Why Disney's Frollo is Too Evil (Hunchback of Notre Dame Analysis)

Does Claude Frollo's complexity really shine, or is he about as compelling as a drab little crab? Let's find out
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[@Don-ds3dy]

Drowing a baby in a well would also contaminate the water supply. So evil.

[@minabrunkhorst9954]

Oh, damn. I didn't even think about that!

[@isaiahadams1996]

Mina Brunkhorst Me either

[@miamackenzie9946]

we were all to focused on the immediate evil we didn't see the evil lying underneath

[@louise4152]

Oh shit-

[@paintitpeachydontforgetthe539]

*shudders* how-how hOrRiBlE!!!!

[@jadenk1409]

Frollo: *starts singing HELLFIRE* Notre dame cathedral: *sweats intensively*

[@CreeketsCreek]

Okay that was a good one xD

[@alicebydinger]

Too soon m8, too soon

[@jairoavila6092]

@@alicebydinger ur probs the same person who says it's too soon to make Holocaust jokes.

[@sky0kast0]

Holocaust ... Just can't be funny... Without reaching by calling it a Clown Holocaust

[@alicebydinger]

@@jairoavila6092 r/woooosh

[@thecheck968]

Here's the scariest part though: both versions are just as believable.

[@literallygaston2489]

TheCheck7 I agree, but I think the film would benefit by showing at least one moment indicating that Frollo wasn’t always 100% evil, because nobody is at the start. Like idk, he hates gypsies because one killed his family or something. Or he was actually all about justice but then gradually lost himself and became an irredeemable mess.

[@charliesnark6535]

@@literallygaston2489 No, because some people are just evil. And you can't help it, maybe not from the start but nothing needs to happen for someone to be evil. Some just are

[@GayToBeHere]

@@literallygaston2489 But there's no need to have a gypsie kill his family, or it being justified. Hating gypsies was a product of his time. It would be ok to give him something that makes him less evil - like him caring a bit about quasi for example - but I really disagree with trying to tie his hate of gypsie to a backstory. Not every racist hates a certain group because they had a personal history with them.

[@miless.9429]

TheCheck7 Did you even watch the video or just wanted to post that

[@kestral63]

​@@miless.9429 The Alabama senate is 80% Frollos. Never mind convincing, we know entire herds of him exist.

[@lukayaroslav9914]

"The kind of evil that doesn't realize that it's evil, is the worst kind of evil there is." - Weather Report -

[@silverthedruid4754]

Is ThAt a MoThErFuCkInG JoJo ReFrEnCe

[@lukayaroslav9914]

@@silverthedruid4754 yes

[@highadmiraljt5853]

First- funny jojo refrene momento Xd Second- reminds me of handsome jack from the borderlands video game franchise.

[@GodInHumanForm]

Do you believe in gravity?

[@AgentLando]

the duality between Pucci and weather

[@DarkSol16]

Wait.... You mean I *can't* trust everyone who T-poses for me?

[@avibenhaim3905]

b r u h

[@Junaetzia]

You foolish mortal. They have already asserted their dominance over you and you aren't even aware of it!

[@yeethittter1285]

☺ T

[@hatcellucard599]

Bruh

[@hierstehtkeinname7092]

T

[@duchi882]

_No Cathedral was burned in the making of this video_

[@ImmaLittlePip]

Now all of Paris is burning because of you Quasimodo Quasimodo: That was his mistake!

[@adanna8552]

Ooop

[@theguyintheworks8838]

*_*quickly hides torch behind back*_*

[@XanderVJ]

Too soon?

[@eliasapollo4131]

*victor hugo be crying in his grave*

[@noahh6186]

"Villain who has no flaws" Uh excuse you, Tamatoa can't flip over when he's on his back, I'd say that's a pretty big flaw.

[@marcossandrosilva6979]

It's because he's the true hero of the movie

[@rockhistoria2537]

He's just to powerful to be left free

[@beast6213]

that's not a flaw, it's a weakness, which is different

[@noahh6186]

@@beast6213 I know this is probably not a super serious comment so don't feel the need to pay any mind to my reply. That said, I feel like it depends on how you define flaw and weakness. Like, the way I personally see it, his shell being shaped/weighted in such a way that he can't get up when flipped over is a flaw, both due to his biological design and his greed, and when he is flipped over it then becomes a weakness. So in a way it's both, to me at least.

[@beast6213]

@@noahh6186 not sure if this would be the t cubical definitions but for example, Achilles' heel would he his weakness (though it could also be mental/emotional, not purely physical) but his hubris is his flaw (what would ultimately cause or lead to a downfall) but that's just my view on it.

[@AragornRespecter]

“Why does he hate Gypsies in the movie?” Idk man he’s French it ain’t that much of a stretch

[@BedfastSquid]

Gypsy’s were actually treated like trash during this time period as well so being that Frollo is a public figure during this time it really is no surprise

[@pesciisthebestcharacter5100]

I don't even know what the fuck a gypsy is.

[@nekogaming5300]

@@pesciisthebestcharacter5100 then you don’t have any reason to comment

[@pesciisthebestcharacter5100]

@@nekogaming5300 can you tell me what it is?

[@caixo5604]

@@pesciisthebestcharacter5100 Gypsies are a nomadic folk of Europe

[@Sabaism]

Hell fire is the greatest villain song ever fight me

[@theregularterrarian3933]

tyler Barrett I agree

[@vylbird8014]

A bit of trivia: When Frollo is insisting "It's not my fault!" the hooded chorus reply. In medieval latin. It translates to "It is my fault. It is my fault. It is my most severe fault."

[@Loopimay]

I mean, "Be Prepared" is also a huge jam

[@quillheart0331]

At the risk of getting slapped but...Epiphany?

[@Mastermint]

@@vylbird8014 the whole song had a chorus singing a prayer in latin and greek. it begins with a contrast, because he starts the song praising himself while the chorus confesses sins to god, mary and the saints. they sing Kyrie eleison while Frollo sings "God have merci on her/on me". beautiful and haunting. best damn song ever

[@sebastianrodriguez3718]

Next video: Why Disney's Tamatoa is too shiny.

[@cgrn17]

Why Disney’s Tamatoa isn’t shiny enough

[@metaknight1410]

Adam Jensen That's impossible. He's perfect the shiny way he is!

[@Gloomdrake]

/420/ No. More. It’s not enough.

[@usernametaken4608]

No he's not shiny enough

[@davidpaul6290]

Next video: Why Arthur SHOULD eat lunch in this town again.

[@alexandergilles8583]

Religion is like a knife. In the hands of a chef, it can be a tool for compassion, beauty, and wonder. In the hands of a murderer, it can be a tool for violence, suffering, and division. If someone uses religion to make lives miserable, it’s not necessarily their religion that is making them awful. It’s the way they wield it.

[@TheJawesomeOne]

Well said

[@sassythehumansylveon5803]

PREACH BRUH

[@lorax1274]

Exactly It can give hope as much it can give death

[@thefunny1359]

I'm 14 and this is deep

[@CrisReed2]

Yep, everything can be twisted into a weapon of hatred by people who only want an excuse to make others miserable. Most notably religion and politics. I'm Catholic myself, but I despise with passion people that use their faith to justify their hate for others.

[@cheezemonkeyeater]

I *have* read the book. I'll clear up some things as I go. First, Quasimodo wasn't related to Frolo in the book. In the book, someone abandoned him as a baby on the steps of the cathedral and all of the nuns wanted to kill him, but Frolo took him in. This put a wedge between him and many other members of the clergy because they thought the child was a demon and Frolo had made a contract with it by taking it in. Frolo had this driving need to help people, even at risk to himself in the book, so this was in keeping with his character. He at one point even went so far as to risk infection during the Black Plague to help comfort and heal the sick - as much as they could heal for the time period, anyway. Frolo had no problem with gypsies in the book, as far as I recall, that was a change made in the book's first film adaptation that just kinda stuck. In the book, his real personality flaw was gynophobia. Not sexism, actual gynophobia - he was terrified of women and the idea of being with them. It was more than just religious fervor, because he would be actively combative with the nuns and other women that worked in and around the cathedral. His conflict with Esmeralda wasn't because she was a gypsy, but because she was a woman, but he used the fact that she was a gypsy and gypsies were disliked by the populace to stir up hostility towards her in the community. And it all was just because he happened to look out the window and see her and think, "oh, she's kinda hot." That thought created a kind of cognitive dissonance in him that he couldn't resolve and at first he just tried to drive her away, but when none of his attempts worked, he tried more aggressive strategies, getting more and more insane over time until he tries to kill her. His descent into madness is a huge tragedy in the book, because he ends up getting not just himself, but everyone he cares about killed as a part of his obsession. And it was all so needless. All he had to do was let it go, but he couldn't do it. "Frolo still has his 'a lesson needs to be learned' bit." Also different in the book. In the book, Frolo isn't even there. Quasimodo gets arrested by the police for trying to help Frolo kidnap Esmeralda, but when he sees the police coming, Frolo ditches Quasimodo and leaves him to take the blame alone, never going to see him on the pillory because he doesn't want to implicate himself. I can't remember if Frolo felt bad about this, or if he was too far gone at that point, because the novel is a bit non-linear with how it reveals Frolo's whole story and I can't remember the exact order of events. I think this might have been the moment that Frolo starts to go over the edge, though; letting his adoptive child take the fall for him is the first really serious thing he does (before it was just harassment) and I think that's what drives Frolo into the notion that he's damned himself and thus convinces himself that he deserves Esmeralda because - in his rationale - she tempted him into evil, so she owes it to him. Yeah, the book is pretty on point about the way men like him think about women. In the book, Esmeralda does claim sanctuary in the Cathedral, but not from Frolo. At least, not directly. She flees the police because they believe she murdered Pheobus, when it was actually Frolo who stabbed Phoebus and then framed her for the murder, hoping she'd get sent to prison and not be around town anymore. Phoebus, for the record doesn't die, but they still go after her for attempted murder. And that's the point where Frolo just straight up attempts to rape her and is stopped by Quasimodo. That's the final breaking point, because that's the moment where Frolo realizes he's jealous of Qausi and is like, "Welp, I'm a lost cause, might as well just go scorched Earth on everybody."

[@GigiBranconi]

Very interesting, thanks for the summary! But now I am grieving that there isn't a more book accurate adaptation out there. Some small changes could be made, there are some sensitive themes that most people would rather avoid and I get that. But boy, this sounds so much more complex and interesting

[@cheezemonkeyeater]

@@GigiBranconi He really is. I love the book. I read it usually once a year.

[@teamdragonslayers-w5z]

​@@GigiBranconiAlso, in the book, Claude does have a brother. A 16-year-old (or so) brother, who... Yup, sliding downwards, as Claude thinks, but still really loves him and blames himself, Esmerelda and his lust for her for Jehan's death (well, he joined the Court of Miracles and was killed), so it's totally complicated

[@mylifeisacomplexpastiche7901]

I guess you could say that the musical *subverted your expectations??*

[@thecrazedpotatoman]

Ahhhhhh hah. *AHHH HAAAAAH.* That was supposed to be the woody laugh.

[@pjdixon6199]

"Kill me"

[@agodawfulmspaintabominatio2631]

„Later.“ *closes fridge *

[@PaxIesus]

Eh...more like it superverted his expectations. It improved upon his expectations and gave more depth rather than take away from the original. (but that said, I get the joke, laughed at it, etc. Not an r/whoosh situation. ;) )

[@markborishnikoff5485]

Rian Johnson and the Game of Thrones writers would like a word with you.

[@adamswift5555]

Musical: Good backstory. Movie: KILLS MOTHER, TRIES TO DROWN BABY, AND IMPRISONS 3 MEN?!

[@thelittlemanfromthedraftbo6805]

Almost burns a family and kills Esmeralda, Quasimodo and Phoebus

[@woohboywooh2263]

Also commits tax fraud in Israel through 2003-2006

[@Egghead012]

Pff, you think frollo is a villain, Meet Yuki Terumi, He's sadistic, brutal, and drowns you in despair.

[@Egghead012]

@Siper no, disney villains pale in comparison to how sadistic terumi is

[@yeethittter1285]

@@Egghead012 get outta here with your anime

[@HD.418]

I would argue that Frollo in Disney is about as complex as a Disney character can get, given the other factors moving the plot forward, as well as creating and developing the other characters and their relationships. Frollo is straight out evil yes, but what makes him complex in the Disney film is that he twists the ideology of faith into justification of both his actions and hatred for gypsies and his additional desire to eradicate them. Hellfire is great in showing this complexity because not only is he fighting between his faith and belief (and hatred for Gypsies too) and the twisted lust he has for Esmeralda, but between what could be considered his ‘good’ and ‘evil’ consciousness. It is the sole reason for his struggle in that number, he knows what he feels is considered bad and the consequence for giving in to them will result worse for him, but his desire and use of twisted justification makes the argument that they deserves all that he is about to do to them, that *she* deserves it. So it makes for a very interesting character I think.

[@howdypardner6278]

*Notre Dame burns in HBOND* *Notre Dame burns in real life* Quasimodo: tHaT wAs HiS mIsTaKe!

[@HORSESNDOGS9]

Was that a big hero 6 reference?

[@dasirrlicht5415]

Well, I guess it IS a movie, is it not?

[@sarahparker1414]

If you look closely in the movie, Frollo has half of the infinity stones on his fingers, that's why he is so evil

[@jessharrison460]

Yessss!!!!

[@IchCharacter]

*Paris snap*

[@justyouraveragemartian783]

I was going to make an "I dont feel so good" meme but i havent seen it yet, sadly... *sad noises*

[@coskunagra8785]

But irone man managed to get all the stones at the endgame Hmm

[@Lorcan_Caradoc]

Reminds of Jafar in a way

[@IceGoddessRukia]

Sure Frollo may not be that complex, but I am still gonna love Hellfire forever and the voice actor who did an amazing job. (not to mention I love how he is animated)

[@LeonardBillsMcGoatPryor]

The man's name was Tony Jay.

[@SRLovesPandas1]

The Batman Of Neo-Gotham RIP

[@barrelboople4301]

"Oooo! That's the golden rule!" I personally learned that from Twisted 😌

[@sophiehale1171]

Yeah twisted fan in the house

[@jasonrich4940]

The actor who played Frollo is Patrick Page. He's also in Hadestown, the new musical that just leaped from regional to Broadway and is up for 14 Tony's. Oh, and he plays Hades. A villain even more complex and twisted and fascinating than Frollo

[@breadddie]

Jason Rich his voice in why do we build the wall in the new cast album baffles me like how does he go so low, it’s crazy good

[@breadddie]

also i knew i’d seen him before and now i know why

[@eliseb2800]

I wouldn't call Hades twisted, or even a true villain... He certainly has good intentions, albeit misguided. He's definitely one of the most complex characters in theater though.

[@bymeerabrowngothicroyal]

Elise B I think he just wants to be with his wife in the beginning and then the power gets to his head and it twists him into a greedy capitalist overlord who ruins people’s lives and convinces them to sell their souls.

[@eliseb2800]

@@bymeerabrowngothicroyal exactly. He's trying to do what he thinks Persephone would want but gets caught up in it all. Hadestown ends with a hint of redemption for him when he promises to try again.

[@Directionless.Sponge]

Movie Frollo: sinful perv Theatre Frollo: Nice Guy(TM)

[@bbdc1252]

Movie frollo: fictional preist Musical frollo: real priest

[@mckenzie.latham91]

@@bbdc1252 LOL the animated frollo is more real and true to the dark side of human nature...especially set in the medieval era where being different or disfigured often got you tortured and or killed... Hell people in those times used to believe that people born with disfigurements were cursed by god or as a result of some great sin by the parents...which made the child unclean. Personally i like both versions, but too pretend like one is a caricature is wishful thinking.

[@TheRojo387]

@@bbdc1252 Movie Frollo wasn't even a priest; he was a corrupt judge!

[@gaearsonist6820]

@@TheRojo387 I heard from peeps that they just made him a judge bcuz disney didn't want beef with the church

[@TheRojo387]

@@gaearsonist6820 Cowards.

[@angelita98gaby]

Coming back to watch this on August 29, 2020, and wasn’t ready for the SNL skit with Chadwick Boseman in it. Rest In Peace, King.

[@tysondennis1016]

Wakanda forever

[@FL0ra_favvn]

That's a day after my birthday

[@DesteryandScorger]

I feel bad cuz I've never seen black panther. Still have mad respect for the dead. Prayers for his family and his clear path in the afterlife

[@carolinemaddy9779]

@@DesteryandScorger it’s ok if you didn’t watch it. But you should...

[@notanundesirable]

“How many poses does movie Frollo have? 0” *movie Frollo proceeds to t-pose on the ground*

[@WobblesandBean]

Hate to ruin the joke but that's actually a thing Catholics do. It's called prostration.

[@GalekC]

T-prostration

[@kingdavegueco457]

Frollo is a floor ganger

[@eyesofthecervino3366]

Planking.

[@ElizahMendoza]

That's a Y tho

[@juliaerickson2399]

The first time I saw the Hunchback Of Notre Dame was in French class, and we were watching the French dub so of course none of us knew wtf was going on. And even though we couldn’t understand them, when Frollo sniffed Esmeraldas hair we all went “Hey, woah what the hell?” As a class 😂

[@matthewreyes9640]

Julia Erickson it’s funnier if you guys said it in French 😂

[@imscaredofchairs6806]

Julia Erickson Same here lol. I was the only one who knew how to speak fluent French since I grew up in France. So after class I had to explain what was going on to everyone.

[@unenouille430]

I’m actually french from Québec, so OF COURSE I know this musical and I LOVE it.

[@imscaredofchairs6806]

Une Nouille aye mate! I’m from Quebec too!

[@jeresa7968]

Julia Erickson LoL

[@laurendearnley9595]

Frollos a pretty complex character for a kids movie. He's religious, and many western children are raised in some kind of faith. He's a judge, an office we treat with inherent respect. He has a laudable goal, to make Paris a better place, but his means to achieve that are horrific. He's driven by lust against his better judgement and eventually gives in to this temptation, as many of us do, albeit without taking it to such extremes. Most Disney villains just want the vague goal of "more power" (Scar, Jafar, Ursula, Yzma), others want more clear cut but smaller goals (Evil Queen wants beauty, Gaston wants Belle, Cruella wants a coat) and the others are motivated by revenge (Hades, Maleficient, Hook). Frollo starts off hurting people because he thinks the means justify the ends in order to make Paris pure, and his own vices are what bring him down - Phoebus, Quasimodo and the rest of Paris would have let him keep on persecuting the gypsies if he hadn't gone after Esmeralda specifically and burned Paris to get her

[@zuzuomelete]

THIS!!! I mean, the movie is really just a reflection of the twisted mindset that fucked up (and still fucks up) a good chunk of the world.

[@atrep4585]

Frollo best Disney villian change my mind Obviously Tamatoa is too godlike to be judged as a mere villian

[@josephbilderback4549]

Maleficent

[@atrep4585]

@@josephbilderback4549 you got me there

[@greenoftreeblackofblue6625]

@@atrep4585 damn you gave up fast

[@ArendAlphaEagle]

Please, as if Frollo could EVER top Dr Doofenshmirtz. Where's HIS tragic backstory, huh??

[@Kapnohuxi_folium]

Boogie oogie

[@alice-in-wonderland5900]

“That’s the golden rule! I learned from veggie tales” I learned that from Twisted from Jafar lmao

[@amyyoung9889]

Orly Doe I’ve learned everything from twisted

[@yodelgoats790]

THIS IS THE SECOND TWISTED COMMENT IVE SEEN. I AM PLEASED.

[@mckaylawilliams4642]

I get back what I *Giiiiiiiiiivvvvvveeee*

[@oliver4705]

Very glad to see the starkid fandom out here too

[@projectanimation7730]

Orly Doe oH HELL YES

[@imdrum6881]

One of the problems about the movie is that it's a big company. Big part of Frollo's villain arc in the musical is his religiosity, how he seems trustful for being a part of the church, but isn't. And Disney can't do that: too much religion that can and would cause so many problems to them, so that's why the changed it from the book to being a judge, which is far easier for the audience to picture as evil. That's wasted potential, yes, but I get why they didn't make it that way

[@thepassingstatic6268]

Pretty much. Theres only so much you can do in terms of character development when it comes to a PG film. This musical looks like it incorporated more of the book into it, adding more layers that would most likely go over a child's head.

[@thunderbird1921]

This really was NOT a good story for Disney to make a film of. If they show the full novel, they risk being viewed as anti-religion (or at least anti-Christian). You know the backlash THAT movie would receive. If they change the story too much (which I felt they did), they would and did anger the novel readers. The story ends the opposite of what Disney shows.

[@Sakisasvictorianmask]

@@thunderbird1921 I disagree actually, there's no harm in the way they made the movie, especially considering they made it a kids movie (with amazing music). They didn't copyright the source material, so everyone who wants can make another movie adaption - I would rather have more adaptions, than less.

[@kittymagica6408]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I heard he was changed to a judge by Victor Hugo for a stage production he did of his book.

[@morgothfromangband6082]

The judges were inquisitors who were most religious in that time.

[@threedicksonabench3141]

“The greatest Disney villain to ever exist.” Our crab boi: Hold my gold.

[@notyourdaughter666]

Cri Lune woah holy shit I haven’t seen that image in your profile picture in YEARS, I’m surprised someone still has it!

[@chanwoo8202]

Girl: **never texts back** Schaffrillas: **sings burn & michael in the bathroom**

[@krisdeltarun]

PFT-

[@ktw5574]

Burning in the bathroom

[@writerinpanic]

@@ktw5574 RICH SET A FIRE AND HE BURNED DOWN THE HOUSE

[@kirawestenra5077]

Talking about musicals for 5 hrs as a date? 2 T-Pose references? A SIX reference?!? You are now my favourite KZbinr!!!!!

[@lainegarcia6723]

YEAH. AND SAFIYA NYGAARD. SHE TOO.

[@SUMMONER917]

Yo I was not prepared for that shit

[@mirkohoble]

I came for curiosity and stayed for Anne of Cleves

[@inmariokartimalwaysdaisy]

Kira Westenra 11/10

[@franziska9260]

@@mirkohoble leapt out of my seat when I heard it

[@Emerlees]

20:53 me (out loud): don't say it. don't say it. schaffrillas: TAMATOA me: GODDAMNIT!

[@rojax_thevoicetm2385]

Tama Toa babyyyyyyyyyy

[@victim109]

it could be worse he could have brought up hitler

[@pleasemisterpostman1549]

I knew he was going to say it

[@bouncingbuttons7441]

patrick page is such a brilliant actor. the characterization he brings to frollo is beautiful and truly a showcase of his talent.

[@valeriebarbera1061]

When I watched this bootleg I couldn’t stop laughing whenever Frollo was on screen cuz his sleeves make it look like he has really tiny arms Don’t get me wrong I love this musical but I just thought it was HILARIOUS for some reason lol

[@thepassingstatic6268]

Nah, that costume isnt the most flattering. He had the Catholic T-Rex going on

[@addyendss737]

Playing a gargoyle was hell on my knees

[@mrpaintwolf2010]

Movia frollo T-Poses at the end of Hellfire when he lays down, boom, checkmate athiests

[@technicolour7619]

Frollo used to terrify me as a kid. Now as an adult he still terrifies me. He's so real. Knowing what I know of humanity like this story could have happened. A person in power with a penchant for getting his way by any means necessary... It sounds like real life. AND I DON'T LIKE IT!

[@Tarnished-bn5gq]

You aren’t supposed to like it, any in particular, you aren’t supposed to like him. He’s intentionally based on Amon Goeth, you know, one of the highest ranking members of the SS.

[@adrivoid5376]

Im glad you saw this musical! I love it- the fact they clarified that the gargoyles are a product of Quasi's isolation, Quasi in general having is voice go from a warped spoken voice to his internal singing voice being so beautiful, the addition of these great songs, and the complexity of Frollo that makes it so much more adult and interesting. I am sad this never went to broadway, its stunning with its background choir and scenery.

[@tropicmarines9583]

Schrafrillas: Oh wait, did I miss a character? Me: Yes, Clopin.

[@dilflover07]

My favourite character

[@Hugealligator254]

Doesn’t he not exist in the musical?

[@tropicmarines9583]

@@Hugealligator254 He’s in the musical.

[@jp3813]

The stage musical still poses the question "What makes a monster, and what makes a man?" Hence, one could argue that presenting Frollo as merely a flawed human being betrays that moral. For the stage version can never truly label him as a monster. The fact is, there are people in real life who are just inexplicably evil. Motivations shaped by petty reasons, and movie Frollo represents that perfectly.

[@sadtitties222]

@jp3813 Agreed.

[@mckenzie.latham91]

Here here...

[@JWeb66]

In the movie its clear that Frollo is the monster and Quasimodo the man while in the play both display elements of the monsterous and the human. Ultimatly there is no difference between a monster and a man, all therr is is there actions and how they deal with the consequenses. Quasi with solemn sorrow and Frollo with desperate denile.

[@jp3813]

@@JWeb66 Then the question should be "Is there a difference between monster and man?" On stage, it's clear that Quasimodo is labeled as a monster and Frollo as a man. Then the narrative blurs the line between them. Never answering what truly makes one from the other.

[@theyketchup4544]

In the movie, the question is "Who is the monster, and who is the man?" and I feel like asking "what" instead of "who" drives people to think more.

[@WobblesandBean]

12:12 I'm really, really glad you brought this up. Most people either don't want to discuss it, or gloss over it, explicitly _because_ it's uncomfortable to talk about, but it's undeniably a thing that happens. A lot. Thank you for daring to drag such a dark topic out onto the light to be seen like that. It needs to happen more often.

[@LAZERAK47V2]

Dude, Frollo was easily Disney's best villain, at least in terms of believable baddies. People who have superiority complexes, especially in a moral standing, are so utterly convinced of their own righteousness that they believe they can do no wrong. We see it in real life too, the rampant hypocrisy infesting social media. These people will not stop to consider their own faults, calling anyone who calls them out the enemy, regardless of how valid their points are. They justify their hatred towards them by claiming that they "deserve" it for not thinking like they do, living like they do or acting like they do. Every atrocity in human history is precipitated by large groups of people all believing the same thing and who refuse to question themselves. They hold themselves blameless, because it "had" to be done. Frollo is a truly despicable villain because he embodies all of humanity's worst traits: capacity for hate, destruction, deception, all while mounting himself on a pedestal. In fact, the only time he truly acknowledges his own weakness is during the Hellfire song (absolute banger of a song), but again, he takes all the blame off himself, claiming that it's the devil's fault and not a weakness in himself. In that moment of self-realization, he affirms his own corruption, rather than questioning himself and growing as a person. Again, something a lot of people do, refusing to see the truth about themselves when it's presented to them explicitly. Frollo is not a "comically evil villain". He is a very REAL villain and chances are, we've ALL met someone exactly like him. While it's very true that many villains are simply misguided or morally complex, people like Frollo also exist, as well people who fall on the opposite side and who are just genuinely good people. Edit: I deliberately tried to make this as ambiguous as possible, as I'm well aware that every batch of apples will have some rotten ones. Please don't take this as an attack on an individual group of people.

[@lizardlee10]

I mean, Frollo was played by Patrick Page, of course he was perfect.

[@steampunksamp80]

The aladdin musical was amazing when i saw it, the genie was like a pro stunt actor, did splits, was energetic, and put so much energy into it, it was really good, I can say this honestly, it was very good

[@jacksonblome1976]

I just worked on the lighting for a version of this show at a community theater in downtown Benton, Arkansas. It’s pretty much the same as the version you mentioned here. I gotta say, it’s so much better than the movie. I can’t talk about all of what it did better, but I will say that they did do an amazing job of rewriting Frollo. He’s so much more grounded in reality, and much scarier. It was such an honor for me to be a part of it! It’s such an amazing show!

[@shrooooomie]

You know that Frollo's evil when he T-poses two an a half minutes into the musical

[@lorrainem.swartzentruber3077]

Props to Patrick Page. The best musical villian ever. (Spiderman, Hadestown, Lion King & Hunchback)

[@casperrabbit7254]

Honestly I thought it was very cool and sexy of Disney to introduce a villain and have him not only kill someone but give so little of a shit about it that he immediately gears up for a second kill within one minute of being introduced to the audience 😍 One of many scenes in the movie which floored me by how brutally dark it was lmao

[@Allykins101]

I'm literally wearing my Beauty and the Beast Musical hoodie while watching this. The Beast has THE BEST SONG in the musical. "If I Can't Love Her" is a piece to my heart.

[@amo4god]

Man, thank you for this video! I am so glad I know about The Hunchback of Notre Dame musical now!!

[@Sofia-ge6wm]

Fun fact: The stage version of Frollo is played by Patrick Page who also plays Hades in Hadestown!

[@kf990]

So I guess if Frollo isn’t the greatest Disney villain ever than it has to be a villain with no flaws... Me: Just put the crab on screen

[@almond_orchid8185]

“I just want someone who I can talk to musicals with for five hours” honestly, if that’s not relatable i don’t know what is

[@QuestionableObject]

"too evil" Yeah ok but... Pretty realistic depiction of religious authorities back then. Or authorities in general back then. Hell authorities now when nobody's looking...

[@porter5224]

ree religion is evil

[@QuestionableObject]

@@porter5224 Authoritarianism is evil. Religion is fine.

[@porter5224]

@@QuestionableObject yeah, It's just that you're associating them, by associating authority with religious authority.

[@QuestionableObject]

@@porter5224 Religious authority is authority.... Hello?

[@AceofSpadesgirl]

My thoughts exactly it’s not like he’s cartoon evil, he’s the harsh reality of many pious religious leaders from the past and present day. And that is what makes it so chilling. It’s not hidden or hushed like it is in the religious community it’s very blatant and raw

[@zhisu2665]

Frollo's EXIST IRL even in 2023.

[@wandanemer2630]

AND FROLLO ALSO T-POSES LITERALLY RIGHT BEFORE BEING KILLED!! THAT'S *THREE* T-POSES!! 🔥🤘🤘🔥

[@keepingupwithculver545]

Esmeralda said “why me? Out of all people, why me?”

[@b34nz_ch33ze_nJG]

Schafrillas: "I guess we'll have to give that distinction to a villain that has no flaws" Me: "When's the line coming in..? . . .aandddd . . "TOMATOA BABY!!" "There it is"

[@isaiahdavis9486]

Well, Patrick Page is Hades in Hadestown now.

[@KatintheHat2022]

Isaiah Davis I recognized him in this vid because I saw him in Hadestown!!!!

[@skirdus367]

_"Not that a character who progresses into a villain is too complex for kids to understand, but Disney would never try to tackle that sort of thing."_ Varian from Rapunzel's Tangled Adventure says hello

[@crois5035]

bro, i haven't even watched that show, but I heard Ready As I'll Ever Be and I already know I love it

[@ginogatash4030]

who dafuq is Varian?

[@ginogatash4030]

@Fluffy Bear & Smoll Pillow what you're describing sounds like a twist villain, did she start off good, or was she morally grey all throughout?

[@GihirahimOfTheShadow]

@Fluffy Bear & Smoll Pillow Um, you are talking about CASSANDRA, not Varian. Varian was the teenage alchemist from the first season who starts off as a good-natured, clumsy, adorkable kid and by the end is a crazed, vengeful terrorist and attempted murderer.

[@jojo-xk8ri]

@@ginogatash4030 no, not very much a twist villian. He feels betrayed by rapunzel and the whole throne and it leads him down a dark path basically. Watch ready as I'll ever be. It's a masterpiece.

[@pufflefluff843]

Reason why it never made it Broadway is because essentially, by Broadway terms, it was too Catholic.

[@dubiousseed3272]

That's stupid

[@flamingofry]

Wait, really??

[@grantmemoli4776]

I mean ever seen Book of Mormon, or Hand of God.....

[@brookewells7208]

Incorrect. The reason it didn't make it to broadway is because the union wouldn't pay for the chorus when it would get put on broadway. The creators believed that the removal of the choral background entirely would be... horrible, and so they simply refused to go to broadway if the chorus would not be a part of it.

[@brookewells7208]

@Bridget Driscoll Because the amount of people it requires for the chorus. The people need to be paid, and being in a broadway show means you get paid hundreds of dollars for the period of the show. The expenses to pay for every single chorus member, not counting the ensemble members (as Hunchback casts the gargoyles/congregants/gypsies as one ensemble, and the chorus is cast as their own seperate part.) was just far too much. Union makes sure that every actor gets their expected paid, and just wouldn't allow so many people to get underpaid.

[@ebervaliusahau2289]

Movie Frollo is complex for Disney villains' standards, I'd say

[@catstuxedo6321]

That is not a very high bar.

[@ebervaliusahau2289]

A bar is a bar, ey

[@poisonweb773]

Nobody: Frollo: “WitchCraft”!

[@blackheartzerotheundergrou3225]

The C in Witchcraft doesn't need to be capitalized. What you did is make the title for what should be an online game, if it isn't already.

[@blahblahblah6810]

You dont understand I heard this

[@azzulbustillo]

I’ll talk with you about musicals for five hours lmao let’s go.

[@theincredibleshibe2462]

Lmao me too

[@waywardlaser]

Still my favourite out of all of Disney's films. I swear I watch this once every few months. I've listened to the stage musical's soundtrack on Spotify and it really makes me want to see the live show.

[@lolbutt124]

The version I saw at my community theatre was that Frollo's brother had a child with a Romani woman so that meant that Quasimodo was part Romani giving another reason Frollo is abusive to Quasi.

[@LucarioBot]

The Disney version of quasi modo was under the wing of a romani what are you talking about

[@porsche6036]

Anyone: Twist Schafrillas: T H A T W A S H I S M I S T A K E

[@federalcasemaker]

Shrek: T H A T W A S M Y M I S T A K E

[@creepycrow31]

as soon as I read this comment, the "that was his mistake" at the end of the video played

[@anduril2132]

Lyra's Life What’s the time stamp?

[@noskhk2266]

1k likes my dude

[@youronetruegodcthulhu5043]

If that's him "resisting her", I'd hate to see him NOT "resisting her".

[@JunieBug]

Holy cow, you're right-

[@bucketsoupe]

Your one true god Cthulhu oh, that’s that scene where he literally tries to rape her...yeah

[@heyheyheyheyheyhey76]

Talking about lust in a child's movie. That was one tough act from Disney. Frollo was a sexual predator. To be fair though nothing about the movie in general was for kids.

[@jeremysworld3061]

@@heyheyheyheyheyhey76 except the gargoyles

[@_tasiaxnot]

@@jeremysworld3061 tbh the gargoyles in hunchback were even that bad except for the stupid fat one.

[@quinnschulte9291]

As a Catholic myself, what I love about the religious aspect of this movie is how instead of looking to god and asking for help and forgiveness, he looks at everyone else and uses paper thin logic to explain how this is their fault or even god’s fault for making him feel this way. A textbook narcissist who can’t have an arc because he refuses to change and looks at himself as god.

[@chileanyways196]

Same!!

[@jendoe9436]

Pride is known as the chief sin for a reason. Lucifer could have remained one of God’s best and most beloved angels, but instead he put his own ideas above God’s and tried to overthrow Him.

[@brandanimations3790]

There's something that i find interesting that I saw in the video, Schaffrillas says that Frollo gets crazier as his lust progresses and this is what sin is, a deordinated passion that if given enough time, makes the person mad as we see with Frolo in the plot. There's also some supernatural stuff in the plot like the gargoyles in which I genuinely think are a Guardian Angel.

[@RandomGuy-ej5dr]

Catholic but you write God with the small g.

[@SeveralRatsEachWithArcanePower]

​@@RandomGuy-ej5drhe even mispelled catholic. Its spelled pedophile*

[@UnculturedSwineStudios]

Why is there a large crowd of people lining up at my door asking for money

[@oasis9615]

Uncultured Swine Entertainment considering you're a swine, you must be a piggy bank.

[@mr.cesseri2056]

OwO

[@nerdwarp112]

I love your profile picture. It’s such a powerful image.

[@Trailminer]

It’s the man, the myth, the legend.... The pig.

[@TriptuneRadio]

Cause I'm the one holding the gun

[@pessoaanonima8435]

*Did I miss a character?* My strange brain: yes,the goat

[@theMRsome12]

It was in the original book? Does that help?

[@ColdNapalm42]

The goat was a major character in the book. No really.

[@Mark-ye2tn]

Djali!! Yes the goat was the main reason Esmeralda was put on trial for witchcraft because the people of medieval france couldn't understand teaching animals tricks.

[@pessoaanonima8435]

@@Mark-ye2tn :0

[@sethhowell3067]

Well I’m sorry to disappoint you, but there’s no goat in the musical

[@bheronz]

Frollo : *stabs Phoebus* Also Frollo : Why would Esmeralda do this?

[@yvyrose195]

Sounds like an Eric Andre meme to me.

[@alejandraayala8815]

10/10 great use of the meme

[@adumb7124]

Who killed Phoebus?

[@jessicadinep8709]

lmao perfect

[@lisaleyendekker8305]

Frollo: (stabs Phoebus) also Frollo: Esmerelda, why'd you stab him?

[@Sataandagi96]

You call it "too evil", I call it "historically accurate".

[@imdrum6881]

LMAOO

[@orangeslash1667]

@MecherWulf Fun Fact: Disney confirmed that movies Frollo is based on Amon Goeth from Schindler's list!!!!

[@tophatcat1173]

Yeah, frollo not only could exist in the real world, but almost definitely did exist in the real world.

[@jaserror]

still accurate until now - look at your typical GOP and NRA representatives and grifters.

[@JohnnyCageRock]

@@tophatcat1173 Read about Heinrich Kramer. Aka the author of the "Malleus Maleficarum". The man responsible for making witchcraft a feminine crime all because he was a clearly sexually repressed individual. So much so that his one and only witch trial he made prior writing the book, was dismissed as he was clearly obsessed with the sexual activities of the accused. She got away, he got salty about it, therefore he had to tell the world that woman are essentially the bane of evil. What a prick.

[@matthewstanley1521]

When Frollo said “You could stay here, with me” and reached his hand towards hers, my stomach dropped so fast I needed to catch my breath a little

[@dry-leaves]

I know right??!! Gosh it was so awkward oooOF

[@matthewstanley1521]

Rina It wasn’t really cause of awkwardness per se, more like it genuinely surprised, scared, and disgusted me to that extent.

[@masterspark9880]

I don’t think you’ve watched the movie then. He does much worse stuff than that

[@matthewstanley1521]

@@masterspark9880 I know he does. It’s just that he acted much more like a reasonable person in the musical at first. So the evil parts felt more shocking and real.

[@neontenebrae1918]

@@matthewstanley1521 Not to mention it is a very, VERY real and relatable situation to many, many people. That sort of luring into a false sense of comfort from someone preying on you is unfortunately something too many people experience, and the musical gets that feeling down to such a precise degree that it's HORRIFYING, honestly the cringe I felt watching that made me nearly turn the video off lmao

[@asingleleghair]

Fun fact: I went to a showing of this musical and Quasimodo's actor was actually deaf! He would sign the lyrics to songs while one of the gargoyles would sing for him. It was awesome

[@johnaustindelozier2056]

Bro was this in Seattle???

[@littlemisstfc]

It happened at a showing I watched years ago too! :D

[@Alchemy818.]

Thats awesome!

[@sunshinesolace3540]

That's amazing!

[@tonycommodore8929]

YES!!! They did that for the production in La Mirada. I saw both the La Jolla American Premier with Michael Arden(Director: Once On This Island) and Patrick Page(Hadestown) as Quasi and Frollo respectively. Both hugely talented and the show was great.. Then 2 years later in La Mirada, with a deaf actor speaking the role of Quasi and the lead gargoyle as his singing voice. It was spectacular and a far superior production. Moved me to tears multiple times, with the beauty of the way Quasi was portrayed. The later production also fixed the Chorus/Gargoyles narrative. I still MUCH prefer the Berlin staging, especially towards the end with Made of Stone going right into Someday and Finale Ultimo. But the La Mirada version was GORGEOUS! Thank you Cathy Rigby!! I still feel Disney Theatrical really missed the mark in NOT bringing this to Broadway with no money spared.

[@masterspark9880]

There are many people in real life even today who hate Romani people for no reason. Just because he doesn’t have a reason to hate them doesn’t mean it’s unrealistic for him to hate them

[@lydia8526]

Though I am sure people in real life have (both understandable and dumb) reasons to hate romani people or anyone in general

[@RubyBlueUwU]

It’s like he forgot that racism was a thing for the duration of this video 😬

[@catalayalafaye5337]

Also the therm can be quite offensive, so maybe he should have used another one.

[@spencerfrankclayton4348]

@@catalayalafaye5337 No.

[@festethephule7553]

@@spencerfrankclayton4348 The proper word is Roma I believe, with "Gypsy" being widely considered offensive.

[@victoriakapusta1306]

"I jUsT wAnT sOmEoNe tO tAlK aBOuT mUsIcAlS wITh fOr 5 hOuRs" I'm honestly right here. don't make this harder than it needs to be

[@leadingblind1629]

Hi. Nice to meet you Talk Carrie and Shrek??? 😛 people hate me

[@xPrincessJellyfishx]

@@leadingblind1629 I looooove Carrie and Shrek

[@loubug9309]

Same. I'm willing to talk about musicals for as long as you want.

[@elisahatz]

Victoria Kapusta Can we talk about how you shouldn’t ship dead people? *cough* Hamillton *cough*

[@Lorcan_Caradoc]

I used to right like that not anymore though

[@ChattinBoxingWYB]

Disney's most human and realistic villain! The fact that he's so complex and that world has had a history of highly misguided religious zealots. Is what makes Frollo relatable and terrifying.

[@LucarioBot]

And he’s based off of schindlers list’s depiction of Amon goeth who was a lot tamer than the real deal

[@user-qv2mc3dw5o]

‘Relatable’

[@AlechiaTheWitch]

@@user-qv2mc3dw5o where u ever bullied as a child?

[@crypt5129]

relatable

[@marocat4749]

Yep, he is scary human

[@kennyflanders8337]

Fun fact about Frollo: The Disney executives intentionally made Frollo as evil as possible because they wanted to remove stereotype and saying that "Evil is cool" among Disney Villains

[@heatherpony]

The bad guy is an unlikable religious fanatic. Yes.

[@misterminutes4504]

It didn't work. I still love villains

[@misterminutes4504]

@@Ari-vc5lg Haha disney

[@tainasiman2107]

same thing probaly on removing be prepared from live action lion king

[@Isabelle-hv6ny]

But he has one of the best songs.

[@prinplup121]

“Movie Frollo never T-poses!” *Shows only clip of movie Frollo T-posing*

[@yeethittter1285]

*Also shows footage of movie Frollo T-posing at the ground*

[@MarcusCato275]

@@yeethittter1285 yeah. Frollo is prostrating eg a sign of the penitent

[@luisalbertoarenasaraya4579]

Power of God is his strength.

[@zanemob1429]

*T-pose to assert dominance*

[@idkwhatimdoing5268]

It's more of a V pose

[@annareichert15]

I just thought I would point out that the "T-Pose" is supposed to be a parallel with the crucifixion. He obviously sees himself as pious and righteous, as well as the sinless one among the crowd. Every time he does something where you question his morals, he parallels the crucifixion with his body language. Just thought I would throw that out there.

[@mayhare8487]

Great observation

[@transendentemcorp]

T-pose on those sinners

[@skythelooker9208]

Yeah he just making a joke

[@Ballin4Vengeance]

Beata Maria. You know I am a righteous man.

[@rosemary_carll]

No, T-posing gets rid of the sin in any room

[@PineapplePineapplePineapplePin]

Actually, Disney *Intentionally* made Frollo as evil as possible to get rid of the "Evil is Cool" stereotype

[@SamGlaze]

Too bad it backfired because Frollo is clearly the coolest

[@redoned.8446]

Samuel Glaze ah yes, wanting to kill a baby and seduce someone and later almost burn them alive is so tight

[@eevee1583]

@@redoned.8446 It's the closest we get to cool

[@balanc-joy9187]

That's what I thought first too. What bothers me in the musical is that Quasimodo is shown to be more delusional in the musical (I haven't seen it, but the stuff I've heard bothers me) like his gargoyles urging him to kill Frollo...

[@dominickperez2952]

@@redoned.8446 Hell Yeah it is! ( pun intended )

[@humblememer2640]

Frollo: *t poses* Me: no wonder why he has God's word

[@feragosmyxixarashtra7948]

Amen,my child.

[@hazmat4938]

Hes just trying to be one with the cross

[@feragosmyxixarashtra7948]

@@hazmat4938 „Cross posing”

[@ezj8262]

God's word didn't create a Nicolaitan heirarchical structure, which Jesus said He hated. Even Peter never lorded himself over the flock, nor was he ever a pope. The counterfeit system, is that of demonism with a veneer of belonging to God. As satan desired, to be 'like' the most high. Satan copies the things of God, creating counterfeits, and redirects mankind's worship of God, onto himself. Even in the book of Revelation, his desire is to put himself in the third temple (which will be built in the end times) in Israel and declare himself to be God. But you're right, there are plenty of people who wield spiritual authority over people, but not in the truth. The book of Jeremiah speaks about this. Even the movie...the Book of Eli shows that wicked people can be aware that when people think they have some kind of special mediatorship between God and man, that they can become figures of great authority. We see this with the institution of the popes, and even Muhammad's supplanting of the Israeli religion, to put himself and his views in place of it.

[@brb.8962]

A M E N

[@himdevil2391]

I completely disagree. Making Frollo evil from the very start and showing him progressively get worse just hammers home the fact that these types of people are never self-aware of how wicked they are. Making a villain sympathetic doesn't automatically make them complex and I really wish that type of thinking would die. Frollo was 3 dimensional because of how realistic his portrayal was. He's so convinced he's right that he fails to see how wrong he is. This results in him committing almost every sin by the end of the movie despite constantly emphasizing his righteousness. And even with how deplorable Frollo's actions are. He still feels human due to his mindset very much being prevalent in real people. I agree that the theatre adoption of him was great. But I very much prefer the movie Frollo. Him being their evilest villain is why so many people give the movie praise. Adding on to why I disagree that he was too evil. Other than that, great video. It's nice to see your take on him.

[@YouKnowImOnMyPeriodYah]

Fr! It’s that bullshit where Disney tried to give every villain a sad backstory (cough cough, cruella and maleficent) and then idiots in the comments spew sad quotes that villains are “misunderstood”. Okay? But the villain attempted murder/murdered people, idgaf if their story is sad lol

[@samcochran8203]

While that is a fair assessment of how movie Frollo was shown in his cruelty and underhanded villainy, it falls victim to one assumption, that movie Frollo doesn't feel like he's doing something wrong at any point, part of what makes Hellfire so great is that it's not just him grappling with the fact that he's feeling, in his opinion, such fallible emotions that any common man or sinner would have, but even more so towards someone he doesn't even give the full benefit or acknowledgment of being human, simply because they don't believe the way he does, being torn between what he's feeling now and the fact that feeling the very feeling itself is against what he believes in, and even entertaining this feeling means his worldview of himself is shaken as he is now just like any other member of the vulgar weak licentious crowd, he is but a man, falling to his base instincts, his sins, his damnation. He entertains the notion for just a bit, that he feels he is failing in his duty/authority as a judge of the wicked, but then he turns it into his own self conclusion that he is the judge of the wicked, so he must be right in what he is feeling, he is gaslighting himself at this point, thus begins his failure in seeing his error and true sin. In this way, as is echoed in the mantra of the movie, who is the monster? Frollo goes from being an arrogant prideful despicable person in cunning control of his inner demons and directing them upon who he deems as wicked through his dirty dealings, to a monstrous villain who has lost all control of his inner beast, and is being mindlessly driven by his puppeteering emotions, base human drives, and his mighty demons. Musical Frollo is still better as he shows a more reasonable descent into this thing he becomes, and it's a lot more impactful as he was originally someone who could've turned off this path like Schaff said, but as he just keeps going, it really shows how the worst of monsters are the ones that used to care, but no longer do.

[@himdevil2391]

@@samcochran8203 I hate to be rude but could you please use paragraphs and spacing. This was a wall of text that was very hard to read. As for your point, you've just described all the reasons why the movie Frollo is better in my eyes, no offense. It's not unrealistic for Frollo to be a despicable person from the start. Zealots all throughout history have shown to not alter their thinking in the slightest due to narcissism and pride. I don't understand why it's so hard to accept some people simply put are awful. They don't need a reason to be, they just are and too blindsided by their own wickedness to change. Movie Frollo was a much-needed reminder of this. And I thank Disney for showing just how messed up he is without sugar-coating it. Schaff is free to believe that the play version is better, anyone is. I still rightfully stand by the movie version though.

[@samcochran8203]

@@himdevil2391 @Himdevil23 no rudeness put across, I totally do that sometimes with my whole giant text boxes, but as to why I put forth all the reasons behind Frollos villainy you had written before, I just felt the need to clarify a bit why I think he was aware of his faults, whereas you said he wasn't, or at least he was not totally admitant of how awful a person he was, I feel he was aware, he just justified it as his duty to be judge and punisher of those he deemed wicked in the ways of his belief. And for sure people are realistically despicable that way without reason nor care of changing, no offense taken at all. But as to why you think movie frollo is more villainous, I put forth one point that I'm gonna try to put across in a more understable way, I just want to see your take on it. Who would you deem as a more villainous person? Between 2 people, 1 is someone who was malicious cause their just an ahole to everyone no matter what, was already convinced they way of being ruthless is vindicated, and starts to go off the rails in a way that's not entirely out of character or out of turn for them. Number 2 is someone who genuinely wanted to do better at first, was antagonistic towards a lot of certain people because of their past trauma they associate with those people, who then slowly becomes worse and worse and just ends up not caring anymore, because they justify things and trick themselves into believing they are in the right, which ends up all culminating due to them secretly harboring a great and unreasonable hatred for the people they attribute their trauma to, trauma that other people cannot control nor be held reasonably responsible for. Who would you say is truly more villainous? Something I like to think about in reference to questions like this, who is more evil, the one who never could be bothered to be good, or the one who doesn't care about being good anymore?

[@himdevil2391]

@@samcochran8203 Well of course the one that didn't care in the first place. With no empathy for others, there's a lot of destruction that they leave in their paths. And you're just left questioning how lower they'll stoop and rooting for their downfall.

[@Just_Some_Guy_with_a_Mustache]

Shout out to that guy who coughed through every scene of that musical.

[@thelittlemanfromthedraftbo6805]

Poor guy let him cough. I know the struggle of trying to retain a cough just to not be annoying

[@bluegloriousgames]

💜

[@dylanroot6401]

Atleast the actors probably didn't hear it, typically auditoriums and theatres are constructed to project sound outwards, not bring them into the stage

[@johnrebelet5754]

The KZbin wanderer.....

[@bleh1569]

@@thelittlemanfromthedraftbo6805 yup

[@lancejburns]

In the original, Frollo and the Archdeacon are the same character, disney essentially split all of Frollo's positive aspects away and turned them into a separate character.

[@dutchik5107]

Does make kids less likely to develop trust issues of any adult that's nice to em

[@farmerboy916]

An adaptation that explicitly shows the audience that (playing on him having literally good and bad sides within a cohesive but perhaps fracturing whole) could be utterly brilliant.

[@ScarletStarManor]

which I still prefer over the original way he was, I feel he's a lot better being a corrupt judge than the archdeacon and everything, more enjoyable for me.

[@birdieberry]

Despite the nerfed character, the change was probably a smart commercial move for Disney; it could have alienated Catholic audiences, especially since during that time in the 90's the "pedo priest" controversy was blown full force in the public consciousness.

[@asariarchie5734]

birdieberry Catholic audiences already felt alienated by the film. Disney should have gone all out and stuck with the serious tone. It would have increased buzz for the film and made it more popular.

[@aldensteur9107]

"my child, though your people are lost, there may be something in you that can be saved." did frollo just "you're one of the good ones" esmeralda?

[@whalesharko4465]

Yuuuuuuuuuup it would seem that way

[@Call-me-Al]

By the way, your profile picture is great

[@WobblesandBean]

Yup. That's exactly what he did.

[@WobblesandBean]

@@Call-me-Al Ha, I know right? Trans Wirt ftw 💜

[@nunabisness7191]

😬

[@chrussublah4264]

the only thing I fundamentally disagree with is Frollo needing a reason to be racist. Having a neat little reason for the sake of narrative works great for fantasy media with fantasy races (think DnD) but doesn't really work for this story set mostly in real life. Sinti and Roma were historically hated all across europe for being "others". Like how certain racial and ethnic groups were and still are hated all across the world, for no personal reason beyond them being part of those groups. Most people in Nazi Germany didn't have a deeply personal reason to hate the Jewish population. The hate originated in stereotype and discrimination and culminated to a hatred that lead to violence and genocide. It was the same for Sinti and Roma people. So no I don't think Frollo needs a reason for the hatred that was commonplace among people of that time, because it kind of downplays the fact that people don't NEED reasons to be racist. Because there is no rime or reason, no logic to racism as a whole.

[@Aqueox]

"Most people in Nazi Germany didn't have a deeply personal reason to hate the jewish population " Seeing as Nazi Germany was a Christian nation, yes. Yes they did. It's called THOSE WHO KILLED CHRIST. THE SYNAGOGUE OF SATAN.

[@hannahlarocco4699]

What do you the nazis have to do with anything

[@Aqueox]

@@hannahlarocco4699 The guy is probably jewish and has a hate boner for anyone White and Christian. It's kinda their thing.

[@chrussublah4264]

@@hannahlarocco4699 it was an example of a racist group in history that hated people for purely racist/antisemitic reasons, to proof that Frollo having a personal reason for his racism is not necessary. It's a weird thing to try to give a bigot an actual personal and (arguably) understandable reason to hate an ethnic group/race, when that is almost never the case in history. It frames Bigots like Frollo as "Oh he's just a bad apple" when the bigotry against Romani people in Europe was a systematic issue, not a individual one

[@xdsmile5359]

Idk I guess genocide makes one famous

[@alize0623]

PS: in the novel, Esmeralda is 15 years old, kind of naive, and absolutely infatuated with Phoebus who tries to take advantage of her sexually

[@djgamer5458]

wat

[@randomalienfrommars0567]

Aaaaand then he leaves her for a wealthy french noblewoman. And Frollo ends up killing her..... that girl truly can't catch a break huh ;-;

[@alize0623]

DJ GAMER Yeah

[@alize0623]

Emmi the Cat Frog I wanted to beat EVERYONE up in that damn book. Especially the author character

[@JohnDoe-xf8ew]

Esmerelda was also discovered to be the long lost daughter of the woman who initially tried to have her imprisoned. The woman is later stabbed to death when she realizes the truth because she tried to protect Esmerelda.

[@Icepiq72]

Frollo wasn’t “too evil” for the movie, he was just a lot more visibly evil. The hypocrisy and his self-righteousness is still there, but the movie made his evil intentions a lot more visible because it’s advertised to kids and also because they didn’t have the time to flesh out his character

[@tomnorton4277]

They did flesh out his character though. Even went as far as going into his psyche and his literal subconscious in the Hellfire scene. The cloaks chanting "mea culpa" were Frollo's subconscious trying to become conscious in order to get him to stop.

[@jacobdurant5870]

In the movie version the Bells of Notre Dame says "Who is the monster and who is the man?" The musical says "What makes a monster, and what makes a man." I think that's the perfect example of the differences between the movie and musical.

[@aderose]

The “What makes a Monster and what makes a man?” Line is actually used in the reprise of Bells of Notre Dame.

[@stormyd1869]

What makes a movie and what makes a musical

[@nanax5424]

um yes and no? themovie uses both those lines in the first song in the movie and in the reprisal of the song at the end, the play uses the "what" rather than "who" so yes and no

[@darealslimshady702]

the reprise of bells at the end uses ‘what makes a monster and what make a man’ the intro to the movie is clopin telling a story to some kids, so he uses that ‘who is’ as some suspense for the story, coming full circle at the end to show the *real* message

[@majorknight859]

In both musicals "Who is the..." was used in the opening Bells of Notre Dame "What makes...." was used in the final song/reprise of Bells of Notre Dame

[@falkofscrum]

In Hugo's original book, Frollo is a good caring guy. It's not until Esmeralda arrives that he BEGINS to turn evil, and then is completely evil in the third act Edit: Thanks for the likes, guys :D

[@elf-lordsfriarofthemeadowl2039]

Lust and untamed obsession can lead a man to madness.

[@DemBigOlEyes]

@Krista Star Did you even read the books omg.

[@violets.1810]

@Krista Star No, he actually was a good human being in the book before Esmeralda popped up, but his delusions and lust drove him mad. It's not Esmeralda's fault, obviously, but it's what happened.

[@na.thalie.m]

While this is not WRONG it also def isn't RIGHT. He didn't become evil, he always was. He just acted on it because his racism and classism (and also sexism) gave him an excuse to act on his dark desires and disgusting fetishes.

[@DemBigOlEyes]

@@na.thalie.m Nope. Book clearly states that he was a pious man who adopted and raised Quasimodo out of pity, even taking the brunt of the townspeople who viewed him as a freak for taking in such a monstrosity as his son. Book also clearly notes how he slowly fell into his irrational and "evil" state only after he met Esmerelda and became lustful and jealous of Phoebus and later Quasimodo.

[@arieltallen5732]

Heaven's light vs Hell fire. I love that they literallyade their songs opposites to show the effect she had on them, showing their true intentions.

[@crischiva1936]

If you think about it, both songs speacknabout "love" and the need of affection, but in complete oposite ways

[@doctorwholover1012]

I love how it shows how two extremely different people can see a person and perceive them in entirely different ways based on their morals/upbringing/beliefs, like, even as Quasimodo was raised by Frollo with Frollo's ideals + teachings, he wasn't a carbon copy of him and had his own views +values.

[@killertofu9188]

"Who is the monster and who is the man?"

[@orangeslash1667]

@@doctorwholover1012 Fun Fact: Disney confirmed that movies Frollo is based on Amon Goeth from Schindler's list!!!!

[@kimberly.z]

@@doctorwholover1012 nature vs nurture! (cough, *megamind*, cough)

[@jess15082]

I like how Frollos character in the musical offers an explanation for Quasimodo’s personality. One small thing that always irked me in the movie was how nice and kind and normal Quasimodo acted. Being raised by frollo who was neglectful and manipulative at best as well as being in constant isolation should have absolutely fudged him up. He shouldn’t have been able to hold a conversation, much less be a functioning member of society. With frollo actually being somewhat ‘nice’ in the musical, it makes a lot more sense in that regard.

[@monsterhanna6691]

Because it shows that he didn't see Frollo as a villain since he "saved" him, never really knew his mother who actually saved him, and just because you grow up in a toxic household--or Quasi's case, technically growing up in a toxic household--doesn't automatically mean that you'll turn out exactly the same way.

[@crypt5129]

@@monsterhanna6691 I mean, technically, but it's definitely more likely

[@orangeslash1667]

@@monsterhanna6691 Fun Fact: Disney confirmed that movies Frollo is based on Amon Goeth from Schindler's list!!!!

[@thatguy3968]

@@orangeslash1667 Göth

[@orangeslash1667]

@@thatguy3968 yes

[@FletcherReedsRandomness]

Here's my stance: Disney Frollo is a better villain, but Novel/Play Frollo is a better character.

[@lianulbrich9995]

Big mood

[@alyzz9863]

By "play" you mean the one based on novel, or the one based on Disney film?

[@bigounce4968]

@@alyzz9863 He means the one in the play, the whole point of the video 😂

[@alyzz9863]

@@bigounce4968 y'know, people in comments section are talking about both Notre Dame de Paris and Hunchbag of Notre Dame, so I couldn't be so sure.

[@Mars-dw2zc]

novel > play > movie imo. play’s pretty good but he has half the complexity he does in the book

[@FalaFrances]

I've asked this once I'll ask it twice I'll keep asking untill you notice me PLEASE REVIEW THE EMPEROR'S NEW GROOVE MAN

[@mmminko5663]

I second this. Emperor's New Groove was one of my favorites

[@sambarham8887]

I third this

[@redmoon383]

Going to fourth this one so hard

[@leobelmont8435]

AND ME MAKES TEN I think

[@ArcturusOTE]

@@leobelmont8435 And me eleven!

[@matti.8465]

"Abusive father figure who shows concern for his son but more for his reputation" That just sounds like Buck from Chicken Little.

[@thesupervideogamenerdmore3171]

*A year later* "Don't worry, they'll get over it..."

[@davidclout6286]

“That was his mistake!”

[@luigivercotti6410]

Also Leopold from Amadeus, possibly?

[@thestanman1486]

Buck Mccluck likes to fuck

[@snakeaddict2810]

Just proves there's a good way to do it, and a _very bad way_ to do it.

[@The_Jho]

Fun fact, they changed the golden rule in school, it’s now “treat others how they want to be treated” probably due to the jokes of “what if we want to be treated poorly?”

[@noattendance9801]

My school seems to be behind on that

[@snappishtemperament213]

School in general never really believed in that rule, either version. If any school I ever went to said it more than once ever or actually tried to hammer it into us at any point, the hypocrisy of it all would blind the staff.

[@allurajane4979]

that's stupid. what if THEY want to be treated badly

[@TurquoiseIcy]

Such a weak argument, people who treat people badly won't care if they want it or not. Thank God I am out of the education system.

[@MrJoeyWheeler]

So if people want to be treated like a king we should do so? That's actually worse.

[@nyssarc146]

And honestly, frollos death in the play was iconic. Frollo: you don’t want to hurt me... All the gargoyles in unison: _yes you do_ Chills every time

[@bymeerabrowngothicroyal]

Nyssa R C it shows what a lifetime of abuse can do to people and also “I told you master I am very strong.”

[@demilad225]

And then comes the most chilling rendition of the main theme of the musical. It got to me without fail every time.

[@dogfur7808]

wait what does that mean

[@BowserTheSecond]

DAAAAAMNAAAAATIOOOOOON!

[@MsDannyNicole]

Okay but the lead up! shivered at “and the WICKED shall not GO UNPUNISHED” made me gasp

[@pumpkinomom4446]

The choir was actually one of the main reasons why the show didn't make it to Broadway, because it cost too much money to pay so many actors and the creators didn't want to cut the choir out... So sad

[@JK8]

It would make no sense without the choir lol

[@springfaux6991]

The crowd will be the choir then

[@darkstrifequeen1458]

Except having been in the choir from the musical myself, we were kind of the narrators just giving a bit more atmosphere to the musical itself.