The ODD Science of Oppositional Defiant Disorder | Sci Guys Podcast

Kids can be difficult, sometimes so difficult that we slap a psychiatric label on them because we're not sure what else to do. Oppositional Defiant Disorder is one of those labels given to kids that behave so poorly that adults can't handle them. This week, we chat about the disorder, prisons, & the pros and cons of pathologising some human behaviours...
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References & Further Reading
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NB...
childmind.org/article/what-is...
www.psychologytoday.com/gb/co...
www.aacap.org/AACAP/Families_...
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/arti...
www.aafp.org/pubs/afp/issues/...
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@notcorry / @lukecutforth

[@SciGuys]

What’s your pet peeve?

[@freshwater5544]

That you have to say "I'm fine" when someone asks how you are if you don't want a conversation rather than "I don't want to talk about it"

[@pokemonfanthings4444]

I have way too many

[@utuelias]

Honestly the same as Corry's. I was talking with my friend the other day about a subject I've been researching a lot recently (read: hyperfocusing on this whole summer), and she was doing what in my ears sounded like explaining the thing to me. I had to constantly remind myself that it's not that she's underestimating my knowledge, it's just her way of processing things (and kinda telling them to herself). But it always gets me.

[@miekehugo1712]

Psych student hear! In South Africa, at least (though I think it applies to APA standards), It is illegal to diagnose a minor with Antisocial personality disorder, due to the stigma. So while most children grow out of ODD, those who do not, upon reaching adulthood, usually are reassessed and if their anti-social traits endured, they will typically be rediagnosed with another disorder, often a personality or severe mood disorder. Since children develop, one cannot diagnose them with personality illnesses, which is why ODD is there. Almost like a "lets just keep our eyes out" type of thing

[@CavinLee]

That’s interesting as someone with ODD (18) I’ve felt like something is up mood wise.

[@deadlymelody27]

Well i think it goes for most personality disorders, i know in the UK they wont diagnose anyone under 16 or 18 (im not sure on the boundaries) with any form of personality disorder, but maybe its because you can change so much in your teen years that those sorts of conditions could just be part of teenage development (like for example emotional instability is fairly common in teenagers, but they wont all go on to have borderline/emotional unstable personality disorder). So i imagine its not just about the stigma but the fact that until adulthood there are aspects that could completely change (i would argue until probably 25 as the brain isnt developed til then but im not a neuroscientist or psychologist so maybe at 18 they generally do know).

[@busbuddylove]

What I learned in abnormal child psych is that ODD can *sometimes* progress to something called conduct disorder (which is diagnosed mostly in adolescence), and then conduct disorder can sometimes progress to antisocial personality disorder (which is meant to be diagnosed only after age 18). Basically, I was taught it was an age-range-based progression of diagnoses, and the treatment of ODD and CD are meant to prevent the kid from progressing to the more serious disorders that may come after it when they get older. In some ways, ODD is meant to be like a red flag indicating someone might be pre-CD, and CD is the flag indicating possible pre-ASPD. However, I totally agree that ODD seems like it’s often just a symptom of some other issue like ADHD and can be super misunderstood. And, disclaimer that this info is off the top of my head from a class I took like three years ago lol

[@InvisibleYet]

Not gonna lie, at first I thought you were gonna cover this without being critical and without mentioning that this disorder can be used to put the "blame" on the child rather than on the parenting style or other problems at home, but you can always trust Corry to come through! While I don't wanna say ODD is absolutely not a thing, people tend to not view children as people and will simply say they're just acting out instead of seeing a child that is trying to deal with their problems or emotions. Also loved that you mentioned gentle parenting; it makes so much sense to teach children the actual consequences instead of choosing a punishment totally unrelated to what they did. Often it just leads to kids learning they just cannot do this thing in front of their parents or not coming to their parents when they have a problem in fear of being unreasonably punished for it. Great episode as always!

[@emmi3785]

I think, adulting is way easier that being kid/teenager. Yes, problems can be "bigger", but at least most people, you work to solve those issues, are mostly somewhat rational and not horrible. As child you are not developed and all your peers are the same. Also, as a child you have not much saying on who are around you. What a terrible mess it was to be a sensitive kid in a small town stuck in the same circles for years and years. I still carry traumas from that time and have needed years of therapy to get somewhat healthy again (from depression and anxiety disorder). Now, finally, I'm not scared of people bullying me if I show my true feelings. Or "friends" suddenly start acting mean just because they want to impress other friend etc. That is past. And if somebody now would do that, it would be them- problem. Not me-problem. I am happily vulnerable. If somebody is willing to use my vulnerability against me, then they can do that. Luckily, most are not that kind of people, and vulnerability have been a great thing.

[@joegrosstephanjr4274]

my pet peeve is pretty similar to Luke’s first pet peeve about people dancing around a point in conversation. I’m horrible at social cues so usually I don’t pick up on the fact that they are trying to say something else and it really aggravates people (or I’ll figure it out way later and have no way to respond to the real issue they were talking about.

[@gpmetheny]

I think it's really notable that this is often diagnosed in *school aged children*, especially given the disproportionate comorbidity with ADHD. Parenting an ADHD child (whether they're diagnosed or not) is extremely challenging, but as a parent you find a lot of adaptations that help your kid. Then you send them off to school with new kids, new adults with probably very different expectations, and who in my experience lack sufficient training for dealing with neurodiverse kids. It's no surprise that there would be some defiance happening in this transition from spending time with one or several primary caregivers, to a chaotic school environment.

[@vynneve]

That pet peeve by Cory i connect with sooooooo much. That's probably my #1 lol. If i can I always cut the Convo at the start saying "ya i know that, did you know also..." Try to move it to something we both may have some knowledge about or I do, as a new jumping off point for the Convo.

[@nissutobor9078]

This was a very personal episode for me, being someone who was diagnosed with ODD as a teenager. For the record, I do think ODD is a real thing, but when I was diagnosed, I felt that it was a sort of catch all... A scapegoat so to speak. I didn't have the understanding of myself at the time to put my finger on why, but I think it also gave me a false sense of security knowing that I had gone to a psychologist, and they didn't catch anything else (nor was I clued in on the fact that its a strong indicator that something else is going on). That is, until I hit my 30s, and had a breakdown (after covid). I was severely depressed, to a barely functioning level. Thats when I started seeing a therapist again, and it really reinforced my perception that my child psychiatrist kindof brushed me under the rug. And thats where we circle back to the "Better explained by other conditions" part. My therapist diagnosed me with ADHD, which really should have been considered in childhood because my sister has ADHD. And I'm also transgender... Which IMO was 1000% ignored at the time given that my parents had very explicit signs, and I had even talked with my child psychologist about my dysphoria, not necessarily using those terms, but very explicitly... "I have thoughts of wanting to be a girl". It's difficult for me not to hold some anger over this, pondering how differently my life could have been if these two things were caught/ acknowledged in childhood. As one whole imagine, I suffer from a lot of other issues stemming from my dysphoria and ADHD... Internalized shame, low self esteem, substance abuse issues, depression, social anxiety... The lot of it. I suppose what I'm ultimately trying to say is, I appreciate this episode, as it helped to put a lot of things into perspective for me.

[@spookyputhy7991]

It's really hard sometimes as a parent to leave behind these more toxic parenting methods especially when having neurodivergent children. The stroller thing was really relatable cause my daughter did the same thing a couple times, stomping her feet down so the stroller stops and she falls out and hurts herself. I get really frustrated cause I've told her multiple times not to do it or else she'll get hurt, but she also has adhd so she's extremely impulsive and i also have adhd so i impulsively express frustration. i at least try my best to control myself and still hold her and comfort her and explain to her thats why i told her not to do that but I feel bad getting angry cause i know kids with adhd don't mean to be so impulsive then parents get frustrated and use these less healthy methods, make kids feel shame for their impulsive actions, and these kids experience this way more than nuerotypical kids so it makes sense why they would more often develop rejection sensitivity, insecurity and ODD. I try to comfort myself by remembering at least I'm aware and try to center my parenting with more empathy but my daughters dad is much more authoritarian and doesn't quite listen to me when I tell him being more harsh just makes it worse and he lectures me about needing to be "consistent" between the two households which is a valid concern to some degree but I dont believe in being authoritarian so the inconsistency probably diesnt help. So she has adhd, one parent is hugging the line of poverty (me), having separated parents can cause certain types of inconsistencies, she experiences one authoritarian parent, she struggles socially in school and other factors that are outside her control or even my control all make her really at risk of ODD symptoms and it just sucks. ODD wouldn't need to be a category of "disordered behavior " if parents received more support, had more access to therapies, and more time to actually give more focus on molding their parenting methods to their child's individual needs (also public school systems being more suited to teaching kids with more diverse learning styles and such).

[@argusfleibeit1165]

I was going to say to these idealistic and naive young men, that it might have been the fourth time that day, after many days in a row, that the kid pulled that stunt. If the mom lost her shit, they don't know what she is dealing with. She might have been sweet and comforting the first few times, but the kid keeps it up for whatever reason. Should she stop taking him on walks? Should she make the kid get out of the stroller, even if he can't walk very far, or runs away repeatedly into traffic? Will they see the kid in a harness on a leash, and condemn the mom for walking her kid like a dog? I think raising kids must be exhausting, and I don't think enough people are aware of it until it's too late. You can't return them to the pet store if you find out you're in over your head.

[@spookyputhy7991]

@@argusfleibeit1165 I was definitely not trying to imply that they were being idealistic and naive. I was more trying to add the the conversation with my personal experience being neurodivergent making me deeply empathize with my daughter while also making it difficult to manage my own impulses and the internal struggles it comes with. Ya I agree that we shouldn't judge parents too harshly depending on the situation but I did clarify that I still comfort my daughter and hold her even if I reacted with some frustration. I try to remind myself I'm human and I cant always help reacting with the toxic parenting I've been conditioned with but I can recognize when I've been unreasonable and adjust my behavior even of I'm still feeling frustrated. I can work through my feelings at the end of the day, she can't. It is difficult but I appreciate these guys educating people about it and I think they did a great job so more parents can start being more mindful and break the cycles of toxic parenting methods across generations.

[@jessicatrimble1116]

My daughter was dx ADHD first and then ODD however, her odd dx was changed to DMDD. You can't be dx with both ODD and DMDD at the same time. Love listening to you Sci guys.

[@katherinewright92176]

My son who is 17 was diagnosed with ODD and aspergers when he was 13. He is very smart and has to have things done they same way all the time.

[@argusfleibeit1165]

A diagnosis is not making an excuse or giving a pass. More than that in many locations, getting a diagnosis may give a parent access to counseling and help to learn parenting . The problem is, the world is not made for most of us. A child is learning to be a child at the same time an adult is learning to be a parent. Too many parents grew up with dysfunctional parents and ineffective parenting styles. If a kid is so disruptive that he gets the attention of the school, and their parent is given access to learn better parenting, it is a win-win. In too many locations the kid is just sent down the school to prison pipeline after constantly battling its way through school and making problems in the home, also affecting other children in the school and at home. Modern life is in no way natural. Just letting people bring up children willy-nilly with whatever bad ideas and screwed up personality they have will not result in the best outcomes for the child or society.

[@Natelch511]

Me as a mother of 7 children one of them highly ODD can say, there is many things you are right but as a mothere i also was not happy to label my son, but it was good to know what the matter is of this child and adjust my traditional educating when it comes to this child. Until then i was fighting educating him the same way i did all my other kids that by the way are successful in life. The lable helps for everyone come in contact with the child, to know in short, what his sensitive points are. I do think with years and with more capability to express themselves they start taking responsibility of there behaviour and therefore adults are less comen being odd but if they don't change there behaviour, for some reason, the will turn out to be narcisstic or any other social problem. For all the parents out there struggling with an odd child, my heart goes out for you❤ it is really tuff parenting!!!

[@b.e.a.n.s_]

Hey! I really love this podcast! I've only started listening a month or two ago, so idk if you have done this yet, but it would be really interesting if you guys did an episode of dissociative disorders? I have Depersonalization/derealization disorder (dpdr), and I would like to learn about other disorders like this! Thank you!!

[@emory1366]

They did an episode about that with dodie (ep 111)

[@b.e.a.n.s_]

@@emory1366 oh ok

[@danawork3904]

I think getting your child diagnosed with ODD could also be a parents way of saying "look, this is what's wrong with my kid, it's not my fault." At least in my experience, getting my troubled-child of a sister "diagnosed" seemed to be used more as an excuse for my parents on what's wrong with their kid than a path forward for my sister. Now she's an adult and barely functional but we're working on that.

[@louisallum5342]

A polite way to say you understand or know about that topic when someone is referring to it specifically a gp is like. Ah yes I am aware of this illness how do we treat it. Or yes I'm familiar with this subject and then insert what you want to know after. Unfortunately you'll have to interject but it won't be rude

[@jesseething]

please do a video on transactional analysis

[@jessicatrimble1116]

I read for DMDD (don't remember about ODD) that ADHD meds can help with the DMDD symptoms and therapy and meds combined is good for ADHD....and I'm sure for other things as well.

[@JennaGetsCreative]

This comment may simply be too early but it's less that kids grow out of ODD and more that they get a better diagnosis as a teen or adult. Edit 1- (Apparently this disappeared) I agree most people in prison have the potential to be rehabilitated (if they even deserve to be there in the first place) and that should be prison's purpose. There are certainly unforgivable crimes and a tiny number of people who are just too dangerous to let out into society, but most people in prison just need help. Edit 2- I'm a parent. I do every once in a while "put my kid in her room" when she's bad (more often actually she storms off there like she's punishing me) but going to her room isn't the punishment. It's the opportunity to calm down so we can talk. I don't understand parents who just leave their kid in lengthy time out or grounding.

[@jen_chaos]

My absolute pet peeve is people being bigots and DEFENDING IT!!!😤 Edit: Also when people insist they have experience in a subject I know much more about and they end up spreading harmful misinformation to other people that is hard to debunk.🙎‍♀️ And all the “-isms”: (ableism, racism, sexism, etc) even coming from well intentioned but poorly informed people.

[@jgbreezer]

#83 was Many Worlds and Quantum Realms, with Noah Finnce; I can't think how anyone would have said that some set of people don't count in that one (unless its about us all not mattering in this world cos another reality is "real", or something, would have maybe been an off the cuff jokey comment?). Anyway...

[@pokemonfanthings4444]

👏🏾👏🏾👏🏾

[@minoyd]

My pet peeve is that ODD is extremely disproportionately diagnosed in people of color, children, and individuals with cognitive impairments, the common thread between all of which is having your personal autonomy, needs, wants, and preferences steamrolled for your entire life. My pet peeve is basically that the Mental Health Industrial Complex is just an offshoot of the Prison Industrial Complex. Reasonable reactions to any circumstance can be pathologized in order to subdue anyone who doesn't just lie down and roll over for the state. And people with limited cognitive capabilities face the most police brutality of any demographic. I'd be vindictive too.

[@ElizabethTrueblood]

What happened to Jamp?

[@SciGuys]

Jamp is no longer with Sci Guys!

[@catStone92]

I beat Luke! But only 'cause he said he had the answer rather than answering XD

[@beebopbug]

correct me if they've already done this but I'd love to see them do a video on the growing research on the link between being trans/gender nonconforming and being on the autism spectrum. as a trans nonbinary autist it's hard to find unbiased info on it and I don't have the skills to understand the results sections of most studies so I'd really love to see y'all cover it :-)

[@charliev4156]

Episode 176- autism and gender dysphoria

[@beebopbug]

@@charliev4156 omg no way thank you so much :)

[@jaybirdvlogs7279]

ok this pet peave makes me sound like a jerk but it annoys me when people say "oh you can't have that becuase you're vegetarian" because like, no, I COULD have it, I just don't want to. saying I "can't" have it implies being vegetarian was forced on me. If I wanted to a massive BBQ rn I could! I just don't want to. If I did go do that, I wouldn't be a vegetarian, but I could in theory do it. haha this makes me sound like a jerk lol.

[@colinernest8430]

How come Jamp hasn't been in the most recent episodes?

[@breeanneosuileabhain2036]

I was just about to post the same question. Is he on vacation, hiatus, or no longer on the podcast?

[@losronjos]

@@breeanneosuileabhain2036 this was also asked on the previous episode and the answer was "Jamp is no longer a part of Sci Guys"

[@colinernest8430]

@@losronjos oh that sucks. I enjoy his presence

[@Big_Christian999]

@@losronjos I hope he's still part of Sci Guys. I think he brings a lot of fun and laughs to the podcast

[@Abigael_Zed]

I agree! He was so much fun to have around & these blokes are just carrying on as if there hasn't been a major change in everything about this podcast.

[@luthientinuviel9942]

You didnt find info on ODD in adults because it isn't the diagnosis used. Between ages 12-18 if behaviors continue and worsen where the law is now getting involved it is termed Conduct Disorder. Beyond age 18 should it continue to progress the diagnosis of ASPD (antisocial personality disorder) is given. That doesn't mean antisocial in the colloquial sense but more like behavior against societal norms, manipulative and criminal behaviors, comorbidity with narcissistic PD. Your research is incomplete.

[@SciGuys]

You gotta remember that these episodes are released weekly, there’s not a huge amount of time to research each topic so necessarily the research is “incomplete” on every episode. We’ll likely do a future episode on ASPD!

[@selewin]

This felt a bid weird. kinda preaching that not everything needs to be pathologized (hope im writing that correcly). And by giving it a disorder it absolves some of the responsibility and thats not good. But then going on and saying we need to treat kids with more empathy because its not there fault because there in a difficult situation. But even with the asteriks of "i know parenting is hard" there was a long talk how you think people should parent. When neither of you are parents XD. Edit: NVM Just finished the final 4 min was thinking about the podcast before i realized i havnt finished it yet.

[@arloomahony1309]

My pet peeve is people biting their nails and the Kardashian’s :)

[@Kaltag2278]

My pet peeve is rude people. Be mad at whoever you're mad at, not me.

[@bellahoyle6565]

Fun fact! The adult version of ODD is essentially BPD. Source: Psychology student learned info from professors

[@freshwater5544]

I beat Luke!

[@Somebodyherefornow]

ah yes...the prefrontal cortex myth...