned to play the recorder together (mother and child class). I played on a baroque and she on a German recorder (hers even hadn't double holes) but that was never a problem and I always thought it was just a different system. Until recently, when I started playing again and bought a new recorder (baroque of course).

[@wwelti]

FYI: I just checked out second hand bass recorders (here in Germany), and there are LOTS of German fingering bass recorders in this market. Actually I'm looking for baroque fingering so I have to watch out not getting a model with German fingering. Best Regards, Wilfried

[@ОлегБобров-в7ъ]

I think, that there is a lack of information about the pentatonic scale. If you are a beginner you can just use it in CM/Am and think about Baroque/German later.

[@revjohnlee]

I learned to play a saxophone in jr. high school. I had only the vaguest notion of what a recorder was. Years later, I found a soprano recorder. I know now that it was a baroque fingering but I had no idea then. I don't even remember where I found it but I decided to play around with it. I found it was not too difficult because most things were a near analog of the sax fingerings I had learned. I eventually discovered where it was off for the F and experimented until I found the "right" fingering. It took me all of a day or two to get used to it. I don't get why it would be considered hard. Now, many decades later, I have saxes running from bass through sopranino. They spend all their time sitting in their cases. I have recorders from sub cotra bass through garklein. I play with them much more often. I am not a "good" musician but I aspire to mediocrity some day. The only one that is completely hopeless is the garklein because its holes are closer together than the widths of my fingers. My cat celebrates that.