Science Fiction: Maybe Your Expectations Are The Problem /Speculative Fiction? ....

In his second Nightfall Dairy Vlog entry, Steve talks about our expectations of Science Fiction, how they begin based on what we've seen on screens and also discusses why he doesn't use the term Speculative Fiction for SF- and of course shows you some newly acquired books (as usual)
#sciencefiction #bookrecommendations #booktube #sf #sciencefictionbooks #bookcollecting #fantasybooks

[@giu_lia0]

I think that plausibility is a concept that can be very helpful to dismantle one's expectations of what sci-fi literature is, but, at the same time, is also a wonderful tool to discard what for me is "bad" sci-fi (of course, this is very subjective). Cognitive estrangement is for sure a core element of sci-fi literature, but it is not enough: I need the author to still do a good job of constructing a world that, while cognitively estranging, is still plausible according to the inner logic/framework of that world. And the lack of plausibility is, in my opinion, one of the worst weaknesses of nowadays sci-fi, which makes it, for the most part, rubbish. By the way, I found your channel just recently, but it quickly became a favourite of mine; I'll probably spend my Winter Holidays deep diving into your very insightful content!

[@outlawbookselleroriginal]

I don't think incredibly detailed worldbuilding is essential, but unless the writer is working deconstructively- as M John Harrison does to great effect- a certain level of internal consistency is essential, yes. Glad you're enjoying the chennal.

[@leakybootpress9699]

Hello, Smudge, and hello to your serf too, I hope he's behaving himself, if not, you know what to do. Please tell your serf that he's wrong to say that our first encounter with SF was via a screen. For me, and many others of a certain age in the UK, it was via a radio serial called "Journey Into Space". Your serf may be interested to know that during my stints working in a secondhand bookshop people used to come in and say things like: "I'm looking for something to read, I'm bored by crime fiction now." I'd reply: "Have you tried science fiction?" "Oh no, I don't like sci-fi." "What have you read?" "I haven't read any, but I know I wouldn't like it." "What are you interested in?" "Well, I love history and archaeology." I rummaged on the paperback shelves and found the copy of "Bring the Jubilee" I'd known was there. "Here's a very good novel in which history takes a different course, the Southern States win the American civil war." "Ooh, that sounds interesting, but it says science fiction on the cover." "Science fiction isn't only about spaceships and robots you know." I'm sure, Smudge, that your serf has had similar experiences.

[@outlawbookselleroriginal]

"He has actually...or so he claims. Personally, I think he talks a load of guff and his only real value is refilling my chow bowls..."

[@erikpaterson1404]

I reckon I'm almost 99 percent all caught up on the backlist now... I think many, if not all, (imo) of the videos are worth a second and third look. First time round the info doesn't always sink in all the way you know. Really good stuff, guys!

[@outlawbookselleroriginal]

You're a star - I really wish more people would watch the lot- obviously I can tell by the view numbers which ones have not been watched much- like my latest, for example. I guess people prefer yet another book haul to stunning visuals and a voiceover that took hours to edit into the video....

[@erikpaterson1404]

@outlawbookselleroriginal cheers! Ah, we can't have book hauls all the time. I reckon your most loyal subs may even settle for recommendation and review pieces and the walkabout. I'd love to hear more on Paul Auster.. 😉 almost finished The NY Trilogy. Discovered PA thanks to your channel. What beautiful literature.

[@RodneyAllanPoe]

I think you've nailed it with SF as art (literature) vs SF as craft. PKD saying "It's not science fiction because..." is an interesting discussion point, but it's too narrow to be practical. It implies that HYPERION and REVELATION SPACE are not SF, or have I missed something? Art vs craft is a useful device that works right across all media, although consensus and time are needed.

[@outlawbookselleroriginal]

Dick's assertion I agree with in principle, as the 'Novum' employed in Space Opera is tired and creaky, but it wouldn't be what it is without the Novum it uses: it's just a diluted one. There is an argument that 'Space Fantasy' on this Dickian basis is 'not SF', but as far as I'm concerned, it's not Fantasy, which is clearly pre-Englightenment anachronism: magic, superstition, religion. Fantasy comes before Realism historically, then comes SF, which is why I feel SF and Fantasy are not that closely related at all. The Art/Craft distinction is key, as technical ability can, in many cases, be acquired through practice, while Art is the inspiration that is a rare thing.

[@sciencefictionreads]

I discovered i liked SF from seeing things on screen but at the same time always found movies and tv to be lacking. Discovering SF novels was like an epiphany for me lol.

[@outlawbookselleroriginal]

Yeah, same here. Although there are SF films and shows I saw -even as a kid- that I liked, books just took my head off by comparison. Liked your latest vid, by the way, very enjoyable!

[@ericchristen2623]

Yep, the movies always depict futuristic or advanced beings as today's simple minded predictable actors...

[@Joe-lb8qn]

Preface added after writing. Sorry for the rant. But i feel better now ! Allow me to start off with the books you said don't mention, Long Way etc was a DNF for me, utterly dull, and dont get me started on Murderbot, whats all the fuss about? I did finish the first one but had zero interest following up. And since i am talking whats all the fuss about, and dull, OMG A Memory Called Empire, tedium bottled. How did that win awards? (And a long way). Perhaps im an outlier but i grew up on books first or at least alongside tv*, the first SF novel i know for sure i read was Hothouse, which my mum got out of the library for me when i was about nine or ten (because it was in the adult section and i had a child ticket). Im sure she didnt know what was in it or she wouldnt have got it out for me 😂 * i am old enough to remember watching first episode of dr who though, and of course all the gerry andersen stuff. But I was reading alongside those all the classic 50's and 60's "golden age" novels which in retrospect i think my local library must have had a good stock of.

[@outlawbookselleroriginal]

I think anyone who has read the best SF published between 1950 and 1990 struggles to find anything good to say about 95% of currently published SF. A lot of the youngest generation of fans has not had the time to read much/anything from that key period and have come into SF from YA and screenbased SF, so have a low bar. I agree Murderbot is just more of the same after the first one. I'd say you're not an outlier based on what I'd guess your age is, but then to be an outlier as an SF reader means you're the most authentic type of SF reader, as the norm isn't as ready to be challenged by unusual paradigm shifts. Incidentally, 'Golden Age' is strictly 1939 to end of the forties, but I know what you're saying.

[@unstopitable]

The first PKD I read was A Scanner, Darkly. I had no idea what I was reading, I just absolutely loved it. From the first paragraph I was hooked. The next was The Man in the High Castle. (I was in my early teens.) The funny thing was, I didn't really consider what I reading as "SF" b/c it was so unlike all the SF movies I watched. I mean, it was called "SF," but I truly felt as if I'd discovered some secret genre. It was more like the Cortázar and Borges I had discovered, but it did take place in the future. And then I finally got around to seeing Blade Runner, and then I read the novel, and I was confused, because I did like both, but they weren't the same. It was Deckard's wanting a pet--a real pet--and the "chickenhead" animal repair guy, his plight, that emotionally connected with me, as well as identifying with the "andys," who, though they couldn't feel emotions like a human, could still feel pain, and yet they were hunted. I could blabber on, PKD opened up a whole new way of seeing the world, just like when I read "Axolotl" or "El sur." In fact, The Man in the High Castle threw me for the same kind of loop. Nowadays, metafiction is its own cliche almost. But back then, it blew my still-forming mind. But what I found in PKD was a writer who wrote from the POV of the average guy, a working stiff, not some air-brushed swashbuckler with a "light sword." His characters lived lives of quiet desperation. Deckard's just trying to make ends meet and buy himself a real animal. And then I discovered JG Ballard, and my mind was more blown than when I'd first picked up Kafka. Ballard was like a religious experience. Anyway, I've got a diarrhea of the keyboard. Sorry.

[@outlawbookselleroriginal]

Well, you've underlined exactly what I said about 'expectations based on visual media- screens and art'. Remember, the written word came first and the visual arts were created out of storytelling, so written SF takes precedence. I read PKD around the same time as I read Clarke and Heinlein - I could see that all were SF, but PKD was an Artist, with maturity and an ability to step beyond the confines of the Golden Age, although he grew up reading it while it was new. Good post!

[@SamManso]

Another interesting Video Steve. They're all interesting but the last two are revving up the conversation. Born in Lebanon in 1964, we only had 3 TV channels (one of which was in French - huzzah colonialism). They broadcasted between 6 pm and midnight. And the reception sucked. So my first SF encounter was an Arabic Translation of Erich von Daniken's Chariots of the Gods. A lot of the ancient sites Erich discussed were in my backyard and we were taught about all this ancient history (the real stuff, that is) in school. So I looked at his book as more fiction than real world stuff. I remember feeling a great sense of wonder about Aliens coming to Earth. Having a dad that taught Philosophy and Arabic Literature helped and he soon introduced me to Asimov and Clarke and later on Lovecraft, Ashton Smith, Poe and others - some in Arabic translation but most in English (fortunately, we were taught English from Kindergarten on in my school as an FU to France) and then Star Trek made it to our TV and the rest was Great, Great Expectations. Having lived through that damned Civil War, bouncing around Europe for a year with my mom and sister waiting for a Visa (a strange kind of homelessness), immigrating to Canada and experiencing blizzards and racism (great combo - Ballard's disaster Trilogy is understated in comparison), and now seeing the rise of neo-fascism across the world...Yeah. I had expectations, I have expectations and demand better from SF. I'll even wait in a Hechee Fan. I know SF writers can do better because they have done better. I am confident that a resurgence will emerge eventually. Revolutionary Patience is one of my mottos.

[@outlawbookselleroriginal]

Fascinating post, thank you very much. I was born in 63 so know the phenomenon of only 3 TV stations until the early 1980s. I also read Erich Von as a kid. I hope more of my viewers read your post, which is beautifully and eloquently put.

[@GypsyRoSesx]

@@outlawbookselleroriginal I read all the comments always as they are a useful and interesting source of information. I agree that this comment is particularly interesting and insightful and I’m pleased whenever anyone mentions several literary figures in one statement especially if they mention Poe (or others authors I really admire). P.S. I enjoyed this video as always. Hi Sam 👋

[@SamManso]

@@GypsyRoSesx Hi gypsyroses. I'm just re-reading The Fall of the House of Usher before I watch the recent TV adaptation. I hope they did a good job. Otherwise it's back to Vincent Price.

[@outlawbookselleroriginal]

@@GypsyRoSesx Thanks Rose, yes, I greatly enjoyed reading this comment- I read all of them and tend to reply to most, but this one was particularly interesting I thought

[@GypsyRoSesx]

@@SamMansohope it’s good! Worst case scenario you get to read Poe again, which is not a bad thing at all!

[@vintagesf]

I definitely fall into the trap of bringing expectations to reading SF. Some of those expectations came from screens. I had an expectation of structure, especially resolution. Couldn’t stand ambiguity. As I experienced more life and literature I have grown to understand that conclusions are often too narrow and neat. Life is messy and ambiguous. A shared respect among a dissonance of thought is often the best one can hope for. My reading through the Ace Science Fiction Specials has brought me face to face with novels and authors I would never have chosen to read in the past. D.G. Compton has been a revelation for me. Tomorrow I have a review of The Silent Multitudes, a book you reviewed recently. I loved it because I didn’t hold it to preconceived expectations. That said, I still have some personal preferences or should I say personal dislikes. But even with a dislike, for example satirical humour, I can appreciate a well written book. Thank you Stephen for helping me expand my SF experience. Perhaps someday I’ll learn to appreciate Malzberg. 😏

[@outlawbookselleroriginal]

I'm glad you enjoyed 'Silent Multitude', one of my fave DGC novels, great book. Coming from a tradition of British Literary Fiction culture that precedes the advent of Genre SF (magazine spawned SF), I read Conan Doyle, Wells and Wyndham before any Genre writers: so I read writers who stood outside pulp markets (or in Wyndham's case, were unhappy about them). We all have 'screen expectations' as I say, but when you think about what SF does to your way of thinking, it should be anything but formulaic to really be great SF. I think you will go back to authors like Malzberg and Roberts in future and find new vistas. I'm thoroughly enjoying the discipline with which you are tackling the ace series, great work!

[@rickkearn7100]

Many SF readers come from technical disciplines in their professional lives and as such expect some verisimilitude in their SF, and the "nuts and bolts" as you put it, is what lends that to a story. That said, one could construct an entire college semester on general fiction literature with an emphasis on SF, from this 30 minute post. Extraordinary density in this one, OB! Great stuff and, thanks for keeping at it. Cheers!

[@outlawbookselleroriginal]

Rick, you never fail to make me feel good about what I'm doing. Thanks as ever, Dean of Men.

[@kufujitsu]

You're right. I try to absorb everything an S.F. novel reveals - as opposed to hoping it meets my expectations - as I found it more enjoyable to read it that way - if I know it's about the far future, aliens, cyberpunk, other planets, robots, space opera, or whatever, I'll stop reading the blurb on the back of the book to avoid spoilers, & give it a try - the last S.F. novel that I read & liked was "On", by Adam Roberts - before I bought it, I read half the blurb on the back, found that it intrigued me, then made up my mind to give it a try - it reminded me of Brian Aldiss a little bit, & left me wanting to seek out more of his work - which is surprising to me because I normally don't like contemporary S.F. novels. Also, I learned early on not to go into reading a short S.F. story with any pre-conceived ideas about what it'll be, which is why I avoid the intros to each short story in an S.F. anthology - but I'll read the intro after I finished reading the story - if I feel the inclination.....

[@outlawbookselleroriginal]

'On' is good and I can see where you're coming from with the Aldiss comparison. Similar books are 'Dark Universe' by Daniel F Galouye, 'Dark Eden' by Chris Beckett, 'The Ultimate Jungle' by Michael Coney- and in a way - 'Farewell Horizontal' by K W Jeter. I am a big fan of Roberts.

[@chucklitka2503]

I do remember watching the old Flash Gordon serials on a B& W TV, but growing up in the 60's, the future was now back then, and new. I think it was the Tom Swift books that opened the door to SF for me.

[@wburris2007]

I was reading books for a long time before I had seen a sf TV show or movie. I discovered sf in the school library in about 1970, and we got a used BW TV on the farm in about 73. The only sf on the 3 channels we could receive, was Star Trek reruns, and this was on the channel with very poor reception, in the afternoon when the screen wasn't bright enough to see. I still spend way more time reading than watching TV.

[@outlawbookselleroriginal]

You are a rare example of 'page first'! Great!

[@thekeywitness]

My expectation is that great SF will blow my mind with incredible concepts. Unfortunately, too many incredible concepts are let down by a lack of foresight about the more mundane aspects of the future (e.g., characters using old-fashioned technologies, such as typewriters and landlines, in the future) or a plot that meanders so much that I forget what the core concept is about. Too often while I'm reading an SF book with an intriguing concept I find myself thinking "I should rewrite this for the modern reader," but I have a day job and my own novel in the works. There aren't enough hours in the day!

[@outlawbookselleroriginal]

That's my expectation too. I understand the 'lack of foresight' comment, but that's a very easy observation to make in hindsight, let's be honest: if you could actually predict what future tech will be like in 50 years, write an SF novel and find it's all come true, you'd be in a very, very tiny minority- even harder is working out the social implications. This is actually easier now, as the more tech evolves, the easier it becomes to predict the science of the future- this was much, much harder 50, 75 or 100 years ago. Plus as I've said, the 'Modern' reader is not Modern (that's an historic cultural period) but Postmodern or Contemporary. Ultimately, what is now clearly antiquated tech in SF novels doesn't matter that much, as great SF is metaphoric and really about what was happening when the story/book was written- I discuss this in a video coming up next week, which arose out of a conversation with two young pro SF writers I know.

[@stephenzeoli8117]

Love Smudge!

[@outlawbookselleroriginal]

She's the hottest. The Tom Cats go crazy for her, but she's aloof.

[@personal-qs6dz]

I hope I shall arrive soon is probably my favourite story from P. Dick, it's really great

[@outlawbookselleroriginal]

Years since I read it, but I remember loving the book overall.

[@alanbaker3442]

Another fascinating video. Have you read Masque of a Savage Mandarin by Philip Bedford Robinson? First published in 1969, and reissued in a splendid Panther SF paperback in 1974. Very strange indeed, and quite wonderful; a bizarre and unsettling fusion, it seems to me, of New Wave SF and horror. Can't wait for the next Ballard video!

[@outlawbookselleroriginal]

Never read the Robinson, but always loved the title, I must pick a copy up sometime. It stayed in print for years but was always really hard to sell I remember- it went OP late 1980s.

[@salty-walt]

Thanks for mentioning the bit about tropes! (Drives me up a wall!) They especially can't seem to separate tropes from motifs and cliches. The Horror.

[@outlawbookselleroriginal]

I start foaming at the mouth when someone who doesn't know what a trope is starts mouthing off about them....

[@danieljette8007]

We all began with the screens. So true. I still have fond memories of Space 1999 and Lost in Space even if now it's hard for me to watch a whole episode. On the other hand, I still have fun watching Ultraman.

[@outlawbookselleroriginal]

True- I can still watch 'UFO' and 'Captain Scarlet', but for the real meat I watch Cronenberg, 'Solaris' and 'The Men Who Fell To Earth' (original film versions)

[@tragicslip]

When i first read the epic of Gilgamesh i wondered why so much time (in other stories) was spent retelling flood, mortality tales. then i started paying attention to how different cultures added to and edited the oldest known text and started to understand our literature is a reflection of the times. the end of an age might be marked by derivative works and nostalgic preludes. hopefully the nostalgia is a prelude to something better (than a return). on science fiction more specifically: we might not recognize it anymore as we're saddled with expectation. cheers!

[@outlawbookselleroriginal]

Exactly- this is why I always go on about why there are three genres that arose out of Story; Fantasy, then Realism and then SF. 'Gilgamesh' does have hints of SF- the flying machines and Enkidu and the immortality quest, but it is of course a taproot text from the days of superstition, ,magic and realism, when people saw no difference between the imagined and the Real.

[@expressoric]

I've said before that I discovered science fiction through tv, but my way into the books, was through comics, mostly Marvels, which were iconoclastic. They gave me expectations of what they would be like and exceeded them. Perhaps speculative [fiction] is the wrong word. When I say or write SF, I mean either science or speculative fiction. I don't think of it as a generic category, simply because it isn't a genre. It's science fiction, but contains elements of other genres, is often experimental, and is literary in the same way as general fiction is. It goes beyond mere definition. What would be a better word for it? I think it's necessary to consolidate the science fiction that we have, not let it come to a dead end just because very little that's new is being done. As you say, modern science fiction often becomes old quickly, but more classic science fiction doesn't age.

[@outlawbookselleroriginal]

Marvel was immensely important for me too- Stan Lee and Roy Thomas put a love of words in me before anyone else. I'm a total Silver Age nerd. One of the reasons why I say 'SF'- aside from it being what professionals long called it- is that it can suggest a number of things: Science Fiction, Speculative Fiction, Structural Fabultion, Science Fantasy - but there is no real distinction between Science Fiction and Speculative Fiction: Genre SF means 'out of the magazines that first dubbed it as Science Fiction and sold it under that labe;l' and as I say, Heinlein coined it- there was literary experimentation in SF as far back as Bester and Kuttner, there is no need for the idea that Genre SF cannot borrow from literary fiction - it did this extensively in the New Wave period 55 years ago. Until we affirm that Genre SF can be literature, we're not helping the important books abd authors gain the respect they are due- the snobbery of the mainstream is why people like Attwood prefer calling it 'Speculative Fiction'. They want to see the screen/page inteface continue to influence people by keeping Genre SF out of literature. This has to change...

[@expressoric]

Yes, Stan Lee, and Roy Thomas, were excellent writers, but both of them worked in collaboration with their artists, with whom they co-plotted the stories, particularly Lee, who owed much of the creation of the characters and the actual plotting to Jack Kirby, who had a very creative imagination as well as being an artist with a very powerful style. The trouble is, that Lee took much of the credit for doing more than he really did, which should have gone to Kirby, and there's a lot of very hot controversy about this. Lee was a much better writer than Kirby, and he should be recognised for his talents, but it's a shame if he's besmirched his reputation because he wasn't being honest about his involvement in it all. Science fiction can be literature, Mary Shelley and later H.G. Wells wrote it before it was a genre, and later still, Olaf Stapledon was writing it within the literary realm alongside the pulp magazines. I just think that some science fiction contains copious elements of fantasy and Gothic horror, and isn't easy to always define as science fiction, but it needs a different name to speculative [fiction].

[@davidbooks.and.comics]

I know where you are going with your thoughts on science fiction versus speculative fiction...you are wise to take serious those sf writers like PKD, Gene Wolfe, James Blish to name very few who were aware of the potentials of science as a way to understand the world, humankind's relationship to the world but in the end, as you say in your this presentation, it is a "wise thing" to listen to our elders. I would keep an open mind about what science is epistemologically as PKD did, as Wolfe did etc...

[@outlawbookselleroriginal]

These are words to live by!

[@danieldelvalle5004]

I discovered SF through comics mostly, and the cheesey SF movies of the 50s. There was a comic book series, Classics Illustrated, which was a gateway to world, mainstream literature. That's where I first encountered H. G. Wells. This led me to search out the actual books. So the first SF book that I read was The Time Machine.

[@outlawbookselleroriginal]

I had an experience like this with Verne, as I was a big comics and 'abridged retellings' reader too.

[@horsemouthhelliwell7178]

bridge on the drina rocks

[@thehound9638]

I brought "Fall of Chronopolis" recently, but it's gone missing in the post or something. What's worse that it can't be replaced because it was second hand and there was only one! I hate the Royal Mail! I have brought a dystopian book from an author who many might not have heard of. I heard about it in a chat and it's supposedly a little controversial, but I haven't read it yet. It's called "From the land all the good things came" by S.B.Saunders.

[@outlawbookselleroriginal]

Controversial is relative, but the loss of a BJB in the post is high tragedy- keep looking, another will show up. He's the greatest!

[@FIT2BREAD]

Just starting the video. Interesting topic. Tho u are accross the pond...happy Thanksgiving nonetheless!

[@outlawbookselleroriginal]

Thanks Mike - we tend to get confused by Thanksgiving over here, most of us have no idea what it is - I first read of it in a novel in my early teens, so I looked it up...you have a good one!

[@jbrichardson8891]

more ramblings to come I hope

[@outlawbookselleroriginal]

Don't sweat it, we'll get it back to you.

[@michaeldaly1495]

Great vid - I find very little to disagree with in any of your videos. WOndering if you have read 'City of Bohane' by Kevin Barry - an excellent 21st century SF book, I think. it wasn't marketed as SF of course...

[@outlawbookselleroriginal]

Know the book you mean, have looked it over a few times...I may add it to the list now. Great to hear from you Michael, as always!

[@michaeldaly1495]

@@outlawbookselleroriginal Cheers Stephen. I wish I had more time to watch all your videos as they come out but my very young daughter requires more attention right now. Love it when I do see them though - always thought provoking and educational. You have helped me renew my love of reading and 2023 has been a brilliant year in that regard and largely thanks to you. Current read - Mark Fisher 'Ghosts of my Life' - loving it.

[@outlawbookselleroriginal]

@@michaeldaly1495 Fisher is sometimes a bit like the Ian Curtis of literature, a bit of antihero worship martyrdom, but at his best, you can't knock him. That's a good book. Shame he gave up the fight, sad.

[@ericchristen2623]

Cats are great

[@Bibliopolitan]

I hope you'll let us know what you think of the Andric when you've read it, even though it's not SF, as I have that self same edition lurking in my tbr.

[@outlawbookselleroriginal]

Will do!

[@joebrooks4448]

Hey Steven, you look to be feeling well! Thanksgiving here in the North American colonies! But, I have time to make a comment. Something has been changing in SF, seemingly over the last few months. I am being inundated with advertisements for newly written hard SF novels on Facebook and other venues. I assume I am getting these due to my activities promoting Golden Age type SF. At least 20 in the last month. Seems to be mostly military settings. I will read an interesting looking one and report.

[@outlawbookselleroriginal]

I'm looking better than I'm feeling, sadly, but thanks. I'm getting mildly bombarded too, but to no avail, I do my non-trad literary SF stuff instead, be true to your skool etc.

[@joebrooks4448]

@outlawbookselleroriginal I hope you feel better soon! You are still just a kid, I have 9 years on you! Just had my butt kicked by eye surgery, but it worked! I can read like a champ again.

[@paulmonahawk4921]

I always found it confusing and a bit irritating that some of the best SF Crash, 1984, Brave New World, Clockwork Orange, Slaughter House Five, is never to be found in any SF section of any book shops why is that? Is it just snobbery?

[@outlawbookselleroriginal]

...because they are not packaged and marketed as Genre SF, as (apart from 'Crash') they weren't authored by writers who came out of the magazine tradition/school- that's what I mean by 'Genre SF'. Orwell, Burgess, Huxley were never published in genre magazines with 'Science Fiction' on the cover. Vonnegut was, but realised he had to get out quickly or be forever ghettoized. In every bookshop I've ever worked in -14 in total - I've always stocked copies of these books in SFF sections.

[@paulmonahawk4921]

Makes sense

[@AlienBigCat23]

How about Cerebral SF or Neuro SF as terms to denote stuff like Ballard or PKD?

[@outlawbookselleroriginal]

It's an idea, but do we really need more ill-defined subgenre terminology? I tend to call it Literary SF, as it's usually the case that those kind of authors have literary skills beyond the Hard SF/Space Oepra guys, though there are notable exceptions. Just being devil's advocate here. I was at a Convention a few years back and on one panel, a few authors kept defining books by tiny subgenres which was more than a little irksome, a classic example of what M John Harrison called 'the clodhopping feet of nerdism'. Not thinking of you in that way, you understand :-)

[@RominaJones]

I see speculative fiction as an umbrella term for non-realist fiction, i.e. SF, fantasy, horror. I am working on a blog that covers those types of stories and can’t think of a better term. I won’t use a term defined by a negative, i.e non-realist stories. I don’t know what other clear umbrella term to use to encompass those genres. It has to be a term that is clear and understood by the mainstream as well.

[@outlawbookselleroriginal]

No, that doesn't wash: you need to look at how genres emerged historically- watch my Elements of Science Fiction series for detail. There are only 3 genres: Fantasy, Realism and SF - and they emerged in that order, springing out of Story, which bore them all. Horror is not a Genre, but a Bricolage- there are videos here on this too - think about it, Horror can be supernatural (Fantasy), technological (SF) or it could actually happen ('Psycho' is an example) so it's Crime fiction, which is a subgenre of Realism. SF and Realism have more in common with each other than SF and Fantasy, as SF emerges in the Age of Reason, which Fantasy is about anachronism - magic, religion, superstition- which are negated by scientific method. You're thinking this way because of the way books and films have been marketed: 'The Fantastic' is more accurate as an umbrella than 'Speculative Fiction' which specifically refers to SF (note the same initials). Also, why does there need to be an umbrella? It's the distinctions between SF, Fantasy and Realism that make them what they are, not the similarities.

[@RominaJones]

@@outlawbookselleroriginal I understand what you're saying, and in a conversation in a bookstore that would totally work but for a podcast and blog I need a one sentence tagline. I need the "elevator pitch." It doesn't work for me to pitch the subject of the blog in a paragraph regarding semantics. I have to speak the language of the audience I court. I appreciate what you have written and will take it under advisement. I have been wrestling with the terminology trying to find the concise word to two words that can sum it up.

[@outlawbookselleroriginal]

@@RominaJones Well, I understand the 'tagline' thing (I wrestle with this here all the time), but I think it's important to be specific in use of words: one of the big problems culture- and SF is a classic example of this -faces these days is inexact and confusing usage of already established terms and the creation of neologisms that are unnecessary and only muddy the water: in this case, the umbrella term you are looking for is 'The Fantastic', as that's what historians, critics and academics working with SFF have called the two combined for many decades. Horror though, remains the sore thumb, since the source of Horror in a book or film can be -as I've said- supernatural, technological or actual- it's a venn diagram bricolage. Best of luck with your podcast.

[@RominaJones]

@@outlawbookselleroriginal I appreciate you taking the time to clarify. All I can say is if you type in "speculative fiction" in your online search bar, check out the definitions that are given from not only from wikipedia but current day universities, dictionaries and publishing houses. Anyway, I relate to your disdain for certain words driven by marketing. Don't get me started on a term like "graphic audio." I will certainly think over all the definitions I have been given. I really enjoy your channel, and I think you posses a level of sophistication around literature that is hard to find online these days.

[@outlawbookselleroriginal]

@@RominaJones Now that's the problem with using the internet in that way: go to the Encyclopedia of Science Fiction (first two editions a book, current edition a website)- there are lots of sources, but you have to question how authoritative they are- Clute/Nichols and the other editors of the SFE have been studying SF for DECADES, long before the term 'Sepculative Fiction' was used by publishers or at colleges. Finding the most reliable sources of reference is key as the authority of the internet is questionable: much of it is just plain incorrect.

[@luiznogueira1579]

What about UFOs? Are UFOs SF? Just wondering...

[@outlawbookselleroriginal]

Well, if a UFO is used in a work of Fiction and the explanation used by the writer in exposition in the text suggests a scientific explanation for their existence in that fictional world, then yes, they are an SF trope, as so far there is no confirmation/consensus that they exist, which makes them a Novum ('new thing'). Obviously in the real world, the jury is out on their existence. UFOs used to be a taboo subject in written SF, as fans and writers generally wanted to disassociate themselves from Ufology, but that changed in the late 1960s when J G Ballard wrote "The Venus Hunters" and in the 1970s Ian Watson's novel 'MiracleVisitors' tackled the subject. My own story "Saucer Occupant" (from 'Deep Ends 2019') tackles this subject.

[@luiznogueira1579]

​​@@outlawbookselleroriginalWell, seems like everything boils down to JG Ballard with you, huh? Funny, when I was reading SF in the 70's and 80's UFO's were still pretty much taboo. I think the only story where they appear in some form was Clarke's Childhood's End(oh, yeah! Silly space adventure, right? Not really SF, apparently...) Anyway, I'll venture that UFO's are more related to the Paranormal (which has some weird resonance with SF, admittedly) and Conspiracy theory(which is utter garbage). So, still, in essence, a fringe subject, despite recent developments(which can potentially change everything, but yet to be seen).

[@AlienBigCat23]

Hahaha.. don't presume I'm not a nerd - misrepresenting me could upset the SJWs.. You're right but it looks like the subject's too vast now to reduce it down with labels - but time is cyclical, so.. & efforts to guide folk in the right directions are much appreciated (I didn't know the term Space Opera until recently!)

[@stevethe3060]

Cat keeping you awake ? Try reading the cat a science fiction book like Mort[E] by Robert Repino .

[@pillsareyummy]

Psychology has gone far beyond Freud or Jung. It has become a hard science, based in biochemistry and neuroscience.

[@outlawbookselleroriginal]

I think you mean Jung.

[@pillsareyummy]

@@outlawbookselleroriginalThat may have been my spell checker, perhaps it doesn't approve of Psychoanalysis. Grammatical errors aside, Psychology has become a hard science. If you want to read a Sci-Fi book which discusses the nature of consciousness (based on recent studies in neuroscience) in both us and aliens, read Blindsight by Peter Watts. Granted, his writing style can be difficult to get through, however the ideas he discusses are fascinating. One of a handful of Sci-Fi novels where the aliens are truly alien.

[@outlawbookselleroriginal]

@@pillsareyummy I've read 'Blindsight', years ago and its sequel 'Echopraxia' - both of them twice, in fact. Neuroscience is a science yes- and had been applied to Psychology- but there are different schools of the latter and various theories from its early days remain in use and I still consider them questionable. I'll counter-recommend you some of Colin WIlson's books that relate to psychology, notably SF novel 'The Philosopher's Stone' and his 'Introduction oto the New Existentialism'.

[@pillsareyummy]

@@outlawbookselleroriginal Psychology, like most disciplines, is multidisciplinary. I only studied Freud in my first year, it was more of an introduction to the science and its history. Freud's insight into conscious experience being the 'tip of the iceberg', was revolutionary, backed up by all (modern) data. For that he was brilliant, however, many of his other arguments were nonsense. Watts's book (Blindsight) discusses one of the most fascinating things discovered about consciousness: like free will, it appears to be an illusion, a simulation based on certain neural activity. I commend you on your stamina regarding your re-reading of Watts. His writing style, to me, was needlessly convoluted. Brilliant work, difficult to read. I have nothing against complexity regarding science or technology as it relates to the story, however, Watts could write about making a pizza and I'd have a difficult time following him. Contrast him with someone like Alastair Reynolds, who writes technical when dealing with scientific/technical issues, however his prose is always lucid. I feel we are living in the pages of some dystopian Sci-FI novel regarding the rise of the WOKE movement. We're living in a time of emotional reasoning, an age of unreason. Thanks for the recommendations. I had been reading science based books for years, transitioning into biographies, then horror. A few years ago I got the craving for some good Hard Science Fiction, so I started reading that genera. So far I've read Blindsight (Watts), A Deepness in the Sky (Vernor Vinge), Pushing Ice (Alastir Reynolds) and Under the Skin (Michel Faber). A friend of mine is trying to get me to read Atlas Shrugged (Ayn Rand). I'm about to read Geddy Lee's Biography. Happy Holidays.