Scars & Stories [Planescape: Torment vs. Torment: Tides of Numenera]

This is a total-spoiler analysis and critique of Black Isle's Planescape: Torment and its years-later successor from InExile, Torment: Tide of Numenera. It goes into great detail to highlight what makes the first game unique, and the challenges posed in trying to follow up such a legendary role-playing title.
[Planescape: Torment] 00:23
[Torment: Tides of Numenera] 1:00:54
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/ noahcaldwellgervais

[@Darleer]

"Every electronic world I saved as a kid was a reminder that my own was still broken", beautifully observed and written Noah!

[@DamianSzajnowski]

Or is perfect all the way and us and our observations broken...?

[@psyopawarenessmonth2100]

@@DamianSzajnowski what's the difference if we all experience the world through our own observations

[@troyaarav9971]

instablaster...

[@opalaa5874]

@@DamianSzajnowski no it's fucked

[@stickershock66]

The quote is at the end of the "Levar Burton reading Navigators" portion of this essay, around minute 52.

[@BankaiEdje]

I spent nearly two years of my life designing for Torment Tides of Numenera. Your interpretation of the final work is deeply reflective of what it was like to make it, cluttered, conflicted, but in its own obtuse way, beautiful. Thank you for taking the time to experience it.

[@Rilatm]

I just want you to know, I absolutely loved Tides of Numenara. I never did get a chance to play Planetscape, so maybe I might have a skewed opinion, but your game, though not perfect, was pretty damn amazing, for all its flaws.

[@fy8798]

Beautiful and conflicted is, in my opinion, the best way to sum up your work, then. I do not regret backing it :)

[@EldritchAugur]

There was some very good ideas in there. The Bloom was excellent and one of the best RPG towns I've seen in quite a while.

[@alroth1035]

You guys made a great game all the same! I wish more people would see it for what it is, more than for what it failed to be for them.

[@SaiNarayan_]

Thank you so much for your hard work and dedication. I deeply appreciate and love Tides, its one of my favorite game worlds of all time. Thank you.

[@ganjaericco]

Regarding Annah 38:38 Annah's torment isn't her love for the Nameless One. She's tormented by her inability to form healthy relationships because of a poor upbringing by an abusive step-father that raised her to be a worker. As a result she constantly puts herself in emotionally abusive situations driven by an eternal loneliness. As a result Annah has no one, so she's clinging to people she shouldn't while simultaneously lashing out as a defense mechanism. (See the strange dichotomy of Annah working with the collectors and dustmen, but acting so passionate) I think Annah's torment is most commonly misunderstood because people don't dwell on it beyond the surface, and emotionally abusive relationships, even those among yourself, aren't so obvious. It's easy to write off Annah's love for the Nameless One as a convenience or a trope, but it's another thing to ask 'why' and realize that there's perhaps a lot more subtlety to Annah's character than the mere dialogue can suggest. I think one of the biggest points is Pharrod's death, he doesn't need to die because you can literally never go back and see him again. Yet he does need to die functionally for Annah's development as a character because it leads to this strange situation were Annah decides to stay with you. There's no good reason for her to stay with you, but it's heavily indicative that you're the only thing she has left- a stranger that she met a few days ago and she can't help but cling to that because she's scared of being alone. She'll take anything she can get. I can't quite put it into words just how much depth there can be to Annah's character, because it's depth can be as deep as your thoughts at any given time, and I don't think I quite did her character and arc justice, but I hope I shed a little light on why Annah is one of my favourite characters in the game and I'm disappointed that people write her off as the 'weakest' written companion because they simply haven't thought about the implications of the character. In Planescape: Torment, even one of the most undeveloped and unwritten characters has this much complexity behind them. It really is an S-tier RPG. Written by Twisted Scarlett on /watch?v=xJnFHKU3FEA I very much agree.

[@Beregorn88]

I wondered why this comment felt familiar...

[@Acesahn]

Damn, that's way deeper then I ever thought but it adds up.

[@moleshaman3040]

I definitely agree with your analysis and she’s my favorite character in the game .

[@Bleilock1]

Man, you basically described BPD (borderline personality disorder) in a beautifully written comment about planetscape torment Woah Ty sir

[@EdMcStinko]

I remember hanging out in the sensorium for hours just to listen to the stories. Thats what makes this game unique; combat, equipment and spoils are all secondary. I became ridiculously emotionally invested.

[@JoannaFalkowska]

Same. One of the most memorable gaming experiences for sure.

[@ryanc5572]

Every time I hear "I shall wait for you in Death's halls, my love," I get a shiver through my spine. Deionarra was my favourite story in the game, so tragic and selfless in equal measure. Such a masterpiece of a game.

[@ethanphilpot7643]

Playing it right now. My absolute favorite part so far is the Brothel of Slating Intellectual Lusts. This game is some of the finest writing I've ever read. Better than many novels

[@DodderingOldMan]

Same! Some of the writing in The Sensorium is just amazing. I usually have very little patience for writing in games, even when the writing is objectively good, but the writing in Torment goes beyond merely 'good'.

[@HAHA4625]

@White-Van Helsing The public sensorium has a lot of other different stories to go through. Like the video mentioned there's things like slowly dawning dread, lycanthropy, fear etc

[@Birmanncat]

[Truth] On a very personal level I appreciate this essay more than you can imagine. Thank you.

[@SomeYouTubeTraveler]

When your "weakest character arc" belongs to "a part-demon princess to a kingdom of trash at the center of the universe," that's still some friggin unique writing!

[@megamike15]

@Paraponera the romance is barly a romance. it felt more like an after thought.

[@vladkornea]

​@@megamike15 It's brief because sex would be fatal to her (her half-fiend blood would boil). Her "father" just died and her "kingdom" is literally trash; she has no attachments to Sigil, and nothing she'd rather do than travel the planes with this interesting inspiring kindred freak.

[@NathanWubs]

@@vladkornea The second part however is that, it was not finished. Sadly and certainly the game itself is incomplete, it's beautiful and amazing, but things were missing that needed more story, more text. Sadly things had to be dropped in the end. Some of the later fan patches restored some content which I think you get these days as well in the newer versions. But it still not done, sadly some fell through the wayside because of that, stories in minds that probably have disappeared over these long 20+ years.

[@howlrichard1028]

​@@NathanWubs Rare is the game the releases being truly complete. If you were to give the developers more time and resources, they'll tie up some loose threads, but in the process new ones will appear that weren't there before, or that didn't feel as relevant in comparison. If they keep trying, the game simply never releases. Ultimately, what was released has to be considered a complete, finished product, otherwise, the idea itself of an unfinished game stops making sense.

[@TheTurnipKing]

The key to Annahs Torment I think, is that it's yet to come. As the game ends, it's just beginning

[@g.boychev9355]

My favourite ending is where you WILL YOURSELF OUT OF EXISTENCE USING NOTHING BUT THE POWER OF YOUR CONCENTRATED WILL. I literally just stood there in awe, staring at the screen for a while.

[@taz0k2]

Haha man! That is awesome! PST is not the only game that has incredibly over the top stuff, but it's the only game I know that make it believable.

[@Brandelwyn]

that leaves your companions dead though

[@ight_of_heart]

Wait could I do that all along?

[@chazzwozzio]

@@Brandelwyn isn't there a whole faction focused on that?

[@Optiganone]

You can do it in real life too

[@sequorroxx]

I was so proud when I discovered Nordom and Vhailor. And Dakkon did not stand out compared to the other patrons in the bar either until you get to know him. The amount of things to miss showed the courage of Black Isle Studios.

[@bkhalberdcleaves4299]

Noah, you are the freaking man. Nobody else on KZbin or anywhere else offers anything close to the same profundity of insight into the games they highlight like you do. Ever since I first saw your DOOM 2016 analysis your vids have been my most anticipated on this platform. You are an inspiration to an aspiring creator and a great storyteller and commentator in your own way. Thank you for being so awesome. Rock on.

[@peri5966]

MatthewMatosis?

[@joaquinpaul7012]

Hbomberguy?

[@ordinarytree4678]

@@joaquinpaul7012 Hbomber is similar but he doesnt cover as many games as Noah.

[@QuestionmarkTimes2]

@@ordinarytree4678 Harris is not even close to Noah's level, in terms of writing.

[@ericgallagator]

I agree, he is so good at finding the themes the writers intended, deconstructing the actual gameplay, and overall linking a project to the history that proceeds it and follows it as well. He singlehandedly inspired my replay of the Dragons Age series but with the breadth of knowledge he offered in his retrospective. He has such a unique view and I really try to soak it all up to enrich my own gameplay.

[@Myxril]

"What can change the nature of a man?" This game.

[@m3ntal_c0re]

I tried to play the enhanced edition found it pretty boring somehow...Didnt really get into it tho. Seems to start a bit slow. But i kept the name 😋

[@chonchon911]

Your 'rule of three' comment at the end was prophetic considering Disco Elysium was just around the corner.

[@RannekoPlays]

The fundamental question that is meant to be at the heart of Torment: Tides of Numenera is "What does one life matter?" It was interesting in the video seeing some of the early quests and realising that is at the heart of them: The robot who you help have children at the cost of its own life The father trying to save his daughter dooming countless girls to slowly turn into her The slaver using a child to help control her own tidal surges The martial artist seeking a contest that in its ideal state will end in death. Also, much like Planescape: Torment seems to have expected you to play a mage, I can't help but feel that Torment: Tides of Numenera intended you to play a Nano with Scan Thoughts. So much information and context becomes clear when you also get the unspoken thoughts from the NPCs. If you have Scan Thoughts Erritis's inner conflict is apparent, though still mysterious from the very first interaction with him. Finally, there are other NPCs that explain the effects Castoff and castoff forms have on the tides, your very existence damages the relationships and the people around you, even if you make no deliberate use of the tides to assist you your continued life requires them. The Sorrow was one of the most persuasive antagonists I have encountered in a game.

[@kareliask]

Just a note - Baldur's Gate (and the Infinity Engine) was made by Bioware, PS:T was made by Black Isle 1:42

[@fuzzydunlop7928]

Baldur's Gate was published by Black Isle, as a subsidiary of Interplay - developed by BioWare. So, sorta a join effort.

[@nodansland303]

Years later and this is still one of the best breakdowns of this game I've seen.

[@michaelcullinane3924]

49:00-55:00 around there is the best explanation I've ever heard of I'm guessing many people's childhood far more than we'll ever know.

[@aNerdNamedJames]

[starts video] "Oh yay that sounds like Noah’s new mic" [hears the airplane in the background] "Oh no that sounds like Noah’s new mic"

[@christopherbronson3275]

Dammit, this video got me to actually buy Planescape: Torment

[@nomadjensen8276]

Yeah there are so many good pc games that I didnt get to play as a kid. Once I watched ten mins of this video I bought planescape. And I am loving it. So many good pc titles that I missed as a kid.

[@arek314]

@@nomadjensen8276 does the new version still has this amazing music during credits?

[@matthewbeckham4076]

Two years later, but how did that go?

[@christopherbronson3275]

@@matthewbeckham4076 Really good! It was a great game

[@matthewbeckham4076]

@@christopherbronson3275 Glad to hear it! Well, have a good one, man.

[@kyleromus6845]

Xacharia is a zombie in the ground floor of the mortuary. It's possible to talk to him with story bones tell, but he won't remember who he was unless you remind him. You do this by telling him his name, but you won't know his name until you yourself have been reminded of it.

[@nomadjensen8276]

Thank you for posting this. Been scouring the game an comments to find out more about this guy. Kinda wish he coulda been a companion instead of just TNO's collateral damage

[@megamike15]

@@nomadjensen8276 we get enough. he was a member of the practical incarnation's party. him dying was why you got out of the fortress of regrets as it was his soul you took to return to life.

[@Andreja-gw3pr]

Ground floor*

[@kyleromus6845]

@@Andreja-gw3pr oops, thanks

[@zeroblue720]

Wow. Part of me is glad that I was busy playing a game on the side during your Planescape: Torment section, so as not to catch all the plot points you described. It seems like a truly beautiful narrative game that I would love to experience someday, and take on all its dark and deep philosophical content for myself. Thank you for sharing this game with us, I put it on my Steam wishlist for a future purchase. And Noah. Takes a lot to share such a soul-crushing past and moment of complete vulnerability like that. Thank you for sharing that, too.

[@OnyxIdol]

Agree on Aliens as one of my favorite movies ever. Also it is really pleasant to listen to you ramble. You have a poetic eloquence, and often the choice of words and their flow resonate with me just as much as the meaning or even more so.

[@zenoooooo]

I gotta stay up until like 5 AM to watch this but it's the happiest I've ever been to stay up this stupid early

[@DrazGames]

Nerd

[@zenoooooo]

Draz Fight me, Draz

[@DrazGames]

No items, Fox only, etc.

[@TAKEYOURCREATINE]

Smash memes in a NCG comment section? I approve

[@ZlatkoTheGod]

Shit didn't you use to make TF2 videos?

[@AbstractTraitorHero]

Honestly, Fin the Linguist's forgiveness made me really tear up. It's a moving act to forgive someone in such a way, you rarely see something like that in most media. That raw moment of forgiveness, the willingness to let things go.

[@vallraffs]

Oh lordy lord. At last, the thing I've been wishing for since I first saw that excellent Fallout video years ago, has come!

[@beetlemilkpublishing2665]

I’m playing PS:T now. As you drew towards the end of that plotline, I knew the ending of the game was about to be spoiled for me. I didn’t care. Dude, you are wonderful. I genuinely loved this video and your analysis. Keep it up!

[@megamike15]

"perhaps there will be a 3rd game to unify the styles" disco Elysium has entered the chat.

[@FlameQwert]

hell yeah

[@SwainBjornstrandt]

hell yeah!

[@insertnamehere3363]

And he loved it. Made it it’s own 1+ hour video. A new Noah video is like Christmas

[@ixis]

No. Disco Elysium is its own thing. What we need are more introspective semi-iso western philosophy RPGs so we don't have to slaver and howl over the trickle of titles we do get, then endlessly compare them for no reason. It'll be much easier to point out what Disco Elysium does wrong with more distance and perspective.

[@Shinigami13133]

Disco Elysium is great because it distilled everything I love about Planescape and put it into a system that jives with those elements. I didn't have to worry about combat getting in the way like it does in the later bits of Planescape, and the ability to retry checks after leveling the associated skill meant that I could always come back to a place and experience more story.

[@jeffgibbs4158]

This video went back in time and changed the way I relate to a game I haven't played in years. Just amazing work.

[@jayakrishnan4960]

Correction: Black Isle mostly did the publication and feedback parts for Baldur's Gate. (although it was Interplay's idea to make it into a D&D rpg rather than the RTS it was going to be)Rest was all Bioware. So they are technically the makers of BG. Great video btw

[@Kaucukovnik666]

This. The two studios cooperated closely, but the only important relation between BG and Ps:T is the engine and the D&D license.

[@TheUnspokenKibbles]

Despite the less-than-favorable comparison, this video has really made me want to play Tides of Numnera. As I lack the context of having played Planescape: Torment myself, I might be better able to sever it mentally from being a Torment game and just immerse myself in the olympic-sized pool of creative stories the game appears to offer.

[@Ghosthacker94]

Having seen the video, I somewhat agree with Noah about Numenera's weaknesses, but not in the same degree. Maybe I am just too much a sucker for weird and awesome self-contained stories but while I did feel thematic and tonal focus was lacking, I still very much enjoyed the game and agonized/sympathized over decisions and events. Very much recommend it.

[@JazzzRockFuzion]

I too came to ToN without any prior experience (and subsequent expectation set) from Planescape. Judging by its own merits, I found it to be one of the best RPGs I've ever played. I'd highly recommend, if you haven't dove in already!

[@mysticonthehill]

I have played Planescape Torment when it came out and mightily enjoyed Tides of Numenara as well. It is a good game that stands on its own.

[@savnetsinn_original]

An A- is always going to compare unfavorably to an A+. They're still both excellent.

[@drajion8976]

Old comment but Tides of Numenera is a fantastic game that stuck with me long after I finished it. It’s not as good as Planescape but it’s like comparing a 100 to a 90.

[@lolmechy]

Yeah exactly, Numenera really shines when it's doing things different from Torment, which is why constantly calling back to it is such a shame. Really shouldn't even have been called "Torment" since the plot point to justify the name is so weak and again there just as a throwback. They are making a sequel though. I hope they take that lesson to heart. Good video.

[@ThingsStuffington]

Wait, what? A sequel to Tides or Planescape?

[@lolmechy]

Turns out it was a sequel to the tabletop game. WHOOPS.

[@PzOwNeD]

man, i just love listening to you talk, noah. it's profoundly soothing, yet also engaging at the same time. a happy paradox, like being back in a lecture hall and listening to someone speak in that enthusiastic yet restrained tone of someone who really cares, but wants to focus on the delivery. thank you for sharing all of this with us.

[@MyogaReyao]

51:00 was really nice, thanks for sharing man

[@Inogat]

The amount of sincerity and trust and care put into this video is truly remarkable.

[@ZappasMudshark]

God damn man this has to be my favorite of your videos I appreciate you inserting some of your personal experiences in life. Please keep it up!

[@IzzyLovesRock]

Just got home from working swing shift and I see your video in my sub feed. Thank you, Noah.

[@windwind3170]

So it seems you've got yourself a new mic... well i'm gonna miss the old shitty mic with background noises.

[@Drako1777]

Literally unwatchable now

[@Alex-ip1dn]

Everytime I watch one of your analysis I end up turning my thoughts inward. I truly appreciate how your work allows for self reflection and growth through games.

[@Thagomizer]

I also wish that there was a bit more to Annah's arc than what we get, but . . . my god, her death is the saddest one in the entire game. It's even worse if your relationship with Annah mirrors that of Deionarra and the Practical Incarnation. That is to say, if you didn't particularly like Annah, but brought her with to make use of her skills. I had to go through a whole box of tissues my first time through the game. And the second, and the third, and the fourth. I don't think I can ever make it through the end of the game with a dry eye.

[@SeelkadoomandJokic00]

Correction, Planescape Torment wasn't made by Bioware, creators of Baldur's Gate, but Black Isle, creator's of Icewind Dale which would later become Obsidian.

[@7_fly814]

May I just say that your commentary was extremely precise and well structured, and I was very impressed with your description & summary of the party characters plotlines. You managed to capture so much of the game's nuance and impress that on me as a viewer, which helped me further appreciate this game as well as writing for games more than I already did. I'd be sure to subscribe for more quality content. Great job.

[@Books-Music-Tea]

This analysis is still as great as I remember! I've watched more of your analysis videos and they're awesome too but this one will always be my favorite.

[@AwesomeCrackDealer]

Following D&D's lead designer Chris Perkins's weekly campaign on twitch I've seen he's using a lot of inspiration from Planescape. I can only hope this means they may be coming up with a Planescape book for 5th edition

[@Paraboxify]

one of his players started a 5e Planescape campaign, and one of the players in Acq Inc's C-Team campaign, DMed by one of the players in another game run by Perkins was brought on-board, it's a period where Wizards has quite a few people moving up in the ranks and opening up spots, Sigil is also going to get some better level of feature in the upcoming Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes, so I think it may well be the case we'll be getting 5e Planescape before the new decade

[@ethanwhite2210]

It will be in Tome of Foes confirmed? Nice :) I always felt like I missed out, never playing in the time when Planescape was at its height.

[@AwesomeCrackDealer]

Not only that, but there have been subtle clues. In the newest campaign, Tomb of Annihilation, in the last floors of the dungeon there are multiple references, including portals to Mechanus and the other planes. There's also an NPC from SIgil. I'm hyped

[@Thagomizer]

They won't. Planescape was a 2nd edition only setting, though the Manual of the Planes found its way into subsequent editions.

[@etherealworrier]

@@Thagomizer That's part of the problem. Planescape isn't a separate setting to Wizards, it's part of the planar core. Because of that, we might get occasional details but I doubt we'll get a full book. It sucks though, because we'll likely never get a 5e book focusing on Sigil unless it's an adventure. (I'm still sort of expecting a March of the Modrons adventure eventually but that won't be enough setting info)

[@wellsb973]

This is the most moving, astonishing bit of video essay/ game criticism I’ve encountered. Thank you.

[@justinfenton9983]

This is the Planescape video we have deserved since youtube first launched. My friend this is your magnum opus of critiques.

[@oscarpanic]

Thanks for making this beautiful analysis about two of my favorite games. This is probably the most insightful piece on PT I've read/seen/heard, which is saying a lot.

[@EisenKreutzer]

This is the best analysis of Planescape: Torment I have ever seen. I love both these games dearly, as well as the rpg settings they are based in, and your take on both was extremely interesting to listen to. Thank you for making this video.

[@GoodRogue]

15:55 is where the automatic subtitles propose that Dak'kon was the wielder of "cock blade". I'm sorry. Your video is brilliant and deserves a much better comment than this.

[@michellebyrnes1728]

Incredible video, Noah. Next to your Tyranny analysis, I consider this to be your finest work to date.The concept that the player character is culpable in many of the past tragedies and events prior to the plot is such an amazing concept. Obsidian still uses it to this day: Fallout: New Vegas (Lonesome Road), Pillars of Eternity, and Tyranny (Conquest), although they differ in their construction and relation of the player to the character. RPGs will always feature main characters who are akin to Torment: Tides of Numenera's Last Castoff - a blank slate through which the player constructs to their liking (a hold-over from tabletop rules). But there is something to be said about the creative potential of narrative friction between the player and their character -- something that can only be achieved through video games.

[@davidcolby167]

They also did it really well in KOTOR 2 - where the final, climactic battle of the Mandalorian War is an omnipresent weight that hangs over the main character. It echoes in the planets you visit, and dogs you in the form of Darth Nihulus, who was created in the same battle, and even dragged his spaceship out of the gravity well of that dead world and set it to hounding you to fill his eternal, endless hunger. ...man, Noah needs to do KOTOR 1 and 2 retrospectives...

[@megamike15]

@@davidcolby167 kotor 2 and motb show why tides just isnt as good of a spiritual successor.

[@maximec.chagnon9894]

I Played Torment tides of Numenera on release and Planescape:Torment for the first time recently. Ever since I was thinking "Noah should look into those". I did not expect my own reaction seeing this video appear. It's christmas.

[@wishes_._]

I recently got in to this whole universe of torment. I have not completed the game yet but i actually liked the concept of feeling like your a tourist in someone else's body. When I was younger I felt like that very often even sometimes now as a adult always not knowing what you are truly meant to be

[@starrmont4981]

At 47:00 the word you are looking for is gesamtkuntswerk. It's a German term that roughly translates as a "total work of art" and describes an artwork, design, or creative process where different art forms are combined to create a single cohesive whole.

[@bleachitwhite]

This is probably my favorite video of yours. It's wonderfully written and structured and good god does it make me want to play planescape: torment.

[@rheckart11]

This is your best retrospective yet Noah. Thank you for these

[@FingerthingMHS]

I think there was an attempt at cohesion for Tides, it just never came through properly. That theme is legacy. It makes sense from a distance, if you squint at the story and setting. Numenera is burdened by eight civilisations that have come and gone, the player character is burdened with a history belonging to a being thousands of years old. It tried to ask what we leave behind, but perhaps more importantly, how we deal with what *others* leave behind. The problem is, again, in the execution - there's just simply too many wild and varied stories to stick to that theme, perhaps in part thanks to its adherence to it. The story itself became burdened by history, if that makes sense. I'm glad you defended the game to some extent. It's got some fantastic vignettes in it.

[@Kaucukovnik666]

Ps:T started out with mystery and intrigue. Every bit you gradually learned made sense and immediately clicked. Eventually you could learn everything that matters for the story, in specifics. ToN showers you in exposition, but the very setting is made purposely obtuse. It merely suggests at background and history that just isn't there, and its intrigue hinges on never letting players deep enough to see that. The PnP Numenera explicitly tells this to dungeon masters. It's a hodgepodge of otherworldly *cool ideas* that no one bothered to connect, and this is presented as a feature.

[@bobcooper82]

Torment : tides of numenera has turned me into a crpg fan. Since then I've played wasteland 2, pillars of eternity, fallout 1&2, and divinity original sin. 2020 update: I would like to point out that all of these games were played on my ps4. Recently I purchased baldur's gate 1&2, icewind dale, and planescape torment on the switch; that console handles crps very smoothly.

[@jacket2038]

I haven't finished it, but Tyranny seemed super good as well when I played it a while ago.

[@qinlongfei]

Highly recommend you give Divinity Original Sin 2 a try if you haven't already. Personally I always find western CRPG that's more rooted in tabletop to be very forgettable experience for my taste (RPG to me means JRPG, the kind where I assume the role of another character with a very linear story and experience rather than modular experience with self-expression), but I absolutely loves D:OS 2 and consider it one of the best experience in video game I ever had.

[@wingnoot338]

Torment got me into the system. Tyranny locked me in it forever.

[@ajsingh4545]

JRPGS are still better from 90s and early 2000s

[@boggo3848]

Wait till you play Original Sin 2, it really reaches the excellence of P:T.

[@qinlongfei]

I remember reading an Chinese online article back in the 2000s about Planescape:Torment (Although this game is roughly translated into 'Other Realm Requiem' in Chinese, yeah, we have a very liberating way of translating titles) and find the setting to be pretty exotic back then. But I feel like I have to play this game now after your in-depth analysis. Sounds like exactly the kind of story I enjoy. Thank you very much for the video, Noah.

[@alessiomadethat]

Thank you so much for recommending "The Navigators." It's not often that any creators on KZbin are openly vulnerable about their own mortality. I genuinely appreciate your perspective, Noah.

[@lollipophugo]

You won't read this but your brief mention and analysis of that "navigation" story spoke a truth to me that I've been denying myself for a long time. That whole segment was beautiful and terrible and made me look at my experience with this game, and all games, in a different light, and made me feel that weird connection to you that I guess all people with a parasocial bond to youtubers experience for the first time. Great video, I've been enjoying your work for a while but this is the first video you've made that spoke to me as a person and I feel compelled to communicate that to you on the off chance you ever see that. You are creating art in your own way.

[@rafaelalandrade]

A correction, Monte Cook was not "one of the original guys" designing Planescape. You got him confused with David "Zeb" Cook, the main designer of both AD&D 2nd Edition and the Planescape setting. Monte Cook (no relation to Zeb) came later to the Planescape team, and ended up designing some iconic campaigns for the setting.

[@NathanielWinkelmann]

I heard in an interview that Monte decided to pursue game design as a career because he saw David Cook on a module ”hey! That is my name! I could do that!"

[@jimmydeeftp]

I've been waiting a long time to see you talk about this game. Thank you, I already know it'll be interesting and help me put my love for it into better words.

[@starkc550]

You really do wonderful work. Both your insights and editing are of such quality I can easily imagine these videos being lectures, and I hope you can monetize them somehow outside of youtube in the future.

[@davidsantiagoalonso]

i can't wait to watch this tonight. Thankyou for creating these great videos. Much Appreciated.

[@taz0k2]

A whole hour analysis/synopsis of PS: Torment and you succeed in making it feel concise and concentrated. I am impressed by the game and by this video. Finding quality stuff on PS and PST is like Christmas for me!

[@viewtifuljoe99]

Finished my first full run of Planescape last summer and I'm really enjoying hearing your breakdown of the characters and plot. Absolutely incredible game

[@d.w.7203]

Thank you, Noah. Insightful, well written and a pleasure to watch ... as always.

[@HighwayMule]

[Lie] This IS NOT one of your best essays yet.

[@user-qc6pg6ef6h]

Gravamen (!) Noah will remember this

[@GreyWolfLeaderTW]

Westly: "Um, I'm going to say: Yes."

[@discojoe3]

I like to drink urine.

[@wampyrelli]

@@discojoe3 very good

[@karllorant5892]

You truly are an epic wordsmith and it shows through the way you write and present your analysis. This made me really hype on the franchise too! You're up there with my new favorite youtubers :D

[@baileywales7403]

Thank you for sharing such a personal part of yourself, it is valued

[@Transplanar]

Thanks for making this! BTW, re 35:34, you can find Xacharia in the Mortuary once you gain the ability to speak to the dead in the Dead Nations Catacomb. He is the zombie at the bottom floor of the Mortuary on the east side carrying a stack of books.

[@BuiikiKaesu69]

these videos are the main reason i go on youtube anymore great work, as always

[@c.jarmstrong3111]

Thank you, Noah! Another great piece of work!

[@mellowcoconut]

I was just thinking a few hours ago about how I wanted a new video from you!!! Thanks Noah!!!

[@CacheTaFace]

I've been waiting for you to do these games for years! Yayyy!

[@EmoDuck13]

I never thought I'd hear Planescape labelled as the delineated and focused setting in comparison to anything. Great video. o/

[@BenTheITGuy]

Dude, I really like your opinions on these games you have covered, also how you read all the patrions at the end, its always awesome!

[@forestcampbell8962]

All i can think of to say is that this rumination through your perspective is profoundly excellent sir!

[@VictimOfFat3]

Your review is fantastic, unbelievably comprehensive

[@Llenwyth]

I believe Planescape torment is a bizarre and yet poetic quest to know oneself.

[@accept8988]

These analysis on some of my fav classic rpgs are nuts man, amazing work really. Would love to watch one about Dark Souls.

[@thinkstoomuch4445]

Noah my good sir, great videos as always. You are the bar of smarts and insight I strive to reach with my own videos.

[@thewayfarer8849]

Waited for you to cover Planescape for a long time, thanks!

[@jedrzejczarnota]

Another excellent video from Noah - thumbs up!

[@Acsabi44]

THANK YOU! A video on my faviurite game ever from my favourite game analyst ever

[@hastings890]

Bravo, man. Well done. I grew up with the Bioware RPGs and have never enjoyed any other sort of game as much since. You clearly love them as much as I do; it's really nice to finally see them given the long-form treatment I've been looking for. You really delivered here, man, thank you. For better or worse, I'm genuinely excited to sit down and listen to two hours of well-structured examination into Baldur's Gate!

[@jackakimbo5718]

"Farewell, my friend. My home and hearth and bread are forever yours." damn, I'm getting a bit misty eyed from this even after only what has to be the most condensed explanation possible of the relationship between the characters involved

[@Calico_Crow]

Oh my god Noah I love you for making this You are a gift

[@NoInfoAvail]

I love your videos man! I tried to finish both if these games but I am struggling with them.

[@TrivialPunk]

I've never played either of these, but I love listening to your breakdowns :D

[@TheSpanoudis]

the planescape torment is almost a perfection, you truly bring out the essence of the game in words I never could, and I am truly grateful for that. I have found the knowledge I always wanted to attain and the words that adequately represent the greatness of this game. You will be for evermore my reference, thank you. I think I have missed the part about Vhailor, even if he is not a core component of the game, he is still a possible companion and has a lot to offer on your analysis. I haven't heard the "Tides of Numenera " when I write this, and honestly I need nothing more from this video, but I will have a look since you did such a good job with the 1st part.

[@dust2891]

Been waiting for this!

[@mattkeflowers]

Thank you for the earnest sharing of how your own life experience connects to this game. Beautifully done

[@tiaxanderson9725]

45:05 "[The Paranoid Incarnation] is also the one who got you those tattoos" Isn't the incarnation that tries to trap you in a sensate stone The Paranoid One? He tells you that The Practical One gave you those tattoos

[@alroth1035]

Great video as always, Noah! It's interesting to see how, even as we both seem to love Planescape: Torment and agree on a lot of things about it, we can also take pretty different things from our playthroughs and from the content in the game, all generally surrounding the same themes. It's telling of just how dense the content is in this game. So... Allow me to touch on a few thoughts I had with regards to the video: So firstly, I think we have interpreted several characters and parts of the story rather differently. I think we overall agree with Nordom and Ignus for one, and whilst I don't disagree with the others I find it interesting how we've decided to focus on pretty different aspects across. So as for *Dak'kon* , I may be opening a can of worms here but one of the more fascinating aspects to his character I find to be how his particular story reflects rather deeply on the condition of transracialism, showing him as someone who's condition of slavery was enforced by his not knowing himself, as well as the ever widening breach with the rest of his culture as he embraced this new apocryphal history more and more. Dak'kon's torment comes by means of several aspects at once which are all deeply woven with one another: one being his condition as a slave, but likewise his condition as an exile and pariah and the way his crisis of faith and culture, and thus his identity and his sense of self, also reinforce his state as the former. His teachings, redesigned by his 'master' and used to hone him further as a weapon or a tool, are not altogether unsimilar to the many means in which slavers would seek to strip their 'property' from a sense of self partly by the suppression of their former culture and beliefs in the face of a new one. Though the game gives us precious little insight on what would Dak'kon's future as a githzerai be, by the end of the game the breach with his people hasn't really closed - it's remained constant, he's still an exile, he's still the Jemmy Button of the story in some strange fashion - but maybe he has found some sense of identity and worth in his newly reforged faith that he may move forward and come to terms with how he's been changed, and be his own free man once more, maybe he can be the "cultural anthopophagist" of sorts and come to terms with his faith and culture being no longer neither githzerai nor else, but something new with elements appropriated of the same. And one of the brilliant touches to his character is just how he's able to speak of all these matters, about race and cultural identity and so on, without actually calling attention to the fact that he is doing as much, for any one race or culture or dynamic between two specifically. With regards to *Morte* , there are many little nuances here and there that make him very interesting to my eyes. You mention in your review that maybe all that Morte wants is a friend and I wouldn't entirely disagree, but for me at least what keeps him hounding the Nameless One for so long is his *guilt* before what he did, or may have done. So, firstly we have to look into what condemned him to the Pillar of Skulls in the first place: this... isn't really explained, all we know is that be *believes* he may have gotten the Nameless One killed in a past life, but we also know from him that he doesn't actually remember (of course, belief in this setting is everything, so it might as well be that he did). This can of course be read as that he might have, but I'm inclined to *also* argue that the alternative, that this might all be false, is also as interesting a consideration about his character, as it would also suggest that he is projecting into the Nameless One something - he's seeing in the Nameless One an opportunity to right his wrong, to redeem himself and thus be rid of the guilt. I feel he is in some way the best-informed character in the party of the consequence of your actions, through his own suffering as a petitioner, as part of the Pillar of Skulls: I find it interesting that amidst all the characters we are able to recruit into the party, above the likes of Dak'kon, or Annah, or even Grace, he is the *only* companion to be of an actual GOOD allignment - and this is a character who has already in a past life been condemned to the Hells. I suspect that he's a character who, when read between the lines, has suffered an indeterminable amount of time in the Hells for his deeds and, really, how would a man not change his nature in the face of such suffering as well as the awareness of where his actions would take him? His guilt seems to be almost corroborated by the Planes' very decision of where he was bound to go following his death, and seeing it in this light I feel it makes him more aware of where his past deeds have got him, and might ass a newfound urgency to why he needs to correct them, even if by helping out this one man who gave him this second chance outside the Pillar of Skulls (and who may or may not be the one he wronged). As for *Grace* , initially I feel like she was probably my least-favorite companion, inasmuch as I found her "chaste succubus" dichotomy too obvious and straightforward and inversion so as to even be a cliché of its own, something akin to the "vampire with a soul" or the "good drow" or so on, so forth. But I've warmed up greatly to her, and I think that's due to a number of reasons. For the sake of what relates to your video, I will say that my interpretation of this character was pretty different all in all. I don't think she's exactly *strived* in the conventional sense to defy her nature or to be better than she is - as a matter of fact I think her name is telling that the opposite may be true in her mind, that she has "fallen" by means of defying her nature, that she's broken in some essential fashion. I find it interesting that despite often coming across as the most traditionally 'good' character in the game, her allignment is still 'lawful neutral' - this feels weirdly contradictory with some of her words, either as if her nature were keeping her back... Or if she refused to be viewed in such a way, as if she still clung to some possibility of maybe "rising" back to grace in some fashion or other. Her dysfunction as such has already been born out of millennia of servitude to a very different species in a plane that contradicts her nature: the Baatezu, lawful evil devils that rule the Lawful Evil plane of Baator and whose evil is in some fashion that of an oppressive, regimented system of injustice, the kind that would bend and mold a person into a tool for the very same; no doubt her first shift away from her nature came here, under these conditions, an embodiment of a passion made to be part of this regime. Therefore I don't believe her defiance of her very nature came across as a desired one, it is merely the byproduct of this same rupture, made from millennia of suffering, and hence, again, why she's 'fallen' and not 'risen'. And with regards to *Annah* , finally, I also think that you might be underselling her suffering by focusing exclusively on her love towards the Nameless One. I think this same love is merely a byproduct of her actual torment, which is actually loneliness. I think this is especially evident with her reaction to Pharod's appearance in the Pillar of Skulls: Pharod's the character closest to her, an 'adoptive father' of sorts who only saw of his daughter a use for his line of work; he was more of a boss than an actual father, hardly of the nice kind either. And yet she's distraught when she sees him there, she seems to want to help him somehow... Because it's the only person she's ever had in her life. She seems to exhibit throughout an attitude that seems hardened to strangers, but which belies a passion and clingy attachment to those she eventually does let in, which in the Nameless One's case seems to manifest into love. Maybe for her desire or need of the very same. There is something about her that seems to call Harry Harlow's experiments to mind, of that need for tighter attachment in the face of greater hostility and isolation, and ultimately this is what I feel makes her character very interesting, and much more layered than your "tsundere love interest". And speaking of Pharod, I find it curious that you should not mention him at all. I find his overall arch to be brilliant, quite tragic and ironic, and much like Dak'kon, also the product of a great deception in seemingly several layers as well. Also I'd like to point out... How *brilliant* is the reveal for what the Bronze Sphere actually is? You could make a whole video breaking apart this element, as an example of a great way of handling a twist. It's precisely brilliant because it's one of those elements you don't even realize until you get to the actual pay-off that you've been set up to it before: the sensory stones are introduced as part of the Sensate beliefs and seems like a convenient bit of magic to allign with their philosophy, allowing the members to experience themselves things that they would never be able to get. Obviously the importance of a device that houses memories is hugely significant in a story about an amnesiac in search of his past... But you *assume* the payoff to be the memories in the private sensoriums that relate directly to you and your own experiences. For the most part you assume that's their purpose within the narrative and conveniently forget about it... Until, upon revelation of what the Bronze Sphere truly is, you come to understand *that* was the real payoff - and by that part it seems such a simple and natural device within the setting even that it just seems to satisfying in that same simplicity as well. It's wonderful. (Cont.)

[@alroth1035]

Finally with regards to PS:T, I will leave a quote from a Borges story called "The Immortal" which I feel really gets down to what the game is about, for me. To me the question of "what can change the nature of a man" is... Interesting, but more so by the questions that are asked implicitly by it, like "what does one *mean* with the 'nature' of a man?" or "how does one define the nature of a man?". As with many great artworks, what makes Torment such a brilliant piece is that ultimately this is a game that also largely reflects on the *value* of your actions, not necessarily in the face of how your character ultimately changes the outcome of his life, but how ultimately these same, held within a finite stretch of time to only develop up to a certain point, ultimately determine a character, determine an individual, and determine the "role". It is a game in which playing the game itself is in some way to create the actual character, whereas also approaching eternal life as a means of an individual's actions to proliferate to the point that they lose worth, to the point that every action, every dialogue or every choice ultimately is bound to cancel another and make one less of an individual, or make his person and his individuality less valuable in turn. The game's objective is to make your life finite once more, and to therefore lend your actions and your very person worth once again. So here's the quote: “Taught by centuries of living, the republic of immortal men had achieved a perfection of tolerance, almost of disdain. They knew that over an infinitely long span of time, all things happen to all men. As reward for his past and future virtues, every man merited every kindness -- yet also every betrayal, as reward for his past and future iniquities. Much as the way in games of chance, heads and tails tend to even out, so cleverness and dullness cancel and correct each other. Perhaps the rude poem of El Cid is the counterweight demanded by a single epithet of the Eclogues or a maxim from Heraclitus. The most fleeting thought obeys an invisible plan, and may crown, or inaugurate, a secret design. I know of men who have done evil in order that good may come of it in future centuries, or may already have come of it in centuries past... Viewed in that way, all our acts are just, though also unimportant. There are no spiritual or intellectual merits. Homer composed the Odyssey; given infinite time, with infinite circumstances and changes, it is impossible that the Odyssey should not be composed at least once. No one is someone; a single immortal man is all men. Like Cornelius Agrippa, I am god, hero, philosopher, demon, and world -- which is a long-winded way of saying that I am not.” I'll come back to discuss Tides of Numenera later on. I personally loved that game as well, though I don't disagree with the faults you point out necessarily either. I'll approach that in a different 'thread'.

[@Arashmickey]

Also consider Annah's parentage, ie. what is the life of the daughter of an immortal Charles Manson or Hitler?

[@JoannaFalkowska]

@@alroth1035 Will you come back? Your points are extremely interesting.

[@AdaptiveApeHybrid]

Love your work Noah

[@tiaxanderson9725]

34:09 "He left a trap for himself ... You can pester him with questions though ... will cast you out [in fear of being trapped with your questioning gaze]." So I played this recently and I actually convinced the Paranoid Incarnation that we were the same and he said (paraphrasing) "well then you should be able to get yourself out" and I willed myself out of the trap. I've played past this point many times, but I never noticed this variation, I was always curious about the tattoos etc..

[@coartramey7382]

Best one you've done, Noah, and that's really saying something!

[@neilholmes8200]

Loved this game from back when it first came out and still playing it slowly on my mobile. I also briefly played the p&p game when I was much younger when the setting and it's language was so alien

[@RAMENn00dleb0y]

I've watched a LOT of your videos by now, but this might be my favorite.

[@ycl260779]

Only just discovered this video (and channel). Very interesting talk and comparison between the 2 games (planescape still being one of my most favourite cprgs).

[@newhampguy]

Holy shit I love both these games and had NO idea you made a comparison. Huge fan, too! This is just awesome.

[@nerdymanjoe4948]

I couldn’t watch the whole video because I haven’t played Torment ToN (downloading it right now) yet, but I love your retrospective on PT. For the record, I came to the game really late. I only played it for the first time 3 years ago, but it’s the best game I’ve ever played. Nothing else comes close. IMO, it completely transcends video games, yet uses mechanics unique to video games to tell a deeply introspective and meaningful story. I only hope that we’ll have another game reach it’s heights within the next 20 years.

[@element1111]

Did you ever play Silent Hill 2?

[@vladkornea]

Try Star Control 2